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This article was nominated for deletion on 26 February 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

References

this POV page does not include the important article from a leading Armenian HETQ magazine - about Armenians' destroying their own khachkars and cultural heritage -- and since the Hetq story compares this to khachkar (cross-stones or head-stones, common to Armenians and Caucasian Albanians of the region) destruction in Naxcivan, it was relevant. What is interesting, there are more admissions of khachkars being destroyed by Armenians themselves, especially around their capital of Yerevan -- for example, at this specialized khachkar website -

"Endangered Khachkars in Armenia and Artsakh It is particularly tragic that khachkars are also endangered in Armenia and Artsakh. They are disappearing, being damaged or moved. Most endangered are the old khachkar fields located near today’s graveyards, where khachkars are being eradicated for the creation of new burial space. The “crown of thorns” belongs to the khachkar field in Arinch near Yerevan. The situation is threatening in Noratus as well, where new burials are encroaching upon the khachkar field from at least three sides. The old graveyard of Areni is in almost the same situation. The movement of khachkars voluntarily by different individuals is a widespread practice. In some cases this is done to allegedly create a new holy place, for example, the case of Karmir Dalakner of Gegharquniq region where the khachkar was brought from Karvachar. Another case of moved khachkars is due to the decoration of new offices and especially entertainment establishments, as for example in the Vank village in Karabakh. The third and the most condemning practice is when khachkars are merely disappearing to decorate individual yards and houses. Khachkars are being damaged also by believers, worshipers and casual visitors, who light candles on them or write their names on them or engage in rituals that are damaging the carvings." See gallery of photos here -

Moreover, the destruction of cultural heritage (or Cultural Genocide, as some Armenians dubbed it) in Armenia, like elsewhere, has reached dangerous proportions and led to many protests both in press and in streets -- , , , and

Hence, if the Armenian and pro-Armenian view on destruction of khachkars by allegedly Azerbaijanis and allegedly in Naxcivan is to be included, then a contrarian view should be included too -- not just Azerbaijan's denial of wrongdoing by the government, but Armenians' own admission of breaking, destroying and otherwise mishandling their own khachkars on their own territory.

Do you have any third party sources? I even added one yet you haven't showed us one, plus this article is focusing on Naxicvan. Artaxiad 09:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Adil its funny that you find Hetq reliable source only when it matches with your views, but if it something else in the article that is against your views you decide not to add it or mention it. ROOB323 09:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop adding nonsense Adil, or Wikify it you dont bold sentences like that, you obviously are pushing POV. Artaxiad 09:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

A blog is not reliable, all those you added will be removed since its obvious POV you have yet to give us reliable or third party sources. Artaxiad 09:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Adil I thought you voted this article for deletion, but now all of a sudden you started pushing your POW in this article. ROOB323 09:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Narek, you can't be renaming articles, for the sole purpose of later claiming that "this article is focusing on Naxicvan". What "third-party" sources? Do you consider the bunch of sources you've lined up in the references as "third-party"? And what blog if it's only one of 6 URLs I've provided?

ROOB323, there is nothing funny -- HETQ writes about a specific problem in Armenia -- if not an Armenian media, then who should write about it? Did you expect New York Times make a feature story on Armenians destroying khachkars and bringing them to Yerevan? And with the addition of so many close-up photos, clearly showing the damage and surroundings, any POV is impossible. Hence, it's a reliable source when it comes to showing this. Just like an article in an opposition newspaper in Azerbaijan (whilst HETQ is not opposition), that has photos, quotes, written by reputable journalist without an axe to grind -- is reputable when discussing internal problems of Azerbaijan.

Yes, I voted to delete the article, but I also commented, twice, from the beginning, that we might retain it by expanding it significantly, including all the counter-accusations and claims. --AdilBaguirov 09:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. ···日本穣 01:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Khachkar destruction → Status of Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhichevan — The present title is too vague and POV. Because of this, some users are attempting to use a liberal interpretation of it to their advantage and to change the nature of this article by marginalizing the main point. The new title specifically addresses the issue at hand. -- Aivazovsky 13:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

1. Support. The present title is too vague and POV. Because of this, some users are attempting to use a liberal interpretation of it to their advantage and to change the nature of this article by marginalizing the main point. The new title specifically addresses the issue at hand. -- Aivazovsky 13:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

Discussion

I think the article should remain at present title and cover destruction of khachkars irrespective of location. Grandmaster 13:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

See the AfD page on this for my response. -- Aivazovsky 13:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Grandmaster 13:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Better if we just delete it since its going to be full POV. Artaxiad 14:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not move the page. The result of vote was to keep at present title. And restore all the info deleted by Aivazovsky without consensus. Do not delete anything without discussion. Grandmaster 05:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, I say that we should vote on a new title. -- Aivazovsky 09:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

We have already voted. Grandmaster 10:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

We voted on whether or not this article should have been deleted, not if it should have been renamed. -- Aivazovsky 10:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

We voted to keep the article with this name. Grandmaster 10:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Look at the votes. I don't think that anybody who voted "keep" voted on the condition that it is never renamed. In fact, on my "keep" vote, I suggested renaming this article. -- Aivazovsky 11:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Removal of source info

Aivazovsky and Artaxiad, discuss any of your proposed changes on the Talk page, before trying to make updates to the article without agreement here. You have removed sourced information on destruction of khachkars in Armenia. Atabek 10:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to engage in pointless revert wars, so I will discuss any further changes I make to the article here before I make them.

My reasoning for deleting the section on the "destruction of khachkars in Armenia" is because this article was never created with the intent of focusing on the neglect of Armenian monuments by the Armenian government. Politics, greed, and bureaucracy is one thing. The deliberate destruction of monuments to erase the very idea that an ethnic or religious group ever existed is completely different. By definition, it's cultural genocide. Like it or not, this is what Azerbaijan has done in Nakhichevan.

In fact, the only reason why the "destruction of khachkars in Armenia" section was added was at the encouragement of none other than User:AdilBaguirov. By suggesting the inclusion of this section, Mr. Baguirov hoped to marginalize the truth about the status of Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhichevan. -- Aivazovsky 11:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

But why do you think that this article should be only about Nakhichevan and not anything else? Nakhichevan issue has been extensively covered in many articles, no need for another one. This article could cover a wider topic, it could be more appropriately named something like "Status of cultural heritage in South Caucasus". Grandmaster 20:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe that might work (if we were to cover the South Caucasus as a whole), but I'm not sure. We can also focus on just Armenian monuments in general. I don't know. Right now I put this article up for a RfM with a support/oppose survey to see where everybody's at.

Like I said in the AfD, I think that the creation of this article was irresponsible in light of the Armenian-Azeri RfA mediation, but by the time I voted, "keep" was already gaining a clear majority. I think that the Azerbaijani users were the cause for why the article ended up staying. Especially with the rhetoric of Adil and Atabek, they made other users question the choice of "delete," thus allowing "keep" to succeed. I'll admit, I even changed my vote from "delete" to "keep" after Atabek attacked it as "yet another redunant piece of false Armenian propaganda". For the record, the destruction of the khachkar of Julfa is not propaganda, but a solid fact. I have even talked with Azeris from Nakhichevan who said that they witnessed the government doing this - in fact their testimony is much like that of the Kurdish-Turkish testimony to Turkish government policies against Armenian monuments from the 1980s and 1990s. -- Aivazovsky 20:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Azerbaijani users are to blame for everything that went wrong here. In fact, I said when nominated that this article was a POV fork, created by User:Artaxiad, who actually created other controversial articles too. And while Azerbaijani users voted to delete this, certain people voted to keep only because we voted the opposite. Voting on talk has no binding force, so we need to reach a consensus anyway. Grandmaster 20:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

So, what do you suggest we do? -- Aivazovsky 21:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Since you guys did not support deletion of this article, we need to work on it. I think we can change it into article about situation with protection of cultural heritage in the Caucasus. Grandmaster 06:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I dunno, maybe it would be best if we just re-nominate this article for deletion. -- Aivazovsky 13:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

We might even be able to specifically appeal to an admin to delete this seeing as Artaxiad who created this article even said "Better if we just delete it since its going to be full POV". -- Aivazovsky 13:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

How many times you can nominate the same article for deletion? I nominated this one, deletion did not get a consensus, so we need to work on it. Grandmaster 07:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Did nominate it again, I will support its deletion. Fad (ix) 19:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

To MarshallBargramyan: Please do not remove any sourced information without providing an explanation on the talk page. The title covers the topic of khackar destruction in general irrespective of location. Users voted to keep the article, and if a piece of information reflects the title of the article I don't see why it should be taken out. Parishan 06:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You are not editing this article in good faith. Maybe I shall edit the article on the Sun and tell that there are growing evidences that the center of the Sun is freezing cold and refer to the Italian physicist Renzo Boscoli paper, considered as a fringe. A growing evidence is your interpretation, for one single work, which you even quote a full section of. Maybe I shall do the same in other articles. Fad (ix) 19:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Fadix, you are in no position to speculate about "good faith" here. Editors who exercise bad faith are those who remove sourced and appropriate, verifiable info such as the Hetq article and other information to balance this article and make it NPOV. --AdilBaguirov 20:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming again that you don't know what NPOV means. NPOV relate to neutral point of view, it is not about balance. I did not oppose the inclusion of Hetq, what I have opposed is to extend this by quoting it to counterbalance the article, read the NPOV policy it specifically contain something about what I am telling. It is one source, yet the destruction of the Khachkars in Nakhichevan has made various news, one article in an Armenian newspaper worth a footnote not a quote to counter balance what various newspapers have reported and as being equaly covered. Anyone doing just that, are not editing this article in good faith and harming it. Parishan has registered in 2004, he should know the policies by now. Fad (ix) 20:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not the first time Marshal deletes the info from the article, including a whole section on khackar destruction in Armenia and the comments of Azerbaijani embassador Pashayev. I see it as an attempt to supress the info. Please discuss proposed changes on talk. Grandmaster 08:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

So is this source even relevant? Artaxiad 12:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not? Grandmaster 12:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The deletion was justified, when will you ever understand policies and guidelines? Is Steven Sims and the various other people who have accused Nakhichevan "Armenia"? How is it that the various newspapers covering the event are given as much space as the Ambassadors words, which is even quoted, or the Armenian publication which is given a quote? You are POV pushing and you may add this accusation in the evidence page as an attack against you so that the arbotrators come here and read those edits and the context of my statment as see how you still have difficulty understanding what NPOV means. Let me repeat, the destruction was reported in various newspapers, observators like Steven Sims have actually confirmed it, The European parlement investigators were refused access. All those stuff are published, notable and covered in plenty of source. Yet the single statment by the ambassador is quoted to counterbalance and push this to a 50/50 coverage. Like this was not enough, the events in Armenia are even given unjustified coverage by actual quoting. So, again, I accuse you of POV pushing and accuse you of harming this article. Marshal is a very neutral Armenian contributor who did not engage in revert wars, and his reverts were justified by clear explainations which should have been enough for you. It is not all to be able to source something, sourcing does not give free pass for a 50/50 coverage. I am really tired trying to teach you what neutrality means. And don't worry, I will bring in the evidence page various attemps by me trying to teach you what is NPOV, neutral point of view and your weird understanding of this policy. So, here too, I will be telling you, do toy with this article. Fad (ix) 17:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop blackmailing me. I do not think that you can cite any wiki policy that allows it. You are free to add to your arbcom evidence whatever you wish. You guys are simpy trying to supress the info you don't like. The article is about khachkar destruction, it is not about the event in a certain location, but covers any such action no matter where it occured. So all the referenced info should remain in the article. And how can you justify deletion of the words of Azerbaijani embassador? Why position of Azerbaijani side should not be reflected? How come deletion of this info by Marshall is neutral? Grandmaster 17:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"Undue weight" read the Neutral point of view policy. No one told that the source should be deleted, sources do not justify undue weight, the very large majority of sources support one position, quoting from the limited materials from the fringe to increase the lenght of that position in this case is simply POV pushing. Fad (ix) 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This article should have never been created. -- Aivazovsky 17:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Fad (ix) 17:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay? its not going to magically disappear. Artaxiad 01:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should clean the article of Armenian and Azeri sources, and start off with regular third party sources. Artaxiad 01:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

As the creator of this article, you can appeal to an admin to delete this. If not, then I say we re-nominate this article for deletion. -- Aivazovsky 02:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No I can't, renominate it for sure. But if theres only third party sources less POV, I added a few already. Artaxiad 05:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

NPOV "contemplates inclusion of all significant perspectives that have been published by a reliable source. While majority perspectives may be favored by more detailed coverage, minority perspectives should also receive sufficient coverage. No perspective is to be presented as the "truth"; all perspectives are to be attributed to their advocates." - this is also to be enforced by Arbcom with relation to Azernaijani-Armenian articles. So, Azeri perspective should be in place - quote from Azerbaijani Ambassador as refrenced from Regnum.--Dacy69 14:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to decieve you there, this policy is my most cherished and respect it to the letter. You have ignored a very important part of it. Read the three points Jimbo highline. Fad (ix) 15:10, 14 March 2007(UTC)

Yes, I know the whole NPOV rules. here we are not talking tiny minority. We are speaking about conflict between the two countries. So, both perspectives should be reflected--Dacy69 15:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is a minority, the European parlement, and newspapers like the Independent can not be equally covered as the Azerbaijan ambassador. Fad (ix) 18:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad once again deleted info on destruction of khachkars in Armenia. As it was explained many times, this article is not about destruction of khachkars in a certain area, but about destruction in general, as the title implies. So please do not delete verifiable info. Grandmaster 16:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, then explain me how more notable is an Armenian newspaper to the Independent article which is not quoted? The destruction by some teenagers of Armenian monuments did not take the attention of any major media or published sources, beside some Armenian newspapers. While many relate to the Hamidian massacre as an Armenian genocide, it is recognized that the Armenian genocide refers to 1915. The destruction of the Khachkars relate to the destruction in Azerbaijan, this is what it is understood. The event attached to the term the destruction of the Khachkars relate to that. While the destruction of Armenian monuments inside Armenia could have a place, the place it has is a line with the relevent footnotes, not an entire quote to balance it. Again, this is called POV pushing. Fad (ix) 18:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all, again here we are not talking about majority or minority view. This is about the conflict between two parties - so we should give perspectives of two parties. Secondly, I support Grandmaster arguments - this article from the title implies that it can cover destruction of Khachkars in general - in Azerbaijan, Armenia or elsewhere. Actually, this issue should be covered at the conflict page. Once I proposed to user:Aivazovsky not to multiply conflict-related pages and we even managed to agree on the deletion of one page which was created by user:Artaxiad. However, later this and other users derailed from that and they believe that by creating twin pages they will win arguments. It is not so. So, you did not want deletion - ok, then we have a full right to put various perspectives and information about destruction of khachkars in Armenia as well - that's NPOV, which you like so, as do I.

So the European Parlement, newspapers like The Independent, independent investigator like Steven Sims and Armenia shall have an equal coverage than Azerbaijans answer? Nice understanding of the NPOV policy you have. Fad (ix) 19:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Look at page Urartu - section ethnic composition - it was me who supported inclusion of majority and minority views. And if you don't understand that no matter who (European Parliament, etc) speak about Khachkar, it deals with the conflict. If we speak about 9/11 overwhelming majority speak about Al-Qaeda attack. In the meantime, Wiki page has 2-3 sentences about so-called cnspiracy theory I advise you to look around for better understanding NPOV --Dacy69 19:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't have much idea of what happened in Urartu article, I just posted in its talkpage few times and it had little to do with the dispute you guys had. I kept myself out from there and I always said why, I have absolutly no interest contributing in articles about stuff which happened BC. As for 9-11, you should read the controversy section, it does not only contain about the allegations that it was controled destruction. And it is not only a fringe, but a minority. Besides, I have never refused inclusion of the minority position, what I requested was it to be presented as such. Fad (ix) 20:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Nakhichevan gets more coverage anyway, but it does not mean that we should suppress the info about destruction in other locations just because Nakhichevan received more international attention. We cover all aspects of the subject, and we don't limit the article to a certain location. Undue weight does not apply here, it is about situations when a view of minority on a certain subject receives more coverage than the prevailing view. It is more about the positions than events. But it does not mean that you ignore certain events just because others get more publicity. Grandmaster 20:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not accurate, coverage is all that matters, events are presented in Misplaced Pages based on published materials. The destruction of the Khachkars was the one single event which was given space in the news and compared with other tragic destructions. What happened in Armenia was covered in the Armenian press, and most of it is not specific to Khachkars, it does worth a coverage, but a line or two, as it is insignificantly covered. Misplaced Pages is not the place to cook a notability for something. The main question here is, what people most refer to as Khachkar destruction? The answer is obvious, any attempt to present this other than how it is represented in published materials is original research and in this situation as POV pushing. Fad (ix) 20:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly -- all khachkar-related news from independent, authoritative third-party Western news outlets also mentioned the concerns of Azerbaijan, that Armenians have vandalized Azerbaijani-specific mosques, graveyards, monuments, etc. More such news are available here: As well as on the fires that Armenians spread on the occupied Azerbaijani territories: including a UN General Assembly resolution And of course the likes of HETQ's Baghdasaryan, and Onnik Krikorian, the two prominent Armenian journalists who have no sympathy for Azerbaijan, have both juxtaposed Armenia's own treatment of khachkars and other cultural and historic heritage in its possession with Armenian accusations against Azerbaijan for those matters (i.e., see: , , , and ) --AdilBaguirov 21:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see Khachkars, I might have missed something. Did I? Fad (ix) 22:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

What a surprise - all of the sources from the first set come from Azerbaijan that constantly demonize Armenians on their web pages - provide several more credible sources since none of them are even 3rd party.

Regardless of the Azeri claims, what may have happened to those Azeri monuments were most probably because of the fighting during the war, not a systematic attempt to erase their existence, which Azerbaijan's government is trying to hide. The videos clearly show Azerbaijan's military put to the work of destroying the khatchkars; to reiterate, this article is about Azerbaijan's campaign to erase the fields of khatckars, not something for you guys to point to Armenia and say "look, look they do it too!".--MarshallBagramyan 22:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion again

I've renominated this article for deletion. It's just become a big mess. -- Aivazovsky 22:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You just lost arguments. First you wanted to make another non-academic anti-Azerbaijani propoganda page, and then you failed you decided to delete it. I once warned you, guys, not to multiply conflict-related pages. It is enough coverage on NKWar page.--Dacy69 13:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for just admitting again your bad faith. Fad (ix) 14:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think what Aivazovsky does is nothing but WP:GAME. Grandmaster 14:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

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