Misplaced Pages

I recognize that this user page belongs to the Misplaced Pages project and not to me personally. As such, I recognize that I am expected to respectfully abide by community standards as to the presentation and content of this page, and that if I do not like these guidelines, I am welcome either to engage in reasonable discussion about it, to publish my material elsewhere, or to leave the project.

My real name is Larry Pieniazek and I like LEGO(r) Brand building elements. Feel free to mail me with comments or concerns if you don't want to post.

• Here about a BLP that's persistently getting vandalized and you want me to semi protect it? See User:Lar/Liberal_Semi and I or one of my TPWs will get it.
• Here to leave me a message? Response time varies depending on where I'm active... Ping me if it's truly urgent, or find another admin.
• Here about accountability? see my accountability page.
  Note: The apparent listification of the category (it's back but may go away again) does not change my commitment to my recallability in any way

Please read the two blue boxes :).

Archives

Note: I archive off RfA thank yous separately, I think they're neat!
An index to all my talk page archives, automatically maintained by User:HBC Archive Indexerbot can be found at User:Lar/TalkArchiveIndex.

Request for arbitration filed

This is to let you know that I've filed a request for arbitration at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Scope of NLT concerning a case in which you have commented at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive560#Legal threats by Milomedes. I have not listed you as an involved party; should you, however, prefer to be considered involved, let me know and I'll add you to the list.  --Lambiam 12:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Arbcomm enforcement

Hi Lar. We have never met before but I saw your comments here about your hope that the arb comm enforcement for the I-P case would be applied evenly. It seems that there is a perception that it is not in fact being applied evenly. See here and follow the links there to the AE and ANI requests on the latest issue.

I'm sure you are aware of how the uneven application of these restrictions works to foster the perception among editors that there are one set of rules for one "side" (or for admins and their friends) and another for the "other" (mere editors, who were banned for no good reason, in my opinion, but that's another issue). The lack of clarity here has prompted many editors sanctioned to avoid editing altogether in fear of being swept up in sanctions. Perhaps you could help in clarifying the inconsistencies and ensuring all the animals on the farm are treated equally? Tiamut 10:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I am very concerned about uneven application, and about potential chilling effects of even the perception of uneven application. I'm not sure how much good I can do but I've commented on the premature close. I'd also point you to this WR thread if you were not already aware of it. Uneven application, or the perception of it even if unjustified, and closing ranks to defend the inner circle, or the perception of it even if unjustified, gives those who frequent sites like WR merely in order to take shots at WP the very ammo they need. ++Lar: t/c 13:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for expressing your opinion on the matter. Here's hoping the future will be more fair? My experience to date doesn't really lead me to be optimistic, but on the other hand, given that the only constant in life is change, there may just be a chance. Happy editing Lar. Tiamut 16:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Not sure it did any good. Apparently the bot archives threads on his talk page if they are older than 1 hour (!!!) when it comes by. That seems daft. ++Lar: t/c 18:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

It looks like it did some good, now that he's seen it. Weird those bots! It didn't seem to archiving at 1hr intervals earlier on. Looking at time stamps between comments in the section opened on Meteromaker shows that. But hey, these tech things never make sense to me. Anyway, thanks again and happy editing. Tiamut 20:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of MiszaBot is that it archives but once a day but the parm controls how old the oldest thread can be (measured by the newest comment in the thread). Happy editing! ++Lar: t/c 20:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

sock I suppose

Hi Lar, long time... As you may have noticed I just handled in all my brooms and made my already four month long wikibreak official, which may be a sign that I'm actually returning ;) Anyways, noticed these on my watchlist here , the edits are not very controversial I guess, but I strongly suspect this is yet another sock of sju hav (talk · contribs), rather obvious this one, as 7=sju in Norwegian. All the best, Finn Rindahl (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, long time as well... Hope life takes you nice places. The older user's contribs are too old at this point to draw meaningful conclusions, suspect it's best to just hope for the best. However I do see signs of new multiple account use. So I'm not sure what to do. Do you have time/interest in looking into the user's contributions under the multiple guises? I'd be inclined to block if they are problematic. LMK. ++Lar: t/c 18:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Alaska Road Commission

On September 6, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Alaska Road Commission, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

A request

Lar, if you don't stop posting snide remarks about me, I'm going to approach the ArbCom for relief. You've been asked many times to stop by several editors. There's no call for it, and I won't respond in kind. It's particularly depressing to see it extend to you lending support to a LaRouche editor who's trying to prevent the LaRouche bio from being improved (and in such a way that any reasonable person would see was an improvement). If you have a low opinion of me, just stay away from me, and I'll continue to do the same for you. Or we should seek private mediation, as I suggested in a recent e-mail to which you didn't respond. But the current one-way public sniping is not acceptable. SlimVirgin 05:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for stopping by and bringing your concerns forward. Let's unpack some of the key themes as I see them.

• "snide remarks about me" - The user raised a legitimate concern about free passes, or the perception of them. This is something I've been concerned about for a long time, and have commented about for a long time as well, in many contexts. "Free passes" for anyone is against the spirit of the wiki. Surely you agree that there may be a perception among some that some users do have free passes? (if not, see a few threads up, right here on this talk, for just one example of many) So, not a snide comment and not directed specifically at you. Not everything onwiki is about you, believe it or not. But let me apologise if you think it was directed specifically at you or was intended to be snide.
• " It's particularly depressing to see it extend to you lending support to a LaRouche editor who's trying to prevent the LaRouche bio from being improved" If answering a question is "lending support" in your view, I think you're not seeing things clearly. Perhaps you should step back from the conflict at that bio and leave it to uninvolved editors.
• "If you have a low opinion of me - My personal opinion of you is irrelevant. As should be yours of me. What matters to me is whether your actions bring harm to the project. If I think they do, I will speak out about it. I won't be constrained by any previous history we might have. Nor should you be.
• "just stay away from me, and I'll continue to do the same for you." - Our current difficulties started when you made a number of unjustified and unsupported allegations in an inappropriate manner in a number of venues, something which you were sanctioned by ArbCom for doing, and something for which you've never expressed any remorse, regret, or even acknowledgment that you erred in any way. It's ironic that now you want to stay away, as the damage you did with public invective was done long ago.
• "we should seek private mediation" - I don't see that as particularly useful yet, given that in our prior communications, you've not been willing to acknowledge that you erred in how you raised issues or how you approached conflict resolution. Mediation requires an honest willingness to start afresh. Perhaps at some point in the future, though, if you're now willing to acknowledge what you did was wrong? I remain hopeful. You can start the process by apologizing.

I hope that helps address your concerns. ++Lar: t/c 15:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Notes

1. quoting: The Committee reminds the users who brought the matter into the public arena rather than to a suitable dispute resolution process—in particular, SlimVirgin—that dispute resolution procedures rather than public invective remain the preferred course for addressing matters of user conduct.

Template:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America

Hi Lar- On your user page, could you update this template that has been renamed: "Template:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America" to Template:User WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America 2 ? I renamed it due to the fact that the original name should be a redirect to the project banner (as I found a few article talk pages that were using it, instead of {{NorthAmNative}}), as the userbox or messagebox should have the "user" word in it somewhere, and I'd like to redirect the original to the project banner. Thanks much! --Funandtrvl (talk) 05:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe I've made the change you suggested. If not, please advise. Thanks for letting me know of the need for a change. ++Lar: t/c 15:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again! --Funandtrvl (talk) 15:49, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Your post

The answer to your question is "no." --JohnnyB256 (talk) 11:48, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome. If you have any further thoughts on the DTCC article, pls give a shout. I've gone through the section and my notes are on the talk page.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 14:51, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Sister project interview

I think Casey Brown didn't have much time to do the interview for Meta, would you like to fill in? If so, head towards User:OhanaUnited/Sister Projects Interview/Meta. Feel free to add/remove/modify questions on that page. OhanaUnited 17:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have to admit I'm a bit baffled. I'll take a cut but some of those questions I don't know the answers to. ++Lar: t/c 20:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I've got your number.

Dear talk page watchers...(all 303 of you!), I've got your number. I don't know if I should be scared or flattered or creeped out, or what. :) Nifty tool. Note: you can see how many people are watching certain nonexistent RfA pages, too! ++Lar: t/c 02:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm one, but no worries. Cheers, Jack Merridew 04:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

304 now. ;) –Juliancolton |  05:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Please take a look

Hello Lar. I hope that you could please do me a favor and take a look at User talk:Rockpocket#Pit of despair (assuming that you don't know about it already!). Thanks so much. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. It seems a rather tangled situation but I'm not liking what I'm seeing so far. Charges of collusion are very serious and should not be made lightly. Nor should they be made in a way that drives editors away. I'm not sure how to proceed. ++Lar: t/c 18:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm even less sure than you about how to proceed. I'm unsure whether one should wait until charges are actually made, or not. Should more editors in leadership positions be made aware of it? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure. I would advise against canvassing a large number of editors. Instead I would suggest consulting a few with the specific question: "where is the best place to raise this issue", perhaps with a prefatory question of "what issue, if any, do you see here". Because something does seem troubling but I'm not sure how to articulate it. ++Lar: t/c 18:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I take your point about not canvassing. At the moment, I, myself, would prefer not to contact more editors until something more concrete emerges, but I'm glad that, at least, I've made you aware of it, so your eyes are on it. P.S.: If you know of anyone you would want to tell about it, please go right ahead. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I have made some other folk aware of this matter. One suggestion I got was Misplaced Pages:Third opinion as a possible resource to find some eyes that are not on either side of this issue and might give an objective evaluation of the situation. I'm afraid those eyes would not be mine. When I saw SlimVirgin's approach (for example this post by RockPocket and her response) it just feels a lot like browbeating or bullying to me. ++Lar: t/c 23:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that. I agree entirely with your analysis of those diffs: bullying until editors (and RockPocket is, I think, an admin) who challenge her POV just go away. Myself, bullies make me angry–but I'm trying not to edit angry or to escalate the situation more than what civil editing requires (sigh). As for 3O, I suppose there would be a question of whether the opinion sought would be on content (POV), or conduct. As a content-oriented alternative, I replaced the POV template on the article with a POV-check template, which I think offers something pretty similar to 3O. I'm not personally in a hurry to edit the page, and when I do, I am going to do it thoughtfully and with good sources, and we'll see what happens then. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I've made a comment there. I think there;s a chance fror an NPOV article despite what has already taken place. DGG ( talk ) 07:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Excellent. I'm loath to get directly involved for fear of changing the focus from the message to the messenger. One side issue: The NPOV tagging should be substantiated with a list of issues that need fixing, but it's a valid tagging in my view. ++Lar: t/c 07:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you. With DGG and also another editor, there is now starting to be some helpful viewing by fresh eyes. About Lar's point on tagging, I agree and understand that. I'm trying to be very careful to explain in the page talk what the issues are, and I agree that tagging without talk explanation is, in contrast, improper. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:34, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If I could just make a note here to thank you all for your comments and emails. I would like to reply to each of your personally, but I'm really busy that the moment. While I certainly am irritated with the unfair and untrue accusations made about me and Tryptofish, I don't feel I was bullied into avoiding this subject. Its simply that my professional circumstances are in the process of changing so that I will soon have more responsibilities and a higher profile. Although I certainly don't anticipate being at the centre of any AR issues myself, I have never made any secret of the fact that I chose to use animals in a professional capacity. Unfortunately my identity is no longer private (thanks to naiveté on my part as a newbie, and the habit of certain "critics" to take advantage of any slip up out every admin they can) and I now feel I will be in a position whereby someone could use that information to adversely affect me or - my greater concern - those I am now responsible for.

I initially thought my accuser was using this issue as leverage, which would be a form of bullying, I suppose, but I've since been assured that is not that case, which I accept. Nevertheless, that clarification does not really alter the bottom line that the risk exists and increases with further involvement in contentious articles on this subject. So I intend to stick by my decision and, while I am grateful for your concern, I would prefer if we could draw a line under this and all move on. I feel that the AR articles do need reasonable and experienced editors from all perspectives editing together to ensure they remain balanced, so I'm glad there has been some fresh eyes, and I hope you will continue to work together to improve these articles. I remain available to help behind the scenes if I can. Thanks again, and my apologies for using your talkpage, Lar, to make this statement. I hope the people that need to see it will, without causing too much additional drama. Rockpocket 19:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Pardon?

Note also this exchange (which I believe WMC cites as justification, below) - what are you talking about? William M. Connolley (talk) 16:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The very same section, I cited it as a diff, you cited it as a section heading. ++Lar: t/c 16:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

No, still don't get you. I'm not citing that as justification, just as useful discussion. The justification is the arbcomm decision. Oh, and aren't you supposed to put some kind of header on the page? The sock did William M. Connolley (talk) 16:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It's my belief, or was, that you were citing it as justification. I'm happy to clarify that you actually feel you aren't... but I confess in reading the arguments you're making there, it feels like you are citing it as justification. Could be wrong though. Thanks for the reminder about the page header. Do you think we need any NoFollows on any of these pages? ++Lar: t/c 16:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Lets talk here. You've said a number of things on the MFD that I find unhelp, or that appear to indicate a hasty or confused state on your part. How about: Because your fight to keep a page where you attack arbcom probably would come up at any re-RfA request. - I don't see that as relevant to the current deletion discussion. Why is it there? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Why do you want to keep the page? Forget the mechanical legalistic arguments, and just tell me why you think it's good for the wiki to have it around (that is, what does it do that you couldn't do with, say, a blog posting sharing your views that you could link to?). Then, after you've done that, why is it necessary to be written the way it is? Why personalise it by calling people fools? Why can't the page be refactored to make the case that there have been foolish or ill advised actions, without personalising matters? (hate the sin love the sinner I believe is the saying) I think when you answer those honestly and truthfully, you'll understand why I said what I did about re-RfAs... Further, please remember that I've been a strong critic of ArbCom myself in the past, and think that where things were done wrong, we should say so and say why. ++Lar: t/c 17:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

You've evaded my question. Sorry, no, you haven't evaded it, you've ignored it. Nonetheless, I will partially answer yours: why personalise it? Because individual persons have made these judgements. Here is another question for you to ignore: calling V is fool on a not-very-public-page is going to annoy no-one, if the claim is absurd and baseless. I think the irritation you feel is because the claim is by no means baseless. Now, compare that to the mudslinging Risker has been engaging in recently. Whilst perfectly civil, it was done effectively as an abuse of position just at the close of the case. And you don't care. Why not? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)