| Revision as of 12:26, 7 April 2019 editSsilvers (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers179,367 edits →Productions section: ce← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 23:05, 8 January 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots8,021,869 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}} and vital articles: 5 WikiProject templates. Merge {{VA}} into {{WPBS}}. Keep majority rating "B" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 5 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Musical Theatre}}, {{WikiProject Shakespeare}}, {{WikiProject Dance}}, {{WikiProject New York City}}, {{WikiProject Romance}}. |
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{{afd-merged-from|West Side Story (1979 film)|West Side Story (1979 film)|7 July 2023}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1= |
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{{WikiProject Musical Theatre|class=B}} |
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{{WikiProject Musical Theatre}} |
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{{WikiProject Shakespeare|class=B|importance=mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Dance|Ballet=yes|class=B|importance=mid|Ballet-importance=low}} |
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{{WP1.0|v0.7=pass|class=B|category=Arts}} |
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{{OnThisDay|date1=2004-09-26|oldid1=16335431|date2=2005-09-26|oldid2=24050350|date3=2006-09-26|oldid3=77899923|date4=2007-09-26|oldid4=160474984|date5=2008-09-26|oldid5=241226993|date6=2011-09-26|oldid6=452542921}} |
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== Well, that's one way to avoid a role you don't want == |
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==Removal of relevant photo== |
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] and ] in the 2002 adaptation]] |
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It's a bit hard to understand the removal if this photo, even with my admitted COI and even with the helpful project the user has embarked upon to clean up what he feels are my COI additions. The photo illustrates the text and is very rare (and free) as it shows the only two performers ever in that show to attract considerable notice internationally. --] (]) 18:05, 13 October 2017 (UTC) |
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"Laurents wanted James Dean for the lead role of Tony, but the actor soon died." |
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:I agree with the removal of the image. It is not even from a production of ''West Side Story''; it is from a single production of a parody adaptation of the show that is mentioned in the article only because it was long-running in other places. The image can go on the actors' own pages. Taking a look at what you did, now, I can't even see a ref that states that they even appeared in the adaptation, so you should add a specific ref to the actors' pages concerning their roles in the production. -- ] (]) 21:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC) |
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::Thank you! The reference to this show has been in other online bios about them since they were ''discovered'' years ago, info which I have not been able to see, in every case, as derivative of WP's info. Since I have met both of these people, albeit years ago, would you kindly consider adding under Mohombi's and under Mattsson's article? When I met them they were both proud to have had worked for ] (who took the photo) in two of his cabarets, but it's recently been determined once and for all that I know ''him'' too well to edit articles like these 2 anymore. I believe you and I have cooperated in cleaning a few things up before, that's why I'm applying a bit of the spirit of ] to this request of mine. --] (]) 22:47, 13 October 2017 (UTC) |
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:::Who says you can't edit these two actors' articles, if your only connection is that you met them and know someone who directed them? I'm happy to help out, but I'm not going to read through these refs to see what parts of them would be useful in the actors' bios. I suppose that if you send me the proposed changes and refs, I can review them and add them for you. -- ] (]) 23:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC) |
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::::Although {{diff|West Side Story|805168283|803668891|the edit}} by ] had a smell of ] about it, I agree that the picture was inappropriate for this article. -- ] (]) 00:47, 14 October 2017 (UTC) |
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Seriously, the wording there is a bit awkward; could be improved. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==Productions section== |
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'']'' is an extremely popular musical, which is produced many times every year in productions around the world. In the article, in accordance with ] article structure guidelines and ], we report only the most noteworthy professional productions. These include those that are long-running, in major venues or national tours, with notable directors and notable cast members. -- ] (]) 05:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:I'll second {{u|Ssilvers}}, and add that as a general rule of thumb for such sections it is a good idea to demonstrate "noteworthyness" (i.e. ]) with citations. That is, citations for such additions should not simply verify their assertions, but also demonstrate that the production in question rises to a certain level of notability. As an example, if the production is included in a survey of productions (anything from a popular press "10 best productions of…" to a scholarly monograph or critical edition of the musical). Personally I recommend tagging all additions lacking such a citation with {{tlx|cn|reason{{=}}Does not demonstrate notability for inclusion.}} and ruthlessly removing them if no such citation is forthcoming (even if there are cites that merely verify the information). --] (]) 07:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC) |
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::I agree that only notable productions should be listed in "International productions". I disagree that the two Australian productions in 2019, which ] {{diff|West Side Story|891221452|891167840|removed}}, do not fall into that category. For a start, having one company, Opera Australia, mount two productions in one year is unusual and notable. Second, Joey McKneely and Francesca Zambello are notable directors of notable productions, and there is significant coverage about it in Oz. -- ] (]) 11:54, 7 April 2019 (UTC) |
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== Some possible articles about the text's treatment of Puerto Rican culture == |
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:::You need show that each production listed was a long-running production with a notable director and a cast in which most of the leads were notable persons. Again, there have been thousands of professional theatre and opera companies and touring companies that have played this musical. It would be unencyclopedic to try to list even a small percentage of those. Compare to how we treat the musicals ''Hair'', or ''Oklahoma!'', '']'' or '']'', which are other very popular musicals, the last two of which are FA articles. You can say that ''West Side Story'' has been produced in x number of countries, if you have a cite for that, but the fact that an opera company mounted two short-lived productions in rapid succession is not of encyclopedic importance here. Even a production by the Metropolitan Opera would be of doubtful encyclopedic interest unless it was televised or became part of their standard repertoire. By the way, the question of whether to include content in an article is not whether it is "notable", but whether it is "noteworthy" in the context of the article. These events may be noteworthy in the context of Opera Australia's article, or and actor's article, but not ''West Side Story's'' article. -- ] (]) 12:18, 7 April 2019 (UTC) |
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* {{cite web|url=https://www.amherst.edu/system/files/media/1055/A%2520Puerto%2520Rican%2520Reading%2520of%2520the%2520America%2520of%2520West%2520Side%2520Story.pdf|title=A Puerto Rican Reading of the America of ''West Side Story''|pages=62-82}} |
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* {{cite web|last=Negron-Muntaner|first=Frances|url=https://muse.jhu.edu/article/31870/pdf|title=restricted access Feeling Pretty: West Side Story and Puerto Rican Identity Discourses|publisher=]|volume=18|issue=2|date=Summer 2000|pages=83-106}} |
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These sources could be useful in developing the article. |
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] (]) 23:41, 10 January 2022 (UTC) |
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==Egyptian 1979 film== |
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==Systemic bias re: musical theater; what happened to ]?== |
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Is this material ] with respect to the article about the musical? Or is it just an adaptation that does not pass ] or ought to be described elsewhere? -- ] (]) 20:49, 26 December 2023 (UTC) |
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I am surprised to be when I tried to specify that the only productions listed in the info box are American & British. Even more surprised to read an edit summary like "these are the only major markets for musical theatre. This is consistent throughout the entire musical theatre project on Misplaced Pages". I am referred to a musical theatre group which I do not know. Please provide me with a link to any discussion where consensus on English Misplaced Pages has decided that the United States and Britain "are the only major markets for musical theatre." Unless I see specific evidence that supports a WP consensus like that, I will make the change again. Frankly, I'm rather shocked. --] (]) 17:57, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:], except for ] and ] is an American genre. It developed from previous European genres including operetta, burlesque, and others. Modern musicals performed beyond English-speaking countries are emulating the American product, and the two major markets for musicals are America and England. The Infoboxes for musicals do not attempt to list all productions of a show (thank heavens). There have been tens or hundreds of thousands of productions of West Side Story, and so we only list the Broadway, West End and US/Brit national tours (together with the original regional or off-Broadway productions) of musicals in Infoboxes, since these are by far the most important productions. Yes, this is specified here: at ]. This is not new and has been done consistently on Misplaced Pages for more than 10 years. This is not systemic bias, it is reality. And just because a genre was developed in a particular country does not mean that the article about it violates ]. However, this is the '''wrong place to discuss all this'''. As I suggested before, if you want to have a useful discussion about it, let's go to the ] talk page, and you can engage with other Wikipedians who care about musical theatre. I can tell you that I have contributed substantially to nearly all the FAs in the musical theatre area and many of the GAs, and I have focused on musical theatre here on WP since 2006. -- ] (]) 19:19, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::This is the right place to discuss whether or not my specification that the productions listed are American and British should have been removed, as if there have not been many major productions of ''West Side Story'' in other countries. That's all we are discussing, as far as I'm concerned, not any "attempt to list all productions of a show". --] (]) 20:18, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:::OK, on that point, the productions listed in the infobox represent *all* the long-running major-market productions of the musical worldwide (), plus the original tryouts and the major film production. Personally, I would delete the film production because it is a production of an adaptation, rather than the musical (it has its own article and is also discussed and cross-referenced later in the article), but many members of the ] project like to include the major film productions in the infoboxes, so I don't resist it. -- ] (]) 20:28, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::::"Worldwide"? --] (]) 20:33, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::Yes, worldwide, since Broadway, the West End, US national tours and Brit national tours are the only "major markets" for musical theatre, each with over $1billion in annual ticket sales. No other markets for musical theatre in the world (China, Japan, SKorea, Germany, France, Italy, Australia, Canada, etc.) come close. That is why the ] project decided that those are the ones that should be included in infoboxes. Frankly, I would rather not include *any* productions in infoboxes, because they are a moving target that require constant updating and, IMO, they clutter up the top of articles. If someone really wants a good discussion of the major productions of a particular show, they really should read the Productions section, which can list the important productions (even if not in a "major market") with much more nuance and clarity. Note that this article has a section on International productions. -- ] (]) 20:40, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::In the links you've provided, I see nothing defining "major markets" as only American and British. --] (]) 21:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::The link that I provided states in the second paragraph: "The productions in the infobox should include the original production, the major productions in New York and/or London and U.S. or UK national tours. Other productions can be indicated by the catchall phrase "International productions" or "Major regional productions"." -- ] (]) 23:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::And I still see nothing wrong with defining the list for clarity, as I attempted to do. --] (]) 21:02, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::It is redundant and not consistent with all the FA musicals in Misplaced Pages, where the IB has been vetted by numerous editors. -- ] (]) 22:43, 21 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::For what it's worth, I'd be up for a broader revisiting and discussion about this 'major market' issue at ]. I've never been fully convinced by the decision criteria applied. ] (]) 21:54, 22 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Be my guest. I will argue there that the revivals should come out of the IB, and that only the first major premiere should be listed in the IB. -- ] (]) 23:06, 22 October 2018 (UTC) |
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In all my 12 years of Misplaced Pages work, logged in or not, frankly, the assertion that the U.S. & Britain are "the only major markets for musical theatre" is one of the most preoposterous I have ever seen. I am no less shocked now that I was the other day when I saw this preposterous assertion for the first time. --] (]) 11:10, 23 October 2018 (UTC) |
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] '''] Response:''' I am responding to a third opinion request about the productions in the infobox. I'm not sure that I see the ]/systemic bias issue here. This is a New York play set in New York with most major productions staged in New York or touring from New York. I'm honestly not sure that any other country needs to be mentioned in the lead or infobox (though I have no issue with the West End productions) or that it needs to be specified that major productions are US & British. The article is quite large, and we should only cover major aspects of the subject in the lead (and infobox). The article has an International productions section. If any such productions there have sufficient weight in the article, that might justify their inclusion in the lead/infobox. But I don't see that being the case. |
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For comparison, I'm going to mention '']'', a Canadian musical. It started in Toronto as a very low-budget affair, practically a sketch show at fringe festivals. They gained investors and restaged on Broadway as a full musical, which did very well. So, as a Toronto play which met success on Broadway, it rightly includes all of that in the lead and infobox, even if the Toronto productions weren't big-budget. As a relatively new play, the other national and international productions carry more weight overall so also have some inclusion. I don't feel that it's a different treatment, just a different weight of notable material which precludes a lot of the international coverage in the lead/infobox for ''West Side Story''. – ] (]) 16:32, 23 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|SergeWoodzing}} Since you appear to be interested in more eyes on the question, I'll chime in to say that while I know very little about musical theatre, I find {{u|Ssilvers}} position unobjectionable and their argument reasonable. I don't know musical theatre as a field so I cannot vouch for its factual basis, but I do care quite a bit about the global perspective (which we have major issues maintaining in general) and I have no complaints in that regard about this practice within the relevant WikiProject (I do however tend to agree with Ssilvers that the list would better be pruned to inaugural productions or some strict definition of what merits mention). So, fwiw, and to the degree it's helpful… --] (]) 17:08, 23 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::Per Xover and Reidgreg's comment above, I don't see the bias here. - ] (]) 06:38, 24 October 2018 (UTC) |
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How much money have big French, German, Austrian, Dutch, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Finnish theatres made on popular & lucrative musicals per decade? How much money have music publishers made on translations? Just to mention European markets. Does anyone care, or it is just ''Britannia rules'' (as with ]) + OK then, her former colony? I really don't want to call anyone ignorant (untravelled? passportless?), but I'm still absolutely flabbergasted. --] (]) 13:10, 24 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:A lot less than Broadway and the West End, each of which are markets with well over $1 billion annually in ticket sales (and well over 10 million tickets sold per year). If you go to Paris or Berlin, they don't have anything like the same number of musicals playing simultaneously like in New York and London. Just a few theaters playing American or British musicals and occasionally an American-style musical written in the local language, such as '']''. In fact, Boublil and Schönberg are literally the only non-Brit European musical theatre-writing team to have produced a musical theatre blockbuster. Nearly all the great musical theatre writers since WWI have been American (except notably Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice). You can see much more opera and operetta in continental Europe than in the US, but they are not major markets for musicals on the scale of New York and London. When the ] project began, these were the discussions we had, and you certainly have not presented any reason to change this conclusion regarding the thousands of WP articles on musicals. -- ] (]) 17:58, 24 October 2018 (UTC) |
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Suggest you make these points over in the Talk page at ], ]. I'm not sure that ''West Side Story'' is a particularly special case that justifies divergence from the standard, so if you think a shift in approach is merited then it needs the authority of consensus there. ] (]) 20:00, 24 October 2018 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Boneymau}}, I'm not sure you meant to ping me for my brief comment? - ] (]) 20:16, 24 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::Oops, sorry wrong S name. I meant to ping ]. ] (]) |
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"Laurents wanted James Dean for the lead role of Tony, but the actor soon died."
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
