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Regards ] (]) Regards ] (])

::{{re|Apaugasma}} This isn't the first time it's happened either, on the Awdal page here ] he removed sourced edits without reason and manipulated sources just as he did on the Djibouti pages. He also did the same on the Somali Region page here ] this is despite being asked on the talk page to make sure he adds sources before editing. Unfortunately, ] simply wishes to edit in a partisan manner with no regards for the accuracy and quality of the pages. Since Arbitration began he made over 30 edits without using the Talk pages, this is a repeated violation which doesn't look like will stop without action.
] (])


===Result concerning Dabaqabad=== ===Result concerning Dabaqabad===

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    ZScarpia

    ZScarpia is warned against using subpar sources, anywhere on the project, to discuss living or recently deceased persons. Nableezy is cautioned to keep to their promise about moderating their tone. Will log. El_C 13:29, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning ZScarpia

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Hippeus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:39, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    ZScarpia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBPIA4#ARBPIA General Sanctions (standard discretionary sanctions).

    I looked into ZScarpia following a blog post by David Collier from 23 September 2021 that was brought to my attention. I disagree with Collier in general, and with much of the specific blog post, however I was concerned by Collier detailing how ZScarpia smeared him on a Misplaced Pages talk page using extremely dubious sources and I decided to probe deeper into this aspect. I have thoroughly vetted this particular claim by Collier, and uncovered additional and systematic use of this very dubious blog by ZScarpia. ZScarpia's posting of false smears against a living he is in a feud, in regards to Palestine/Israel, requires attention.

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 13:21, 28 August 2021 Accusing living person (David Collier) of "is also suspected of being associated with the GnasherJew "crew"", using one source (Jewish News) that does not mention Collier at all and three sources that are beyond dubious and are known for antisemitism. This violates the Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons policy. Source context:
      1. https://dorseteye.com/i-give-you-david-collier/ The Dorset Eye, little known site other than being infamous for: this post which led to the suspension of a politician who shared this apparent murder threat. ( )
      2. https://twitter.com/socialistvoice/status/1104051361447059456 - Twitter of SocialistVoice run by an individual expelled from Labour for his statements, which include language such as "Jewish companies" and "Jewish blood" (in relation to Tesco and Marks & Spencer
      3. https://azvsas.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-lies-and-deceit-of-david-collier.html Worst for last, blog post by Tony Greenstein who was expelled from Labour for anti-Semitism and for whom a high court determined that 'notorious antisemite' is not libel when used to describe him (Greenstein declared bankruptcy after being order to pay legal fees to the Campaign Against Antisemitism, after losing the case he filed and and appeal).
    2. 15:15, 4 September 2021 On a BLP talk page, posting links to The Electronic Intifada (red list at WP:RSP) and Tony Greenstein's blog which is even worse as a counter source to The Times.
    3. 09:35, 2 September 2021 (+another copy: 09:36, 2 September 2021) Posting material in violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY, WP:NOTAFORUM.
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    ZScarpia indicated on 17:31, 28 August 2021 that Collier "is not a fan" of his.

    ZScarpia has a long history of using Tony Greenstein as a source on Israel, Jews, and related biographies and organisations :

    1. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive984#NOTFORUM at Talk:Campaign Against Antisemitism, discussion of a NOTAFORUM post by ZScarpia on a Jewish organization and resisting removal, ZScarpia linked to Tony Greenstein's blog on azvsas.blogspot.
    2. 04:13, 18 May 2020 use of tonygreenstein.com (twice!) for info on living persons.
    3. 10:30, 7 May 2019 use of Tony Greenstein's blog on azvsas.blogspot
    4. 13:12, 9 March 2019 same
    5. 18:16, 24 July 2016 same, other article.

    This list was compiled by searching for "azvsas.blogspot" and tonygreenstein.com in Misplaced Pages, ZScarpia is the sole user here posting these links recently.

    ZScarpia use of a blog by a person whom the UK legal system upheld the descriptor 'notorious antisemite' was legitimate viewpoint for posting forumish talk page smears on Jewish persons is unbecoming conduct.--Hippeus (talk) 20:39, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

    ARBPIA relevance (Selfstudier): Talk:Israel lobby in the United Kingdom, Talk:Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party, Talk:Jenny Tonge, Baroness Tonge, and Talk:Campaign Against Antisemitism all have Arab-Israeli conflict templates. Talk:David Miller (sociologist) probably should have a notice too, and the posted link to Greenstein's blog is conflict related (title: "The Union of Jewish Students is not a Cuddly Group of Fragile Jewish Students – it is the Israeli State on Campus – Dedicated to Defaming Opponents of Israeli Apartheid"). The posts at Talk:Denis MacShane and Talk:All-Party Parliamentary Group against Antisemitism are a posting of a 45 page ruling in which Israel is mentioned 107 times, boycott 44 times (against Israel), and (anti)"semiti*" 87 times. All of these posts fall within ARBPIA.--Hippeus (talk) 22:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


    • @Deepfriedokra and El C: the short version is that David Collier on his website complained that he was being smeared by ZScarpia in this diff, in which ZScarpia stated that: Collier is "suspected of being associated with the GnasherJew "crew"". This assertion is sourced entirely to dubious sources (and a RS that does not mention Collier or GnasherJew), including Tony Greenstein's blog. ZScarpia has been using Greenstein's blog in other talk pages, and I document other BLPTALK issues towards ARBPIA figures on the other side of the divide.--Hippeus (talk) 18:31, 26 September 2021 (UTC)


    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:ZScarpia&diff=prev&oldid=1046467703


    Discussion concerning ZScarpia

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by ZScarpia

    First, I'd like to acknowlege that I'm now aware of this case. A long list of allegations have been made and I'm wondering what word count restriction I face in responding to them?

    I'm assuming that I won't be allowed the time it would personally take me to work up a decent response in one go. To break things down, I think the best approach would be to address a particular editor's statements in turn, starting, probably, as the statements are presented in list form, with Levivich's.

    Just prior to raising this request, Hippeus went through a series of talkpages removing large chunks of my comments () in a manner which, I think, doesn't show his or her own editing in a good light. There was no attempt at discussion. A less belligerent editor might have actually have attempted to ask me what the purpose of my comments was before assuming that there was none. The deletions weren't signed, so there is no indication of who did the removals or when. My impression has been that comments should not be removed unless they very clearly break the rules, and even then, only if it serves to reduce disruption rather than increase it, yet the reasons supplied for, at least, the bulk of the removals have a pretty tenuous justification.

        ←   ZScarpia   16:21, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

    --- Levivich's Statement ---

    (Comments I made about David Collier seem to be of most concern, so, perhaps saving everyone's time and hopefully without trying everybody's patience, I'll address Levivich's first three points on their own. An opportunity to comment before the request is closed would be appreciated.)

    * Talk:Israel lobby in the United Kingdom: The two talkpage sections involved: .

    Prior to adding the first, 18 May 2020, comment I carried out Google searches to determine whether there was sufficient source evidence to state as a fact that Collier was part of the GnasherJew team or only that it was suspected. One source found was a Jewish News portmaneau webpage, whose lower part I read as describing Collier as a GnasherJew spokesman. I took the combination of a regular news source describing him thus along with other sources showing that it was believed that he was a member of the team, and why, as fairly watertight justification for describing him as part of the team on the talkpage. I could not find a way of providing a link for the lower part of the webpage separately. Using the original link I supplied now only causes the top section to be displayed. What I think was the lower part is now available, on its own, at this link. Embarrassingly, due to focussing on a small number of paragraphs, rather than the complete article, it now appears to me that my interpretation was wrong and therefore the justification for stating that Collier was an actual, rather than suspected, GnasherJew member much weakened. The misinterpretation was, clearly, a failure on my part. By the 28 Aug 2021 comment, I decided to use a form of words that was easily verifiable, by simple Google searches, as a true factual statement, so wrote: "he is also 'suspected of being associated with the GnasherJew 'crew'."
    Levivich mentions that I removed the last part of the comment added on 15 June 2020, but omits when that occurred. That text was on the talkpage for 22 minutes altogether.
    Levivitch stated: "This is Contentious material...poorly sourced and not related to making content choices, and it's repeated." Though, due to a failure of interpretation on my part, the statement that Collier was an actual GnasherJew member turns out to be poorly sourced, the statement that he was suspected to be a member is easily verifiable as factually true. In my interpretation of the rule, easily verifiable factually true statements are not 'controversial' (if the meaning of 'controversial' is interpretted as anything that might upset the sensibilities of any particular editor, the description would apply generally right across the whole ARBPIA topic area). Collier himself was personally referred to in a cited source which was taken as reliable until the current set of eSharp editors were persuaded to disown it, making him a legitimate subject in the article. I provided the material very much with the intention that it would, at some point, affect the article content. Levivich is taking too narrow a view of what "making content choices" means I think.

        ←   ZScarpia   14:44, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

    I was very surprised by Rosguill's remark that my talkpage comment "seem(s) to truly be unrelated to content decisions." Levivich's argument is, I think, nonsense.
    As set out in the my talkpage comment and touched on in the articles on each, Denis MacShane and John Mann was, in the former case, and is, in the latter, a prominent UK Parliamentary supporter of Israel with roles on, among other bodies, the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Anti-Semitism. As such, they acted as witnesses for the complainant in the Ronnie Fraser versus University and College Union (UCU) tribunal case, an attempt to counter boycott activity within the union which spectacularly backfired, with all 10 complaints dismissed and the judgement calling the case "an impermissible attempt to achieve a political end by litigious means." The case was fairly widely covered in the press (try Googling, for example, the search term "ronnie+fraser"+union) and has a chapter devoted to it in David Hirsh's book "Contemporary Left Antisemitism". The Parliamentary witnesses, MaShane and Mann, were strongly criticised MacShane was "not surprised that the U.K.’s Employment Tribunal was incapable of grasping Fraser’s arguments," stating his "concern that (the) employment law judges were not people who were intellectually equipped to deal with the UCU’s action against Jews in the U.K. and in Israel."
    I think that there is a good case for including at least a small amount of detail about the case in the MacShane article, especially since his "antisemitism" activities are mentioned. My comment was an attempt to spark a discussion about including material and to help editors by providing a link to the judgement document itself and a full quotation from the section concerning MacShane and Mann.
    Levivich called my comment not only "a BLPTALK violation, but also a WP:NOTAFORUM violation." BLPTALK concerns itself with contentious BLP material on talkpages. What the tribunal judges had to say is not in dispute and why a full quotation from the judgement should be considered contentious is not clear to me. WP:NOTAFORM states that talkpages should not be used for general, forumy discussions of the topic. The purpose of my comment was not to start such a conversation.
    Levivich stated: "No editor is entitled to pick a quote out of some document and post it on an article talk page." The quote is of the complete part of a judgement mentioning MacShane which was mentioned in various sources. What exactly was the problem with posting it and what else, if anything, should I have included?
    Levivich stated: "ZScarpia never edited this article, and this is the only post ZScarpia made to this talk page." So why exactly is that a point worth mentioning at AE?
    Levivich stated: "This is using BLP talk pages as a forum to argue." Where exactly is the argument and why would you think that was my intention?
    Hippeus deleted the entire comment citing NOTAFORUM, BLPPRIMARY and BLPTALK. Hippeus should justify his reasons or else restore my comment. I've commented on the application of NOTAFORUM and BLPTALK above.

        ←   ZScarpia   19:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC) (Please ask me to stop if this has continued beyond the point of tedium)

    --- Inf-in MD's Statement---

    As mentioned on the talkpage, contrary to what Inf-in MD claims, the person being referred is dead and so it's a bit dubious that WP:BLP applies. It was being claimed that the writer in question, from a blog of whose material was being inserted in the article, is "an ideal source for her perspective regardless as to whether one is Zionist or anti-Zionist." The quote shows that anti-Zionists would probably disagree.     ←   ZScarpia   17:22, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    --- El_C ---

    @El C:: "I will stop using low quality sources for BLPs would have sufficed."

    Above I made an admission that I screwed up by misinterpreting what was supposed to be the reliable source providing verification for the statement about David Collier. The situation wasn't helped by a number of things. Firstly, what was displayed after clicking on the link for that source, a Jewish News webpage, changed. Secondly, the other links I provided were interpreted as having been provided as reliable sources for verification purposes, which was not actually the case. They had, in fact, been supplied to provide further information and back up the Jewish News article. I am aware of the BLP requirement for verifiability and neutrality on any page, including talkpages. In the response to Rosguill's last comment I have been working on, I was going to deal with solutions to the confusion my talkpage comments have clearly produced, such as making clear what the purpose of the links I had provided were.

    I came very late to the discussion, which had grown quite bulky by the time I arrived. I'm still struggling to get to grips with it. I haven't read everything let alone absorbed it. The last couple of days were spent trying to figure out how best to go about responding and then actually write something. Probably like everybody in my position (and, overall I haven't had much practice at it), you do kind of expect people to wait to hear both sides before coming to conclusions. What pain I might have been saved if only I'd been home earlier or away longer!

        ←   ZScarpia   21:48, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    @El C:: "ZScarpia, doesn't feel like you're getting it. When it comes to advancing any sort of BLP assertions of note, those kind of sources are strictly prohibited (and their usage otherwise is strongly discouraged irrespectively)."

    Thank you. That's clear and understandable. I'm sorry for the disruption and wasted time I caused.     ←   ZScarpia   00:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    I've now had more of a chance to fully get to grips with what was being said and to make sense of it.     ←   ZScarpia   12:18, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    @El C:: I hope that striking out and substituting new text resolves any BLP problem. Please just delete the whole comment otherwise.     ←   ZScarpia   18:02, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    --- Rosguill ---

    @Rosguill: Lest it look rude that I hadn't replied to your last comment, please know that I had been working on a response. One thing I'd like to mention which might help to explain some of the editing pecularities observed is that I have a personal rule not to directly edit the articles of people I don't like.     ←   ZScarpia   00:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Selfstudier

    I'm a little confused as to how this fits into Arbpia? Is the complaint based on the material related only to the page Israel lobby in the United Kingdom? If so, what is the relevance of all the other material? It seems more like a blp complaint rather than Arbpia? Selfstudier (talk) 21:45, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

    Thanks for the clarification. The three diffs that you say violate Arbpia are in relation to Israel lobby in the United Kingdom, David Miller and Denis MacShane, the last does not have the Arbpia notice and the nature of the complaints re all three appears to be as blp violations rather than AI conflict related per se.
    So there is a backstory. I can't see how trouble being caused by and for some irrelevant blogger has anything to do with Arbpia (Diff 1). There appear to be some content/sourcing issues + alleged blp vios but I can't see much else here, much ado about very little.Selfstudier (talk) 08:34, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
    This case is special, resolved without any testimony from the defendant;)Selfstudier (talk) 17:12, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
    "..the quality of the sources cited in talk page discussions" is an issue that I don't think anyone could reasonably disagree with although forumy stuff typically doesn't last very long on IP related talk pages. Reflecting on the initial complaint, I remain a little baffled where it has all come from to begin with, it almost reads as if Hippeus is acting for Collier ("...a blog post by David Collier from 23 September 2021 that was brought to my attention" and "...I have thoroughly vetted this particular claim by Collier") which would be a little unusual if that were the case. I guess what I am saying is that looked at in the round, I don't really think that Zscarpia has engaged in an intentionally unreasonable pattern of behavior and I wonder if this could not have been sorted out equably without involving this board.Selfstudier (talk) 13:35, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
    Per RSP, "There is no consensus on the reliability of Mondoweiss. Editors consider the site biased or opinionated, and its statements should be attributed." so the statement "group blog of poor quality and dubious reliability" would appear to be something of an exaggeration.Selfstudier (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Zero0000

    David Collier is a blogger and activist who <redacted>. A typical article title is (admins: I revdelled this as it includes outing). Now ZScarpia quotes some sources that are "negative" (it is claimed) about Collier on a talk page. It should be observed that this case is practically a copy-paste of a portion of that article of Collier. Nearly the whole thing is there. To see the worth of this, Collier claims it is a "smear" to associate him with a twitter account "well-known for exposing antisemites" (Collier's words). Since Collier himself claims to be dedicated to exposing antisemites, exactly why is it a smear? It might be correct or incorrect, but claiming it is a smear is transparently a tendentious way to attack Zscarpia and nothing else. This case should be dismissed. Zero 03:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    Geshem Bracha claims "ZScarpia uses a blog post from Greenstein to defend David Irving’s credentials as a historian". Everyone can see that in fact ZScarpia is quoting verbatim from the judgement of the Irving-Lipstadt libel case, which is quite rightly considered a major indictment of Irving. ZScarpia has included all of this section of the judge's remarks as well as the negative caveat in the following section. It doesn't matter a damn where ZScarpia found the link to the trial judgement. Moreover, ZScarpia included more of the judgement than Greenstein quoted, so it is not true that ZScarpia just quoted from Greenstein. ZScarpia is perfectly entitled to choose which part of the trial judgement to quote. Altogether, this is a false charge and Geshen Bracha should withdrawn it. Zero 08:55, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    Also, Geshem Bracha, the fact that Collier tells lies about me does not mean I have to shut up about him. Your "Nazis" comment is a severe and blatant violation of NPA. Zero 07:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    Geshem Bracha, I gave a source but I had to rev-del it as it includes outing. Admins here can look at what I rev-delled and see that my charge was eminently justified. Your "hint" that ZScarpia is a holocaust denier for quoting from a judge who concluded that Irving is a holocaust denier was simply outrageous. And the modified version of your "Nazis" attack is no better than the first version. I hope ZScarpia starts a case against you at AN/I to have you blocked. Zero 08:18, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    Just to be clear, all of the diffs provided against ZScarpia are for talk pages. There is no rule against mentioning unreliable sources on talk pages. In particular, in the process of robustly assessing the reliability of sources (as we are all required to do) it is often useful to discuss sources of all kinds. Provided the unreliable sources don't get into articles, this is just normal editing. Zero 09:38, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    More detail:
    (1) "Collier tells lies about me" = without offering any evidence (because there is none), Collier falsely claims that nobody can challenge my edits because I will block them.
    (2) "Insults and libels" = Collier accuses a considerable number of Misplaced Pages editors in good standing of being terrorism supporters and antisemites.
    (3) "I revdelled this as it includes outing" = I didn't notice until after I identified the article that it includes outing; any administrator who asks me privately for a link will get one.
    (4) The Irving-Lipstadt trial judgement is here. Greenstein quoted 13.7 and ZScarpia quoted 13.7 plus 13.8. The issue at hand was whether Irving has any value as a military historian, not whether he is a Holocaust denier and antisemite, and these are the pertinent sections. Incidentally, Greenstein says that Irving is "undoubtedly a neo-Nazi" so painting Greenstein as an Irving fan is simply wrong. Zero 00:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

    Exactly why is it a BLP violation to suggest David Collier is associated with Gnasher Jew? Nobody seems to be addressing that basic point. It could be OR or a RS violation, but that doesn't belong here. By Collier's own description, the Gnasher Jew twitter account is "well-known for exposing antisemites". Collier's description of his own mission is to "expose lies and antisemitism". The two are almost the same. People are writing as if ZScarpia wrote that Collier murdered his mother, not just with being associated with a ideologically compatible activist. Zero 02:03, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Geshen Bracha

    Zero0000 and ZScarpia have a COI on Collier and shouldn’t be writing anything about him.

    ZScarpia systemic use of Tony Greenstein is beyond the pale, this is a person described as a “notorious antisemite” and who was expelled from Labour for mocking the Holocaust term Final Solution.

    I found ZScarpia using Greenstein in another instance: in this post from September 2020, ZScarpia uses a blog post from Greenstein to defend David Irving’s credentials as a historian. Irving is a well known Holocaust denier.

    This is a straightforward Misplaced Pages:No Nazis situation, an editor posting from Greenstein over and over again is not here to build an encyclopedia.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 06:03, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    GizzyCatBella, I did not write that. I meant that the No Nozi essay applies to ZScarpia's repeated use of the Greenstein blog. In particular, the last line of WP:BLOCKNAZIS: "editors who come here to push this fringe point of view in articles, under the guise of the neutral point of view policy, are typically blocked as POV pushers."Geshem Bracha (talk) 07:55, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
    Zero0000, ZScarpia linked to Greeenstein's blog post in his posting on Irving, in a manner that cherry picks sources on Irving.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 08:02, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
    Zero0000, your statement accusing Collier of trading in "insults and libels" is a serious personal attack, without sources, against Collier.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 08:02, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
    ZScarpia posted, with a link to Greensrein's blog that has the quote, what is probably the only positive paragraph in the ruling against Irving. In the same discussion ZScarpia also introduced a Labour Against the Witchhunt video and Facebook post as sources.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 08:28, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
    Quoting beginning of ZScarpia's post: "Tony Greenstein, one of the goup responsible for organising the Campaign For Free Speech meetings, discusses them, including Norman Finkelstein's contributions, in a recent article on his blog ..." Use of Greenstein with double link to his blog is obvious. Linking to Greenstein's blog in a discussion about the "Opinion of David Irving" (section title) is perverse.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 09:26, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by GizzyCatBella

    This is a straightforward Misplaced Pages:No Nazis situation..

    Is Geshem Bracha accusing Zero0000 and ZScarpia of being Nazis!? Am I reading that correctly? - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Shrike

    The problem is not using unreliable sources on talk the problem is violation of WP:BLPTALK. We are not allowed to put negative statements without high quality WP:RS. --Shrike (talk) 10:21, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    Its quite troublesome that Zscarpia don't acknowledge the problematic nature of his comments toward living person using subpar sources --Shrike (talk) 16:28, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
    @Selfstudier: Do you really think that that Mondoweiss source meets our WP:BLP policy?--Shrike (talk) 16:59, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
    @Nableezy: Do you think that our WP:BLP policy is garbage? Also your post contains WP:ASPERSIONS and such WP:NPA violation. Please stop you WP:BATTLE attitude there is no "adversaries" here --Shrike (talk) 17:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
    @Rosguill, El C, and Deepfriedokra:Just to make it clear does Nableezy comments are acceptable? So it will be clear what kind of discourse are expected here at WP:AE. --Shrike (talk) 07:27, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
    I asked closure/additional input at WP:ANC --Shrike (talk) 16:23, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

    @Rosguill: The problem that user use the same rhetoric on talk page too ,. It doesn't really matter if his accusation are true or not there is a place for such discussion I for example have my reservation too about some users but I keep it to myself. This area is already toxic such rhetoric doesn't help build Misplaced Pages. --Shrike (talk) 15:18, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Levivich

    WP:BLPTALK says Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices should be removed, deleted, or oversighted, as appropriate. Here are instances where ZScarpia violated BLPTALK:

    At Talk:Israel lobby in the United Kingdom:

    • 18 May 2020: ...David Collier, a member of the team behind the GnasherJew twitter feed , and Jonathan Hoffman, former vice-president of the Zionist Federation.
    • 15 Dec 2020: David Collier, part of the GnasherJew conglomerate, is currently kicking off about Jane Jackman's eSharp article. I do hope that Glasgow University refuses to fold and tells him where to go (back under whichever bridge he crawled out from underneath, I imagine) and what to do with himself.
      • Note: ZScarpia removed the line "I do hope that..."
      • An IP removed "part of the GnasherJew conglomerate" as a BLPVIO
    • 28 Aug 2021: David Collier, who is mentioned in the article as one of the founders of Israel Coalition, writes a blog called Beyond the Great Divide (he is also suspected of being associated with the GnasherJew "crew").
    • This is Contentious material...poorly sourced and not related to making content choices, and it's repeated.

    At Talk:Denis MacShane:

    • 2 Sep 2021: The tribunal report had the following to say about the two MPs....
    • This isn't just a BLPTALK violation, but also a WP:NOTAFORUM violation. Zero writes above that ZScarpia is perfectly entitled to choose which part of the trial judgement to quote, but no, no editor is entitled to pick a quote out of some document and post it on an article talk page, especially if it's contentious and on a BLPTALK and, as BLPTALK says not related to making content choices.
    • This post had no relation to any content choices. Unless there are deleted edits I can't see, ZScarpia never edited this article, and this is the only post ZScarpia made to this talk page. The talk page had not been edited in over three months (June 1) prior to ZScarpia making this post. This is using BLP talk pages as a forum to argue.
    • The post was removed by Hippeus.

    At Talk:David Miller (sociologist):

    • 4 Sep 2021: By way of contrast to the views espoused by The Times...
    • Unless there are deleted edits, ZScarpia never edited this article, and made no posts to the talk page except for this one. The last post in that thread was from three weeks' prior. Arguably, this post was related to making content choices insofar as it sought to rebut content in the mainspace article that was sourced to The Times, but in that case, ZScarpia should not be bringing unreliable sources into the discussion. It makes me nervous that someone in PIA would be rebutting The Times with Electronic Intifada and a blog.

    From 2018: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive984#NOTFORUM at Talk:Campaign Against Antisemitism, which is about ZScarpia violating NOTAFORUM by linking to unreliable sources in forum-y talk page posts. Two examples:

    • 21 May 2018 was a restoration of comments ZScarpia had made in 2016 and 2017. Note it also links to Electronic Intifada and a blog.
    • 12 July 2018: ... if the accusations made in the following blog piece turn out to be true ... is a sentence no editor should ever be typing out. I mean the last we want to be doing is linking to accusations about a living person in a blog piece.

    So, this has been going on for some time now, and I think we need some assurance from ZScarpia that it won't happen again.

    WP:BLPTALK also says: Although this policy applies to posts about Wikipedians in project space, some leeway is permitted to allow the handling of administrative issues by the community, but administrators may delete such material if it rises to the level of defamation, or if it constitutes a violation of no personal attacks.

    Zero wrote above: David Collier is a blogger and activist who <redacted>. That was a personal attack against a BLP subject. Zero writes that Collier tells lies about me does not mean I have to shut up about him; actually, Zero does have to shut up about Collier on-wiki--Zero can write about Collier on some other website, not here. I have redacted the comment.

    Zero wrote above: There is no rule against mentioning unreliable sources on talk pages. There is, it's BLPTALK, quoted above.

    Zero wrote: I gave a source but I had to rev-del it as it includes outing. Admins here can look at what I rev-delled and see that my charge was eminently justified. WTF? An admin can't post outing, then revdel it, then tell fellow admins to go look at it so they can see it was justified. That's not how we submit private evidence. Levivich 19:01, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    • We can't be using this website to trash BLP subjects, even if they trash us. It doesn't necessarily create COI, but we can't just respond in kind; we need to maintain our neutrality and objectivity, even if others don't. I don't think any sanctions are required here but let's all be clear about what's the right way and what's the wrong way to discuss BLP subjects on-wiki. Levivich 16:49, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Building an encyclopedia means summarizing reliable sources, and linking to or repeating sources that are yellow at RSP, blogs, or other unreliable sources, will not help us summarize reliable sources. What unreliable sources say is not relevant to a summary of reliable sources, and unreliable sources cannot verify anything because they are unreliable. If you Google a person's name and they have a Misplaced Pages article, the article will be the first thing that comes up, or among the first. The article talk page is but one click away from that. So type a person's name into most browser search bars, and it's two clicks to the talk page. We all know this; that's why BLP policy exists. We don't want to link to unreliable sources or repeat what they say on such a prominent place as a BLP talk page, especially since it won't help us with our task of summarizing reliable sources. And it doesn't matter what the content in the unreliable sources is, it just matters that it's content from an unreliable source. Article talk pages should be the domain of only reliable sources. Levivich 01:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    @Rosguill: quite disheartening to hear you say within the worn bounds of civility defined by the other parties to this dispute. It should be the same bounds of civility for everyone. Particularly when the only parties to this dispute are one editor and three BLP subjects. And as a general comment, not just specific to Ros, the whole line of argument that it's ok to violate BLP if the BLP subject deserves it, or it's ok to violate WP:CIVIL if the other person deserves it... it makes me sad to read it, I think that kind of thinking falls short of how we should enforce our own policies as a community. Levivich 14:15, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

    vocal supporters with barely a fig leaf of pretense as to what people's motives are Seriously Ros??? What are my motives? What are anyone's motives here? Christ on a cracker you just keep making it worse. Levivich 15:40, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Hemiauchenia

    David Collier is a hyperpartisan pro-Israel blogger who has levelled numerous absurd hyperbolic accusations against Misplaced Pages, including that it is "At war with the Jews" , and is "the most active spreader of antisemitism on the planet" . I don't think that any of their claims can be taken seriously. That said, BLP restrictions do apply, and I have no view on whether ZScarpia has violatem them with regards to David Collier. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:53, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Nableezy

    The idea that because some living person is upset with the coverage of them on Misplaced Pages means that they get to disparage our editors and in so doing so veto who may discuss them is asinine. That a living person makes things up about an editor does not make it so that editor has a conflict of interest, and no Zero nor ZScarpia do not need to stop discussing said person. Yes they should use reliable sources when doing so, but somebody making bullshit claims on their blog about an editor does not make it so that this editor has a COI. That is beyond stupid and would allow any person to disqualify any editor they choose from editing their biography. The lockstep support for such an absurd report is also a bit concerning imo. nableezy - 15:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

    The claim on outing is likewise asinine. nableezy - 16:48, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    The regularity in which editors on one side of a POV divide are coming here pushing such straight up garbage accusations is really more concerning than any part of this complaint. And the socks of banned users who regularly return to spare with their former adversaries. nableezy - 16:50, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    No Shrike, I dont believe anything I havent said. Did I say the BLP policy is garbage? Cus that question is as silly as the outing claim. As far as aspersions, no I am saying directly Inf-In-MD is a NoCal100 sock, and I am working on that SPI presently. And lol no adversaries here. You and 11Fox11 just happen to show up in support of bans of editors with a particular editing history, and in opposition of others. Silly me. nableezy - 17:22, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    @El C:, sure, will cite diffs next time. But since you said you arent looking for them now, will just go back to working on that SPI. But I assure you, it is not a fire and forget accusation. I will be filing an SPI hopefully within the week. I think you mistook my "Jesus, that escalated quickly." That was a remark about how the sanctions on unrelated pages had escalated by ArbCom, not by you. I was surprised at the ruling that made ECP preferred for unrelated articles. That was the escalation (the clarification by ArbCom, not by you) I referred to. nableezy - 01:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

    El C, I apologize for using "garbage accusations" about a user saying that it is an OUTING violation to connect somebody, not a Misplaced Pages editor, with a twitter account, again not a Misplaced Pages account. I will figure out another way of characterizing what I think fails even the most basic reading of the first sentence of WP:OUTING (where it says another editor's personal information). As far as the socking accusation, it was in reference to Inf-in MD, and I still promise that SPI is coming this week. nableezy - 14:41, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

    El C, i said in the comment immediately following the sock comment it was directed at Inf-in MD. There wasnt any hunting necessary. The garbage comment I thought was a fairly obvious addition to the the claim on outing is likewise asinine. I apologize for using the word "garbage" since you seemed to take offense to it. But yes, I think the OUTING accusation in the section by 11Fox11 is of such low quality it qualifies. Ill try to find another wording for such a low quality attempt at banning an opponent in the future. nableezy - 15:20, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

    I will not again refer to Inf-in MD as a NoCal100 sock until an SPI is filed. nableezy - 15:30, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by 11Fox11

    The use of Tony Greenstein's blog, whose blog posts were deemed offensive enough to result in a Labour expulsion, is not reasonable. ZScarpia has not backed down from using this blog in their comments here.

    GnasherJew is an anonymous account (it was reinstated) so tying real people to the account is a form of outing, which is serious here given the amount of vitriol here directed at Jewish activists in the UK. Collier has denied being GnasherJew after ZScarpia's comments on Misplaced Pages.

    Zero0000, Gnasher Jew and Collier probably disagree on any number of issues. Just because they both are counter-antisemitism activists does not mean they agree on all other issues. Liz Truss and Priti Patel would probably object to being mixed up even though they are both minsters from the same party. Saying somebody is somebody else is a smear. This is beyond the outing aspect. 11Fox11 (talk) 13:25, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    @El C, Deepfriedokra, and Rosguill: GnasherJew is anonymous (sources above), is not tying identified real life persons to it a form of Misplaced Pages:Harassment#Posting of personal information (outing)? Can Misplaced Pages be used for outing of anonymous accounts on other platforms (in this case Twitter)? 11Fox11 (talk) 13:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Inf-in MD

    Despite claiming he understands what he did wrong, I don't think ZScarpia actually does. Immediately after assuring us he's had time to reflect on this, he posted the following diaprging comments about a living person here. There's no link given, but it can easily be verified that this comes from Mondonoweiss, another group blog of poor quality and dubious reliability. . User:Deepfriedokra recommendation of a BLP-ban seems reasonable. Inf-in MD (talk) 14:40, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

    Comment by GoodDay

    FWIW, I wish the lad would remove the arrow pointing left from his signature. Kinda distracting. GoodDay (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning ZScarpia

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Am I the only one finding this complaint really challenging to parse? And I probably know a lot more about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than the average patrolling AE admin. First, who is David Collier? Not David Collier (political scientist) I gathered. So, @mishtal on Twatter and david-collier.com — okay. Personally, I've never had a Twatter or Fakebook account, and whereas Fakebook has always limited my browsing, as of like a month ago, Twatter is doing the same thing, too. Then there's the OP statements about how David Collier "is also suspected of being associated with the GnasherJew "crew" (bold is my emphasis) ←btw, who is being quoted? But this seems more than a mere "association" seeing as the SocialistVoice (non-RS) tweet cited says: Far-right extremist David Collier, who also tweets as Gnasher Jew, says ‘wherever the Palestinian flag flies antisemitism is present’. Yikes to that last part. Yet, contrasting with their (SV, I think): Jewish companies and Jewish blood — double yikes, with extra irony icing on top.
    Anyway, anyone, like yours truly, not intimately familiar with the UK Labour party's anti-semitic -related (expressly so) expulsions and background, is going to be left scratching their heads here, I suspect. I get the sense that quite a bit of research is needed to figure out what's what. Because there's also David Irving, somehow, and a quote that may or may not belong to a judge (?). So confusing. I was gonna look at the revdel'd link, but it's been suppressed, so that's a secret now. I don't think ZScarpia's quoting of Ilan Pappé's Fakebook post where he describes of David Collier as a Zionist troll is a BLP violation on a talk page, but again, I, myself, am not in the position to verify that post, since Fakebook demands login (suck it, Fakebook!). Finally, the "worst for last" component RE: Tony Greenstein (whom I've never heard of before), seems... more than a bit disconcerting. Maybe I'm missing some key context there, though...? (Possible.)
    ZScarpia, I will say this, however: while obviously we give a lot more leeway on talk pages wrt BLP, I don't understand why you're (seemingly) relying on unreliable blog sources and so on to such an extent. Aren't there reliable sources you're able to cite, instead? Possibly, though, the other camp is also using subpar sources in the same way and this simply hasn't been documented here yet. Who can tell. Regardless, myself, I've never been a fan of citing non-RS to get to the RS. It'd be best to just RS-it to begin with. Otherwise, I guess we'll see if another admin has an easier time decoding this request, as I'm still pretty stumped. P.S. Israel lobby in the United Kingdom wasn't on my watchlist, which does surprise me. El_C 17:24, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
    • @Hippeus: well, I'm definitely not liking seeing the often-shady Fakebook, Twatter and blogosphere ARBPIA WP:BATTLEGROUND'ing becoming pervasive on Misplaced Pages's ARBPIA topic area, be it on talk pages or anywhere else. I'd much prefer to get any and all of that filtered through RS. The less of these -spheres featured on the project directly, the better, as far as I'm concerned. El_C 18:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
    • I agree with Deepfriedokra. I'd have been fine with a warning, but ZScarpia's response is just too subpar, in its WP:NOTTHEM and WP:IDHT. I will stop using low quality sources for BLPs would have sufficed (and would been mercifully brief, to boot). ZScarpia's failure to communicate such a commitment on their part, frankly, surprises me. El_C 20:21, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
    • ZScarpia, doesn't feel like you're getting it. When it comes to advancing any sort of BLP assertions of note, those kind of sources are strictly prohibited (and their usage otherwise is strongly discouraged irrespectively). If that's a concept you're struggling with, which seems to be the case, a blanket BLP ban, as proposed by Deepfriedokra, seems like the logical next step (I'm sorry to say). El_C 22:53, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
    • @Nableezy: not that long ago, among other things, you provided assurances that you'd be moderating your tone a lot better, as a condition of continuing to edit the topic area. You did so facing imminent sanctions, which, I, as the admin who closed that AN/I thread, opted to forgo (unlike with your opponent), because of those assurances. A decision which I faced criticism for. So I'm letting you know that, to me, it looks like you're slipping back into those old unconstructive patterns. I doubt the community, or a quorum of uninvolved admins here at AE, or ArbCom itself, would be inclined to give you another pass if this becomes a thing again.
    When you say something like: The regularity in which editors on one side of a POV divide are coming here pushing such straight up garbage accusations is really more concerning than any part of this complaint. And the socks of banned users who regularly return to spare with their former adversaries, and you do so as a fire-and-forget accusation. That's a problem. Not backing that up with evidence (which I'm not asking for at this very moment), that's a problem. If there's something in particular you wish admins to look into, be specific and cite diffs. Yes, there's partisanship in this and other contentious topic areas, but just adding more hostility to the conversation, that doesn't help anyone, yourself included. Good talk? Good talk. El_C 10:49, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
    • BTW, the "Good talk" is in reference to this Sept 22 discussion on my talk page. Which from my perspective as an admin active in ACDS, reveals a seeming impossibility to please. If I were brief, the chances that Nableezy would have been displeased about a lack of substance was high. Instead, I was substantive, but that brought a Well Jesus that clarification escalated things dramatically. So what do you do? Can't really avoid or evade this rock, hard place, between. I don't want to belabour this... chastisement, but I'd like to stress my own displeasure with what I'm seeing recently. Hopefully, it's something that may yet be corrected, but the number of corrections that'll be extended isn't infinite, is I suppose the bottom line. El_C 12:41, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Chalking it up to a misunderstanding, then, Nableezy. Not sure how I was to infer that, seeing as WP:ARBPIA4 wasn't an ARCA, but sure, struck. But, Rosguill, I don't understand why you think that sort of vague there's lots of socks, garbage, etc. (i.e. who? context to here?) is in-line with the civility expected for this topic area, but I very much disagree with you that this ought to be the discourse expected. Doesn't help anyone, and it certainly doesn't help for admins to give it a pass due to... reasons. It's doing the topic area a disservice.
    No objection to logging a warning to ZScarpia, now that they finally (finally, Swarm, is the point) provided assurances against repeated (is the point2) use of subpar sources for BLPs (and now also acknowledging that recently-deceased persons are also covered by the BLP policy). So I'm okay with closing this complaint thusly. El_C 10:32, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
    Rosguill, I don't want to belabour this too much, but I read and re-read your "serious irony" point, and it's just not connecting for me. How does it help to express that about regulars of the other side ("garbage"), just declaratively and that's it (i.e. no substance)? How does it help to follow that up about "banned socks," etc., again, with zero substance (i.e. who/when?). To me, it's coming across as making the discussion feel negative with no benefits attached (i.e. inactionable, negativity for no discernable reason). Which hinders collaboration among good faith contributors on both sides of the POV divide. El_C 11:09, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
    Rosguill, again, I was criticized for TBAN'ing Nableezy's opponent but not themselves, even though consensus at AN could have gone either way. So, no, I don't want to see that kind of rhetoric coming from them, specifically. (It's unhelpful, in general.) I want ARBPIA to be spared that kind of tone and tenor as much as humanly possible, certainly from those given an imminent warning about this already. (See my log entries dated 19 March 2021.)
    I gotta stay true to my commitment as the closer of that thread, if Nableezy doesn't stay true to theirs. So this is me warning them about keeping to that. And it doesn't really help when you approach this in relative isolation when I already mentioned the broader context here. El_C 15:08, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
    @Nableezy: I'm not impressed with your "apology," because it qualifies for forever. Nor do I like playing guesswork or coaxing from you what you meant by "garbage" or who you were referring to as "banned socks." You promised (very adamantly, as I recall) to moderate your tone and I'm letting you know that you are falling short. Not sure what else there is to say. El_C 15:16, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
    @Nableezy: maybe enough with these "apologies." I apologize for using the word "garbage" since you seemed to take offense to it. That rings hallow to me. I don't need you to apologize to me. I'm not offended. But I do need you to tone it down with the acerbic barbs. As for 11Fox11, I've already warned them in the complaint directly below this one (WP:AE#Selfstudier). Anyway, maybe try to genuinely reflect on what I'm conveying to you. That's what I want. El_C 15:35, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
    Unless there are objections, I'll be closing this complaint in a day or so with a logged warning to ZScarpia about subpar sources and BLP (logged at ARBPIA, however), and a caution to Nableezy about keeping to their promise (i.e. tone police thyself, please, no one likes it doing it). El_C 12:55, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
    • @El C: Couldn't make heads or tails of it. Seemed to contradict itself. I will say 1) BLP content must be impeccably sourced. 2) Once challenged and removed, such content should not be added back without a consensus to do so. 3) We must not add negative BLP to a talk page while discussing it. You can use a dif to indicate what the challenged content is and discuss sourcing from there. I think BLP would be a more appropriate DS area to address these concerns. Much closer than this area. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 17:32, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Looking over the specific cases identified by Levivich, only the comments at Talk:Denis MacShane seem to truly be unrelated to content decisions. The other posts are a mix of proffering examples of pro-Israel activists being active in UK at Talk:Israel lobby in the United Kingdom, and arguing for a semi-plausible (but not RS-backed) OR theory regarding David Collier's activities as they related to the discrediting of sources that were then being challenged on Misplaced Pages in the discussions where ZScarpia made the comments. Now, the over reliance on primary and otherwise unreliable sources is concerning, but am I correct in assessing that this only amounts to disruption insofar as off-Misplaced Pages commentators have complained about it being a smear campaign? And that the extent of the smear campaign is to state that Collier, a pro-Israel activist, did some pro-Israel activism and associated with other activists with similar goals? I'm not sure I see the need for anything beyond warning about citing poor sources en masse in talk page discussions. signed, Rosguill 01:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
      El_C, it helps that I followed the Labour antisemitism debacle from afar, although now that I'm seeing it more up close I'm not regretting the former distance. signed, Rosguill 02:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
      @ZScarpia:, regarding the comment at Talk:Denis MacShane, now having read your reasoning it makes more sense, but in isolation its relevance to the article's content was not clear. At this point I think we're departing from policies and guidelines and instead assessing unwritten customs and norms but trying to spark conversations on talk pages as a precursor to content changes is not a typical editing process on Misplaced Pages, so I don't think that it's surprising that editors are asserting that it is a violation of NOTFORUM (although leaving links to potentially useful but dense, paywalled or otherwise inaccessible texts for others to use is still a good practice in my book). I'll echo Deepfriedokra and note that at this point the main unresolved issue that I would hope to see you speak to is the quality of the sources cited in talk page discussions. signed, Rosguill 19:50, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
      Just noting that I'm still in favor of closing this with a warning. ZScarpia could have been quicker and less pro forma with their response re source quality, but given that they have now acknowledged that issue, and that the merits of opening this case in the first place were dubious (per my first comment), I think that anything more severe than a warning is unnecessary. signed, Rosguill 21:09, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
      As far as Nableezy's comment is concerned, a baseline assumption that socks abound for a topic like I/P isn't unreasonable: it is a topic that draws committed people who are not going to give up just because we show them the door once. Their comments in this discussion are well within the worn bounds of civility defined by the other parties to this dispute, and raking them over the coals for a technicality that occurred while they were making a complaint that pro-Palestine editors were being repeatedly grilled on trivial grounds is some serious irony. signed, Rosguill 05:39, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
      El C, Levivich I agree that salty rhetoric doesn't help anyone, I guess I just see it as more inevitable/understandable and don't think it merits belaboring this case. I read Nableezy's first comments as more of a general expression of frustration with the climate around I/P disputes on Misplaced Pages rather than targeted personal attacks, and in the context of a report whose original merits are dubious but which nonetheless has drawn out a retinue of vocal supporters with barely a fig leaf of pretense as to what people's motives are, I kinda get it. @Levivich, as far as everyone being treated the same is concerned, I was trying to express that right now I think we have rough parity of poor behavior (rough because it's a bit apples and oranges to compare the various kinds of behavior on display here), and that these standards are collectively and continuously set by people's actions. If this were happening on an article talk page I think that a more heavy handed response would be needed in order to get people back to editing constructively, but since the context for this is a report at AE, I think it's more productive to close the case, tell everyone to get back to work and remove the occasion for conflict. signed, Rosguill 14:45, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
    • So if I'm boiling this down correctly, ZScarpia made a dubious accusation about a living person, and said living person saw it and claimed they were being "smeared". Per what is articulated above, the living person in question is biased against Misplaced Pages to a fairly extreme degree, believing the site is systemically antisemitic, and the "smear" in question is not actually insulting or negative to begin with. It's mostly a technicality about how the claim wasn't reliably sourced, which Scarpia concedes and says was a failure on his part. I don't see where ZScarpia's being so unreasonable, and I'm not sure what DFO is so worked up about. Maybe I'm missing something. ~Swarm~ 04:47, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

    Selfstudier

    Withdrawn by filer, who hopefully had learned some valuable lessons along the way. Mostly about how WP:AE is meant to facilitate WP:DR, not the other way around. El_C 21:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Selfstudier

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    11Fox11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:39, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Selfstudier (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles-1RR
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 17:36, 29 September 2021 Revert of this edit that removed this from the lead. David Miller (sociologist) is known in this context:
    2. 21:53, 29 September 2021 re-instating material from above, 12 minutes after it was challenged
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. 1 July 2020 AE on 1RR rule breaking resulted in logged warning: "is warned to be more mindful. When in doubt, self-revert."
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 30 September (in discussion also involving David Miller (sociologist))
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I notified Selfstudier that they broke the 1RR rule, and asked that they undo themselves. After they failed to do so, I removed this from the lead and reported here.

    Also User:Hemiauchenia provides this context on Syrian civil war conspiracy theories for Miller. Read Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media and The Times for coverage on those. 11Fox11 (talk) 18:39, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    User:Bishonen, in my perspective it should have been obvious that it was a revert to begin with because the original removal just a few days prior had a very clear summary, including: " Moved info about Israel government connections and West Bank views to criticism". Even though I felt it was obvious, I gave Selfstudier the benefit of the doubt and notified them of the breach and asked for an undo. This was a courtesy request to save everyone time. I admit I was flabbergasted when I got this reply on how it was "an addition of material not a revert", this prompted me to be very terse as I perceived this to be wikilawyering. Even in Selfstudier's response here they are still arguing that it is not a revert in the first paragraph of their response: "... added it to the lead as is normal practice ... A revert would have been taking the same material back out of the body and reinserting it into the lead". They inserted almost the same material, same Miller reference, same quotes from it, mostly same words. 11Fox11 (talk) 19:59, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    I apologize for wasting your time, I struck all my comments above. I should have taken a very deep breath and explained in greater detail before coming here. 11Fox11 (talk) 20:38, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    Discussion concerning Selfstudier

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Selfstudier

    On 24 September, an editor removed material from the lead and placed it in the body instead. There were then intervening edits and continuing discussions on the talk page in the normal course. Then because the lead at that point contained zero criticism (on the 29th), I made a summary of some of what was in the body as criticism and added it to the lead as is normal practice (it's not even exactly the same although I agree it is similar). A revert would have been taking the same material back out of the body and reinserting it into the lead.

    The second diff is a revert, I made that straightaway because there was an ongoing discussion at the NPOV noticeboard where an editor gave his opinion and then came to the article and reverted in order to enforce his opinion, which I thought was an unreasonable thing to do.

    I asked 11Fox11 several times to explain what the second revert was a revert of and he declined to do so even though I said that if he could convince me that I had breached 1R I would of course fix it but he just ignored that and filed here. He has now reverted the material out of the lead himself so even if my editing was considered a revert, I would not be able to self revert it anyway. This is not collaborative behavior. Selfstudier (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Selfstudier

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I'll ask the same question that Selfstudier asked: where is the second revert? I see addition of material and one revert. Was that initial addition the restoration of previously removed material? EvergreenFir (talk) 18:44, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
    • The section on Selfstudier's page where 11Fox11 asks them to self-revert doesn't throw a very good light on 11Fox11, I must say. Like EvergreenFir, I can figure out how this diff is a revert — this edit four days earlier had moved material out of the lead into a criticism section, and Selfstudier moved it back — but it's not altogether simple, so why not just explain it when you're asked? You seem to have been in a tearing hurry to report Selfstudier, too much so to explain (look at the timestamps in the linked discussion, and the comment "I am writing up the AE report beginning 5 minutes from now"), which gives off a bit of a gotcha whiff. I don't think I have ever commented on an ARBPIA case before, but I'm not happy about this one. I wouldn't sanction Selfstudier. Bishonen | tålk 19:35, 30 September 2021 (UTC).
    • This is classic weaponizing of AE, which I take a dim view of. 11Fox11, this noticeboard is for intractable matters. As Bish points out, I-got-AE-on-speed-dial, you-have-5-minutes obviously falls short. Such an approach (not bothering to explain yourself when asked) does you no credit and, basically, amounts to WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct. El_C 20:01, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
    • Oh, for Heaven's sake. I must say that "classic weaponizing of AE," was my first impression. Bish, as always, cuts through to the heart of the matter. To be honest, I'd sooner sanction 11Fox11 for this battleground approach. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:32, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

    Dabaqabad

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Dabaqabad

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Apaugasma (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:38, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Dabaqabad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration enforcement log#Horn of Africa (part of ARBHORN)
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 24 August 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page (reinstating unreliably sourced content)
    2. 10 September 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page
    3. 28 September 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page (reinstating unreliably sourced content)
    4. 10 October 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page (reinstating unreliably sourced content)
    5. 10 October 2021 Reverting without explaining at the talk page (removing sourced content)
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
    1. 25 January 2021 Dabaqabad blocked for 48 hours (disruptive editing in ARBHORN area)
    2. 4 March 2021 ARBHORN DS editing restriction imposed
    3. 24 August 2021 Dabaqabad blocked for 1 week (violating ARBHORN DS restriction)
    If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
    • Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    After having been blocked on 25 January 2021 for disruptive editing in the ARBHORN area, Dabaqabad was placed under a special editing restriction by El C on 4 March 2021, reading you are to always follow a revert with an article talk page comment explaining it in any and all WP:ARBHORN topic area pages or edits (whatsoever). They were warned on 23 March 2021 for violating the restriction. On 16 August 2021, they got into an edit war in an ARBHORN-related article (obviously including reversion without engaging on the talk page). On 24 August 2021, I inquired on El C's talk page whether the editing restriction was still active, pointing out repeated violations , which lead El C to block Dabaqabad for one week.

    Their very first edit after getting unblocked was already a violation of the restriction . Like most of Dabaqabad's reverts that stay unexplained at the talk page, this was reverting vandalism/a test edit, so at the time I decided to just leave it be. However, looking at their last 100 edits, it becomes clear that Dabaqabad is violating the editing restriction imposed on them almost casually. It's also not always obvious vandalism, e.g. . However, it becomes really egregious at the point where they are reverting the addition of reliably sourced content (perhaps undue, but per their restriction they should explain this at the talk), and especially when reverting the removal of unreliably sourced (mis)information .

    Dabaqabad has little understanding of what constitutes a reliable source (for a long read, see here), and combined with the uncommunicative attitude and the clear disregard for an existing editing restriction, I believe there is enough evidence that they are not compatible with the project of building an encyclopedia.

    Since ScottishFinnishRadish mentioned it: I too was confused about this at first, but yes, the ARBHORN discretionary sanctions were extended after their initial trial period (see here).
    Let me also note that restoring my revision here (as an 'alternative' to directly reverting the other user; the gaming here itself betrays that there's no lack of awareness) was indeed restoring misinformation (which I then removed 2 edits later): I don't mean to imply that it was necessarily in bad faith (misinformation is regardless of an intention to deceive), just that this should not happen. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:14, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

    @El C: common sense was precisely what I tried to rely on when determining that Dabaqabad's many violations of their restriction were as a rule reverting vandalism. The fact that I come here now is not a 'gotcha' attempt, it's just that undoing the removal of badly sourced information really is a problem. The King Saud University source used here is an unedited manuscript of the Futūḥ al-Ḥabasha ('The Conquest of Abyssinia'), written in 1534 and the main primary source used by scholars for the Ethiopian–Adal war. This is a wholly inappropriate source for Misplaced Pages editors to base interpretative and evaluative statements on.

    I happen to be able to read that manuscript, and it doesn't call the Habr Magaadle clan leader Aḥmad Guray ibn Ḥusayn al-Ṣūmālī the "right-hand man" of Imam Ahmad: rather, the Habr Magaadle are only one in a whole series of Somali clans that are named there (pp. 14/17-15/18), and their leader only one in a whole series of clan leaders who joined their forces with the Imam. I'll admit I was wrong here in suspecting that the Aḥmad Guray ibn Ḥusayn mentioned was a fabrication, though the two Aḥmads (the clan leader and the Imam) have been conflated in later times (see here). Anyway, that's why we have to rely on secondary, scholarly sources.

    Dabaqabad has frustrated an earlier attempt by me to remove unreliably sourced information like this , and frankly the Ishaaq bin Ahmed article is still full of misinformation because of it. This has got nothing to do with assuming bad faith or 'getting' at other editors: I just really believe that it would be a huge improvement to Misplaced Pages if we would ban users from editing articles of which they clearly have no understanding on how to reliably source it. We're too focused generally on dramatic conflicts (blocking or banning users only when they cross some drama-line), and not enough on simply and dryly determining who is capable of writing an encyclopedia and who is not. Your custom sanction was certainly inventive, but I think it missed the main point in that someone who bases their edits on personal preconceptions rather than on what reliable sources happen to say, just ought not to edit at all. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 08:04, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

    I know I'm over my word limit here, but let me make this short clarifying statement: I just think that the smiley with the Christmas hat is really funny, and the most disarming among the available smileys. Erm, what I meant to say: what Dabaqabad is claiming below is basically that, because Somali Islamic hagiographies are being studied by respected scholars such as Alessandro Gori, we should be able to base WP articles on these hagiographies and present their contents as historical facts. It's a bit like arguing that because the Bible is extensively studied by respected scholars, we should be able to base WP articles on the Bible and present the contents of the Bible as fact. I very much respect Dabaqabad's energy and drive, but it's wholly directed at making WP present as facts what are essentially religio-nationalistic myths. It's such a pity that, because of the obscurity of the topic area, this is not more readily recognized. It's a classic case for a TBAN, really, but what is perhaps lacking is more editors who are familiar enough with the subject to see this. Thanks for trying to deal with this difficult issue anyway, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
    @Wadamarow: that's interesting. Dabaqabad also misrepresented the same source you mention in another article (cf. my correction). I weirdly assumed that one to be a good faith error, but the diff you brought up clearly shows they are really intent on puffing up the Isaaq clan numbers and misrepresenting their proportion in relation to other clans (according to the source, the Gadabuursi actually outnumber the Isaaq). I think we should be done here now. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Dabaqabad

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

    I think these sanctions expired back in March. Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all pages relating to the Horn of Africa (defined as including Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and adjoining areas if involved in related disputes) for a trial period of three months and until further decision of this Committee. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:32, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

    Well would you look at that. I've been under the assumption for some time now that they were expired. Thanks for the info. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Dabaqabad

    Hello @Apaugasma:,

    Most of these edits that I reverted were made by IP users or were unsourced, which I assumed would not warrant going to the talk page. I'm not on Misplaced Pages as often as I used to and am prone to forgetting the arbitration ruling sometimes (which is not acceptable at all), for which I am deeply sorry and will make sure to follow it as strictly as possible.

    As for , I had explained earlier to him in that the source he used, which was written in 1975 on behalf of the Ministry of Education of Somalia, at a time where Somalia was ruled by a clan-based military dictatorship, was not a valid source since the source twists the official narrative and contradicts many sources, including the very sources it cites. More on that there. On I had reverted an edit that was clearly used out of context and which the source did not explicitly mention or back up. Again, I should have followed up with a message on the talk page. On I had ironically restored your edit, and the source itself could be considered a primary source at worst (I did not originally add it in so I have no idea).

    I'd also like to call on you to assume good faith as expected on Misplaced Pages. You calling my edits "misinformation" is not. I am here solely for the project of building an encyclopedia and improving Somali-related articles which have seen a lack of editors and therefore valuable information that many people can research and use (and which I have contributed to a lot). I have put a lot of time and effort into trying my best to improve a wide array of articles and if I make mistakes (which I inevitably do) then point it out for me so I can rectify them as soon as possible. Another thing I'd like to note is that all my sources I use are to the best of my knowledge reliable and might be misinterpreted as unreliable due to the foreign languages in which they are written in.

    Many thanks, Dabaqabad (talk) 18:22, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

    @Apaugasma: For the Ahmed Gurey reference, again that is not my text nor did I actually use that reference so I do not see why I should be under scrutiny for that. It's funny that you mentioned since you had removed a lot of reliable sources and probably a third of the Ishaaq bin Ahmed page without reaching out first, claiming the sources cited were unreliable (, , )

    I broke down each source one by one and explained where they came from and how they are reliable as can be seen on however you rejected all of them in favour of IM Lewis, who (while being an expert in the wider Somali history genre) is not an expert at Somali genealogy and Islamic literary in the Horn of Africa and has had orientalist tendencies which we both agreed on per . You flat out rejected all of these sources on the basis that IM Lewis had mentioned that certain recent hagiologies were myths (despite the fact that some of them were written decades before IM Lewis became active).

    I tried to compromise with you (by proposing we include wording like "attributed" and "attested") but you rejected that as well with no basis whatsoever. This is despite the fact that many of the sources that were cited were either secondary sources by themselves (some are even published by Umm al-Qura University in Makkah, Saudi Arabia as well as in other universities) or referenced by credible scholars like Alessandro Gori in his book 'Studi sulla letteratura hagiografica islamica somala in lingua araba' (Studies on the Arabic Islamic Hagiographic literature in Somalia) . The book also confirms most of, if not all the content that I had put in (including Sheikh Ishaaq's lineage , the origin of Ghurbani, the author of a manuscript that I cited as well as his credibility and independence etc.)

    Mind you, Alessandro Gori is an associate professor of the Arabic Language and Literature, his main field being the Islamic literary production of the Horn of Africa (especially Ethiopia and Somalia/Somaliland). That is literally his job, to document the manuscript tradition in the Muslim communities in north-eastern Africa (especially Ethiopia and Somalia/Somaliland). Since he can be identified as the foremost expert, he therefore takes precedence over IM Lewis, who is not an expert in that specific field as I mentioned earlier. Alessandro Gato has therefore also established that the sources that I had referenced in the Ishaaq bin Ahmed page have due weight. I can give you more detail on that later in the talk page.

    Changing an entire page to suit the POV of one scholar and ignoring other sources on the basis that they are "primary" sources or are discredited by said scholar is something that I doubt is acceptable on Misplaced Pages. "Monopolizing" pages prevents useful and reliable information from being added on to the page which hinders Wikipedians from their goal; creating an encyclopedia. Then is the fact that like El_C mentioned, it feels like it's a "gotcha" moment (not accusing you or anything but just saying). I frankly don't see how this report has been done in good-faith in all honesty, and the fact that you claim that I base my edits on personal preconceptions rather than on what reliable sources say just slightly short of confirms that for me. My violations of the sanctions and the issue with sources (which is by itself nothing more than a mere disagreement between two users and not a rule violation) that you had brought forth are unrelated and cannot be tied together.

    As for @El C:, I'm wondering: does the sanctions include IPs and non-established users (those who only have a few edits to their name)? It is a bit confusing to be frank.

    Many thanks, Dabaqabad (talk) 13:17, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

    @El C: I assure everyone in here that, upon given a final last chance, and now that I have properly read up on the sanction that was imposed on me, that I'll 100% stick to it and declare all reverts that I do in the talk page and ping the editors whose edits I have reverted. I very much regret the previous sanction violations that I have committed and can assure everyone on here that they will not be repeated at all. I fully understand the rules and regulations of Misplaced Pages and I will make as much effort as I can to fully follow them. The few issues that I have regrettably caused aside, I have contributed a lot to Somali articles (including writing several well-sourced pages like the Somaliland War of Independence, 1922 Burao Tax Revolt not to mention towns and districts) and would more than love to contribute even more.

    As for @Freetrashbox:, let me explain my reverts now;

    1. For , the source itself never mentioned the fact that the Musa Arreh inhabited the town or that it is one of their home wells (home wells = inhabiting in this context). It is a well known fact that the Musa Arreh don't reside in the Sool region, in fact, the only subclan of the Habr Yunis that do reside there are the Sa'ad Yunis. Since Somalis are nomadic clans tend to venture far into other clans' home wells and territories to graze during the drought season, which explains the part you mentioned. The Musa Arreh primarily reside in the Togdheer and Sanaag regions as well as the Somali Region in Ethiopia (specifically the Gashamo woreda). While granted my conduct was a bit poor

    2. For the BBC article mentions clashes between two clans in Adhi'adeye. While in the Somali context the clans are pretty obvious, in Misplaced Pages's context that is not the case and upon further inspection I could not find the clans mentioned there. I will be doing more research on that topic however and will be adding a credible reference to that.

    3. As for the fact that Abdirashid Duale is of the Sanbur clan is well-known among Somalis. I was looking for a credible source to confirm that fact however I forgot to reference it on that page. Will be doing more research and will add a credible reference to that as well.

    As for @RegentsPark:, understood.

    @Apaugasma: Funnily enough I actually thanked you on the correction you made on Djibouti, which would not have been the case had there been an intentional "puffing up" that you mentioned. The Isaaq figure was the only one that actually had a percentage mentioned, and I assumed they would be the second largest Somali clan however they are the fourth, per closer inspection. I'd like for you, however, to address the points I made regarding the Ishaaq bin Ahmed page.
    As for @Wadamarow:,

    1. The first two edits have already been explained per my reply to Apaugasma

    2. Per , I had actually explained to you the fact that the Habr Awal did have a presence in eastern Awdal. Instead of refuting that claim properly you essentially "threatened" (how I perceived it) to add "Samaroon presence in Gabiley" by saying "So in the interest of fairness, if you wish to add your source here, I will reciprocate and add it in Wajaale and Gabiley pages, which I'm sure you won't have an issue with. Rest assured, I have numerous sources for Gabiley and Wajaale, so I wont have a problem adding them all. I look forward to your response." (which goes against a long-standing consensus made after a length discussion ) in some sort of tit-for-tat game, while also saying "I won't have to rely on your source, I have my own". That link also proves that I reached out to you as well. I also removed the excessive amount of blockquotes in accordance with WP:QUOTEFARM.

    3. As for , I was under the impression that the Isaaq-majority town of Tog Wajaale fell under the Awbarre woreda (and which you also claimed it did up until 4 years ago), but upon closer inspection again my opinion on that changed and we both came to a mutual understanding. You then once again "threatened" to add the "Samaroon" presence in Wajaale ("I could easily edit your Wajaale part and include Samaroon and I have plenty of sources to back up my claims, however since I do not wish to enter an edit war I have thus far not done so. If you insist on including Habar Awal in Awbarre, then I will insist on the same for Wajaale.") based on a source that only mentioned a land dispute. All of this while failing to assume good-faith by accusing me of "tampering".

    I don't get how you are bringing up past events that I got warned for and which were resolved time ago, it seems to me that this is some sort of "gotcha" moment. You're beating a dead horse. Dabaqabad (talk) 22:18, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Freetrashbox

    Moved from the section above. El_C 12:43, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

    I am glad that you welcome pointers to your edits. I've asked a few questions about sources on your talk page in the past , but you don't seem to have noticed yet. I am waiting for the answers.--Freetrashbox (talk) 10:13, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

    You should attach sources to all of your unsourced statements, including the three above. And all your statements against WP:BLP should be revoked immediately. These are also true in general, and since you often undo other people's edits on the grounds that they are "unsourced," you should adhere to them especially closely.--Freetrashbox (talk) 20:55, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

    Statement by Wadamarow

    Hi I would like to point out some previous violations committed by Dabaqabad.

    1. In the most recent violations on the Djibouti pages which can be found here ] and here ]. Dabaqabad added a source to mask an edit that is not reflected in the actual source. The source which can be found here ] does not state what is shown in the edit, this is tantamount to tampering with sources and in violation of Misplaced Pages guidelines. Dabaqabad also made this edit without mentioning it on the Talk page.

    2. In the Awdal Region page which can be found here ], Dabaqabad also committed similar violations where he relentlessly made edits which weren't reflected in the sources and only stopped tampering when he was warned by another admin. He also deleted sourced edits by other users.

    3. In another instance on the Somali Region page he also tried to make edits without the correct use of a reference and attempted to remove sourced edits. ]

    This repeated pattern of behavior, where Dabaqabad does not follow the Wiki guidelines has unfortunately reduced the accuracy of some of the content on these pages. I have refrained from editing the Djibouti page so as to not get into an edit war with him. However, in light of these repeated violations a topic ban would be in the best interests of all concerned editors on the HOA Region.

    Regards Wadamarow (talk)

    @Apaugasma: This isn't the first time it's happened either, on the Awdal page here ] he removed sourced edits without reason and manipulated sources just as he did on the Djibouti pages. He also did the same on the Somali Region page here ] this is despite being asked on the talk page to make sure he adds sources before editing. Unfortunately, Dabaqabad simply wishes to edit in a partisan manner with no regards for the accuracy and quality of the pages. Since Arbitration began he made over 30 edits without using the Talk pages, this is a repeated violation which doesn't look like will stop without action.

    Wadamarow (talk)

    Result concerning Dabaqabad

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Apaugasma, while I'm not liking parts of this complaint —what makes that King Saud University source unreliable? Almost seems like a gotcha attempt there— it is nonetheless disappointing to learn that Dabaqabad somehow forgot (forgot?) about their ARBHORN sanction, when all they seem to edit are ARBHORN pages. I'm finding that a bit difficult to reconcile, tbh.
    As I mentioned on past occasions, this sanction was intended as a boon in lieu of a topic ban from all ARBHORN pages outright. Perhaps it ought to have been tightened to only include named accounts (that Dabaqabad could ping to a talk page) but exempting IPs unless their edits or explanations thereof are especially substantive. But I don't know how practical that would have been to enforce, what metric one would use to determine that, etc. Ideally, I'd like to count on common sense Miss information, she be fierce!
    Erm, sorry. Where was I? Right, the custom sanction. Likely, it was a mistake, structurally, as they often prove to be. Certainly, it seems like it was a mistake in the sense that Dabaqabad couldn't remember that it existed. Anyway, I'm open to suggestions on how to proceed, because I'm sort of drawing a blank atm (though it is late). El_C 03:28, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
    • RE: {{p|holidays}} — look, Apaugasma, I'm okay with putting up the Christmas lights in November (late November), but on Sept 1? Come on, give Santa a chance to rest. Double erm. Yeah, I'm not sure how one here at en is expected to infer that from the source or your previous explanations concerning it (possibly I missed it), whose Arabic text Googly does not offer to translate.
    But beyond that, I'm having serious difficulties even remembering much of the context of the March 2021 events so as to tell what's what (or what was what then). I still might be open to a sanction that would allow Dabaqabad to continue editing ARBHORN pages in some limited capacity, as an alternative to a blanket (WP:BROADLY) ARBHORN WP:TBAN. But what that sanction might look like, I have no idea. If it even makes sense to not TBAN right now in light of Dabaqabad multiple failings to adhere to the sanction. El_C 12:39, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Dabaqabad, I think it's bit late in the day to express confusion about a sanction which you just plain forgot existed, anyway. And before then, got blocked for violating. You've had so many months to seek clarifications. Not sure you realize this, but at this point, the likelihood that the current sanction will just be converted into a full ARBHORN topic ban is high.
    So it's probably best to deal with the underlying problems: sourcing issues, unexplained reverts (still), and assuring us that you'd even remember the existence of a sanction which covers the only topic area you edit. Again, that especially, inspires little confidence you could be relied upon to stick to the plan (whatever it might be and however it is defined as). El_C 13:34, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Given how confusing all this is, the simplest solution is a block (whatever the appropriate escalation amount is) for clearly violating the restriction. @Dabaqabad: restrictions apply to all edits, whether they be IPs, new editors, or established editors. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:29, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
      @El C: Whatever you think appropriate works. On the face of it, the violations are few in number but, looking over their edits, it is clear that the Horn of Africa is their only interest. A topic ban might clarify things. --RegentsPark (comment) 15:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
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