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Armenia B‑class

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Talk:Nakhichevan/archive Talk:Nakhichevan/archive2 Talk:Nakhichevan/archive3 Talk:Nakhichevan/archive4 Talk:Nakhichevan/archive5 Talk:Nakhichevan/archive6 Talk:Nakhichevan/archive7 Talk:Nakhichevan/archive8

I see Misplaced Pages is much of a game for Grandmaster as it is to Adil

Now, lets see what argument will Grandmaster provide for the deletions of the quotes and sources. What happened there, why were the discussions archived? If you really want to push this further Grandmaster fine, I will be adding all the relevent Armenian deportations from Nakhichevan. I am also waiting you to explain your silence over what Adil has done on the NK article, I requested two times any answers, you have not given any. Fad (ix) 07:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

We reached a compromise on this. If you want to push for your own version and add irrelevant quotes, I suggest you apply for dispute resolution. The page only recently has been unprotected, so no need to start another edit war. If you feel that you are absolutely right with your claims and have enough sources to back them up, try to follow the relevant procedure, and I will be glad to cooperate with any dispute resolution. Also, remain civil. Grandmaster 08:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Grandmaster and I already reached an agreement on Shah Abbas incident and I don't see a point in pursuing the issue any further. I still disagree with with inclusion of the HRW line regarding the Karki dispute, but I'm too busy right now to discuss it as I'm caught up in a dispute over the Qazakh article (it's a 1:3 ratio - it's Adil, Dacy, and Atabek against me). So, I suppose it can stay for now, but we may revisit it later. -- Aivazovsky 14:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Aiv, if you follow the discussion a little further, you will see that there is actually a reason of pursuing the issue further. Grandmaster was well aware that I was going to expend the section, regarding Julfa Armenia’s being send to China etc. Don’t you see anything wrong in the article? Check from the first to last. Grandmaster with others have successfully able to guard and posses the article, and this article sanitised from anything Armenian, when this article at least worth to have an entire section about the Armenians in a history section.

Have you read the article lately? I have searched the entire thing and the term "Armenia" is mentioned 137 times (counting references, external links, and image captions). If truth be known, since this summer, I have been the one paying the most attention to this article. I have worked hard at compromises, etc. Obviously, this article is not "sanitised from anything Armenian".

No one in the academia besides ultra nationalist Azeri scholars denies that the term Nakhichevan is an Armenian word, I have even quoted from an Islamic work on that regard. The first mention of the term Nakhichevan, or to its any flavour was used by Khorenatsi, hundreds, hundreds of years before the supposed Persian word Grandmaster injected in the lead. Maybe you can answer me there, how could a word used hundreds of years after could have any etymologic relevancy?

Fadix, It is quite possible that Nakhichevan derives from Naxuana as article correctly hints. The oldest mentioning of Nakhichevan goes as Naxuana, mentioned in Ptolomy's Geography in the 2nd century AD and other classical sources . The article on Armenian language shows the formation of Classical Armenian language in the 5th century AD . Anything before that is shady and is referred as Proto-Armenian or Graeco-Armenian hypothesis Now explain to me how can Naxuana at least from II AD be in Armenian of V AD? May be it would be more correct by you if you claimed that it might be from Proto-Armenian? --Ulvi I. 18:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...we may need to look this over again. I was beginning to rethink that as well.

Coming to what you claim doesn’t worth pursuing on. The very large majority of sources only relate to the Armenian depopulation, and I have documented already that it was not the first; there are scholars who think that Abbas depopulation was just a continuity of hundreds of years policy to depopulate Armenians from their homeland. The reason why the Armenian part was separated was because I had the intention to expend. Yet! Being ‘fidele’ to himself (from the French expression), Grandmaster successfully mixed the batch, when it is policy and guideline here to give special coverage to the position most documented in the academic circle.

If you have sources that indeed state that the Shah administered a continued policy of Armenian depopulation in the region, then please cite them.

I will leave this as that, because from experience I know that Grandmaster is allergic to the word Armenian. But here is what I am going to do, I will add a section on Armenians. Fad (ix) 18:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a point in adding a seperate section on the Armenians when the Armenian history is already well-integrated into the article. If you feel that there is something you want to add to the history regarding the region's status within Armenia or its relation to the Armenians, then you're more than welcome to do so, provided that it is well-cited and referenced. -- Aivazovsky 18:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Over the centuries, the highly unstable political situation in the region, the large-scale displacements of the Armenian population and the penetration of Turkic nomadic tribes resulted in a dramatic transformation of the ethnic composition of the region and its cultural landscape. This quote is from Saparov. The work already provided.

The deportation of the Armenians, which already begun in the 1530s under Tahmasp I, should be viewed as part of a master plan by the Safavids to create a countervailing power against the feudal Qezelbash.

Herzig work on the deportation of the Armenians from 1604-1605 entire thesis is centered on the Armenians being the target, the countless numbers of sources I have provided center it on the Armenians. In fact, check Jstor, all the hits on that database regarding Shah Abbas depopulation centers around the Armenians, the only other relevant paper includes Georgians.

One of the positions, like those above is that the depopulation of the Armenians under Abbas was just part of a policies extending for centuries. A. N. Yamskov, (Oct., 1991), also in his paper relate to the demographic change after the replacement of the entire region with Turkic tribes.

Grandmaster would jump on the supposed mass settlement of Armenians by the Russians after 1820s, when for centuries the Armenians have been evacuated and replaced, yet the one single reference about one of the cases, resulted with Grandmaster long fight over it, while I told him that the reason why they were separated was because according to guidelines and policies, the majority position pass before anything else, also that I already told that the Armenian depopulation would be expended.

You say there is enough reference to Armenians? Aiv, why do you think that they are guarding this article so hard? It is because there is no argument on Abanians there, no any supposed Albania having ever been build on there. This place has a very long history of being one of the heartlands of historic Armenia. All of its historic nearly exclusively before the Turkic tribes came was Armenian, and this before the centuries forced removal of population. Now that there is no such supposed Albania argument, the best thing for Grandmaster to do is claim Armenians were not a majority, dismissing the relevancy of it being right on the Armenian plateau. Throwing other peoples in every given mention of Armenians.

Check the etymology thing, the myth about Noah, I don’t believe on Noah or other such religious stuff, but all those stories on mythological bases for the name, or the name itself, is admitted by everyone beside some ultra-nationalistic Azeris scholars, to be Armenian history. The etymology is recognized as Armenian. Khorenatsi and all manuscripts were pre-Arabic Islamic era, and the Grabar form of the exact word Nakhichevan was there, existing plainly written on Armenian manuscripts, how a word just appearing few centuries after, with a different etymology be of any etymological relevancy.

Check what is happening on Paytakaran article, Grandmaster is at war on every Armenian historic places articles. He didn’t wanted any mention of Armenian being a majority in NK, pre Russian rules, Adil came and placed his distortions and someone stole Grandmaster thong, I told him to comment a couple of times no. But he will be the first to revert non distortions on NK population claiming them to not be relevant. Fad (ix) 22:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Ottoman Tax Registrars as source to study demography of Nakhichevan in early 18th c.

I suggest to use Ottoman Tax Registrars covering 1724-1727 to study the ethnic composition of not only Nakhichevan, but also Gandja-Karabakh, Lori, Irevan and etc. when these territories became under control of Turks. As far as I know Armenian and Georgian scholars have started to study this source even earlier than Azerbaijani ones did it in 1996 and onwards. There is said to be also Safavi Tax Registrars dating back to earlier centuries, however, I have not seen any editions or translations of them. Starting from these days, I will cite info on ethnic composition of Nakhichevan, and especially Julfa, which is very interesting. I think those that claim that Moslems returned after 1604 deportations, but Armenians did not, are jumping ahead and to wrong conclusions. If someone from Armenia who is aware of this source's Armenian edition and want to cross-check their version with mine, that would be very nice. These tax registrars registered all adult men (above age 14), be it Muslim or non-Muslim who were supposed to pay tax. It goes to village by village, mentions each name of such an adult. It also shows which non-Muslim villages were already converted to Catholisism by the Ottoman's ally in those days - the French and their religeous missionaries.--Ulvi I. 18:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

They are pre-Ceride-i Nüfus Nezareti(1831), with no centralisation. And above all, they're over a century after Abbas. Pre-Ceride-i Nüfus Nezareti aren't even used for central Anatolia. For NK, we already have the official census of 1820s. Fad (ix) 02:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

What we know though, is that the Ottoman recorded 2,4 million Armenians in Anatolia in the 1840s, mostly Eastern Anatolia, but past where Safavits were one time on another in power, the Armenian population was insignificant, there was a huge 'whole.' Without Abbas, clearly Nakhichevan would have been populated by its majority of Armenians, it is on the innerside of the plateau bordering the Ottoman, on the other side of the frontier Armenians were constituting a majority. So definitly the depopulation of Armenia by the Safavits is what made the demographic change. Fad (ix) 02:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Rail service

This is the reference Eupator deleted:

The disruption of rail service to Armenia was actually facilitated by the Armenians themselves: Armenian forces launched attacks on trains headed through Armenia en route to Azerbaijan's Nakhichevan enclave; consequently, railroad personnel refused to enter Armenia at all.

Thomas Ambrosio. Irredentism: Ethnic Conflict and International Politics. ISBN-10: 0275972607

I'm restoring the reference back. Grandmaster 05:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have more than one reference to reaffirm this? -- Aivazovsky 21:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure:

In June, Armenian activists began a rail blockade of Nakhjivan, the Azerbaijani region cut off from the rest of Azerbaijan by Armenian territory.

August and September saw huge APF-led rallies in Baku, and in a reflection of its increasing radicalization, the APF also helped organize a retaliatory rail blockade of Armenia, severely hampering Armenia's ability to recover from the earthquake, not to mention engage in normal economic activity.

Azerbaijan's Communist Party First Secretary Vezirov tried at first to ignore the APF, but events quickly spun out of his control. In response to the pressure, Vezirov's leadership began accommodating the APF's nationalist ambitions with a package of laws to increase the Azerbaijani Republic's sovereignty, including an assertion of the right to disband Mountainous Karabagh's autonomous status. In return, the APF was to have lifted the rail blockade of Armenia, but it found itself unable to deliver on that promise, in part because Armenians resumed attacks on Azerbaijani train crews entering Armenia, who then began refusing to do so.

The newly formed Armenian National Movement tried to slow the escalation by ending the attacks on Azerbaijani trains, hoping the rail blockade of Armenia would also be lifted, but its supporters did not comply: the logic of conflict was now stronger than the logic of self-interest.

Stuart J. Kaufman. Modern Hatreds: The Symbolic Politics of Ethnic War. ISBN 0801487366 Grandmaster 08:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

So according to Kaufman Azerbaijanis actually retaliated by blockading Armenia for blockading Nakhichevan. I will try to find more sources on who started the blockade, but it is clear that my recent edit should remain in the article. Armenians did attack the trains. Grandmaster 12:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Aivazovsky, shall we ask for unprotection of this page now, so that I could restore my edit? What do you think? Grandmaster 12:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

You have two references, I don't see an issue. You can request unprotection as long as you promise to readd this and not anything of Adil's. -- Aivazovsky 12:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I will readd my edit only, but I think that Adil's edits also have a place in the article. Grandmaster 12:19, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

"In June, Armenian activists began a rail blockade of Nakhjivan, the Azerbaijani region cut off from the rest of Azerbaijan by Armenian territory." Um, the citation writes "Audrey Alstadt The Azerbaijani Turks, p. 206 ", can we have someone else corroborating what Ambrosio says considering the issues raised about Alstadt by some editors and Bournountian?--MarshallBagramyan 23:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not add that part to the article, I added the one that states that Armenians attacked Azerbaijani train crews, which is not referenced to Alstadt. Grandmaster 05:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

ethnic origin of dynasties; Euro Parliament resolution

The Orontids and Artaxiads were Persian in origin, while Arsacids were Parthian -- these facts should of course be reflected in this otherwise very detailed article. for proof see for example: , , . Also related: , and . "The Orontid kings of Armenia were descended from the Achaemenid line" . Then there is here: "The Royal Hunt in Eurasian History", by Thomas T. Allsen, Univ of Pennsylvania Press, 2006, p. 37: "The Orontid dynasty of Armenia (ca. 401-200), whose ruling house was of Achaemenid origin...". Also, "This Orontes was married about 401 B.C. to the Princess Rhodogune, daughter of the Persian Great King Artaxerxes II." The Cambridge History of Iran By Ehsan Yarshater, Cambridge University Press, 1983, p. 506. Also, here "Artasyras, the King’s Eye, brought the news of Prince Cyrus' death to Artaxerxes II, and Artasyras's son Orontes who had been present (and perhaps distinguished himself) at the Battle of Kounaxa and was given Rhodogunde the daughter of Artaxerxes II and made Satrap of Armenia. In the late 380s after Persia had suffered serious reverses in Egypt, Orontes was recalled from Armenia to head the Persian army while Tiribazes commanded at sea. They quarreled and their case went before a court of four Persian nobles who found for Tiribazes with Orontes being disgraced and dismissed from his position as Satrap of Armenia. In the 360s BCE several of the Persian Satraps revolted and chose Orontes as their leader. However he betrayed them to the King and made peace with General Ochus. Orontes was then reappointed as Satrap of Armenia and became the founder of the autonomous Armenian Orontid dynasty."

"The expression "kings of Armenia" is in many instances vague, and leads to erroneous conclusions, especially with regard to the Arsacidae. The trans­actions of the Romans with Armenia will present much less difficulties if the student will remember that he has to do with kings in Armenia, and kings of Armenian origin reigning in countries beyond the limits of Armenia. The history of the Arsa­cidae cannot be well understood without a previous knowledge of the other dynasties before and after that of the Arsacidae; for Armenian kings were known to the Greeks long before the accession of the Arsacidae ; and the annals of the Eastern em­pire mention many important transactions with kings of Armenia, belonging to those dynasties, which reigned in this country during a period of almost a thousand years after the fall of the Arsa­cidae. But as any detailed account would be out of place here, we can give only a short sketch." (Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0370.html)

Then on: http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0371.html :

"On the other hand the Romans, with all the pride and haughtiness of conquerors, consider their instruments or allies alone as the legitimate kings, and they generally speak of the Arsacidae as a family imposed upon Armenia by the Parthians. As to the origin. of the Armenian Arsacidae, both the Romans and Armenians agree, that they were descended from the dynasty of the Parthian Arsacidae, an opinion which was so generally established, that Procopius (De Aedificiis Justi?iiam9 iii. 1) says, that nobody had the slightest doubt on the fact." Source: Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, page 362

Meanwhile, Azerbaijan never denied the European Parliament the visit to Naxcivan -- instead, it denied it to those few MPs, whom it called biased and hysterical. Indeed, here's a news piece from Arminfo and Turan, about FM Oskanian saying that UNESCO would visit Naxcivan:

UNESCO DELEGATION TO VISIT NAKHCHIVAN

YEREVAN/09.03.07/TURAN-Arminfo: In the near future a UNESCO delegation will visit Nakhchivan to investigate the alleged elimination of Armenian monuments, Armenian Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanian said at a press conference. The delegation will visit Armenia and Nagorno Karabakh. Concrete terms of the visit have not been determined yet.

--AdilBaguirov 22:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, the ethymology sentence: "According to the Azerbaijani ethymology, Naxcivan derives its name from "Nuhchihan", literally -- "where Noah came out from"." Noah's link to the name of Naxcivan is further strengthened by the nineteenth-century Azerbaijani chronicler, Mirza Jemal Jevanshir Karabaghi. is sourced, verifiable (I have a page scan, if needed) and agreed to previously by none other than user Aivazovsky. Obviously, Azerbaijani ethymology is no less important than the not-removed Armenian one, although both appear to be based on Pahlavi or prior Iranian language. --AdilBaguirov 22:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Not going to happen.-- Ευπάτωρ 22:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Never going to happen. -- Aivazovsky 23:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

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