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Talk:Zheleznovodsk Communiqué: Difference between revisions

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==Start of conflict== ==Start of conflict==
The actual petitions by Armenians started in August of 1987, the actual conflict started in November 1987 when the first Azeris were expelled from their homes in Gugark . That's what is meant in Yeltsin's communique (the actual text of the declaration says 4 years). ] (]) 14:10, 15 April 2010 (UTC) The actual petitions by Armenians started in August of 1987, the actual conflict started in November 1987 when the first Azeris were expelled from their homes in Gugark . That's what is meant in Yeltsin's communique (the actual text of the declaration says 4 years). ] (]) 14:10, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


:Petitions were sent as early as the 1930s, and others were sent in 1945 and 1965 as well if you really want to take it that far. Asides from the BBC Russian article that journalist ] himself wrote, do you have any other evidence (official sources) to adduce that such an expulsion even took place (who was responsible for it, why they take such measures, archival data). Please avoid making blind reverts also.--] (]) 15:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC) :Petitions were sent as early as the 1930s, and others were sent in 1945 and 1965 as well if you really want to take it that far. Asides from the BBC Russian article that journalist ] himself wrote, do you have any other evidence (official sources) to adduce that such an expulsion even took place (who was responsible for it, why they take such measures, archival data). Please avoid making blind reverts also.--] (]) 15:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


::We're not talking about petitions of 1960's. We're talking about the petitions and calls by Agambekian in Paris which resulted in the exodus from Armenia. I think the leaders of two states, Yeltsin and Nazarbayev along with Azerbaijani and Armenian delegations would know better when the conflict started when they wrote and signed the declaration, than what you allege here. It's in the text of the communique. Feel free to read it first. Thank you. ] (]) 15:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC) ::We're not talking about petitions of 1960's. We're talking about the petitions and calls by Agambekian in Paris which resulted in the exodus from Armenia. I think the leaders of two states, Yeltsin and Nazarbayev along with Azerbaijani and Armenian delegations would know better when the conflict started when they wrote and signed the declaration, than what you allege here. It's in the text of the communique. Feel free to read it first. Thank you. ] (]) 15:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


:::What it says in the communique is secondary. For the last time, can you show to us any third party (non-Azerbaijani) sources, archival material, newspapers, to corroborate what Thomas de Waal (and the article he wrote in the BBC) says? If not, then we're treating that as a fringe opinion and we don't give undue weight to such positions. You cannot conceal the exodus of thousands of people if something like this truly happened. Virtually all sources give February 1988 as the starting point of the conflict. --] (]) 15:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC) :::What it says in the communique is secondary. For the last time, can you show to us any third party (non-Azerbaijani) sources, archival material, newspapers, to corroborate what Thomas de Waal (and the article he wrote in the BBC) says? If not, then we're treating that as a fringe opinion and we don't give undue weight to such positions. You cannot conceal the exodus of thousands of people if something like this truly happened. Virtually all sources give February 1988 as the starting point of the conflict. --] (]) 15:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
::::It can't be secondary if the declaration is about solving the very conflict they were discussing. There 3rd party sources (such as articles in Vestnik printed in 2005) but there are no direct links to them. By the way, it wasn't thousands of people expelled at that time. There were just a few hundred forced out by end of 1987. Exodus of thousands you are talking about started in 1988. ] (]) 16:26, 15 April 2010 (UTC) ::::It can't be secondary if the declaration is about solving the very conflict they were discussing. There 3rd party sources (such as articles in Vestnik printed in 2005) but there are no direct links to them. By the way, it wasn't thousands of people expelled at that time. There were just a few hundred forced out by end of 1987. Exodus of thousands you are talking about started in 1988. ] (]) 16:26, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying it is secondary to the issue at hand. Again, do you have any other third-party sources to sustain the fringe position? I am not talking about some obscure articles but concrete sources from archival data or the sort. What's now present in this article (in its ridiculously POV, laconic and uninformative state) is at complete variance of what is found in dozens of articles on Misplaced Pages and in all sources on the conflict in general which unambiguously state that the conflict began in February 1988. This is the last time I will be asking you this.--] (]) 15:34, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
:First off, watch your tone and assume good faith. This may sound "ridiculous, laconic and uninformative" to you but is now widely accepted theory and is sourced to BBC in this instance. Expelling out Azeris from their homes in Gugark can't be just overlooked and is a part of the conflict. If you'd like, we can re-word the text mentioning the information comes from a particular source. ] (]) 15:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I am exasperated by this poor excuse for a "discussion". After kindly asking you numerous times for further corroboration by other sources, you have only offered a token concession of qualifying something that is otherwise known on Misplaced Pages as ]. This is not even a minority position for it to warrant a mention but is something that is mentioned by a fringe source(s) (it's not the BBC's position, it's by the work of a single journalist). If you have nothing else to offer, I will change the background section to reflect mainstream scholarly opinion, adding 20 sources if need be.--] (]) 16:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
:As much "exasperated" as you choose to be, this particular journalist and his works are widely referred to in Misplaced Pages as well as anywhere on the web, specifically in the context of Karabakh conflict. Just because his analysis of the conflict is neutral and not pro-Armenian, it's not a reason enough to discredit him. The source is not fringe. There are a number of sources indicating killings of Azeris in Gugark in November 1987. Unfortunately, many of them are from Russian newspapers and agencies which do not have direct internet links to the articles. I'm changing it to Feb 1988. Once the sources become available, they will be incorporated. ] (]) 17:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

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Start of conflict

The actual petitions by Armenians started in August of 1987, the actual conflict started in November 1987 when the first Azeris were expelled from their homes in Gugark . That's what is meant in Yeltsin's communique (the actual text of the declaration says 4 years). Tuscumbia (talk) 14:10, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Petitions were sent as early as the 1930s, and others were sent in 1945 and 1965 as well if you really want to take it that far. Asides from the BBC Russian article that journalist Thomas de Waal himself wrote, do you have any other evidence (official sources) to adduce that such an expulsion even took place (who was responsible for it, why they take such measures, archival data). Please avoid making blind reverts also.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 15:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
We're not talking about petitions of 1960's. We're talking about the petitions and calls by Agambekian in Paris which resulted in the exodus from Armenia. I think the leaders of two states, Yeltsin and Nazarbayev along with Azerbaijani and Armenian delegations would know better when the conflict started when they wrote and signed the declaration, than what you allege here. It's in the text of the communique. Feel free to read it first. Thank you. Tuscumbia (talk) 15:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
What it says in the communique is secondary. For the last time, can you show to us any third party (non-Azerbaijani) sources, archival material, newspapers, to corroborate what Thomas de Waal (and the article he wrote in the BBC) says? If not, then we're treating that as a fringe opinion and we don't give undue weight to such positions. You cannot conceal the exodus of thousands of people if something like this truly happened. Virtually all sources give February 1988 as the starting point of the conflict. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 15:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
It can't be secondary if the declaration is about solving the very conflict they were discussing. There 3rd party sources (such as articles in Vestnik printed in 2005) but there are no direct links to them. By the way, it wasn't thousands of people expelled at that time. There were just a few hundred forced out by end of 1987. Exodus of thousands you are talking about started in 1988. Tuscumbia (talk) 16:26, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying it is secondary to the issue at hand. Again, do you have any other third-party sources to sustain the fringe position? I am not talking about some obscure articles but concrete sources from archival data or the sort. What's now present in this article (in its ridiculously POV, laconic and uninformative state) is at complete variance of what is found in dozens of articles on Misplaced Pages and in all sources on the conflict in general which unambiguously state that the conflict began in February 1988. This is the last time I will be asking you this.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 15:34, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

First off, watch your tone and assume good faith. This may sound "ridiculous, laconic and uninformative" to you but is now widely accepted theory and is sourced to BBC in this instance. Expelling out Azeris from their homes in Gugark can't be just overlooked and is a part of the conflict. If you'd like, we can re-word the text mentioning the information comes from a particular source. Tuscumbia (talk) 15:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I am exasperated by this poor excuse for a "discussion". After kindly asking you numerous times for further corroboration by other sources, you have only offered a token concession of qualifying something that is otherwise known on Misplaced Pages as FRINGE. This is not even a minority position for it to warrant a mention but is something that is mentioned by a fringe source(s) (it's not the BBC's position, it's by the work of a single journalist). If you have nothing else to offer, I will change the background section to reflect mainstream scholarly opinion, adding 20 sources if need be.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

As much "exasperated" as you choose to be, this particular journalist and his works are widely referred to in Misplaced Pages as well as anywhere on the web, specifically in the context of Karabakh conflict. Just because his analysis of the conflict is neutral and not pro-Armenian, it's not a reason enough to discredit him. The source is not fringe. There are a number of sources indicating killings of Azeris in Gugark in November 1987. Unfortunately, many of them are from Russian newspapers and agencies which do not have direct internet links to the articles. I'm changing it to Feb 1988. Once the sources become available, they will be incorporated. Tuscumbia (talk) 17:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
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