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This is why blink-182 is "punk rock" and not "pop-punk".

Ok.

The prefix "pop" is short for "popular". There is no dispute about that.

The Beatles are almost definately the most popular band in the history of music. Would you call their music "pop-rock"?

Eminem and Snoop Dogg are also extemely popular. But would you call their music "pop-rap"?

Would you call Tim McGraw's music "pop-country"?

Or Beethoven's music "pop-classical"?

No, you wouldn't.

If there is a Misplaced Pages page on a musical artist or group, it is most likely at least a somewhat popular artist. So most music is popular in its own right. There is absolutely no need to add the prefix "pop" to a genre to let people know the artist or group is extremely popular.

"Pop" is used to describe status, not musical style.

blink-182 describes themselves as "punk", so they are who we should go by. (See: ] at around the 50 second mark)

If you want to let people know of blink-182's tremendous popularity, that is fine. Just don't include that in their music style. Leave that as "punk rock". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hawkypunk (talk • contribs) 06:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

The prefix pop in this case refers to the style of music, if we refer to the Pop Punk article we will see it says "Pop punk music is more melodic and cleaner-sounding than the original punk rock music of the late 1970s." and refer to the consensus further up the page. --Dan027 11:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Refferring to other Misplaced Pages pages gets us nowhere because everything can be edited by anybody. blink-182 calls themselves punk-rock, so we should go by that, not what other people want to call them. And "pop" is short for POPULAR!!!--Hawkypunk 01:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Pop stood for any popular music in the 1960's but it's evolved to a more distinct genre. Pop-punk is punk sound which has little to no focus on politics and has lighter music. And I don't think they we should go just by what they say, especially since they just said in a passing way and diddn't deny being pop-punk. If a band with say an obvious black metal sound called themselves metal band should we just say their metal because they diddn't mention the black part? And what exactly is your problem with the pop punk article? If it's because anyone can edit it why do you use[REDACTED] at all then?Johhny-turbo 01:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Blink 182 refer to themselves as punk rock on many occasions and never as pop-punk. Thats what we have to go with. Olir 18:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Compromise?

How about we just say pop punk/punk rock as their genre? Johhny-turbo 01:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Is it that important? "Pop punk" means what it's come to mean, and blink-182 falls into that definition. It's difficult to see striking similarities between sum41 and blink-182, and say The Sex Pistols, Bad Religion or NOFX.Artiste-extraordinaire 18:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, blink are not punk rock--Dan027 15:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

WHAT?

They had three albums go diamond?--69.113.131.124 23:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Pop Punk vs Punk Rock Vote

ok after recent edits i would like to propose a vote towards a consensus on what the accepted genre of the band is, vote either Pop Punk or Punk Rock below. --Dan027 06:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Pop Rock

1. Pop Rock -- Grue  09:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Pop Punk votes

1. Pop Punk --Dan027 06:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
2. Pop Punk --Hoponpop69 07:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
3. Pop Punk --OuroborosCobra 07:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
4. Pop Punk --Artiste-extraordinaire 08:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
5. Pop Punk --Jamdav86 13:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
6. Pop Punk --piper108 16:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
7. Pop Punk --Alex 17:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
8. Pop Punk --Inhumer 18:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
9. Pop Punk icelandic hurricane #12 _(talk) 21:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
10. Definitely Pop Punk --JediLofty 15:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
11. Yup, & note that "Pop Punk" is a subset of "Punk Rock" ˉˉ╦╩ 20:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Punk Rock votes

1. Yes - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.27.22 (talk • contribs) 00:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
2. Yes - Due to the only valid primary sources stating they are punk rock. Only secondary sources coming from other listeners ever state they are punk pop. Its fair to say on the article people believe them to be this, but it is false to flat out lie and say they are "pop punk". In my opinion this is an anti-blink 182 charge lead by User:dan027 (as you can see he encourages other users to vote with him, take 'Alex's' page, for example). We need to keep[REDACTED] factual and not opinion based. Olir 17:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment: The comment you refer to was sent out to all recent contributors of the page, disregarding their personaly opinion of the bands genre. A similar comment was left on WikiProject Alternative music, WikiProject Rock music, WikiProject Punk music, and WikiProject Albums --Dan027 08:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Comments

• Pop punk is a subgenre of punk rock. So both belong. WesleyDodds 13:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why you can't have both. --Jamdav86 13:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• I think that the genre should be pop punk/alt rock, because i think that is the best way to describe them. DavidJJJ 17:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
• I think the article should mention that they are are pop punk band with enough elements of pop rock that some people classify them as such. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 18:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
• I lean towards pop punk, but both should be listed. Teemu08 20:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
• Whatever they sayed they were is what we should say they are.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.27.22 (talk • contribs) 00:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
• Listen people - if there is a genre controversy regarding a band, then it's Misplaced Pages's duty to report that - not to brand them with a label reflecting the "editorial majority". Mention the dispute in the lead and provide references which support both claims. Wisdom89 21:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
• Have to agree with Wisdom. List either a broad category or multiple genres for the infobox. ~Switch 02:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
• Bands evolve and so do their music. I think earlier Blink-182 leaned towards Punk rock, Enema and Take Off were Pop punk and Untitled was more Alternative. But Wisdom is correct, all genres should be listed with references included. - kollision 02:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
• It is a complete fallacy to suggest that they are something they are not because a group of 10 or so misinformed people "say so" Why not actually look at what they say. In my edit i have left the only valid sources ive seen on the whole topic. Olir 16:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• I would like to draw your attention to Blink-182's official Myspace, here they list themselfs at Pop/Punk. also user:Olir i would like to draw your attention to three of Misplaced Pages's Official Policys; WP:TROLL, WP:No personal attacks and WP:Consensus, in the event that you havent read over them before. --Dan027 08:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

PUNK ROCK

PLEASE stop this LIE. Don't call them pop-punk. It's an insult to the band. They refer to themselves as punk rock on many occasions, never as pop-punk. Pop punk is a genre simply made up to insult them, based off a couple of melodic ballads such as atst and wmag.

STOP IT. You cannot vote for a lie to become true.Olir 17:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that blink 182 is classified, in my humble opinion, as "BUBBLEGUM ROCK"Jsherbundy 18:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"Pop punk is a genre simply made up to insult them"- wow that's one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard. You must know absolutely nothing about music.Hoponpop69 04:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't make them punk pop. They are punk rock. The band say they are. they are. Podcast 14 of mimynameismark also refers to hoppus being punk rock. Olir 16:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Really, and if the members of blink-182 labeled themselves as folk punk or death metal, would this hold any weight in this discussion? Rhetorical question of course, but the answer is no. The band assuming a categorization is meaningless. Wisdom89 19:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

List of primary sources: Blink 182 are punk rock

Whenever i edit the artice to say blink 182 are punk rock, leaving my sources for all to see, some self righteous twit changes it and delete mys sources along with it. I personally believe customer reviews calling blink "pop punk" is no better evidense then the 10 people who have only ever listen to enema of the state (and probably only all the small things and whats my age again) saying that blink 182 are uniformily "pop punk"

1. - Tom upon describing "Give me one good reason"
2. - At the end tom describes himself as punk rock
3. Apple Shampoo (song: Dude Ranch) - Lyrics describe blink 182 as a punk rock band, playing in punk rock clubs
4. Collin Murray - "in the company of" +44 - The most recent interview of mark hoppus, hoppus and murray refer to hoppus' genre as "punk rock"
5. Podcast 14 of mimynameismark availible at - refers to hoppus being punk rock.
6. - Hoppus and DeLonge refer to themseves as punk

I am constantly finding more relivent evidense, and i will keep adding it. We need to edit this fictional idea that blink 182 can be described as pop punk. Hell, their last album wasnt even punk, how can this false genre labeling stand? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Olir (talk • contribs) 00:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

First of all[REDACTED] relies on third party information, so if members of the band claim to be of a certain genre it is worthless. Second there are hundreds of sources listing them as pop punk, I only put up 4 as to not cluster up the boards. Third you have made ridicolous statements such as "pop-punk was a genre made up to criticise blink-182" or something along those lines so I don't see how you excpect us to take your opinions seriously.Hoponpop69 05:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Firstly pop/punk is not "pop punk" and secondly that page was not created by the band. However I do agree its a more valid source then any produced by you beforehand. I would agree that enema of the state and take off your pants and jacket were pop albums. However, defining blink 182 as uniformally "pop punk" ignoring their eariler albums and their later albums (probably because you and many others just never listend to them) is wrong. It should be changed. The sources i have produced prove this, their music proves it as well. I think a compromise is in order at least. However i do recognise that you are being very stubborn over this issue and refuse to be sensible at this current state of time. I'm working on it. Olir 12:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the pages aren't created by the band, the fact that the band members were the ocne who made the statements make your sources worthless. I'm willing to compromise as long as you find VALID sources.Hoponpop69 19:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, this editorial pissing match really needs an immediate cease and desist. Voting and consensus building are not synonymous. Obviously if a couple of google searches yields innumerable "sources" describing the band as either pop-punk or punk rock then there is dissension within the community. Misplaced Pages was founded on WP:NPOV, which doesn't translate to WP:CITE in order to support whichever moniker you feel is correct - it means ALL angles and sides needed to be mentioned in the article to achieve non-partisanship. The lead and info box need to be updated to reflect this. Alternatively, a subsection could be created to talk about the genre dispute among fans, the derision associated with the term "pop punk", and band's punk rock roots/influences. Wisdom89 19:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally i think wisdom is right, i've been arguing from his angle for a while now, but dan027 reverts anything i write, i think it may be because he dislikes blink 182, even if i just leave it in note form he still deletes it. The only thing he doesnt completely delete are my messages on the discussion board. Anyway soon i will try and write a line or two about the genre dispute if no one gets there before me. Olir 01:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

That's all fine but the fact is that the four sources Olir presviously presnted are all inelgible. I'm all for adding some secondary genres to this page, but they have to be sourced, and can't be quotes from members of the band. If I have some spare time I'll try finding one.Hoponpop69 03:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

i've been arguing from his angle for a while now, but dan027 reverts anything i write, i think it may be because he dislikes blink 182

yes i dislike blink-182 thats why i own all their cds, have seen them live and even seen angels and airwaves live and seeing +44 this week, yes i cant stand them one bit!

even if i just leave it in note form he still deletes it

I revert your notes because of the way you word them, be more polite and direct people to the talk.

The only thing he doesnt completely delete are my messages on the discussion board.

completely? where have i partly deleted what you have said?

Anyway soon i will try and write a line or two about the genre dispute if no one gets there before me.

good, post it to the talk page first so we can discuss it first to avoid further dispute. also please stop refering to me in such negitive ways, what you have said are considered personaly attacks, ive simply brought this issue back up on the talk page because no one else was. --Dan027 11:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You know what you've done, I'm not here for a public row, i'm not here to score points. I just want the genre dispute to be recongnised. However i think it's fair to believe that no fan who has listened to (and owns) all their cds and seen them live would demand they be called "pop punk", bu that can remain my own personal musing. As for the edit, I'm glad we've finally agreed. I'll post it on the talk page when I have enough time. Olir 17:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious what other bands you would classify as punk, and what bands you would classify as pop punk. You seem to have a different viewpoint from everyone else.

I agree with you that some of their songs from their first two albums can be called punk, it seems that the large majority of their catalouge should be considered pop punk.Hoponpop69 18:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, on flyswatter they do covers of punk rock bands, for exmaple. Their earlier stuff on buddah and cheshire cat and to some extent dude ranch is faster, harder and more similar from track to track, its punk rock. then i'd say they had two pop punk albums in enema of the state and take off your pants and jacket. Then obviously their final album is alt. rock. Not punk or pop. So with a total of about 2 1/2 albums out of 6 being pop punk i'd say it was wrong to have a sentence saying "blink 182 were a pop punk band". Especially since the band call themselves punk rockers on so many occasions, yet theres no source with them defining themselves as pop punk. So basically, what i am saying is not to label them pop punk as a uniformal description of all their work. Because right now thats what it is saying. Olir 19:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Dude ranch is mostly a pop punk album, and flyswatter isnt even an album, it's a short demo.Hoponpop69 02:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• green day are much more punk than blink and they are often labelled pop punk. DavidJJJ 20:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Well green day are listed as pop punk, punk rock and alt. rock. Dookie and american idiot for example are totally pop punk, like blink have toyp&j and eots, yet blink are forceablly labeled as only pop punk, ignoring chesire cat, dude ranch, flyswatter, buddah and the untitled album Olir 21:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Dude Ranch is a pop punk album! Flyswatter is a short demo! And I've yet to listen to Cheshire Cat or Buddha (both of which contain many of the same songs) but I'm pretty sure they're both pop punk as well! I'll give them a listen later today. I also did a search for "Blink-182 alternative rock and found no valid sources.Hoponpop69 05:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Read the album booklet. Also, the bands they liken themselves to in that booklet are like pink flloyd, and zepplin, etc. Just listen to it if you need proof, to be honest. I propose that the uniformal statement that they are pop punk be removed as it just doesnt need to be there. Then they can be listed as punk rock/pop punk and alt rock. Then later on a paragraph explaining their genre dispute can be written. Right now its a lie, and people read this for facts not opinion based lies made up by dan027 and alex, etc. sorry to name and shame. Olir 11:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Missing Albums and Demos

Before Chesire cat there were two albums not mentioned on the Discography section. There were "flyswatter", and "chesire cat"

Im sorry that i have no source . but if any one does, i would appreciate it. im new to Wiki so and help would be nice. FuzzyTheGood 18:15, 26 February 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FuzzyTheGood (talk • contribs) 18:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

To answer your question read what it says on the page edit:

Please DO NOT include any other releases (example: demos, EPs, compilations, live recordings, etc.) on this section and this is only intended to list the studio albums of Blink-182's discography. The reason why there is a new page for the discography is that the band has put up many releases other than studio recordings, so this clutters up this article.

You can find the demos listed in the article blink-182 discography.Hoponpop69 05:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Invalid sources given for universal "pop punk" genre label

Not only is their overwhelming sources stating blink being punk rock, you cant even come up with valid sources saying their pop punk even from random users like yourselves!

http://www.last.fm/music/blink-182 - State blink 182 and alt rock, punk rock and pop punk!!! not just pop punk!! http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Travis_Barker.html - Describes Barker as punk (not pop punk), however they loosely mention blink as pop punk, however being an article over the drummer their authority over calling blink pop punk is hollow, whilst it also refers to them as "domniating the alternative rock charts". Not to mention it has been written after the release of enema of the state, their mainstrem pop punk album
http://www.muchmusic.com/music/artists/index.asp?artist=52 - Although it refers to blink as pop punk, it also refers to them as punk rock and says this about the untitled album (supporting the claim that its not pop punk or punk rock:

Armed with this new sense of creative freedom, blink-182's new album is quite the departure from their previous efforts of primarily guitar/bass/drums pop punk rock

This whole thing is completely stupid. How can you people continue with this vandalism? The changes are to be made and stuck with. Olir 12:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

get off your high horse and talk civily to everyone and maybe they will listen to what you have to say, present your case of why they are punk rock, not why they are not pop punk. --Dan027 07:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I've already stated that case quite heavily, now i am stating the weakness of the pop punk case. The article seems to have stuck over the genre issue, which is good. I think it should satsify everyone. Olir 21:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Typography

Should anyone doubt that our Manual of Style for trademarks is applicable for band names, the articles "KISS" and "matchbox twenty" have both been moved with consensus to Kiss (band) and Matchbox Twenty respectively. A notice that Blink-128's name is sometimes given in all-lowercase has been added right to the first paragraph, so grammar rules, style guidelines and purists are all equally being served. Cyrus XIII 13:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all putting in "sometimes typeset" is incorrect as it indicates that only a few people do it that way, thus "commonly written" is correct as it is the common name.Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (trademarks) is a guideline and not a policy. See Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines where it says "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." On the other hand Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (which is policy that is a a list of guidelines) says to use the common name, which in this case is blink-182. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 21:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Yo, the band name is blink-182, not Blink-182!! WereWolf 02:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not going to repeat much of the rationale behind standardized capitalization, since I have already elaborated on this at length during the move request discussions attached to the precedents I previously named. But since you have brought up the issue of common sense, let's talk about that. To me, it is common sense to...

• ...not just take official or fan-driven, but also independent sources into consideration, when assessing whether an eccentric typeset is used "commonly" or "sometimes". Major newspapers, retailers and music networks apparently don't care that much, which bears the question why a general-purpose publication like an encyclopedia should.

• ...capitalize proper names, which kids in English-speaking countries are taught in kindergarten and most other people around the world during their first English lesson.

• ...consider the Misplaced Pages-wide ramifications before calling for the "occasional exception" from a guideline. Which by the way is a rhetoric I probably get like four times out of five when applying certain guidelines to a pop-culture-centered article - you know, occasionally.

Apparently all this is not common sense to you, hence my common sense now tells me, that we should just agree to disagree. After all, I'm just here to fix a minor style issue ("minor" from aforementioned Misplaced Pages-wide point of view), not to have my good faith questioned by having conclusive edit summaries on my part denoted as empty "just because" statements in a borderline-3RR revert war. - Cyrus XIII 03:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, the official band name is "blink-182", not "Blink-182" with a capital B. So why is it up, yo? WereWolf 02:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII, my apologies, the edit summary should have been "Just because (it's listed as sometimes typeset in other articles) is not a valid reason for that particular edit (phrase to be used here)." It was in no way ment to belittle your edits nor question the fact that the edits you were making are in good faith.

WereWolf, good work on helping Cyrus XIII make his points. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 08:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

You know what? Fuck this. Fuck all of this bullshit. I'm done. WereWolf 14:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• I just checked my blink-182 albums and its written as "blink-182". Why should be unmine their naming by effectivly grammar naziing them on their own name whilst writing an article about them. There is no reason for it to ever be written with a b just because "thats what normally happens". Some bands wrte the names WiTh WeIrD choices of case, and you dont see some self important person come and grammar nazi the name, do you?

Proposed edit: blink-182 (written with a lower case B)

this acknowledges the lower case b, and informs the reader its not a typo

Olir 22:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

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