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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 13:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

JCP → JCP (disambiguation) –

JCPenney needs to be moved to JCP. The logo suggests that the company is now known as JCP. (Note: people who remember it from before 2012 will always remember it as JCPenney, but this is merely one's memory of the past.) Georgia guy (talk) 14:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. The "JCP" in the logo is a mere abbreviation; see File:JCP Frisco.jpg as evidence that the full name is still being used on stores. And this should have been formatted as a multi-move; as it is, Talk:J.C. Penney needs to be notified of this discussion. Powers 15:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Web site is still jcpenney.com, and you may have noticed a spate of recent news articles on the chain, all of which refer to the company and its stores as "J.C. Penney". Powers 15:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

    Comment. The JCP Frisco image you showed uses the 2011 logo. Can you reveal it's a 2012 image as opposed to a 2011 image?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

    Fair enough, but I'm not the one making a positive claim that the name has changed. Have any stores switched away from using the full name in favor of just "jcp"? Powers 17:58, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

    Have you been to a store since the logo changed?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:01, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

    No. Am I supposed to just take your word for it that all 1,100 stores received and installed new exterior signage in the last month? Powers 18:11, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

    It might take until August according to what one news article reveals, but the new logo is already the official logo.

    Evidence, please. Powers 02:04, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Here's the most recent press release from their website. It still uses "JCPenney". Dohn joe (talk) 18:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose No indication that the company is the primary topic of JCP. --Kusunose 01:10, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

  Comment. That doesn't imply what is meant by the reason for this move. If that argument is used, the article should be at JCP (firm). Georgia guy (talk) 01:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

  If you don't think the store is the primary topic for "JCP", why do you want to move the disambiguation page? Powers 02:04, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

  I'm sure the store is pretty primary given that the logo now just says JCP. Georgia guy (talk) 13:45, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

  But when Kusunose said there was no indication of primacy, your reply seemed to say that you felt that the primary topic issue was immaterial and that you'd be equally happy with JCP (firm). Powers 14:52, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm confused. What exactly is the scope of this request? Looking at the dab page, I might actually agree that the department store could be the primary topic for "JCP", and should redirect to JCPenney. As I stated above, though, the store article should stay at the longer name because it's still the common name for the store. Dohn joe (talk) 16:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

  Which is, in turn, because people who remember it from before a very recent change in its logo still know it by that name. Sometimes new names are hard for people to get used to. Georgia guy (talk) 16:54, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

  You have yet to provide any concrete evidence of a name change aside from the new logo. The web site is still jcpenney.com, the corporate name is still J.C. Penney, and news articles still refer to both stores and company as "J.C. Penney". Powers 15:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

  The second statement in your last sentence is wrong. It says "JCP Media" at the bottom of the page. Georgia guy (talk) 15:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

  That's the name on the website, but Powers is correct: the corporate name is still "J. C. PENNEY COMPANY, INC.", according to Delaware and the SEC. Dohn joe (talk) 17:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose There's no evidence that the store is the primary topic for "JCP". older ≠ wiser 19:25, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose No evidence that this is the primary topic. Here in the United Kingdom, the letters JCP are usually a reference to the Japanese Communist Party! Skinsmoke (talk) 20:51, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose No evidence of primacy per WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. ENeville (talk) 22:48, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per User:ENeville, User:Bkonrad, and others. Callmederek (talk) 21:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

  Comment. Misplaced Pages:Arguments to avoid means that in deletion discussions, Keep/Delete per other users is not a good argument. If it's not a good argument for deletion, then "Oppose per others" is not a good vote on requested moves either. Georgia guy (talk) 21:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

  There's nothing wrong with endorsing other editors' opinions, especially when those opinions need no further elaboration. By the way, it kinda looks bad that you've replied to other people without responding to my points above. Powers 16:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

  I sometimes don't know what to say in response to points people make. The most realistic question is: Are there plenty of businesses whose names are partially absent from their logos?? For example, Misplaced Pages would qualify for this if its official logo just said WP. Georgia guy (talk) 17:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

A few points. Misplaced Pages:Arguments to avoid actually redirects to Misplaced Pages:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, which has a hatnote for Misplaced Pages:Arguments to avoid in adminship discussions, so extrapolation from that particular arena to this move discussion should not be presumed. Also, it's worth noting that even there, editors are cautioned, "it is important to realize that countering the keep or delete arguments of other people, or dismissing them outright, by simply referring them to this essay is not encouraged." As to the general path of the dispute here, I would suggest that advocacy for the primacy of J.C. Penney among the various meanings of JCP is moot while that article doesn't even occupy the JCP namespace, as indicated by the initial response to this proposal, and arguments towards that end are fundamentally impaired here as a result. In anticipation of that discussion, I would suggest noting WP:OFFICIALNAME, which describes why "official" names are not the presumed title for articles. ENeville (talk) 18:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Silicon Graphics, Aaron Marcus and Associates, Inc., Institute of Leadership & Management... Powers 19:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. A logo is not a name. 67.194.69.67 (talk) 00:20, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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