| Revision as of 17:52, 23 July 2004 editWblakesx (talk | contribs)275 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 19:59, 7 November 2024 edit undoGolikom (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,367 editsm Reverted 1 edit by 165.166.164.86 (talk) to last revision by SynoremTags: Twinkle Undo |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=GA|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Socrates|1= |
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{{WikiProject Philosophy|importance=High|philosopher=yes|social=yes|ancient=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|s&a-priority=Top|core=yes|s&a-work-group=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Greece|importance=High|politics-task-force=yes|topic=politics}} |
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{{WikiProject Politics|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Top}} |
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{{Article History |
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|action1date=04:13:22 17 March 2008 (UTC) |
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|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Socrates/archive1 |
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Do we know for CERTAIN that Socrates existed? My understanding was that that issue was still up in the air. --] 01:05 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC) |
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|action2date = 19:44, 4 August 2021 (UTC) |
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Not at all. Perahps it would be if he was only known from Plato's dialogues, but he's discussed by the historian ] and mocked by the comic ], possibly among others. |
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|action3date = 17:34, 22 December 2021 (UTC) |
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:Unless there was another Socrates, he's also mentioned by ]. ] 00:56, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC) |
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Now this is ridiculous. One might as well question whether ] existed. And then, how can we be certain ''you'' exist? --] 02:45, 22 May 2004 (UTC) |
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== Delphi == |
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---- |
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The article states he never left Athens although the general historical consensus is he visited Delphi at least once ] (]) 17:59, 19 May 2023 (UTC) |
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Not a critical point, but regarding Socrates' marriage, I guess there are some conflicting views. Namely, Xanthippe may or may not be the only wife. |
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:Maybe not the historical consensus but that’s what I was taught in school and what I’ve read regarding Socrates ] (]) 16:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC) |
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The following page discusses the issue rather in detail. |
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http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/socrates/wpages39toendpt1.html |
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::As well as military campaigns..as far as I know the statement is inaccurate ] (]) 22:19, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
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See also: |
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:You're absolutely right! In The Apology, Plato writes that Socrates visited the Oracle at Delphi - which is certainly NOT Athens. I concur that the article, at a minimum, should states this, or remove the line altogether that says he never left Athens. ] (]) 06:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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http://www.cnu.edu/academics/phil/carr/SocraBio.htm |
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:Good catch. After double checking the source that was quoted, I've removed the line that states Socrates "never traveled outside of Athens, except for his military campaigns" for the following reasons: |
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http://www.san.beck.org/Plato-Intro.html |
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:1) According to Plato. Socrates did at least travel to Delphi (which is outside of Athens). |
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:2) The source that was cited doesn't even say that as a fact anyway. The citation was Page 10 of the book "Socrates: A guide for the perplexed", and for good measure I read pages 8-12. The source is an opinion piece, which paraphrases Section 230D of Plato's Phaedrus, saying that a young man named Phaedrus *accused* Socrates of never having left the city walls. Obviously, a mere accusation of someone should not be presented as a factual statement, as that line did. |
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:3) Even the source used in the book of 230D in Plato's Phaedrus is wrong! Or, at the very least it's taken WAY out of context. If you go read starting with 230C, Phaedrus says about Socrates "You are an amazing and most remarkable person. For you really do seem exactly like a stranger who is being guided about, and not like a native. You don't go away from the city out over the border, and it seems to me you don't go outside the walls at all." |
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:It was a compliment, not an accusation, and the next line further shows it was a friendly and affectionate conversation when Socrates responds in 230E: "Forgive me, my dear friend. You see, I am fond of learning. Now the country places and the trees won't teach me anything, and the people in the city do. But you seem to have found the charm to bring me out. For as people lead hungry animals by shaking in front of them a branch of leaves or some fruit, just so, I think, you, by holding before me discourses in books, will lead me all over Attica and wherever else you please." (https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Asection%3D230d) ] (]) 07:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Political climate == |
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] 17:37 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Cinadon36}} please explain how the political climate is relevant here. I don't think the paragraph that I removed does this. Thanks, ] 13:05, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
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=== Demos and democracy === |
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:hi @]. Apologies for the delay. I 'll try to reply as soon as I have some spare time. ]] 08:41, 9 November 2023 (UTC) |
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What is the basis for the claim that Socrates supported the democracy? |
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::Hi @], Apologies for the late reply. The political climate is pivotal for grasping the trial of Socrates. A prevalent theory suggests that the trial was politically motivated, as elaborated within the section. It's crucial to provide readers with contextual information regarding the political climate of the time to fully comprehend the political argument presented in the article.]] 07:34, 11 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:Nonexistent, IMO. -- ] 12:42, Oct 28, 2003 (UTC) |
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He fought for his country (rather, his polis) when it was under military attack, but his scorn for democracy would seem to have come out again and again. Is his admiration for the life of Sparta and Crete universally consdiered to be a fabrication? Again, "enemy" would seem rather a strong term for Critias' attitude toward him: that fellow's enemies tended to suffer something rather worse than being allowed to go home and keep their mouths shut. |
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:That phrasing is from my keyboard, and I agonized over it. I don't think "estranged" covers it, nor "disfavour". Finally I plumped for "enemy", half in frustration, half in the hope that someone would come and moderate the statement with a more apposite phrasing, because I could not. The fact remains that he (]) did not remain part of ]' circle, and there was some degree of animus between them due to the (lack of) Socrates' role in the ] fracas. -- CAoap |
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While we're up, is "satirical distortions" (of Aristophanes) a reasonable term? All satire tends to distort, after all; the reader, knowing this, is invited to think that these were more distorted than those of, say, Voltaire or Swift—a highly debatable view. ] 01:45, Oct 28, 2003 (UTC) |
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:Hope my recent edits addressed this problem. If not, feel free to adjust the phrasing. What this article lacks BTW is coverage of the whole 30 tyrants thing, and also Socrates as the prytanie (sp?) during the judicial murder of the generals of the ]. I've been meaning to get to it for a long time. I've got most of my sources pretty well organized, but this article is just so central, that I a a bit intimidated of making an extensive addition. I know I shouldn't, but the fact remains. -- CAoap |
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: And perhaps someone can speak to the association b/t Plato's family and one of the Tyrants? ]] |
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=== Apostrophes' Troublemaking === |
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Looks as if we're in for an apostrophe dispute. I reverted a change that added back an ''s'' to ''Socrates' ''after another person had removed them all. It is traditional in many places to use the form '' Socrates' '', so much so that the Chicago Manual of Style used to list Jesus, Moses, and Socrates as exceptions to the usual rule of adding '' 's '' to words and names ending in ''s''. The latest edition goes further: generally, Greek names in ''s'' get only the apostrophe. |
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Perhaps this is a trans-Atlantic difference in usage. But before the international incidents get under way, will supporters of '' Socrates's'' please give some citations? ] 17:39, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC) |
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:No desire for a dispute here! Hi, ''Beowulf king''. I didn't notice that just before my edit you had removed all the final possessive esses; good to know Chicago has a special category for Greek names. As a proofreader, I'm most glad to have learned another acceptable usage case. ]] 08:40, 2004 Mar 8 (UTC) |
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::Actually, I got it wrong, from memory, though close enough for this purpose. What they really say: "Names of more than one syllable with an unaccented ending pronounced ''-eez''"; and then there are Jesus' and Moses' cases as well. ] 22:28, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC) |
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::: Thanks for the double-check. I suppose Moses and Jesus both have unaccended last syllables. So if a hispanic user named JeSUS starts posting, we can safely have this argument again? ]] 08:16, 2004 Mar 9 (UTC) |
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=== And more and more === |
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However, the person whose unacceptable user name has been canceled (thanks, Ed) was right in the substance of the personal-attack comment that has been deleted per policy (thanks again): there are ''four'' Cardinal Virtues in Christian tradition, and I've never heard of the existence of a comparable earlier list with any number of entries. So I'm changing the text, subject to correction by anyone who have find a calssic Greek list of five. ] 19:55, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC) |
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== Socrates and Hemlock == |
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The article on ] contains the following statement: |
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:The Greek philosopher Socrates supposedly drank one of above toxic hemlocks to fulfil his execution sentence. However, this story is now known to be a myth, although Socrates is commonly linked to this form of suicide. |
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Does anyone have any modern references which can verify or disprove this statement that the story is a myth? ] | ] 03:48, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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:See ]. --] 03:25, 22 May 2004 (UTC) |
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== His claims == |
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It does Socrates an injustice to say that he ''claimed'' that it is better to suffer an injustice than to commit one; he argued it clearly and (some would say) convincingly. But may we have a statement of why it merely seems at first glance to be paradoxical when he claims to be wiser than others on the basis of his understanding that he knows nothing? It's a clever paradox, in fact. ] 08:25, May 22, 2004 (UTC) |
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:It isn't really a ]. The idea that one's ] includes the knowledge that one lacks knowledge does not conflict with a claim that one possesses knowledge; by such a statement, one demonstrates that one possesses knowledge beyond that of a person who lacks the knowledge that they lack knowledge. --] 12:56, 22 May 2004 (UTC) |
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== Greek form of name == |
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I've put in the ] form of his name with a ]. Does anyone have any opinions on whenther this is a Good Thing? If it is, I might do the same to other entries. Greek form checked in LSJ. ] 12:40, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) |
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== joints == |
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There are a couple of places where socrates mentions the problem of the joints. It seems linked to the problem of definition and categories. I've let this act as a core for which to form associations. Have you thought about it? I have some answers but would like to hear ideas unaffected by mine. Thanks. Wblakesx |
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