Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:31, 14 February 2007

It has been proposed below that Old Trafford Cricket Ground be renamed and moved to County Ground, Old Trafford.

The proposed move should have been noted at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves.
Discussion to support or oppose the move should be on this talk page, usually under the heading "Requested move." If, after a few days, a clear consensus for the page move is reached, please move the article and remove this notice, or request further assistance.

please put some pictures of the stadiums on there

Does anyone have accurate capacity figures? Cricinfo says 19,000 but since 22,000 attended in 1999 for a Pakistan match one assumes that the lower number is temporary while renovation is going on. Loganberry 15:12, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. I've emailed Lancashire CCC - let's hope they reply. Kind regards, jguk 16:19, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I have a reply, which reads:

"22,000 for the Test Match, 14,000 for all other games. No development plans announced at present, but some will be announced in next 6 months"

I have added the info into the article, jguk 17:01, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

propose move

I can't help feeling that both "Old Trafford (football)" and "Old Trafford (cricket)" are most unsatisfactory names for these articles. Thus, I propose moving this page to "Old Trafford cricket ground", whilst moving the other page to "Old Trafford stadium". If there are no immediate objections then I will add the relevant tags etc. DJR (T) 21:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Object - these are established, descriptive names and I see no reason to rename them. In particular, the cricket stadium is as much a stadium as is the football ground. There is no such address as Old Trafford Cricket Ground. TerriersFan 02:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I must disagree. The Lancashire County Cricket Club homepage uses "Old Trafford Cricket Ground" as illustrated in the link. In contrast, there definitely is no such address as "Old Trafford (cricket)"! If anything, "Old Trafford Cricket Ground" is more descriptive than "Old Trafford (cricket)". Furthermore, cricket grounds are addressed as "Blah Cricket Ground" - being a member of the MCC I know for a fact that the address of Lord's is "Lord's Cricket Ground" and The Oval is "The Oval Cricket Ground". The football ground could be renamed to "Old Trafford Football Ground" if the use of "stadium" is an issue, but it should be borne in mind that the Stadium is not only used for football, whereas the Cricket Ground is a cricket ground. DJR (T) 18:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The address is here. I see no pressing reason for the change. BTW We have pop concerts and corporate events as well as cricket matches :-) TerriersFan 23:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Djr xi is quite right about the name. It is used in the club's own directions page. If you do a Google on "Old Trafford Cricket Ground", it produces several finds. Bear in mind that the upper case is key to this as a full name. I'll await the result of this discussion with interest. All the best. --BlackJack | 14:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• Compromise suggestion: Old Trafford (cricket ground) and Old Trafford (football ground). This clarifies the purpose of the article without implying that Old Trafford Cricket Ground is the official name. TerriersFan 16:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd be happy with that. It's only the display title after all and the redirects will find it. --BlackJack | 17:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely an improvement on the present anyway. DJR (T) 17:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I see no one has completed the move as per the suggestion above so I'm doing it. An interesting find is this one on the CricketArchive site where the name of the stadium is Old Trafford but its address is Old Trafford Cricket Ground. --BlackJack | 09:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have completed the move by fixing the double redirects. Misplaced Pages:Double redirects refers. TerriersFan 19:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

move page again!

LCCC have finally decided to publish an address that should solve the naming dispute once and for all :

LANCASHIRE COUNTY CRICKET CLUB,

COUNTY GROUND, OLD TRAFFORD

MANCHESTER M160PX

Thus, I propose moving the page to its proper name: County Ground, Old Trafford. Obviously we will have redirects from obvious alternatives. I'll leave this a week to run and if there's no opposition I'll go ahead and do it myself. DJR (T) 11:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Support

• as nom. DJR (T) 11:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
• per nom. -- Exitmoose 06:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

• No-one calls it the County Ground and this is the only useage. The article should use the most commonly used name see WP:NC. Other than Old Trafford, Old Trafford Cricket Ground is used. See the Official ECB page here, Crickinfo here, and other Club useage here. TerriersFan 16:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Burden of proof is on those proposing move, and has not been met. Gene Nygaard 21:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Comments

• If the article were to obey WP:NC then it should be at Old Trafford. "Old Trafford (cricket ground)" is not its name, and WP:DAB illustrates that when disambiguation is necessary between two areas, an official name can be used instead of parenthesis. The County Ground is the proper name for Old Trafford, and it makes sense for the article to take this name and avoid ugly brackets. Furthermore, all links to the ground are pipped as Old Trafford anyway, so it does not lead to any confusion. The first line of the article made clear that "Old Trafford" is its common usage, but this is Misplaced Pages and should be presenting the real names of places, not just those that have become commonplace through general usage. The page should be moved back. Also, WP:RM operates 5-day waiting periods so the move was not entirely premature. DJR (T) 17:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• A better explanation is at WP:NC(CN). That particular page has chosen to use 'County Ground' for reasons that escape me; it is not the official name (if it were the ECB page would use it) and more recent mailing address pages don't use it; see here. The structure of both the cricket and football articles indicate Old Trafford as the proper name with the brackets disambiguating as commonly used on WP. TerriersFan 17:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• Brackets are used when there is no feasible alternative - if there is then it is used. For example, rather than saying "Bromley (London borough)", the page is entitled "London Borough of Bromley". Furthermore, just because the ECB use the ground's common name does not mean it should be used. Take the example of the football ground commonly known as "Highbury". All sources - The FA, UEFA etc. etc. called it "Highbury", but that was simply a common name - the ground's real name was Arsenal Stadium. Given that Misplaced Pages should be striving for ultimate accuracy rather than institutionalising common perceptions, this page should follow the example of Arsenal Stadium. The address of LCCC is "County Ground, Old Trafford", because the ground is called the County Ground. It really is that simple. DJR (T) 00:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Other than the person who put up that mailing address no-one else uses 'County Ground'. As you are, I am sure, I am combing the net to find an official source but everything points to Old Trafford Cricket ground. If you want to rename to that, and the other place to Old Trafford Football Ground, I have no objection; indeed I think that's the best way forward. TerriersFan 05:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Similarly, no-one else uses/used Arsenal Stadium, but that does/did not stop it being its proper name. I'd agree that at the very least it should be moved to Old Trafford Cricket Ground, but given that the most direct source on that matter states its name as the County Ground, I fundamentally feel that it should be moved back there. DJR (T) 12:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
• In addition, English Heritage refer to the County Ground (pdf format), while the address stating "The County Ground, Old Trafford" is repeated countless times from Cricket Clubs Manchester to the Institute of Sales and Marketing Management to the ECB's Q&A on County Cricket. My point is quite simply that there is no reason for the address of the ground to be "The County Ground, Old Trafford" if the name of the ground was anything other than that. Rather than enforcing an informal name, Misplaced Pages should be seeking to provide the most accurate information. DJR (T) 00:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
• The Club have corrected the contacts page so we can finally end this name silliness. The reference here is now in line with the ECB site and also that on their letterhead (which I shall upload soon).TerriersFan 18:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• Moved - DJR (T) 14:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
• Moved back to agreed and compromise heading at last discussion. Also, 6 days is not a week - premature move! TerriersFan 16:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Huh? WP:RM is open for 5 days. Don't know why you are thinking it is a week. Vegaswikian 07:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• Requested moves