| Revision as of 21:00, 12 November 2019 editYoungForever (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers136,249 edits →Audience/User Ratings← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 02:54, 27 September 2024 edit undoNinjaRobotPirate (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Administrators148,115 editsm NinjaRobotPirate moved page Talk:Watchmen (miniseries) to Talk:Watchmen (TV series) over redirect: Revert undiscussed move (WP:RMUM) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2020 == |
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== The Television Critics Association panel 2019 Damon Lindelof. Add info to Article ? == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Watchmen (TV series)|answered=yes}} |
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Damon Lindelof revealed lots of huge details on Watchmen's Television Critics Association panel. |
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] (]) 12:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC) |
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<ref>https://io9.gizmodo.com/hbos-watchmen-will-address-race-and-the-police-in-conte-1836700926</ref> |
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I want to help provide relevant and important information for this page. |
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<ref>https://www.instagram.com/p/B0Us2rEJi1P/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet</ref> |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> <span style="background: -webkit-radial-gradient(red, blue); -webkit-background-clip: text; -webkit-text-fill-color: transparent;">]<sup>(] • ])</sup></span> 13:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC) |
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== Continuity == |
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1) Much of Lindelof's inspiration for Watchmen came from reading the works of Ta-Nehisi Coates and learning about Black Wall Street and the Tulsa race riots of 1921. In fact, Watchmen takes place in Tulsa, Oklahoma in the Watchmen alternate universe's version of 2019. |
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This should have at least some basic info on continuity, beyond the bare statement that it takes place in the same fictional universe as the original comics. E.g., how does it relate to/depart from the film continuity? To other film/TV works by the same comics publisher? And so on. Keep in mind that many people only know of ''Watchmen'' from the film, and are not comics readers. (For my part, I'm not a superhero comics reader, and don't even watch most filmic adaptations of them, so I won't be of any help on this particular matter.) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 13:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC) |
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2) Nixon ended up being president until his death in 1988, who was then succeeded by Gerald Ford. In 92, Ford lost the election to Robert Redford, who's still president in 2019. 2019 of Watchmen is a world where cops wear masks, Ozymandias is in seclusion, a very liberal Robert Redford is the longest serving POTUS ever, there are no Internet or smartphones and a killer cult has grown up around the dead Rorschach. |
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3) There’s also a white supremacist group that calls themselves “The Seventh Calvary” running around in Rorschach masks. Lindelof said that gets at the one of the main themes of his series: Appropriation. “We understand that we’re appropriating the original ‘Watchmen.’ Characters in this show are appropriating iconic ideas like the Rorschach mask,” he continued. “The idea that the Seventh Cavalry, who seem to be presenting a white supremacist ideology in the pilot, have appropriated Rorschach based on his writings, as a white supremacist. Rorschach is dead, he’s not around to basically say, ‘You got it all wrong.'”. |
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:The problem is, the tie to the *events* of the comic is very much non-existent, outside of the fate of characters. The only major tie-in is the intro sequence of one episode, and the first para of the premise attempts to set the stage enough so that a full refresher of the comic series is not needed here. |
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4) “We reexplore the past but it’s canon,” he says. “Everything that happened in those 12 issues could not be messed with. We were married to it. There is no rebooting it. |
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:There are probably dozens of small continuity nods of the type that TV Tropes would document (both major and minor details) but I don't think to a point requiring a whole section. Reading the premise and the cast/character descriptions in whole, you know who are the returning characters and their original roles. --] (]) 13:38, 27 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::Hmph. I remain skeptical. Against my better judgement, I re-watched the film (which I had seen when it was new, but remembered very little of), read a synopsis of the comics, and also binge-watched the first season of the TV series. The comics and TV series appear to be entirely compatible, while the film and the TV series only have minor disjoints: the filmmakers' decision to complicate the engineered cataclysm that brings about peace between the superpowers, and Dr. Manhattan's statement that he's thinking of leaving for another galaxy. Of these, the only real continuity break is that in the comics and TV show, it's Veidt's giant squid-thing that kills millions in NYC, versus the film changing this to a series of new-energy devices jointly developed by Manhattan and Veidt killing millions in multiple world cities. Even the "where is Manhattan going?" issue isn't an actual continuity break. In the film, it was claimed that peace would hold only as long as the world thought Dr. Manhattan "was watching", and in all three versions of the story he can being in more than one place at a time, so he easily could have followed through with a plan to check out another galaxy while also leaving a visible copy behind doing weird stuff on Mars and more secretively doing stuff on Europa and (in human form) on Earth. Even the weird Klan/Cyclops–Rorschach connection isn't a continuity problem; in both film and comics it's clear that Rorschach's journal is going to get published, so it's entirely plausible that weirdo far-right conspiracy theorists would latch on to it and his image for their own purposes, especially since both comics and film make it clear that the original team were very much "of their time", products of privilege, and quite right-of-center (e.g. the Comedian being said to have been a borderline fascist, and even Manhattan having no problem, until {{lang|la|post hoc}} conscience got to him, of being used as a weapon of mass destruction against communists in North Vietnam).<p>Anyway, it's probably worth at least a few sentences that the major continuity break between the film and TV/comics story lines is simply the squid vs. exploding reactors point, with a secondary and weak discontinuity being Manhattan's very Earth-visible activities on Mars in the TV show. Well, that and Dreiberg being (so far) just being ignored; the viewer of the TV series gets no impression of his having had any impact of any kind after the events of the comics/film. (That could, of course, change in later seasons.) Regardless, I think people tend to use our articles on fiction franchises to get continuity info pretty often (I know I do), so I found it weird that this article was totally devoid of any.<br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 05:39, 1 November 2020 (UTC)</p> |
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== Principal Photography == |
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5) White supremacy is at the forefront of the story. “What in 2019 is the equivalent of the nuclear standoff between the Americans and the Russians?” Lindelof posited. “It is race and the police. ... There are no easy answers and grandiose solutions. In a traditional superhero movie, superheroes fight the aliens. There’s no defeating white supremacy. It’s not going away.” |
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The section begins with the dates May 30 2018 to June 2 2018 for filming the pilot. That seems short. ] (]) 13:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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6) “We’ve created a world that does not have an internet,” Lindelof said. “People do not have smart phones. Even though it’s set in 2019, the Redford administration saw the writing on the wall and stepped in to make sure we could not troll each other.” |
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:Good catch - I found a corrected date with citation -- added to Filming section. ] (]) 15:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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7) The series will feature Regina King’s first on-screen sex scene. |
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== Remove broken reception graph == |
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8) “Whether or not the show feels like its ‘Watchmen’ is in the eye of the beholder,” he said Wednesday during the show’s panel at the Television Critics Association press tour. “Some people who have an intense relationship with the source material might say, ‘This feels like ‘Watchmen’ to me,’ others might say, ‘this is an aberration and I wish it never existed.'” |
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The Reception section graph has been broken for years with no indication that it will be fixed. Even before it was technically broken the graph itself is fundamentally flawed (it shows no difference between an episode with 10 reviews, versus an episode with 100 reviews) and does not meet up to the standard of an encyclopedia. It is long overdue to remove this broken graph. Please remove it already. -- ] (]) 18:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC) |
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9) Lindelof also described going through “an intense period of terror of f-king it up” when he was crafting the idea for the show. “I had an intense amount of respect for this but at the same time I feel like that respect could impair me from doing my job… I had to separate myself a little bit from this incredible reverence, because if I was too reverent, I wouldn’t be able to do anything that was risky.” |
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:That applies to all uses of the template so should be discussed at ]. ] (]) 20:57, 4 September 2024 (UTC) |
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10) “Alan Moore is a genius. In my opinion, the greatest writer in the comic medium and maybe one of the greatest writers of all time. He’s made it very clear that he doesn’t want to have any affiliation or association with ‘Watchmen’ ongoing and that we not use his name to get people to watch it, which I want to respect,” Lindelof said. “I have made personal overtures to connect with him and explain to him a little bit of what we were doing and he made it clear that he didn’t want that to happen and I want to respect that as well.” |
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11) Damon Lindelof- “I do feel like the spirit of Alan Moore is a punk rock spirit, a rebellious spirit, and that if you would tell Alan Moore, a teenage Moore in ’85 or ’86, ‘You’re not allowed to do this because Superman’s creator or Swamp Thing’s creator doesn’t want you to do it,’ he would say, ‘F— you, I’m doing it anyway.’ So I’m channeling the spirit of Alan Moore to tell Alan Moore, ‘F— you, I’m doing it anyway.'” |
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12) Lindelof is asking that critics/viewers give Watchmen the entire season before assessing its approach to race, police and how different it is from the source material. |
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Add info to Article ? |
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== Setting == |
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The Watchmen TV Series takes place in ] in the Watchmen alternate universe's of 2019; one with no ] or ]<ref>https://www.instagram.com/p/B0Us2rEJi1P/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet</ref> and ] is the longest serving ] starting in ]<ref>https://www.instagram.com/p/B0X8LDZJn86/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet</ref>, 34 years after the ] ends. After ] that calls themselves “The Seventh Calvary” wearing home made Rorschach masks do simultaneous attacks on the houses of polices, all the members of the Police department start wearing masks. |
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] (]) 01:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC) |
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--] (]) 01:10, 30 July 2019 (UTC) |
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Add to Article ?--] (]) 01:13, 30 July 2019 (UTC) |
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In this comment and the main article, there is reference to "The Seventh Calvary". Calvary (or Golgotha) is stated as the place where Jesus was crucified. Should this not be amended to "The Seventh Cavalry" - the correct spelling for mounted troops - (pending resolution of the Cavalry/Kavalry question)? ] (]) 14:16, 21 October 2019 (UTC) |
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:Nearly all the sources talking of the episode today use "Cavalry", with some using the K variation. Until there's more clarity on the C vs K, I've switched it to "Cavalry". --] (]) 14:31, 21 October 2019 (UTC) |
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{{Reflist-talk}} |
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== 3-Column Format? == |
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What's up with this? It's terribly difficult to read like that. Is there a purpose for this? I didn't want to change it just in case there was some reason that I don't know about. |
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] (]) 00:00, 17 September 2019 (UTC) |
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Nevermind. I couldn't stand it. I fixed the formatting. |
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] (]) 00:04, 17 September 2019 (UTC) |
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== Separate episode articles == |
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I am going to wait to judge coverage of episodes individually until after the next one (3rd) but I think there's a good likelihood each is individually notable, between episode reviews and production stuff (eg there's the THR article today on part of Lord's play + more.) --] (]) 03:10, 28 October 2019 (UTC) |
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:I am tentatively agreeing with ]. It seems each episode might turn out to be individually notable. Here's one review of the second episode , and one for its premiere episode . I think this series may have significance because it is centered on a central issue of our time, at least in the U.S. And this is accomplished by moving the story line ahead to 2019, along with flashbacks. ] (]) 06:04, 2 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:Here is some background material . It was released by the series creators or HBO or something like that. I lost the article I was reading that linked to it. The background material is on HBO's URL, so there is a connection of some kind. I will try to find that article again. As an aside, there seems to be a lot of RS available on the show itself. ] (]) 06:17, 2 November 2019 (UTC) |
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== About starring cast order == |
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According to ] which states {{tq|The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list.}} ] should be at the bottom of the starring cast list because she didn't appeared and wasn’t credited until "She Was Killed by Space Junk" (episode 3). — ]] 14:18, 5 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:That would be the correct interpretation of the MOSTV guideline for cast order. ] ] 14:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC) |
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'''Update''': ] is now at the bottom of the starring cast list as she has appeared and is credited as part of the main cast on "If You Don't Like My Story, Write Your Own" (episode 4) and while ] is now second to last. — ]] 09:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC) |
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== Audience/User Ratings == |
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This page says user/audience ratings can not be included yet the shows Dark and Chernobyl include user ratings on their pages as well as The Shawshank Redemption. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:41, 7 November 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Can's speak to Dark or Chernobyl, but for Shawshank, it has been noted by reliable sources that the movie has dominated the user-voted #1 at IMDb for a long time. Thus, it is valid to provide that information given others have commented about it. In the case of Watchmen, the best we have on user reviewes are reliable sources talking about review bombing, so that can be included, but that's as far as that needs to be said. --] (]) 20:59, 7 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:Please read up ] and ]. — ]] 21:35, 7 November 2019 (UTC) |
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It seems obvious that the Rotten Tomatoes "Audience Score" for this show (now at 42 percent, as of November 12, 2019) cannot be included on the page for political reasons. I would not have guessed that Misplaced Pages would fall prey to ], "protecting" readers from the unpopular Audience Score of 42 percent. - ] (]) 19:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{re|Slowmusketeer}} It's not about ]. There are guidelines and policies on Misplaced Pages. Audience/User Ratings are not reliable because they are user-generated content. They are not professional reviewers. — ]] 19:41, 12 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:Audience/Critic ratings mean very little and do not affect the Nielsen ratings or a shows renewal/cancelation odds. But per ] user ratings cannot be added to the page. I really wish people would take the hint rather than getting into pointless discussions like on the Batwoman page. No one is censoring anything and no one really cares about what someones politics are on here. Guidelines are guidelines and must be followed. ] (]) 19:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{re|YoungForever}} I disagree. Everyone knows what the Audience Score is, and everyone knows that the "professional reviewers" are just people from the audience who apply to Rotten Tomatoes for that designation (of professional reviewer); the vast majority of those reviewers do not work as critics for newspapers. You or I could just as easily get that designation. Only including the Critic Consensus is misleading Misplaced Pages readers. - ] (]) 20:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:::We don't make the rules, we simply follow. If you want to see audience ratings included on the page I suggest you go about attempting to change the guidelines. That would result in a lengthy discussion I'm sure. ] (]) 20:25, 12 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{re|Esuka}} I have not read the Batwoman page. Audience and Critic ratings are estimates of popular opinion, and many people look at these to decide whether or not to watch a show or take these "scores" into account to estimate a show's quality. You are being dismissive and it is not convincing to me. - ] (]) 20:11, 12 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:::No they really aren't. For example Mr. Robot is one of the most acclaimed shows on television but has been low rated for pretty much its entire run. There are 1000s of examples of very low rated but universally acclaimed shows on television. Take HBO, they have an entire library of beloved but low rated shows. Acclaim means nothing for ratings. ] (]) 20:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::::The problem with any site that allows user-submitted reviews or even just scores is that they can be gamed either way in part due to anonymity whereas the whole of professional reviewers are not going to game their own reviews in the same manner. Most RSes ignore user-generated scores and reviews because they give hardly anything of use for proper reception of a work. --] (]) 20:55, 12 November 2019 (UTC) |
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This should have at least some basic info on continuity, beyond the bare statement that it takes place in the same fictional universe as the original comics. E.g., how does it relate to/depart from the film continuity? To other film/TV works by the same comics publisher? And so on. Keep in mind that many people only know of Watchmen from the film, and are not comics readers. (For my part, I'm not a superhero comics reader, and don't even watch most filmic adaptations of them, so I won't be of any help on this particular matter.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
The Reception section graph has been broken for years with no indication that it will be fixed. Even before it was technically broken the graph itself is fundamentally flawed (it shows no difference between an episode with 10 reviews, versus an episode with 100 reviews) and does not meet up to the standard of an encyclopedia. It is long overdue to remove this broken graph. Please remove it already. -- 109.79.171.34 (talk) 18:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Dylsss 13:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC)