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| * '''Redirect''' to ]. The phrase seems to be commonly used (i.e. a searchable term) to refer to the criticism of human rights abuses in Belarus and already appears several times in the human rights article. ] (]) 12:26, 17 June 2021 (UTC) | * '''Redirect''' to ]. The phrase seems to be commonly used (i.e. a searchable term) to refer to the criticism of human rights abuses in Belarus and already appears several times in the human rights article. ] (]) 12:26, 17 June 2021 (UTC) | ||
| * '''Redirect''' I support {{u|Qwaiiplayer}}'s, suggestion. I think it is a sensible solution. If there's a consensus for it, I would seek to incorporate the article's material there. The only issue that remains ambiguous with regards to that option is which, if any, variants should also redirect there, e.g.: ], ], ]. --] (]) 15:33, 17 June 2021 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 15:33, 17 June 2021
Europe's last dictatorship
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The term "Europe's last dictatorship" is commonly used term for the country of Belarus, ruled by "Europe's last dictator" (Alexander Lukashenko). So there are two possibilities what this article could be about:
- Dictatorship in Belarus, in which case it would be a POVFORK of Belarus#Politics, human rights in Belarus, etc.
- The phrase "Europe's last dictator(ship)", in which case it fails WP:GNG. The article creator noted " It is of course highly unlikely that there exist secondary sources discussing in depth the fact that Belarus is commonly referred to as "The Last Dictatorship in Europe" and that Lukashenko is referred to as "The Last Dictator in Europe" (although you never know)." I was not able to find anything more substantive than mentions that in various RS that this is a common moniker for Belarus.
Currently the article reads like a dictdef with various uses of the term listed mostly cited to primary sources. I propose that the redirect to Belarus be restored; this phrase is mentioned in that article. (t · c) buidhe 18:03, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Belarus-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 18:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
What Buidhe fails to mention is that this is an ubiquitous term, practically synonymous with Belarus/Lukashenko. There is a very brief summary about this term under Belarus#Elections and under Alexander_Lukashenko#Second_term_(2001–2006) it is also very general. It is not a POVFORK any more than the article outposts of tyranny are POVFORKs. This is how Western media and politicians have very clearly come to label Belarus/Lukahshenko over a period of two decades. The article clarifies this history and can be interlinked from the Belarus and Lukashenko articles. It is much more trouble to maintain sections to address this in two separate articles. By having an article, the concept stays independent of later possible regimes. Consider also what people find if they google the terms. Finding an article with context is helpful. I can confidently say that this term is being translated and used in media in several Western and non-Western countries. Buidhe also twists my words, the two books mentioned are of course about how Belarus/Lukashenko are the last dictator/ship in Europe. The frequency and consistency in the use of the terms make them notable. --Jabbi (talk) 19:33, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Notability isn't related to commonality. My objection is mainly based on lack of sufficient coverage in reliable secondary sources to meet WP:GNG. The books are about Belarus, not about this phrase. (t · c) buidhe 20:14, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- I think you have too literal an interpretation of notability. This article is about a term or a concept that's been applied to both a state and the head of that state. Similar to Outposts of tyranny like I have already mentioned, which has then even less notability than this article going by your guideline, or axis of evil, Reagan's evil empire. The former are examples of American political rhetoric whereas this one, although originating from America, has been embraced it seems by most Western cultures. --Jabbi (talk) 20:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - There has been a contentious history around this title. See Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2012_August_30#Europe's_last_dictatorship and Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2019_October_15#Europe's_last_dictatorship. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:54, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - I concur with the nominator that this article does not establish general notability for the term. This has been discussed in the past. Not much has changed. (Tragically, not much has changed in Belarus either.) Robert McClenon (talk) 22:54, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - This has been created in both article space and draft space, which is sometimes done in order to game the system. See also Draft:Europe's last dictatorship. If this page is deleted, the draft should also be deleted. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:56, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- Comment This is a fairly commonly used phrase, similar in kind to Sick man of Europe or Least of the Great Powers. I think it might pass WP:WORDISSUBJECT as such. I'll have to look into it some more before I make up my mind about it. TompaDompa (talk) 23:47, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
- I haven't found sources that discuss the term itself as such, so the argument to keep is fairly weak. However, since it is such a commonly used phrase, it is a plausible search term and should at minimum redirect somewhere. Keeping in mind that per WP:RNEUTRAL redirects need not be neutral, I don't have any strong opinions about the target. Politics of Belarus, mentioned below, might be one option (at time of writing it explains the context for the term in the WP:LEAD, which is handy). The suggestion below to create the article dictatorship in Europe is another possibility. TompaDompa (talk) 10:31, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. Even the title violates WP:NPOV. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 01:39, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
- Comment No more NPOV than 'axis of evil' or 'sick man of Europe' mentioned above. Besides, if the article is about a derogatory term, how would you avoid reflecting that in the title? I don't think that is a reason to delete. --DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:52, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- The existence of other articles violating NPOV doesn't mean that it's fine to ignore the fundamental WP principles. It's possible to rewrite an article in a more balanced way, but it's unlikely that it will remain like that. Such articles are always biased. The former US president used even stronger words referring to several other countries. They may appear published here as well if we don't enforce NPOV. Dr.KBAHT (talk) 19:30, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Just jotting down my thoughts while I try to make up my mind about this... I've no doubt the term (or variants of it) is widely used, but I don't know that it has been much discussed in secondary RS. It's also not entirely clear what the term actually is — "Europe's last dictator" or "...dictatorship", "last dictator of Europe", etc. — and if the term is uncertain, that might suggest it's not fully established. On the other hand, would I expect to come to WP and be able to find out about the term, its background and origins? Yes, I think I would; and if I found nothing, I'd be surprised and disappointed even. If I only found a redir to Belarus, that would help me understand what the term refers to, but not how it came about etc. On the other hand, could this be covered in the article on Belarus? Yes, it could, and already is, so this could be considered something of a fork. Tricky... --DoubleGrazing (talk) 06:20, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- Delete The cited sources seem to be mentions of the term, or discussion of the persona and role, but not discussion of the term. I support a Misplaced Pages article on the concept of dictatorship in Europe and some of this content could go into such an article, but the sources do not back a stand-alone article profiling this title, term, or word choice. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:15, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
- Delete aside from the OR, SYNTH and COATRACK problems; everything appropriate covered by this concept can be quite reasonably incorporated into the NPOV-titled articles Politics of Belarus and Elections in Belarus. The term has no meaning per se outside of those articles. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 00:12, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: While a straight head count of the numbers suggests a "delete" close, there's a significant minority making an argument for a redirect, which I'd like to see discussed more.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ritchie333 10:01, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect to Human rights in Belarus#International_criticism_of_human_rights_in_Belarus. The phrase seems to be commonly used (i.e. a searchable term) to refer to the criticism of human rights abuses in Belarus and already appears several times in the human rights article. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 12:26, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect I support Qwaiiplayer's, suggestion. I think it is a sensible solution. If there's a consensus for it, I would seek to incorporate the article's material there. The only issue that remains ambiguous with regards to that option is which, if any, variants should also redirect there, e.g.: Europe's last dictator, Last dictator of Europe, Last dictatorship in Europe. --Jabbi (talk) 15:33, 17 June 2021 (UTC)