Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:37, 5 March 2007

This article does not cite any sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Find sources: "Fetus" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (August 2006) (Learn how and when to remove this message)

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Fetus. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Fetus at the Reference desk.

Archives
Archive 1 (Feb. 2003 - Feb. 2007)

NPOV

A note - a look at Ferrylodge's contribution's show that his efforts are concerned with promoting a pro-life agenda, not improving the encyclopedia. His edits must be viewed in that light. His edits in this article are designed to show a fetus showing various characteristics at as young an age as possible.

Citicat, first, please try to remember to sign your comments. Second, if you believe that the article is not factually correct, then provide specifics. If there is a particular fact in this article that is accurate, but which tends to support one point of view or another, that is not a sufficient reason for objecting to it. For example, this article states that a fetus may not be able to feel sensory pain until 26 weeks. That fact tends to support a pro-choice argument, but still it is a fact that should not be removed from this article unless someone establishes that it is inaccurate.

Also, as far as POV vandalism is concerned, this looks like a good example. Ferrylodge 15:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I am going to drop out of this discussion now, while you may feel I'm attempting to take the other side of the abortion discussion, I'm actually just trying keep articles adhering to Wiki guidelines. Good luck on your future editing. Citicat 15:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Postnatal pain

References regarding postnatal pain are not appropriate references for the topic of fetal pain. For example, references about pain management are about those already fully developed and born. As mentioned, the topic of fetal pain is controversial. Please use references salient to the topic. Vassyana 01:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I've put a little thought into this, and here is what I think (take it as you will). We should not be doing new research and adding new content and new citations regarding fetal pain here. This article is the fetus article, not the fetal pain article. Per wikipedia's spinout policy, we should have a header titled "Fetal pain" then a template:main link to fetal pain and then 1-3 short, concise paragraphs summarizing the most important information at the main topic article. If we happened upon some very interesting research regarding fetal pain, don't add it here. Guess where you should add it... This way, we don't have a little sentence about X that a reader may want to know more about, so they click on to the main article and find nothing about X anywhere. At the very least, if there is something on topic to a summary of fetal pain you want to add, add it to both articles, giving more depth and detail at fetal pain than given here.

As for the specific topic of postnatal pain, it seems off topic here.-Andrew c 01:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Pain and suffering

I intended to update the article on fetal pain to link pain and suffering, and now I have done so.

Linking to the main Misplaced Pages articles on pain and suffering is totally appropriate here too. It is useful for readers to know that pain and suffering can be distinct, and to understand what each term means. These are not links to articles on "postanatal pain" and "postnatal suffering". They are links to "pain" and "suffering".

Therefore, I would like to restore the following brief paragraph, and ask that we reach a consensus that it is relevant.

Generally speaking, pain may occur without being triggered by injury. Moreover, there are types of suffering distinct from pain.

Faithfull, Sara & Wells, Mary. Supportive Care in Radiotherapy (Elsevier 2003), page 161. Retrieved 2007-02-21.

Burchiel, Kim. Surgical Management of Pain (Thieme 2002), page 253. Retrieved 2007-02-21.

It is not useful to search out and erase everything in this fetus article that may have some relation to postnatal life. This article contains a great deal of information about the adult circulatory system, and differences from the adult circulatory system. This article also contains information on postnatal development. Those aspects of the article have a much closer nexus to postnatal life than the two brief sentences in question.

Thanks.Ferrylodge 02:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I intend on addressing other sections of the article as well. Regardless, I am strongly opposed to the reinsertion of those sources and sentances. If you wish to make those claims about fetal pain, please provide references salient to fetal pain, not to references about adult pain management. On that matter, it would be better to make any such additions to the main fetal pain article, not to this one. Also, you are comparing apples and oranges. You are not contrasting fetal pain with adult pain, you are conflating them. The circulatory section, as you mention, contrasts the fetal and adult systems. Vassyana 02:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you strongly opposed to linking the pain article and/or the suffering article in this article? And will you also strongly oppose linking them in the fetal pain article?Ferrylodge 02:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, I did not see anything in the cited portions of references and that limited the discussion to "adults". Have you noticed something there that I didn't? Where did it say that the discussion did not apply equally to infants?Ferrylodge 02:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Even if they did discuss the treatment of infants, they would still not be salient. Infants are not fetuses. To assert that postnatal experience of any stage is equitable to fetal experience without a reliable source is original research, which must be avoided. Contrary to your note on my talk page, putting forth such OR to present a particular view is indeed a POV push, whether it is a conscious intention or not. Again, if you wish to make claims about fetal pain, please provide references about fetal pain, not postnatal treatment and experience. Vassyana 10:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana, I would be grateful if you would humor me by answering the questions I asked. Are you strongly opposed to linking the pain article and/or the suffering article in this article? And will you also strongly oppose linking them in the fetal pain article?

Also, the two sentences in which those links appeared did not make claims specifically about fetal pain; they made claims about pain in general, including in infants. If you want to assert that the nature of pain (e.g. the possibility of suffering that is separate from pain, and the possibility of pain without nociception) changes dramatically and fundamentally immediately after birth, then you should provide a reference. I say this because it is superstititious to believe that the functioning of the human brain changes as if from black to white at the moment of birth.Ferrylodge 15:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Nope, I do not oppose that all, provided the statements made are neutral and referenced. In fact, I made the changes to this article to accomodate you desire to include those wikilinks. My concern is simply making OR assertions about the nature and substance of fetal experience. This is a very controversial topic and we therefore need to be more vigilant about WP:V, WP:RS and WP:OR. On the last statement, it is intertesting to note that Dr. Derbyshire of the University of Birmingham (UK), who is a noted expert in the processing of pain sensation, states in the British Medical Journal: "This mental development occurs only outside the womb through the baby’s actions and interactions with caregivers." and "The chemical environment in the uterus encourages sleep and suppresses higher-level brain activity necessary for pain perception." So, it is not even entirely agreed upon by researchers and experts whether pain is fully experienced, or even possible, in the womb. Like I said, very controversial topic, so we must adhere closely to standards to avoid POV pushing (intentional or not) from either side. Vassyana 01:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

No, but it does change during development. We researched this quite a bit - I believe it is in the archives of the Abortion article - and the experts diverge considerably on when the neural system is developed sufficiently to register and convey pain. Unless you've found a source which we did not, then that objection to any inclusion of fetal pain - when it begins - stands, as it has not been satisfactorily determined. KillerChihuahua 22:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua, could you please clarify what you mean by "that objection to any inclusion of fetal pain". Thanks. Ferrylodge 22:59, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Anatomic development

Vassyana, I have no problem if you would like to address other sections of the article as well. It might be helpful, though, if we could take one thing at a time, but of course it's up to you. In medicine, there is a longstanding distinction between physiology and anatomy. That's why I thought it would be helpful to divide up this article along those lines. Would you prefer that everything be mixed in together? I'm not sure that would be such a great idea, especially since the article is already divided up (at least to some extent) according to this distinction.

The link "main: prenatal development" should, in my opinion, be changed to "see also: prenatal development". The two articles overlap, but one need not (and should not) merely be a summary or subset of the other.Ferrylodge 02:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I have left the title intact, due to the division you point. I have reverted the link to a main article link, because this is nothing but a summary of information from that page. Vassyana 10:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually, there is info about fingerprint formation in that section that is not in the "main link". Do you advise that we put such additional info into the article at the "main link", whenever we put such additional info into this section? Also, I was hoping to get around to inserting footnotes for the various info in this section, but maybe that's not necessary if you decide to retain the "main link" designation. What do you think?Ferrylodge 15:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I know I can be a PITA sometimes, but I do try to take into account the views of other editors. I am only one among many after all. Actually, I would advise that any additional info that we add here be added to the main link article. It treats the subject in a similar fasion, but in much greater depth. I'd also agree if we keep it based on the main article, we could avoid references here, though we should provide them in the main article. Sound good? Vassyana 00:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

As I may have mentioned elsewhere, I agree with Severa, who said: "I'd suggest developing Zygote, Embryo, and Fetus to include more detailed information on these stages, and then using fetal development as a top-tier hub to summarize those sub-articles (in this case, placing all the 'eggs' in one basket would be a good thing)." Now, it's very possible that she may change her opinion (especially seeing as how I've endorsed it!), but still I would agree that the prenatal development page should be a top-tier hub. Additionally, I really did not see much info about a fetus at prenatal development that is not also mentioned at this fetus page.Ferrylodge 00:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I can see that reasoning. I'm going to solicit the various pages for opinions and see what consensus we can build, if that's cool by you. We can keep the main discussion to Talk:Prenatal development and just direct people from the talk pages of the other three to the dicussion there. Seem agreeable to you? Vassyana 01:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure, that would be fine. But first I'd like to know something. Do you think I'm some kind of "POV-pusher", and if so, why?Ferrylodge 03:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Abortion factoid removed

I removed the abortion statistic for a couple of reasons. It focuses on abortion to the exclusion of other kinds of fetal death. It is a United States-centric factoid. There is no context to the claim (why they were performed, under what conditions, under which laws, et cetera). Taken together, this strongly argues against inclusion. I hope this clarifies the removal. Vassyana 00:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense. I'll leave it removed for now. However, I do not think this information slants the article, certainly not in any political way. Perhaps it might be useful to discuss in the article how often this and the various other types of fetal death occur (e.g. in contrast to the various types of embryonic death). Unfortunately, the statistics may not be readily available for many countries; even if they are only available for the U.S., then those statistics could still give an idea of how often fetal death happens, and why. Must worldwide statistics be presented?Ferrylodge 03:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Reverting

I don’t necessarily have objections to some of the many recent changes to this article, but I do believe that some explanation should be given. Therefore, I've reverted the changes, to give Tuckerekcut an opportunity to explain.

The article was previously structured to make a distinction between fetal anatomy as compared to fetal physiology, rather than lumping everything together. While these two categories are not perfectly distinct, they do provide a way to make the subject a bit more manageable, and a way for readers interested in one aspect or the other to hone in on what they’re interested in. It also provides a framework for further growth of the article. What's the problem with that?

Also, the article previously stated that, at the beginning of the fetal stage, the “heart is beating.” This has been changed to “the heart is contracting rhythmically” even though the cited reference uses the term “beating”. Is there any reason to delete ordinary language, other than to make the article less understandable to ordinary readers? Incidentally, the link to Dr. Spock needs to be fixed. The correct link is this. If the cited article had used the term "contracting rhythmically" then I would urge using the term "beating". As it happens, the cited reference uses the term "beating". Waht's the problem with that?

Generally speaking, I hope there can be some agreement that this article is not being written just for medical students or doctors, and therefore it is not useful to insist upon medical jargon where ordinary language will suffice. This may or may not have the effect of portraying the fetus as human, but the facts should be allowed to speak for themselves, shouldn’t they?

I don’t think that the goal of making this article understandable --- rather than filled with jargon --- should be viewed as a POV issue. For example, one of the leading articles in history defending abortion rights said this: “we shall probably have to agree that the fetus has already become a human person well before birth. Indeed, it comes as a surprise when one first learns how early in its life it begins to acquire human characteristics. By the tenth week, for example, it already has a face, arms and less, fingers and toes; it has internal organs, and brain activity is detectable.” This is ordinary language, and our article ought not go out if its way to avoid ordinary language.

Previously, the article stated: “At the beginning of the fetal stage, the fetus is able to hiccup, generally move around, and also perform isolated arm and leg movement.” This has been changed to: “At the beginning of the fetal stage, the fetus begins to move in distinct motor patterns: bending of the head, general movement and startles, localized movement of the arms and legs, episodes of hiccups, breathing-like movement, and stretches and yawns.” Again, we see jargon creeping in. Why “distinct motor patterns”? Is this the kind of language that a young pregnant woman, seeking information about the fetus, would find familiar and understandable? I realize the cited source mentions “motor patterns”, but the cited source also mentions other terms that are much more familiar.

As far as “breathing-like movement”, it would be helpful to mention its purpose: it is vital for normal fetal lung growth.

Regarding the book by Peter Singer, it states at page 104 that the first brain-stem activity has been observed at 54 days. Why has this been deleted? I can think of no valid reason. Aren’t these the kinds of changes to the article that at least merit a few words of explanation?

Just to be clear, I don’t necessarily object to other changes in the article. I just feel that there should be some explanation. Thanks.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ferrylodge (talk • contribs) 08:01, 28 February 2007.

First of all, I think your tactics here are very poor, and this is why I accused you of bullying in the past to get your edits (or WP:OWN). A lot of these things have only been in the article for a month, and they were placed there by you. If someone changes your wording, or removes it completely, you freak out and revert and the articles stays the way you created it. But if I was to revert to a version before you touched the article, would the article stay the way it was before you touched it, or would you come along and revert. A lot of this new content was never discussed on talk to begin with. Its a double standard to expect that your additions can sit in the article, exempt from a talk page defense, but expect us to defend every single change to the article. What is worse, is you clearly state that some of the changes are helpful, but reverted them anyway because you expect us to give an explanation (when you never did that for inserting this content to begin with.)

I made two of the changes you described above (covered in your second to last three paragraphs). The Singer information was wrong. You said "in the embryonic stage". 54 days is the 10th week, gestational age, which is clearly stated in the next sentence of the cited source. I also added more content from the cited source (first EEG readings, and continuous EEG readings) and those points were given in the week range, so I changed the brain stem activity to the week range so the sentence would be more consistent. 54 days is anyway too exact. Different fetuses develop at different rates and you can't always set you calender to fetal development. For a general encyclopedia article covering general development, using the week notation throughout the sentence is easier to follow, 100% accurate, and following our cited source.

"Distinct motor patterns" is the exact language used in the abstract for that section of the book. It isn't some minor term buried pages within the text. It is the topical sentence describing what occurs. All of those words are fairly simply English words. There is no Latin, no uncommon words. Furthermore, I expanded the section to contain more information and accurately follow the source.

Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. While your POV can be shared on blogs (like ) and here on talk, trying to make[REDACTED] text conform to your POV is not good faith editing. This article shouldn't be another battleground for the abortion debate. We should cite basic college level texts, give a nice encyclopedic overview. Have it professional and sourced. -Andrew c 19:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

To address your comments serially: I was approached by another wikipedian to edit this article, paying special attention to the size/anatomy and physiology timeline sections, and whether that nomenclature was appropriate for the section content. In my opinion it is not. Terms like "anatomy" and "physiology" are not mutually exclusive categories (or at least are so intertwined as to necessitate overlap), and it seems in this article that separating fetal life into these two categories is confusing, especially since they are organized differently and use non-congruent terms (days weeks and months are all mentioned in the anatomy section without explicitly stating a starting point).

I changed the "beating" to "contracting" because the "beating" statement was misleading in two ways. First, I believe that the image of a beating heart is overly reminiscent of a developed beating heart, with associated emotional factors, when the structure itself only crudely approximates an adult heart. Also, the term "beating" suggests that the heart is functionally pushing blood through the body, when really at this stage the ventricles just sacs, and the atria are connected. So while the heart is contracting, it's not really squeezing anything through.

The purpose of this article is to impart information. I feel that some technical words are necessary for precision, and that the answer to this, instead of simplification, is more explanation and more internal linking. Those looking for simple answers can look at the simple English wikipedia.

The quote given above may use simple language, but it is completely subjective. It attaches scientific-seeming words to meaningless coin-phrases. So itt has a face? My watch does too. For most of development, it has phalangeal arches also, does that mean we should say it resembles a fish? And brain activity? That means almost nothing, is it electrical? chemical? metabolic?

I didn't change the hiccup part. And the other specifically mentioned changes must have been from poor cutting and pasting, those were not intentional. /_rekcut 19:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It is troubling to me that we are being forced to respond to this article in such a fashion. This article should be written from a medical, biological, and developmental angle, not treated as though it was a natural extension of the abortion debate. Writing this article by process of reaction is counterproductive and detracts from a real focus on the subject.

I am in agreement with Tuckerekcut and Andrew c. Why are heart function, hiccuping, and movement more worthy of placement in the first paragraph of the "Size and physiology" section of Ferrylodge's version, over other things occurring in the same week, such as nipple and hair follicle development? Of course all those things are encyclopaedic, but, I have difficulty accepting that the inclusion of traits with emotional factors at the exclusion of more mundane traits wasn't a design. -Severa (!!!) 20:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Response to Andrew C.

Andrew C., I will not reciprocate by calling you a "bully", or say that you are "freaking out". However, I will say that you are being unfair. People can read my previous comment for themselves, and see that your characterization is false.

You say, “It’s a double standard to expect that your additions can sit in the article, exempt from a talk page defense, but expect us to defend every single change to the article.” You have reverted plenty of edits that I have made to this article in the past, and the very recent edits have done likewise. All I've asked is for some slight explanation of very substantial changes.

You say, “what is worse, you clearly state that some of the changes are helpful, but reverted them anyway...” That is false. What I said was, “As far as ‘breathing-like movement’, it would be helpful to mention its purpose: it is vital for normal fetal lung growth”. This is a link that I found, because the recent edits did not explain what the purpose of “breathing-like movement” is. Please check more carefully before you assert what I have "clearly state".

Also, contrary to what you accuse me of doing, I never edited this fetus article to say anything about brain activity “in the embryonic stage”. That edit was made here. Please check more carefully before you attribute quotes to me.

What I said in the article was, “Brain stem activity has been detected 54 days after conception.” Singer said: “fifty-four days after conception, when the first brain stem activity has been observed....” I don't see how I could have been more honest about it.

As to whether this article should use gestational age or fertilization age, I suggest that we pick one or the other and stick to it, and be clear about it. Right now the second paragraph very clearly states that “In humans, a fetus develops from the end of the eighth week after fertilisation.” Indeed, people usually say that the fetal stage begins eight weeks after fertilization, so I don’t see a problem with consistently adhering to that method of referring to age. The Anatomic Development section could certainly be clarified in that regard.

Regarding brain stem activity, I think saying 54 days is just as understandable as saying 8 weeks. Unlike terms like "motor development", most people are familiar with days and weeks. The main point is to be clear about what those days and weeks are measured from (e.g. fertilization). You edited the article so it said that “Brain stem activity has been detected as early as the 10th week....” Up until that sentence in the article, only fertilization age had been used, so a reader of normal intelligence would read your version and infer that brain stem activity was detected sometime between 70 and 77 days after fertilization, instead of 54 days as Singer said. Perhaps this is another innocent mistake on your part.

I agree with you that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox for POV. Therefore, as explained above, I find it disheartening that you continue to engage in name-calling (saying I am a “bully” who is “freaking out”), that you pretend there’s something wrong with me asking for any slight explanation of major edits, that you pretend I am guilty of some “double standard” by reverting this article, that you say I have “clearly state” things that I never actually said, that you accuse me of edits I never made, et cetera.

The article on fetal pain says up front: “Fetal pain is a subject of intense political and academic debate. The ability of a fetus to feel pain and suffering is often part of the abortion controversy. Determining the stage of pregnancy at which a fetus is able to feel pain or suffering could have a significant effect on the abortion debate as well as abortion laws and practices.” I think that this fetus article could use a similar statement at the beginning. The facts of fetal development are relevant to the abortion debate. Perhaps that is why you continue to fill this discussion thread with accusations, falsities, and innuendo. In any event, this article should forthrightly say that it’s part of the abortion debate, which of course is tragic, but nevertheless true.

And I submit that "Distinct motor patterns" is not plain English. It is medical jargon. Fetuses do not have motors, so there is no need to use such jargon. Ordinary people will not understand it. But perhaps that is what you are aiming for. After all, the facts of fetal development have been recognized even by staunch abortion-rights supporters like Judith Jarvis Thompson as supporting the humanity and personhood of a fetus: “we shall probably have to agree that the fetus has already become a human person well before birth. Indeed, it comes as a surprise when one first learns how early in its life it begins to acquire human characteristics. By the tenth week, for example, it already has a face, arms and less, fingers and toes; it has internal organs, and brain activity is detectable.” I am not saying that these exact words should be included in this article. What I am saying is that we ought to speak in plain English, since this subject is of more than merely academic interest.

I agree with you that this article shouldn't be a battleground, and I regret that you insist on making it one.Ferrylodge 04:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Severa

Severa, you say you have "difficulty accepting that the inclusion of traits with emotional factors at the exclusion of more mundane traits wasn't a design". You are correct that I separated out less mundane facts from more mundane facts. That is because I do not think that the less mundane facts should be buried. I am not alone in this regard. I quoted above from a book by Peter Singer, in which he emphasizes fetal brain activity instead of nipple and hair follicle development. Surely, you can see that fetal brain activity and brain development is less mundane than fetal hair follicle development, can't you? And what is wrong with separating out some of the less mundane material and presenting it up front? Not only Peter Singer, but also Judith Jarvis Thompson have singled out certain fetal characteristics, and neither of them is pro-life. They simply recognize that some characteristics are more relevant than others to establishing the personhood or humanity of a fetus. You may want to bury information about fetal brain stem activity amidst details about nipple development and hair follicle development, but that would be a POV attempt to hide and deemphasize information that normal readers would find most relevant.Ferrylodge 04:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that some aspects of development are more important, significant to the average reader than others. However, when describing fetal development, we shouldn't cite political activists, ethicists, and philosophers like Singer and Thompson. We should be citing established, reliable medical texts. Using the former as sources is purposely framing that portion of the article within the abortion debate. Perhaps we could have a section on fetal personhood. We could let the activists and philosophers speak there, but that sort of content should not spill out into the medical aspects of the article. I don't want to see specifically pro-choice arguments in the development part of this article any more than I want to see specifically pro-life arguments in that section. But maybe what this article needs is those POVs in their own section (as suggested above, a section on personhood). How does that sound?-Andrew c 21:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

PS. We already have a small section on this. It could use expanding though.-Andrew c 21:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If we're going to use the section on "Legal Issues" to present info about fetal characteristics that may be indicative of humanity, personhood, or the like, then I would think the section should be renamed to something like "legal and moral issues". After all, it's not a "legal issue" if some ethicist says that a young pregnant woman should take certain factors into consideration before she gets a legal abortion.Ferrylodge 03:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

And perhaps the subsection on fetal pain should be made part of the renamed section on "Legal and Moral Issues."Ferrylodge 03:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, a section on "Legal and Moral Issues" might be too broad. How about, "Biological Facts of Legal or Moral Interest"? That way, the article could stick to biology, but have a section focussing on certain biological facts that some people find legally or morally significant.Ferrylodge 03:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC) I've instead added a subsection on "Condition at beginning of fetal stage" which seems to be the better solution. The other sections and subsections can focus on what medical students and doctors might be more interested in.Ferrylodge 07:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted this move because I found myself removing information that was not relevent to the "condition at the beginning". However, I felt that information was important and felt the previous structure worked better. I also removed your study that focused on embryonic cardiac structure in zebra fish. While that study may be important, they do not mention humans once, and the section you placed the info in was the human section. Perhaps we could reword it and place it in the non-human fetus section? I don't see how the creation of the 'beginning' section stemmed from our conversation discussing the political/ethical/philosophical view on the fetus. I think retitling the legal section to "legal and moral.." could be helpful yet, and we could always add more relevent information there. -Andrew c 14:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Andrew C., I suggest we take one thing at a time, since you have decided to revert most of the edits that I recently made. Let's start with the structure of the article. You and Tucker decided that you didn't like the idea of trying to separate out anatomy from physiology. I think that's an unjustified error, but I went along because I like to try to be cooperative. Now, you are also saying that you don't like the idea of trying to separate out the condition of the fetus at the beginning of the fetal stage from developments after that point. This time I will not go along, becuase I think that it is extremely counterproductive. You might as well structure the timeline so it covers week fifteen and then week eleven and then week twenty. I fervently wish that you would try to be reasonable, and not revert edits for no reason. Can't we at least have a subsection in the development section that is devoted to the condition at the beginning of the fetal stage? Is that really asking so much? Wasting all of this time and effort on what should be an extremely straightforward issue is not a wise use of my time or yours.Ferrylodge 16:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I see that you also continue to insist that the human heart is not "beating" at the beginning of the fetal stage, and instead is only "rhythmically contracting." Not one source has been cited for this distinction. There are literally tens of thousands of sources that say the human heart begins to "beat" in the embryonic stage, and yet I can find none that say it does not. Am I supposed to prove that no such sources exist, in order to restore the previous language in this article that the human heart is already "beating" at the beginning of the fetal stage? This is a perfect example of efforts to obscure, distort, and obfuscate scientific facts in pursuit of what very much appears to be a POV political agenda. As to when the heart begins to pump blood, I quoted an article from Science magazine that says: "The embryonic vertebrate heart begins pumping blood long before the development of discernable chambers and valves....The cardiovascular system is the first functional organ system to develop in vertebrate embryos. In its earliest stages, it consists of a primitive heart tube that drives blood through a simple vascular network." There is nothing in these sentences that limits them to Zebrafish, as Andrew C. contends, and instead these sentences are merely restating what is already known. Andrew C., do you have one single source that suggests these sentences do not apply to the human heart? Is not the human heart a vertebrate heart?Ferrylodge 17:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

1. The 'beating' issue was just a sloppy revert. I went out after my first edit and realized I had missed it and didn't get around to changing it back until now. I was hoping I would have made it back to my computer before you came back to the article, but alas.

2. The intro paragraphs to the development section basically are what you are suggesting, just without the headline, and just without moving it out of the developmental section. The first sentence currently is "When the fetal stage starts." I beleive the way we have it now flows into the timeline It mentions a few attributes that are there at the begining and discusses their development and then bridges into the more detailed timeline. Seperating them is odd because we talk about brain activity weeks and months into the fetal stage, we talk about movements that occur weeks into the fetal stage. You can look through the edit history, I tried to remove the content that dealt with things that occured after the fetal stage began, and I was deleting good information just because it didn't fall under your title. This lead me to believe the previous structure was more effectual and would keep relevent information grouped together. As I have always said, I personally am not opposed to the idea of a seperate anatomy and physiology section. We just need to make sure we aren't putting the wrong things under the wrong heading, such as size under physiology. That said, I personally believe its better to talk about the two concepts together. For example, why talk about the heart's size and development in one seciton, then talk about it's function in another section?

3.The zebra fish study. First of all, this is about embryonic development. The journal article is a primary source, focusing on the zebrafish. If this is such a common knowledge fact, I suggest going to a reliable, college level text on human embryology and finding that same information there to cite. I'd suggest "The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology." It has a whole chapter devoted to the cardiovascular system. But again, that chapter almost entirely deals with embryonic development of the heart. I personally feel like it is enough to say "All major structures... are already in place when the fetal stage begins". Adding that the heart has been beating is ok. Adding more information about the embryo's circulatory system from a primary source discussing zebrafish just seems out of place for multiple reasons. We have a whole section already about the fetal CV system. I believe I am being reasonable. I appreciate your efforts to improve this article and back things up with sources. But that doesn't mean I'll agree with every change. Please don't imply that I am being unreasonable because I removed one of your additions (and missed a few things in my revert). -Andrew c 18:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Andrew C., if I make reverts that are unreasonable, then you can call me on it. I would certainly prefer to be called "unreasonable", instead of being called a "bully" who is "freaking out" (as you have called me). Likewise, if you make an unreasonable edit, then I will call you on it. I cannot read your mind to know that you are being sloppy instead of unreasonable.

And speaking of being unreasonable, we were discussing whether the fetal heart is pumping blood at the beginning of the fetal stage. Tucker is the one who asserted that this is a significant issue, not me. But I agree it is interesting and relevant. If a fact is interesting and relevant, and is discussed in a prominent journal like Science magazine, then you say that's inadequate, if the same fact is not mentioned in a "college level text." That is a very unreasonable bias, IMHO. If you look at the abortion article, you will find dozens of footnotes that are not referencing college level texts. College level texts are directed to pre-med students, and focus on aspects of fetal biology that are especially relevant to the practice of medicine. In contrast, there are many aspects of fetal biology that would be of special interest to a pregnant woman or to an average citizem, that pre-med students really wouldn't care about. I will not press right now for inclusion of the article in Science, since you have fixed your sloppy edit, but I will look into the question of fetal heart operation some more, and perhaps will find a source that you will find more "reliable" than Science magazine.

Regarding the intro paragraphs to the development section, there is stuff in there that occurs after the fetal stage has begun. Likewise, there is stuff later in the section about stuff that is already existing at the beginning of the fetal stage. I suggest that we use headings to clear up the confusion. I don't care if the headings go at the beginning of the development section or before the development section, but something should be done to distinguish between what is existing at the beginning of the fetal stage and what occurs later. This should not be requiring a long, elaborate discussion, IMHO.

You say: "Seperating them is odd because we talk about brain activity weeks and months into the fetal stage, we talk about movements that occur weeks into the fetal stage." Andrew C., again I respectfully submit that this is unreasonable. If there is info about brain activity at the start of the fetal stage, then that ought to come first in a subsection about conditions at the beginning of the fetal stage, and brain activity weeks and months later should come later in the timeline. If we're going to have a timeline, then why not use it?Ferrylodge 18:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, please explain to me what the sentence "the fetus begins to move in distinct motor patterns" conveys that the sentence "the fetus begins to move in distinct motor patterns" does not convey. I consider myself a fairly well-educated and intelligent person, but I have no idea. And is there any high school text in the United States that explains to a student what a "motor pattern" is?Ferrylodge 19:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Tucker

As I understand it, one of your primary reasons for merging sections on anatomy and physiology is that those sections used non-congruent terms, namely, days, weeks and months are used in the anatomy section without explicitly stating a starting point. I agree with you that this entire article would be much more clear if we would adopt either fertilization age or gestational age, and stick with it consistently. I would prefer fertilization age, since people usually say that the fetal state begins at 8 weeks. And, fertilization age is more fetus-centric than gestational (i.e. menstrual) age. But regardless of which time scheme is used, I think that’s an odd reason to merge sections on physiology and anatomy.

The other reason is that anatomy and physiology are so intertwined that, the way it was written before, there was much discussion of physiology ("beating", reports of movement describe physiological landmarks, the analogous anatomical terms would describe the shape of the heart, and the size of the muscles) in the anatomy and size section. It doesn't make sense, from an organizational standpoint, to separate them (even if it were to be done correctly). By merging them, the article became more clear to a casual reader, in my opinion

You are either mistaken, or intentionally misstating what the article said prior to your edits. If you look here you will see that the "beating" of the fetal heart was discussed in the physiology section, not the anatomy section. And you have yet to provide any reference regarding your distinction between a "beating" heart and a "rhythmically contracting" heart. The reference currently cited makes no such distinction.Ferrylodge 19:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I mistook the designations to be anatomy/size and physiology timeline, instead of physiology and size and anatomy timeline. My reasoning still holds true though.

Regarding a “beating” heart, you say that that term is misleading in two ways. First, you say that the image of a beating heart is “overly reminiscent of a developed beating heart, with associated emotional factors, when the structure itself only crudely approximates an adult heart.” Also, you say, the term "beating" suggests that the heart is functionally pushing blood through the body, when really at this stage the ventricles are just sacs, and the atria are connected. You say that the heart is contracting, but it's not really squeezing anything through.

Well, this is interesting stuff, and I suggest a subsection explaining these aspects of the fetal heart, with appropriate references. When does the fetal heart start pushing blood through the body? I think that would really be a fascinating thing to have in the article. When does the "beating" begin? I would urge you to please write a subsection along the lines you have described, with appropriate references. The present references say that the heart is beating at the beginning of the fetal stage.

PMID 10705210 (copy paste these numbers into pubmed to see the articles) shows evidence that the four chambers of the heart are only observable in 44% of 10 week feti. 1892198, 11117081 (graph on pg 130 shows tricuspid pk flow at 0 for wk 10), and 1713802 (again, extrapolate to the axis) show 10 weeks as the limit of measurable cardiac output. One of the problems here is that few investigators have bothered to collect data before week fifteen. 9538551 gives an account of some of the difficulties of measuring these things in the first place. Many of these sources do show a linear relationship between cardiac performance and time though, which is why I suggest extrapolation. I realize that I haven't proven my point, and I'm really not interested in wasting any more time on this. 10 weeks is, in my own final consideration, a grey area for appreciable cardiac output. My other objection to the word revolved around the term "beating" being POV; however, since the word is literally equivalent to my suggested term, I accept that either terminology is useable in this case.

It's not clear to me if this means weeks from the first day of last menstrual period, or weeks from fertilization.Ferrylodge 03:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The Pubmed abstract speaks in terms of "weeks of gestation" so I assume it means weeks from first day of last menstrual period. So, there is measurable cardiac output at the beginning of the fetal stage. Interesting. Thanks for the link.Ferrylodge 03:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the purpose of this article is to impart information. If some technical words are necessary for precision, then I would suggest plain English summaries. You criticize a quote that you say is “completely subjective.... So it has a face? My watch does too.” I’m not sure which quote you are referring to, but the article presently uses the word face only once: “The face is well-formed and develops a more human appearance”. That sentence was also in the version that you and Andrew C. produced. I did not write that sentence. So, I don’t feel like I should have to defend any sentence that you think is “completely subjective.”

There is a distinct difference between stating the presence of a face, and describing a face. Some would say that a 5 week embryo has a face, and the "head end" of an embryo does in fact have structures which resemble those of the human face. However the part that looks like a mouth turns into the trachea and neck, and the part that looks like the nose turns into the palate. The statement that you cite in the article could be more clear, but it is far better to describe the face (well formed) than do state it's existence. The phrase that I was discrediting was the one provided by you, in the above talk section.

Perhaps you could quote it sometime. Was it something that I was suggesting should be inserted into the article?Ferrylodge 19:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

"I don’t think that the goal of making this article understandable --- rather than filled with jargon --- should be viewed as a POV issue. For example, one of the leading articles in history defending abortion rights said this: 'we shall probably have to agree that the fetus has already become a human person well before birth. Indeed, it comes as a surprise when one first learns how early in its life it begins to acquire human characteristics. By the tenth week, for example, it already has a face, arms and less, fingers and toes; it has internal organs, and brain activity is detectable.' This is ordinary language, and our article ought not go out if its way to avoid ordinary language."

As I previously said to Andrew C., "I am not saying that these exact words should be included in this article." This article presently says "The face is well-formed," and I agree with you that that is a better phrasing (still using ordinary language).Ferrylodge 04:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I do appreciate you coming here to work on the fetus article. I hope you will stay and help get it into better shape, e.g. by elaborating about the fetal heart and when it starts to beat. I hope you didn't take offense when I requested an explanation of your edits.Ferrylodge 05:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not offended, however I would encourage you to consider that your opinion of how this article should be written carries only the same import as my own, and that of Andrew C. It is clear that I am more knowledgeable when it comes to fetal development, anatomy, and physiology than you. It is also reasonable to assume that your political and moral views preclude you from approaching this topic objectively. Perhaps you will consider these things before erasing my efforts in the future. /_rekcut 18:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Tucker, I don't see why my opinion should carry as much weight as your own, if it is clear (as you contend) that you are more knowledgeable when it comes to fetal development, anatomy, and physiology than I am, and if it is clear (as you contend) that I am precluded "from approaching this topic objectively." However, neither of those things is clear to me. What is clear to me is hardly printable here.Ferrylodge 19:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Your posts in general are just as important, Andrew. Indeed you probably have more experience writing in full sentences than I do. When it comes to organization and layman's terminology your input can be useful. I believe that my understanding of the discussed topics is superior, but an encyclopedic article takes more than just scientific knowledge./_rekcut 00:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Ferrylodge, I want to commend you on how civil you were in the above. While I did sense a little sarcasm in your 2nd round of replies (which may be warranted when someone basically tells you your opinion isn't as important), your tone has improved and you don't come off as harsh and abrasive as in the past. Good work! I'm not opposed to having separate physiology and anatomy section, but we'll have to do better at keeping the right stuff in the right sections (size clearly belonged in anatomy). However, because there are grey areas between the disciplines, it may be more holistic to discuss them together. If we are having a hard time keeping the two concepts separate, how do you think your average reader will take that information? So while I wouldn't oppose have 2 well written split up sections, I personally favor the combination. We already have a section on fetal circulation, so perhaps we could add information on fetal heart development there? If the suggested information is true, the use of the word "beating" may be misleading, but we'll have to see what the sources say. If we start filtering our sources too much, it may run into original research. As for technical language, I think there is a fine line. We should be professional and not dumbed down, but avoid thick jargon. So "kidney function" instead of "renal function", but "abdomen" instead of "belly". I'm not exactly sure if there is a specific guideline, but I believe we should write on at least an upper high school level, and leave the plain talk for the Simple Misplaced Pages. Finally, I prefer gestational age because of the source I read that said always use gestational age. However, I have come across texts on fetal development that do use fertilization age. So I have my preference, but wouldn't oppose either (I would support making it clear which one is to be used, and then using it throughout). I think I touched on everything.-Andrew c 21:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Frustration

I would like to contribute to this page and make it more useful. However, the most obvious and basic points about how to write this article remain unresolved. There has been no agreement that this should be a main page for developmental info about the fetus, and that the prenatal development article should summarize what's at this article. This seems like a very easy point that could be agreed upon, and yet there has not yet been any agreement.

Nor has there been any agreement on the basic point that material about the condition of the fetus at the beginning of the fetal stage should be clearly presented as such, with a heading or subheading to that effect. This would make the article much more manageable.

Nor has there been agreement that there can be material in this article from sources other than college level texts. Not only pre-med students, but also ordinary citizens as well as young pregnant women can be expected to read this article. Many articles, such as the abortion article cite references other than college-level texts. Many ethicists and philosophers, including pro-choice ones like Peter Singer and Judith Thomson, have tended to mention aspects of fetal development that are not mentioned or stressed in pre-med textbooks, because those textbooks focus on information pertinent to medical treatment.

This article was previously structured in a way that distinguished between physiology and anatomy. That was changed, because one editor claimed that gestational age and fertilization age were being mixed up. Gestational age and fertilization age continue to be mixed up in this article, but of course that has nothing to do with any distinction between physiology and anatomy. The other main reason for dropping the distinction between physiology and anatomy was that the anatomy section contained info about the beating of the heart, but actually that info was properly in the physiology section. Anyway, I will not object to the insistence of some editors that this article not be structured to distinguish between anatomy and physiology, because it's not a huge issue affecting the clarity of the article. However, I would ask that we please agree to use fertilization age, with a link to info about gestational age.

So, if there is no objection, I will proceed on the basis that this will be the main article for developmental info about the fetus, and that the prenatal development article will summarize what's at this article. I will proceed on the basis that material about the condition of the fetus at the beginning of the fetal stage will be clearly presented as such, with a heading or subheading to that effect. I will proceed on the basis that material in this article can be from sources other than college level texts, with a preference for sources that are available online. I will proceed on the basis that the article will not be structured to distinguish between anatomy and physiology. And, I will proceed on the basis that we use fertilization age consistently, with a link to info about gestational age. I think it would also be helpful to proceed on the basis that medical jargon should not be used gratuitously, and I will do so.Ferrylodge 22:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

I posted a {{neutrality}} tag on this article, feeling that the already existing discussion would be enough of an explanation. Ferrylodge removed the tag citing I did not cite what I felt was factually incorrect. So, I'll give an explaination as to why I put the tag on. I feel that Ferrylodge has and continues to use this page to further his own agenda on abortion. His feelings on the subject can be seen in this article and this one both of which have been authored by him. I see his focus on this article as showing a fetus as a person at as early a gestational age as possible. He will delete edits which conflict with his. As he has made 216 edits on the main article and 101 edits on this talk page, I cannot quickly summarize every change he has made and every debate his has entered. I do not necessarily say that Ferrylodge has entered any incorrect information, and I am not stating what his exact position on the abortion debate is, only that his edits on this page are not WP:NPOV. Again, this tag only asserts that the article may not be neutral in it's viewpoint, not that any information is factually incorrect. Citicat 02:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Citicat, it is very telling that you point to not one single edit or group of edits that I have made at this Misplaced Pages article. Instead you resort to pointing at things that I may have written entirely apart from Misplaced Pages. I'm sure that if I knew your real name, and had access to all of your writings, I might find something that demonstrates you have opinions about a lot of things, perhaps even including an opinion about abortion. However, such writings of yours would be virtually irrelevant to whether you insert your personal POV into Misplaced Pages articles.

The only thing you say that comes close to being a plausible grounds for criticism of my work on this article is this: "I see his focus on this article as showing a fetus as a person at as early a gestational age as possible." If there is medically and biologically accurate information that tends strongly to support fetal personhood from the beginning of the fetal stage, then I am against suppressing it. If that information is deleted, then I will restore it. Ordinary people are interested in this type of information. Even prominent pro-choice supporters like Peter Singer and Judith Jarvis Thomson have cited this exact type of info, when discussing when a fetus should be considered as having rights or personhood. They are not afraid of the facts.

The abortion controversy should be based on accurate facts, and I am very troubled by your suggestion that facts should be suppressed at Misplaced Pages if they tend to show a fetus has qualities of personhood at an early gestational age.

Because you have not attempted to "clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why", the tag is not appropriate.Ferrylodge 02:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The point is when I have a strong feeling about a subject, I either avoid editing articles on that subject, or try to stay as neutral as possible. You probably will not believe me, but I do not have a strong problem with your position. I don't agree exactly, but again, that's not the point. I also feel when you edit an article such as Roe vs. Wade, people reading the article would expect that points of view likely will be expressed. However, people reading this article are looking for scientific information, and will treat the article as fact. The main stated fact I feel may be questionable is the start of brain-stem activity. The book you site (Rethinking life & death: the collapse of our traditional ethics) is not written by a scientist, but by a philosopher. I am not saying the fact is wrong, but arguable. Also I would question the inclusion of the "fetal pain" section. The article even mentions the subject is controversial, and I would think the only reason for its inclusion is to influence people against abortion. Anyway, maybe I'm wrong. I won't restore the tag for now, instead I will look for consensus from other individuals. Citicat 03:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

CitiCat, Peter Singer is a world-famous bioethicist at Princeton University. Moreover, he is not only pro-choice, but pro-infanticide as well. You're saying that I inserted info from his book to slant the facts in a pro-life direction? You'll have to do better than that. Facts are facts. Singer thinks that the facts are significant, and I do too.

Regarding the section on fetal pain, there is an article titled fetal pain. Are you saying that this fetus article should not mention the fetal pain article? Another editor started the description of pain in this article (see here). It was expanded from there. The ability of a fetus to feel pain is just as interesting biologically as any other aspect of a fetus, and perhaps more so. The discussion here is very brief, and merely summarizes info from the main article.Ferrylodge 06:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Requests for comment

I am commenting in response to the request made by Citicat. I have read only the two sections of the talk page above this, but already it appears problematic that Citicat wants to declare another editor's edits as "POV" without any specific explanations. Not every edit needs to be cited, but a representative few are absolutely necessary for all editors to examine in arriving at an NPOV consensus. Until the POV edits are specifically pointed out, I oppose placement of a {{npov}} tag. --Ginkgo100 03:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't followed the above discussion yet, but, I'd be willing to second Citicat's NPOV concerns. I think the POV issues in this article are rather subtle, but still a definite issue, so it will take us a little time to lay it all out. -Severa (!!!) 03:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I will mention onePOV concern, which is the size of the illustration, intended to immediately give an emotional effect. The human hand does serve to indicate the size, but so would a ruler. . DGG 04:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

An adult human hand is a POV problem? If the size of that photo is decreased, the already-small image of the fetus would be barely discernable, and the extra space created (to the right of the table of contents) would merely be blank. Respectfully, I do not think the photo is a POV problem. An adult hand is just as NPOV as a ruler, IMHO.Ferrylodge 05:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a note on that photo - It was uploaded to the net by Bill Davenport who is the exectutive director of the Valley Care Pregnancy Center, an organization devoted to preventing pregnant women from having abortions. Make of that what you will. Citicat 06:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it was uploaded by me with Davenport's permission, after I came across the picture here. And I support the right of a woman to get a safe and legal abortion for whatever reason she chooses up until the fetal stage. And Peter Singer (whom you think should not be cited in this article) thinks abortion should be completely legal for all nine months. All of which is completely and entirely irrelevant. Please, CitiCat, try to stick to the article and facts presented therein, instead of trying to use innuendo. Thank you.Ferrylodge 06:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You misread my statement. I said it was uploaded to the net (as in internet), not to Misplaced Pages, by Davenport. The is a question as to whether this picture was placed here for psychological impact, and I feel the source of the photo may be relevant to the discussion. Citicat 12:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

(Undent) A picture of a plastic model of a fetus isn't helpful to the article, especially since it's not a particularly good model. Ceci n'est pas un foetus. The hand gives no sense of dimension, is distracting (especially given that my eye is drawn to the shiny, gold wedding band, not the model), and, frankly, the undertones of the composition are something which one might expect to find on a poster or on the cover of a pamphlet. In short, it isn't encyclopaedic.
If you can compare the version of the article from 05:26, 9 December 2006, before Ferrylodge began editing this article, to the current article, you can see the dramatic changes which have occurred since. The particular points of NPOV concern in this article have been noted in detail by several users, including myself, Andrew c, and Citicat, and have been noted above (parts of it which are now in Archive 1), but here's a summary:

• Wording in the "Development" section was, at one time, copied verbatim from a blog post written by Ferrylodge on an advocacy site (see thread, "Recent content").
• The content in "Development" diverges significantly from that at the article fetal development and could be perceived as a POV fork (see thread, "Recent content")
• "Development" is composed of a motley assortment of sources, many of them non-academic, when citing one college-level text book would be a lot better (see thread, "Recent content").
• Certain traits in "Development" seem to have been intentionally selected to convey a specific point. -Severa (!!!) 16:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)