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Removal of Links

I removed a link to an online petition against Mata Amritanandamayi as I felt that it was a promotion of the petition.

I am still not very comfortable with the tone of the rest of the article. As an encyclopedia, I feel that an article should not take sides. I do not know how to re-edit it at this time, will probably visit it at a later time

The whole movement has spawned a whole load of bunkum spouting foriegn dollar searching fake gurus in southern India. You ought to mention the effect such fake sadhus have on societies that are gullible enough to be taken by a row of neo-hippie foriegners waiting for "darshan". This article needs more clarity, skeptic voices, a list of copy-cat sadhus and saints, and what to do when you spot bunkum like this. For those interested, south indian TV channels now chronicle the lives of such fake sadhus. The trick here is to amass enough wealth and connections to muzzle the press fast enough. (www.kairali.tv),(www.sunnetwork.com)

Its good to profile people, but bad when skeptic voices are actively filtered out.

This comment doesn't seem to relate to Amma at all. You talk about 'fake gurus', but provide no evidence that she is one. If there other 'fake gurus' about whom you have useful information, please edit their profiles instead.

Too negative.

The page still looks unacceptably negative or biased against Mata Amritanandamayi, in my personal opinion. I will try and place a few lines about the charity and other good aspects of the mission, to balance out the criticism.

Charitable Activities

The page does not mention the very huge list of charitable activities undertaken by the Mata Amritanandamayi Math with the Tsunami rekief work being the major one. I would like to provide the details if required. www.amritapuri.org and www.amma.org give the details.

A link to those sites is at the bottom of the articles. Please restrict yourself to reliable sources as defined on Misplaced Pages if you want to add further details. Perhaps it would be better to add it to the organisation's article rather than the individual.Hornplease 07:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Too much propaganda

It is rather surprising to read the comment that the essay in the current form is too negative. The essay contains six to seven paragraphs of pure propaganda about the so called charitable acitivies of 'Amma' and her institutions. And it just has a single paragraph on the criticism levelled by skeptics and many social activists who find it, justifiably, uneasy to accept her/her devotees claims about her miraculous powers.

>> These are not 'so-called' charitable activities. They are on a massive (multi-million-dollar) scale and their existance and scale are easily verified by following the links in the main article, many of which are independent mainstream media accounts.

Regarding charitable activities this is the normal practice of many a godman who amasses wealth by hook or by crook and then spends a fraction of his/her wealth for the so-called 'charitable' activities.

In fact the essay requires much more information about their critics.

Citing People from the Dheevarar community

Mata amritanandamayi belongs to the Arayan (Dheevaran) community. And I know of a lot of stories of amritanandamayi as told by the local community. How do I incorporate these informations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabidphage (talk • contribs)

• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability contains discussion about the extent to which we can incorporate unpublished sources. The primary issue is verifiability, so there's not a lot of leeway except for the most basic and uncontroversial assertions. --Dystopos 14:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot --User:Rabidphage

Clarification

The 'Too Negative' Comment was made when the page had just two paragraph in it, one introduction, and second the critism. Recently the page has been updated to include the detail of the Charity activitiies. And now its fairly balanced, in my personal opinion.

I don't know how it works here, but may be we should delete all these comments, as they are misleading?

Cheers,

A.

Sceptics at work

Everyone is entitled to own opinion and have the freewill to epxress it, but I would imagine one would do little bit more homework before trying to argue agaist a person who is revered by millions all over the world, has won 2002 UN Gandhi-King awad (previous winner were Nelson Mandela and Koffi Annan etc)!!?

Could IndianSceptic or who ever is contributing to the anti-Amma information prove slightly more credible news sources at external link than references to random personal blogs and public message threads, please?

Also, I would like to bring this to the attention of the moderators, that the allegation made here are very serious (suspecious deaths etc) and it hurts the feelings of ordinary people around the world who wholeheartedly dedicated their time and efforts to help poor and needy in any way possible. The fact that the critisism is not being back up with a credible source is more than pitiful! Could someone impartial look at this page or even lock it please?

Thank you!

15:53, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)~~

SKollur: Critical links

Can you please update the page with links to rather respected sources, instead of personal webpages or public discussion forums, where anyone is free to write anything? I am worried about wikipedia's reputation giving credibility to otherwise-dishonest sources or pages. Thank you!

14:49, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Links

Please avoid peppering the article with links to non existant topics. Insert one only if you are seriously requesting someone to provide an article on the topic or if you plan to provide one yourself.

Links & Weblogs

I don't find anything wrong in creating links to non-existent pages because some readers may provide an article with that title. But there is no point in creating links to names of ashram authorities such as Swami Amritaswaroopananda, Ron Gotsegen, Dr. Prem Nair, swami Amritatmananda, Ramakrishnananda and to some of the people who were allegedly murdered in the ashram.

As to links to Weblogs, Personal webpages and public discussion forums, they can be linked to if they are relevant to the topics under discussion and provide additional information all of which can not be accommodated in Misplaced Pages pages. Afterall, how can one differentiate between pages/websites created by ashram authorities for their own publicity and weblogs created by individuals. Atleast the pages created by individuals (some even anonymous)are not for boosting their own images. Yet it is better to have links to well-developed websites than to individual weblogs. Until we have such skeptical websites, let us bear with the existing links.

Charity projects

Who ever removed the references to various charity projects executed by the Asram, can please post some sort of explanation for that please? What ever is our individual opinion about the Amma and Asram, trying to edit away known facts that are accurate is just as bad as lying! Mods please note! Thank you!

• The references to the charity projects are not deleted. One of the users created a new page Mata Amritanandamayi Math and shifted those information to that page. Yet another user shifted the information about the murders in the ashram to the page of Sreeni Pattathanam.

MANOJTV 10:59, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Controversy / Sreeni Pattathanam

The "mysterious deaths" pointed to by Sreeni Pattathanam sound an awful lot like similar assertions made about Bill Clinton by Pat Robertson et. al. Absent any legal findings, it is not appropriate to enumerate such rumors on an encyclopedic page. I've deleted them but otherwise retained the "controversy" section.

• • I agree with deletion of the information related to the alleged deaths in the Ashram as it is already enumerated in Sreeni Pattathanam page. But to say that it is not suitable for encyclopedia may not be correct especially in the context of the awful lot of propaganda material stuffed in the article. Moreover, it is to be pointed out here that the authorities of Ashram has not so far filed a single case agaist the author, eventhough they tried to harass him using the pliant government machinery. And the book, so far available in Malayalam only, is a compilation of articles/reports appeard in a number of dailies published from Kerala. Indianskeptic 12:56, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Why was the controvery section removed in July 2005? In attempting to do research on Ammachi I expected to find such information here. 27 Aug 2005

Ammachi - a trademark!?

The article Mata_Amritanandamayi_Math informs that Ammachi® is a registered trademark of Mata Amritanandamayi Center. Amrithanandamayi's official website www.amma.org also claims the same thing. See the(current list)

This is surprising. Ammachi is a word used by a very large section of Malayalies to address their natural/biological mother. It is not a new term coined by the authorities of Mata_Amritanandamayi_Math. What right this sect has to appropriate this term? Will somebody challange this nonsense in court?MANOJTV 08:41, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• A term doesn't have to be new or exclusive to be protected as a trademark. And a trademark doesn't prevent any Malayalies from using the word to address their mother. It only protects the Mata Amritanandamayi Center from other uses of Ammachi to promote businesses in ways that would create confusion between that business and the Mata Amritanandamayi Center. Similar cases include the registering of the color brown by UPS or the registering of the letter O by Ohio State University. Dystopos 14:58, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• • Thanks for the clarification. But I still have my doubts. I find from the[REDACTED] page brown, cited by the user Dystopos, that it is not the word brown that is registered as a trade mark by UPS, but a specific phrase UPS BROWN. My question is whether the word brown itself can copyrighted? Is it possible for anybody to copyright the word Mother or Mom which are equivalent terms in English for the word Ammachi in Malayalam?

We, Malayalies, will continue to use Ammachi to address our mothers, but does its copyright prevent any of us to use the term even for commercial purposes without any intention of misusing Amrithanandamayi's popularity? --MANOJTV 08:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• • • I was referring to the actual color brown being trademarked by UPS. You can't start a delivery business and paint your trucks brown or give your workers brown uniforms without infringing on UPS's trademarks. Copyright is an entirely different matter, protecting creative works. It is generally not possible to copyright a single word or phrase. The trademark would not prevent you from opening a business called "Ammachi's Rasam" or "Auto Repairs by Ammachi" but it would create a challenge if you mailed out flyers asking for donations to the Ammachi religious movement if it seemed you were profiting by the fame and respect earned by Mata Amritanandamayi and her followers. The legal basis of trademark is not so much a protection for businesses, but a protection for consumers. Dystopos 16:14, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

The picture does not show Mata Amritanandamayi, but someone else, look at her webpage!

That is incorrect; the picture is of Mata Amritanandamayi (Amma) from some years ago. Jim Butler 03:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Changing Amma to Amrithanandamayi

I have changed the attribution Amma from the Main article, to Amrithanandamayi. Amrithanandamayi is Amma for her devotees. For many others, who refer this encyclopedia for information, she is Amrithanandamayi. For instance I can write an article on Jesus Christ. But it is unfair to atrribute him Lord in the article. Please use well known names, official names or first names. Manjithkaini 15:04, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Award

AT least now after the investigation and subsequent controversies about the deals of United Nation's food for Oil programme, now it is easier to understand that award is not a big deal. Only question is "how much?"

Proofreading/English usage change?

In the article, the wording "has sang" (in more than 30 languages) is used. In formal English, the wording "has sung" has been used throughout my lifetime; should it not also be used here? (--Yes, I know many people in the southern United States say "has sang" informally, perhaps elsewhere in the world as well.) --Steve, December 4, 2005

Cleanup

This article needs to be cleaned up to cater to a wider audience. Things like the bhajan and Dharshanssection for example. - (Does the fact that she can sing deserve an entire section?)

Also this article is still very POV, containing (as mentionned above) a large amount of propaganda which is superfluous to the article.

A few things can be changed to clean up and properly organise this article.

• The Miracle section should be renamed something in the nature of "purported miracles"
• The Contraversy section and Criticism section should be merged
• The external link section should be separated into critical and non-critical subsections
• The inner circle section should either be moved, or merged in with another section, the intro for eg.

Please comment on these propositions Sfacets 11:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence about Measles , as AFAIK measles is a contagious respiratory infection (caused by a virus) spread through air. So no hugging is actually necessary for getting infection.Bharatveer 04:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Nonetheless, this is a statement backed up by an organisation on infectuous diseases and was shown on major news outlets in Australia - I will provide more references to pinpoint the hugging issue. Sfacets 05:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

According to Department of Health ,Gov. of western Australia “The measles virus appears to have been introduced by people attending the workshops and has then spread to others within the group who were unimmunised,” .

It never states the measles occured due to "their hugging". The insinuation is that The measles came from Matanandamayi and her followers from india who were not immunised.

SO I am going to remove the "hugging part".Bharatveer 03:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Look at the headlines of the article at . Sfacets 03:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Lets discuss it here.

1.Why do you include Newzealand? Did she visit new zealand too.? 2.None of the references cites any alert or any case of measles in Newzealand 3.The news article that you quote cites the original Health alert issued by Dep.of Health .(gov of Wes.Aus). And Govt. Alert dont mention that it was caused due to " hugging" .A mere news title is not enough to include that in a encyclopedic article.

On 18th April they report 5 cases of measles 18th April Again on 24th April they report 7 cases of measles 24th April Alert Then how come on May5th there are 42 cases .Political gateway

Pls discuss it here before you revert. I am going to remove "new zealnd " & hugging part again.Bharatveer 04:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

1. Cases were reported in N.Z and linked to Amritanandamayi's visit - possibly spread by people attending her programmes. 2. Pending 3. a 'mere news title' is what references are all about - providing reputable sources, of which 'Political Gateway' is part. I added the word 'reported'.

I can only guess that the reason for the increase was that measles spread to other people. It is a highly contagious disease. Sfacets 05:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I have added the details about measles and also the official explanation. I have removed " newzealand" as it is unreferenced. If one goes by your logic , then even names of places like alaska can be added there. Bharatveer 06:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The link you provided, http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/06/stories/2006050604312000.htm is broken, so I removed the sentence you added. feel free to re-insert it when you find another source. I will look for and post a reference showing contagion to NZ ASAP. Sfacets 06:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

sfacets, Link is working fine .So pls dont remove it.(even considering your broken link story to be true, why did youremove the explanation for measles ??? Bharatveer 07:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, when I first checked the link, the site was down. As to the measles explanation, it is both irrelevant to the article, and already featured in the measles article. Hugging would place the faces of the contaminant and the victim, favouring exchanges of the virus. Sfacets 07:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of measles is very important in this context , as hugging is only done by Amritanandamayi.(AFAIK , her followers dont engage in any hugging ritual. So I think that sentence is very much required here; So i am re-inserting that sentence again.Bharatveer 07:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The whole article is still presented in very PoV language, as well as containing PoV material. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no reference to an alleged attempt on her life by an inmate of her ashram. Somebody should supply the details of that incident.Cruxit 04:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Some more specific sources

Feel free to include this in the article however is considered best.

http://www.amritapuri.org/amma/whois.php "In the past 33 years, Amma has physically embraced more than 24 million people."

http://www.amritapuri.org/amma/master.php "In 1995, Amma addressed the Interfaith Celebration in honour of the 50th anniversary of the United Nations. "

http://www.amritapuri.org/amma/un95/un95.php "In 1995, Amma was invited to speak at the United Nations Conference on Visions for the 21st Century, timed to coincide with the 50th Anniversary Summit of the United Nations."

Hope this helps. JesseW, the juggling janitor 08:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Measles - not OR

sfacets, The fact about measles is not OR. And this is not the first time you are trying to remove this sentence .Bharatveer 06:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

As of 6 Nov 2006 none of the links work. Removed paragraph pending finding sources. Seemed like a pretty speculative link, but if it's documentable, sure, put it in. thx, Jim Butler 20:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I have removed all mention of the fact that the measles could have been spread by hugging, and left only the barebones which are supported by the government source. If anyone can find a mirror of the 404 pages, we can re-add the info using links to the mirror. Sfacets 08:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I see that now The Hindu link is working. Reworded and made proper refs. Still, as I said in edit summary, seems a tempest in a teapot -- where is any suggestion or evidence of negligence of Amma a/o her group? If that question can't be answered satisfactorily, why is this under "Criticisms", and why is it notable at all, given that viruses spread all the time via people traveling a/o gathering in groups? Tagging with Template:Content pending resolution. thx, Jim Butler 09:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Include name in Devanagari?

Edit summary here accidentally got truncated. Meant to say: "restore Devanagari, fwiw (Amma's formal name being Sanskrit, though her native language is Malayalam)". Can't find a guideline under WP:MOS indicating whether it's appropriate to cite both, so am erring on the side of inclusion for now. First sentence in current version begins:

Mātā Amritanandamayī Devi (Devanagiri: माता अमृतानन्‍दमयी), Malayalam: മാതാ അമൃതാനന്ദമയി), also known by her followers as...."

thx, Jim Butler 07:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Critical Material

I removed the reference to Paul Zacharia because it appears this information is based on a non-published email that has been circulated on the internet in what critics allege were "threats" located on this page. As one can see, these are not "threats". They are reactions from devotees who were hurt by what they perceived as hateful propaganda by Zacharia. They did not threaten him whatsoever. They simply asked other devotees to write to the newspaper to defend Amma.

Those who add this critical, unsourced material have the burden of providing reputable and reliable sources (as per WP:RS) to back up his/her comments. Otherwise, these comments can be removed at any time by any editor. SSS108 19:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you please link to the statement that indicates that that email was the source of the supposed threat? Otherwise the Hindu will have to be put in. Hornplease 05:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Note that his allegations of the link to the Parivar at any rate, should not have been removed. See .Hornplease 05:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Reinserting tag

THere was a NPOV tag on this at some point. THe article is not sufficiently improved in terms of balance to warrant the tag coming off. Hornplease 10:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Pls list out the Povs in the article.-Bharatveer 10:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I re-positioned the tag, which was moved to the criticism section, as the POV issue discussed here concerns both the criticism as well as followers. Sfacets 10:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Pls explain why you think that the whole article is POV???-Bharatveer 10:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well please explain why you think only the criticism section is POV? Sfacets 10:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, almost all the sentences are referenced.Secondly it means you dont have any reasons to tag the whole article as POV.So I am going to remove that tag.-Bharatveer 11:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)

Do not remove the tag. It's clearly unbalanced and thus violates neutrality; the first para itself has sentences like "From these humble beginnings she began her journey on the path to "universal motherhood", which took her to the United Nations General Assembly, where she addressed the world.", which are clearly non-neutral. Hornplease 11:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the tag needs to stay, and applies to more than just on section of the article. Sfacets 11:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

UserHornplease, what is non-neutral about that sentence??-Bharatveer 13:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)Bharatveer 13:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer, it's the tone. I would replace it with "in the course of her successful ministry, she has had the honour of addressing the UN General Assembly, and .....(something else)." Hornplease 09:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I have replaced npov tag with tone tag.-Bharatveer 09:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Bharatveer 09:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a possible change; but the template merely indicates informality, whereas the problem is one where the tone is clearly admiring and not neutral. Is there another alternative? Otherwise NPOV is what it'll have to be.Hornplease 10:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Since there's been no reply, I'm putting in an 'unblanced' tag. Hornplease 08:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Hornplease - you object to the 'admiring' tone without answering the question: 'What's not to admire?' On the positive side we have all sorts of accounts of her spiritual work as well as her charitable activities (not 'propaganda' and not 'so-called': these are real schools, orphanages, hospitals, boats, tsunami relief housing etc, whose existence can be verified through highly reputable sources such as the BBC, the U.N., and international relief organizations. At least in Tsunami relief the Ashram's record of achievement is actually much better than that of the much better-financed international aid organizations and even governments.)

On the negative side we have, essentially, nothing: a measles cluster that could as easily have happened at a sporting event, scientific conference, or kindergarten, a so-called 'threat' that turns out to be merely a request to write letters to a newspaper, and a third-hand report, based on a book more than twenty years old and unavailable in English, that makes only one specific allegation (regarding the death of her brother Subhagan), and that one extremely implausible. The coroner's verdict of suicide in the case was supported not only by evidence of her brother's very poor physical and mental health but also by a suicide note in his own handwriting.

Of course Amritanandamayi's reputation does not rest on her Misplaced Pages entry. It's more the credibility of Misplaced Pages itself that is at stake here. I understand the temptation to look for the 'dark side' of any modern spiritual movement, but in this case there may simply not be one of any significance: I think the most you could accuse these folks of is perhaps some occasional excessive emotionality. If what is being reported is predominantly positive then I don't think a predominanly positive tone is evidence of bias. I note that the 'unbalanced' tag has an attached note 'Please help improve the article by adding information and sources on neglected viewpoints.' and I suggest that Hornplease either add some well-documented neglected viewpoints or remove the flag —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.229.11.118 (talk • contribs) 21:04, 29 Dec 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you fatally misunderstand the purpose of Misplaced Pages. If you read the article on Mahatma Gandhi, for example, most editors have striven to keep as neutral a tone as possible and avoid sounding admiring. This article would indeed tarnish WP's reputation if it were taken as representative, but not in the way you mean. Regardless of the lady's worth as a person, the article must be seen to sound as neutral as possible, in a manner in which this doesnt. Pending your inderstanding of this, I restore the tag. Hornplease 09:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge request

Should the Matruvani article be merged into this one? Sagsaw 04:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

in favour Teardrop onthefire 10:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

in favour Madmedea 18:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Black Sands

Mention should be made of the radioactive black sands issue under controversies.

Mata Amritanandamayi's ashram is located in the black sands area of Kerala, which has the highest natural radiation of any densely populated area in the world. While middle class Indians avoid the area due to the high levels of radiation in the sands, foreign visitors (including visitors to the ashram) are often unaware of the area's radiation hazard. . The ashram still uses the radioactive black sands in construction and even in a memorial to tsunami victims. . Some devotees teach that it is Matha Amritanadamayi's sankalpa that people don't become sick from the radiation on the beaches. . Scientists are skeptical of these claims. --Dseer 23:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem including this under NPOV, but the sourcing has to be brought up to speed with VER and OR. The Vanderbilt.edu usegroup post, though undoubtedly factually true, doesn't meet WP:RS. The audarya-fellowship.com post about devotees' beliefs is likewise from a BBS, also doesn't meet WP:RS (and at the moment redirects to another forum's index page). What is also needed is a good source stating that the black sand at Amritapuri is the radioactive kind. thx, Jim Butler 06:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Measles revisited

A few months ago, I raised an objection (pasted below) regarding the measles paragraph under criticisms. No answers appeared, but the Content tag I added disappeared along the way. Am re-tagging, and I think the material should be deleted unless someone can show why it's relevant as a criticism.

"... as I said in edit summary, seems a tempest in a teapot -- where is any suggestion or evidence of negligence of Amma a/o her group? If that question can't be answered satisfactorily, why is this under "Criticisms", and why is it notable at all, given that viruses spread all the time via people traveling a/o gathering in groups?"

regards, Jim Butler 06:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It was reported in the media (sources provided) and as such is notable. And the sources do mention that it was spread by Amma and entourage. Sfacets 06:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

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