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This article was nominated for deletion on 27 January 2021. The result of the discussion was keep.

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NPOV dispute

Once again, I don't like where this is going. In three sentences, we have weasel words and we have pejorative terms coming from who knows where? Elizium23 (talk) 19:11, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I opted for brevity because the variety of groups referring to LGB Alliance as transphobic is quite extensive. Pull quotes are included in the citations and all the sources are accessible to read. Please be specific about which phrases you think are weasel words. Battleofalma (talk) 20:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

'Failed verification'

Hi

Both here and in a previous draft of the article almost the entire text save for two sentences have been removed for 'failed verification'. It would be helpful to be able to progress to understand what the editors @Elizium23: and @Power~enwiki: who removed the content mean by this. Is this referring to:

1. Not being able to find the information included in the article in the references
2. The editors do not think the references used are reliable
3. Something else

Thanks

--Trinkt der Bauer und fährt Traktor (talk) 20:19, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

None of the sources you have been using for this verify that the group is considered homophobic or biphobic. There have been many other examples of your use of sources that do not support the text as well as POV text and unreliable sources. This is evident at Draft talk:LGB Alliance and in the history of Draft:LGB Alliance. Crossroads 20:22, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

That isn't strictly true of all sources for this article, however. The Independent and The Guardian both document that various commentators (including Woman's Place UK) consider the LGB Alliance to be transphobic or "trans-exclusionist". Newimpartial (talk) 20:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Crossroads:

Thanks, please could you expand on a couple of your points to help with the discussion

• Could you define what you mean by 'verify'? Several of the sources quote people and groups describing the group as transphobic, biphobic and/or homophobic e.g 1, 2, 3
• Please could you tell me which of the sources you consider to be unreliable?

Thanks very much

--Trinkt der Bauer und fährt Traktor (talk) 20:34, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial, you appear not to have read my comment closely; I never denied that they've been called transphobic.

Trinkt, I just checked again and none of those three sources verify that this group has been called homophobic or biphobic. Persistently misrepresenting sources in a discretionary sanctions topic area will lead to a report at WP:AE. Considering how long you say you've been around, you know not to do that. Crossroads 20:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. I didn't read the edit closely enough. My bad. Newimpartial (talk) 20:57, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Crossroads:, these references which were included in the original draft say it explicitly Scottish National Party MP Mhairi Black tweeted: “It is absolutely homophobic to oppose LGBT+ people having the same legal rights as straight people.1, the LGB Alliance has been labelled homophobic and biphobic itself, 2. Thanks, --Trinkt der Bauer und fährt Traktor (talk) 20:54, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Removed Speedy-G10

I have removed the CSD-G10 tag. A newly created article that duplicates a draftified article does not meet the criterion, inconvenient as that may seem. Newimpartial (talk) 20:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial, are you an administrator? Elizium23 (talk) 20:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

The removal of speedy tags is not confined to administrators. Any editor who is not the creator of a page may do so. I did not create the page; in fact, removing the tag was my first edit to the article. Newimpartial (talk) 20:37, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Some available references

Here are some references available on LGB Alliance.

--Trinkt der Bauer und fährt Traktor (talk) 21:15, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

References

1. "New 'Irish' anti-trans 'hate group' believed to be a British import". GCN. 2020-10-27. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
2. Weaver, Matthew (2020-02-13). "Labour leadership contenders split over trans group pledge card". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2020-11-23.
3. Reid-Smith, Tris (2020-04-02). "LGBT+ people bid to stop anti-trans LGB Alliance getting charity status". Gay Star News. Retrieved 2020-11-23.
4. McCarty, Meghan (2020-04-02). "What's Current: Petition attempts to stop LGB Alliance from receiving charity status". Feminist Current. Retrieved 2020-11-23.
5. "Bisexual woman 'kicked out' of Glasgow queer club over LGB Alliance t-shirt reports incident to the police". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-01-21. Retrieved 2020-12-29.
6. "Trans teen in legal action over gender clinic wait". BBC News. 2020-11-23. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
7. Tominey, Camilla (2020-12-25). "Lesbians facing 'extinction' as transgenderism becomes pervasive, campaigners warn". The Telegraph. ISSN 0307-1235. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
8. "Trans teen in legal action over gender clinic wait". BBC News. 2020-11-23. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
9. "LGBT Foundation | LGBT in Britain - Trans Report". Retrieved 2021-01-10.
10. "LGBTQ+ Community Rallies Against Anti-Trans 'LGB Alliance'". www.out.com. 2019-10-25. Retrieved 2020-11-23.
11. "'LGB Alliance' group faces criticism for being transphobic". The Independent. 2019-10-24. Retrieved 2020-11-23.
12. Dazed (2019-10-29). "Activists are protesting a group that wants to drop the T from LGBT". Dazed. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
13. "Labour leadership contenders split over trans group pledge card". the Guardian. 2020-02-13. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
14. "LGB Alliance launch insidious email campaign to encourage schools to pull out of vital anti-LGBT+ bullying initiative". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-11-17. Retrieved 2021-01-01.
15. "Mark Smith: The views of LGB Alliance are worrying - but far from extreme". HeraldScotland. Retrieved 2020-11-23.
16. Oldereide, Andréa (January 25, 2020). "The LGB Alliance's controversial views on trans-rights". Out News Global. Archived from the original on March 17, 2020. Retrieved March 17, 2020.
17. "Trades Union Congress, with 5.5 million members, comes out for trans rights while condemning LGB Alliance". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-09-17. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
18. "Lesbians denounce LGB Alliance | Gscene Magazine - What's on in Gay / LGBTQ Brighton". 2020-12-30. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
19. Li, Emma. "LGB Alliance doesn't seem very LGB at all..." Retrieved 2020-11-23.
20. W-K, Edie. "YouTuber smashes $69,420 goal for trans charity Mermaids in non-stop Donkey Kong 64 Stream". Checkpoint. Archived from the original on 20 January 2019. Retrieved 20 January 2019.
21. McWhertor, Michael (20 January 2019). "How Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wound up on a Donkey Kong 64 Twitch charity stream". Polygon. Archived from the original on 21 January 2019. Retrieved 21 January 2019.
22. Moore, Matt (20 January 2019). "Hbomberguy raises over $100,000 for Mermaids by playing Donkey Kong 64 for 24 hours". Gay Times. Archived from the original on 18 April 2019. Retrieved 21 January 2019.
23. "Gamer Hbomberguy hands funding row charity Donkey Kong boost". BBC News. 22 January 2019. Archived from the original on 11 July 2019. Retrieved 23 January 2019.
24. Kent, Emma (21 January 2019). "YouTuber sacrifices sleep to stream Donkey Kong 64, raises $340k for trans kids". Eurogamer. Archived from the original on 20 June 2019. Retrieved 21 January 2019.
25. Hawking, Tom (22 January 2019). "How a 57-hour Donkey Kong game struck a blow against online toxicity". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 18 July 2019. Retrieved 22 January 2019.
26. Moyse, Chris (21 January 2019). "YouTuber Hbomberguy's Donkey Kong 64 marathon raised over $340,000 for trans youth". Destructoid. Archived from the original on 22 April 2020. Retrieved 21 January 2019.
27. Evans, Mel (21 January 2019). "Hbomberguy ends marathon 57-hour Donkey Kong session after raising $340,000". Metro. Archived from the original on 18 April 2019. Retrieved 21 January 2019.
28. Patrick Harvie (21 January 2019), Online Gamer, Harry Brewis, Fundraising for Mermaids UK, Scottish Parliament, Motion S5M-15504
29. "Attitude Pride Awards: The gamer who raised hundreds of thousands for an under-fire trans youth charity". Attitude. 5 July 2019. Archived from the original on 28 July 2019. Retrieved 28 July 2019.
30. "LGB Alliance warned by advertising watchdog over 'potentially misleading' claims about gender recognition laws". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-02-06. Retrieved 2020-12-29.
31. "Neo-Nazis and homophobes are among the supporters of the 'anti-trans' group LGB Alliance". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-04-03. Retrieved 2020-12-29.
32. "LGB Alliance founder says there shouldn't be LGBT clubs in schools because of 'predatory gay teachers'". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-01-23. Retrieved 2020-12-29.
33. "JK Rowling met with tidal wave of anger after using her enormous platform to send string of 'hateful' anti-trans tweets". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-06-07. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
34. "LGB Alliance co-founder displays basic ignorance about HIV prevention drug PrEP". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-01-30. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
35. "Mr Gay England's first trans finalist Chiyo Gomes targeted by vile LGB Alliance attack. Fortunately, nobody was having any of it". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-10-13. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
36. "Trans teen in legal action over gender clinic wait". BBC News. 2020-11-23. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
37. "Justice Committee, Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill, Submission From LGB Alliance" (PDF).{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
38. "LGB Alliance shamelessly use Boris Johnson's hospital stint to spread 'propaganda' about trans rights". uk.news.yahoo.com. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
39. "Transgender people in sport | Research | Loughborough University". www.lboro.ac.uk. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
40. "Anti-trans group LGB Alliance just released a pop single and we honestly don't know where to start". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-01-15. Retrieved 2020-12-29.
41. "LGB Alliance Ireland launches to fight 2015 gender law and - shock - has nothing to say about advancing LGB rights". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-10-27. Retrieved 2021-01-01.
42. "Activist instrumental in the launch of the LGB Alliance linked to anti-abortion and anti-LGBT+ hate groups". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-06-03. Retrieved 2021-01-01.
43. "LGB Alliance fundraising page ripped down – twice – after 'violent and abusive' language and campaign of abuse against gay MP". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-04-30. Retrieved 2021-01-08.
44. Development, PodBean. "Resistance Radio - Guest: Graham Linehan". resistanceradioprn.podbean.com. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
45. "Father Ted writer Graham Linehan compares the trans movement to Nazism". inews.co.uk. 2018-12-12. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
46. "Graham Linehan under fire for comparing trans activism to Nazism". Attitude.co.uk. 2018-12-13. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
47. "Mr Gay England's first trans finalist Chiyo Gomes targeted by vile LGB Alliance attack. Fortunately, nobody was having any of it". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-10-13. Retrieved 2021-01-04.
48. "LGB Alliance founder defends working with anti-abortion, anti-LGBT+ Heritage Foundation in resurfaced tweets". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-08-21. Retrieved 2020-12-29.
49. Evans, Martin; Walsh, Joani (2019-03-21). "First person prosecuted for transgender hate crime says it is a waste of police time". The Telegraph. ISSN 0307-1235. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
50. "Stonewall founder 'doesn't get' how a married mixed-sex couple can identify as queer". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-12-10. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
51. "Tory MP pledges support for anti-trans LGB Alliance while doubling down on opposition to equal marriage". PinkNews - Gay news, reviews and comment from the world's most read lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans news service. 2020-04-22. Retrieved 2021-01-04.

Suggest you cross-reference these with reliable sources to determine which are stronger/weaker. Battleofalma (talk) 12:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Heading "opposing gender identity instruction on schools" ?

The issue at stake is, is using the language preferred by the subject of the article correct for the heading, or should the heading use the same language that the independent, reliable sources use in designating the policy in question. My own opinion is that WP:NPOV requires that the RS language be used, but obviously opinions differ, and consensus is required. Newimpartial (talk) 01:52, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

You are deflecting from the point; the language preferred by the subject is not relevant either way, nor is what the policy as a whole has been called by irrelevant sources. That this group opposes "LGBTQ+" education is 100% unsourced and your WP:Original research. Stick to what sources say the LGB Alliance opposes. Saying "gender identity" isn't even POV; it is exactly what they oppose in education. Why obfuscate that? Crossroads 05:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I know that OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't a positive policy, but the usual practice on WP is to use the generally-held, NPOV designations for what pressure groups oppose rather than their own biased language; I will wait for others to weigh in on this before trying to fix it. In the mean time, I have tried to reduce the POV language within the section. Newimpartial (talk) 12:19, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I mostly agree with Newimpartial here. We should follow the language used by the reliable sources. To adopt the preferred language of a pressure group into Misplaced Pages's own voice is to accept and tacitly endorse the ideological baggage that it carries. That is not a neutral approach. When we write about, say, white supremacist organisations, to pick a rather extreme example for the purpose of clear illustration, we do not credulously adopt their preferred terminology and euphemisms (e.g. "race realism", "white genocide", etc) when speaking in Misplaced Pages's own voice. Instead we explain that they use these terms, and what they actually mean, referenced to reliable sources. The same general approach should apply here. Getting the specifics right might be tricky but the principle here is not. Crossroads is right that we cannot say something like "opposes "LGBTQ+" education" without RS sources to support it but with valid sources we absolutely can. And, yes, if that is what the majority of reliable sources say then it can and should take precedence over the group's own claims to the contrary, although we should still note that they deny it or describe it differently. --DanielRigal (talk) 16:17, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we disagree that much. I never argued to adopt the group's language for its own sake. The whole problem is that there is no source saying 'the LGB Alliance opposes LGBTQ+ education', so Misplaced Pages can't make that claim. Simple as that. And it's not correct to compare "gender identity" to false racist euphemisms. "Gender identity" is not a euphemism but a mainstream term and precisely identifies what they oppose. I see no reason to obfuscate this. Crossroads 06:10, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

@Newimpartial and Crossroads: I am responding to a request at WP:RFP for full protection of this article due to the disagreement between the two of you. You haven't reached the level of actual edit warring yet, but you are both established editors and know better than this. I am glad to see you are discussing here; this is a gentle reminder to keep that up until consensus or compromise is reached, and not to revert each other in the meantime. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:46, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

References removed?

How do we feel about this edit? I was thinking about partially reverting it as it removes several references but I wasn't sure how much to restore or how best to do it. Maybe it was somewhat overcited before but the references seem valid and the removal seems overdone. Maybe we want some of those references back? Maybe they should be moved into the body and out of the intro? What do we think is best? --DanielRigal (talk) 22:05, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

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