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{{Deceased Wikipedian}}
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== Sad news ==
Hello, and ] to Misplaced Pages. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a ]! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: &#126;&#126;&#126;. Four tildes (&#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the ], add a question to the ] or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!


I just got word from his brother that Angus passed away early on Friday morning. He had been battling ] for some time. I knew him both on and off Misplaced Pages, and am so sad that he is gone - ] <sup>]</sup> 12:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
] 21:06, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
: Sad indeed. ]. --] (]) 12:43, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
: - ] <sup>]</sup> 13:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
: How sad. RIP, Angus. --] | (]) 17:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
: A terrible loss, you will be remembered and missed. Rest in Peace, friend. ] (<small>]</small>) 18:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
: Urf. And cancer robs us of another one... ] - ] 18:56, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
: I'm sorry to hear this. I never knew Angus personally, but I've seen him around many times over the years. He will be missed. ] ] 04:17, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
: Angus was kind and helpful and did a mountain a good work. We will remember him. ] (]) 21:39, 19 November 2019 (UTC)


Really sorry to learn of this. Angus was a bit of a mentor for me when I started editing Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 18:33, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
== Personal sandbox ==


: Funeral details - ] <sup>]</sup> 03:06, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi there, just thought I'd let you know that your talk page should probably be reserved for comments. You might want to move your (rather fine) work on History of Scotland to a subpage, like a ]. Click ] to make one. Thanks, ]&nbsp;<sup>]]]</sup> 10:38, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)


I never knew Angus in real life, but I looked up to him as a Wikipedian. He was always kind and thoughtful. He contributed so much in content and discussion. I wish he were still here. Rest in peace Angus. --] (]) 02:23, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
== Fortriu ==


* Condolences to the family. ]! -] (]) 05:28, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
Your recent edit regarding Fortriu was a bad edit. Not only has it "recently been argued" it has been effectively proven. You'll have to take my word for it, because you don't know what you are talking about just now; I'd suggest emailing around, or what not. I've reproduced enough of the arguments to make a southern identification absurd. Reinserting Strathearn and Menteith is silly in any case, because even if it did correspond to S. Pictland, it's unlikely to follow the piffle in ]. - ] 16:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
* I just saw this in the Signpost; sad news indeed. Angus was an inspiration to me in my early days editing here, and a fine editor. He will be missed. ] (] - ] - ]) 13:16, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
* So sad to loose another great Wikipedian. All&nbsp;the&nbsp;best: '']&nbsp;]'',<small> 23:15, 5 January 2020 (UTC).</small><br />
* Condolences to the family and the en.wiki community. --] (]) 11:47, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
* Angus was a fine man, a dedicated and insightful Wikipedian. He will be greatly missed. ''']''' <small>(])</small> 23:22, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
* What a great friend and example Angus was to us with his steady, intelligent editing (very sound in Anglo-Saxon matters), his kindly support and his looked-for seasonal greetings. It is hard and very sad to part with him, but it was a privilege to travel here in his company. ] (]) 15:07, 17 March 2020 (UTC)


== '']'' ==
:Clearly I'm being incredibly stupid today. I'd like to blame it on overindulgence but that would be a lie. Biorhythms maybe ? Humble apologies. ] 17:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:#00000; border-width:2px; text-align:left; padding:7px; max-width:390px; border-radius: 1em; box-shadow: 1.3em 1.3em 1.3em rgba(0,0,0,0.75);>
== Dalriada and Pictavia ==
<gallery mode=packed heights="86px">
File:Candle (Slava celebration).jpg|alt="A candle"
File:Leucanthemopsis alpina01.jpg|alt="Flowers"
File:Japanese Peace Bell of United Nations.JPG|alt="The Japanese peace bell at the headquarters of the United Nations"
File:Bishkek 03-2016 img50 Eternal flame at Victory Square.jpg|alt="An eternal flame"
</gallery>


<center>We will remember your contributions and your service. Thank you. ].
Angus, a whole bunch of Pictish rulers are, in their titles, "of Dalriada". This is pretty spurious. They should all be moved to "of the Picts". Do you wish to help me move these to their proper locations? - ] 18:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
<br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;">] ]</span> 00:08, 13 January 2020 (UTC)</center></div>


== Precious anniversary ==
:Sure. I can do them all if you like. That's maybe easier. I have plenty time on my hands at the moment. ] 18:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
{{User QAIbox/auto|years=Eight}}
We'll remember you and your work here! --] (]) 08:38, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
:Just thought I'd add here, didn't know Angus at all, virtually or otherwise as far as I know, no doubt I have benefitted unknowingly from many of his contributions. Anyway came here as a result of searching through the many Scottish political maps he created on Commons, something I often view and use but have no experience in creating - another area where his input is clearly missed. So just thought I'd weigh in to the recognition of his efforts. My wife had lymphoma, must have been around the same time, a wee sneaky invasive cancer (not that any type is nice). Thankfully she survived. As anyone been awarded the Quaich yet? Seems a shame to create it but not to award it. ] (]) 19:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)


== The Quaich ==
:: Cool stuff. You agree that it's spurious, right? One problem you may encounter is that the "of the Picts" titles may be redirects, so you may have to change the names or something. I dunno; keep me posted if you have any problems.


:I can't think of what at the moment, but it would be nice and fitting if we could find some way of honoring / institutionalising his memory in some way, perhaps via one of the WikiProjects most associated with his work (Middle Ages, Scotland, etc). Some sort of Angusmclellan (Memorial) award or barnstar? ] (<small>]</small>) 18:15, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
:::Agree 100%. Just tried moving Constantine and indeed it doesn't like it as the page already exists as a redirect. That'll be Caustantín of the Picts then. ] 18:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
:::: Out of curiosity, why that form (i.e. ''Caustantín'')? Oh yeah, something else is that, despite being destroyed by the Picts, Dalriada is coming first in all these succession boxes. Dunno if that bothers you as me. - ] 19:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


::An excellent idea. I never knew Angus personally, but what limited interaction I had with him on WP was always helpful and extremely positive. How about the "McLellan Quaich" for excellent contributions to Scottish coverage in Misplaced Pages? Just a thought. --] ] 20:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
:::::It was a toss up between one-t and two-ts. Two-ts appears first in Broun's entry on him in Lynch's companion. Well, the Dalriada stuff is all over the place. It would be a big job fixing it. What I am thinking (I dunno if you're thinking the same, I'm not Michael Howard) is that it might be as well to have a "kings of the Picts and Fortriu" article (and a "kings of Dalriada" one) and stick everything in there. Well, it's an idea anyway. If you think one-t is more correct, then I will change it. Drust of Dalriada has the same issue with a redirect page of the same name. I think that needs a request to move it (either that or I'll copy & paste it, which is not the done thing, but who cares ? I know which is more likely). Most of those "lists of this" and "lists of that" are a complete waste of time.
:::::: LOL. OK. The forms vary anyways, so it doesn't really matter. Fraser has ''Custantín''. You are correct that the Dalriada stuff is all over the place. This is a difficult area, as I'm sure you appreciate, so most editors don't really know how to handle the information; the emerging scholarly consensus that Dalriada was destroyed in the 8th century has not even begun to creep into popular knowledge. Numbering the Pictish kings is in itself problematic. ''Drust'' I think is the Pictish form (and indeed a Pictish name), although I wouldn't want to number him (but this is being done in any case). One of the problems with naming is which kings do you give Gaelic names, and when Pictish names, since it is silly to take Cináed mac Ailpín's reign as a breaking point. I agree, btw, that most of these lists of are more misleading than helpful; but sadly, inevitable on a popular editing platform like wiki. The best we can do is insert long commentaries, which is very time consuming, and they probably wouldn't be read in any case. - ] 20:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


:::The 'McLellan Quaich' sounds great! ] (<small>]</small>) 12:52, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
::::::: I changed ] to ]; I know you're probably systematizing this in your head, so I hope I didn't screw anything up. If I did, it's easy enough to revert back. It just seemed a little odd to have this Drust in particular as merely Drust of the Picts. - ] 20:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


::::A very sad loss indeed. Angus was knowledgeable, able, kindly and disinclined to get involved in drama - I echo Brianann's comments above and support the 'McLellan Quaich' idea. ] ]] 16:42, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
:::::::: Shit, I just noticed that the List of Pictish Kings goes from Drest VII to Drust IX (same names, Scottish and Pictish). Is this explainable, or is it a mistake. - ] 20:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


PS Here's a start:
::::::::: Always did. After checking, the prob is that there are two Drest VI's, Drest f. Donnel in the 660s and Drest f. Talorgan in the 720s. I'll fix that later. Now I'm off to watch Life on Mars on BBC1. It reminds me of just how crap the 1970s were. ] 21:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
{| style="border: 1px solid black; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The McLellan Quaich'''</font>
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid black;" |<font color="#000000"> Awarded to 'User:xx' for outstanding contributions to Scottish coverage in Misplaced Pages.
|}


:::::Deacon's idea is very fitting and Cactus.man's proposal for a ''McLellan Quaich'' coupled with Ben MacDui's design of such an award are ideal. --] | (]) 19:34, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
You can work on all the pages with the information you have. My sources are probably the most shotty of them all. I've been using bits of information from mixed with stuff from and the links located therein (pretty good site). I generally work on making pages look decent and cleaning up the succession boxes at the bottom (since I created the current succession box format). When I run across good (and historic, if not reliable) information at a website, I often will integrate it in. I also clean up the name field so that the alternate spellings are available in parenthesis. Finally, I try to standardize the dates of reigns so that they do not look like <br><center>"'''Bredei VIII of the Picts''', or '''Bob''', or '''Mike''', king of the ] (r. ]-891]]) and the son of Steve."</center>
Yeah, that is not a nice looking form. I generally standardize it to something like<br>
<center>"'''Bredei VIII''' (]: ''Brude mac Stephen'') was ] of the ] from ] until ]. He was the son and successor of ]."</center>
See the difference?


::::::Thanks to {{yo|Ben MacDui}} for knocking up a prototype award. Can I suggest using the following image instead: ]. I think it's an improvement because it's a cleaner representation of the quality of siversmith work and celtic imagery typically crafted into the handles.
So in regard to your requests, I often forget to source my information. It is from historic sources, that much I can tell you, but expand on it or remove it all you want. Some people have been going through and thrashing my Dalriada pages anyway since apparently there is controvery over if the kingdom ever existed, so I am rather tired of working on stuff that people just erase or remove. Regardless, have fun and I hope you find good infomation. I can try to help if you need it. Cheer!<br>&ndash;] 20:05, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


::::::{| style="border: 1px solid black; background-color: #fdffe7;"
:Thanks ! That was a quick reply (feel free to trash this conversation when done). I believe that the Annals of Ulster and of Tigernach are *usually* the most useful on Scotland, and they seem to have fewer dating problems than the Four Masters (which goes to pot in places, certainly c730, but is fine in others). The Annals of Innisfallen haven't been a goldmine, but the Annals of Clonmacnoise have been handy sometimes, although the fact that they're in the ancient format Cornell and whoever adopted for the Making of America project aeons ago does make them harder to use than text. It must be wonderful to just look up an edited book, like Skene or Anderson, rather than trawling through the online versions.
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The McLellan Quaich'''</font>
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid black;" |<font color="#000000"> Awarded to 'User:xx' for outstanding contributions to Scottish coverage in Misplaced Pages.
|}


::::::] ] 22:38, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
:There's no controversy over the existence of Dál Riada. There are over its origins, its fate, its connections to Ireland, the value and meaning of the ''Senchus'', the extent to which the Annals present a Cenél nGabráin bias, and more besides. There are good grounds to think that kings have been added and subtracted in the 8th and 9th centuries, but Aedan mac Gabráin and Domnall Brecc were as real as can be. Compared to many other such lists, the list of kings of Dál Riada is a paragon of accuracy of which you should be proud ! ] 20:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


::::::: Brilliant! ] (<small>]</small>) 16:19, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
== Great Work ==
:::::::{{yo|Cactus.man}} Excellent. ] ]] 18:53, 6 December 2019 (UTC)


Thought I would advance the Quaich a bit so created a template, ], to make its issue a bit easier. It's ] code but modified the colours in line with ]. Any changes needed?--] | (]) 15:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
], I , ], hereby award you '''Epic Barnstar'''. Congratulations! <small>]</small>]]
<br clear=all/>


Just saw this, after looking at ]. And I think the idea is a nice one. As the image isn't a "barnstar", I added the award to ]. I'll add a link to ]'s template as well. - <b>]</b> 04:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
Keep up the good work. - ] 19:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
==] nomination of ]==
]


A tag has been placed on ] indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a ], a ], a ], under discussion at ], or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under ].
== Duan Albanach ==


If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may '''contest the nomination''' by ] and removing the speedy deletion tag. <!-- Template:Db-catempty-notice --> <!-- Template:Db-csd-notice-custom --> <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for opening ]. I'm not sure that tag should be there; it's not finished, but it ain't bad quality. BTW, I recommend you read Thomas Clancy's “Scotland, the ‘Nennian’ recension of the Historia Brittonum, and the Lebor Bretnach”, in Simon Taylor (ed.) ''Kings, Clerics and Chronicles in Scotland'', 500-1297, (Dublin/Portland, 2000), pp. 87-107. The article essentially proves that the Lebor Bretnach was written in Scotland, probably at Abernethy. If it's of interest to you, it contains a relatively "un-Gaelicized" Pictish king-list that goes all the way up to the reign of Máel Coluim III. These king lists contain a kind of charter granted by the Pictish king ] to the monastery - it's just an interesting point; it's maybe why the monastery at Abernethy preserved the list. Have a good one. - ] 00:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


== Redirect listed at ] ==
:Thanks. I'll read it tomorrow ! ] 01:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


]

A redirect or redirects you have created has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink| Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 13#Redirects. with periods following "the" }}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:Rfd mass notice --> ] ]∫] 14:12, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
== Celtic/Pictish/Alternate Names ==

'''Please do not leave comments here. In order to continue discussion in a public forum, I suggest that any additional comments be added ]. Thanks !''' ] 19:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Angus McClellan, we seem to be some of the more prominent editors of early Scottish pages so we should decide something. What name should be used throughout pages where the Celtic version of the name varies with the English or more modern version. Cínaed obviously is the person I concern most recently, although others throughout (Donalds/Domnalls) also cause problems. I believe that the name should reflect the name of the article, in which case we should rename ]s page to something more specific. Also, who was the authority that established Kenneth as the first king of all Alba? It may be smart to change his name to something like ] or ]. On that note, should the questionable kings of Dalriada be called such, or should we beging using a different locational name (ie. of the Scots). These problems should probably be resolved through agreement or others will revert the names throughout also. Always good working and talking with you, Angus. Peace with you.<br>&ndash;] 22:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

:Kevin, I honestly do not know. From a purely selfish POV (i.e. I have a bog standard QWERTY keyboard), it's not a great idea to have accents in titles. I would certainly like some other opinions, from ], ], ] and ] at least. I appreciate there are arguments about name space consistency, and I do think those have to be taken into account. Not that they are everywhere as we'll see. Given that the page name appears in big friendly letters, we clearly need to have a nod and wink in that direction. OTOH, we could easily link the namespace standard page to a non-namespace standard one, i.e. '''Kenneth I of Scotland''' redirects to '''Cínead mac Ailpín''', '''Aedan of Dalriada''' redirects to '''Áedan mac Gabhraín''' (or whatever precise orthographic standard we should happen to adopt). Redirects, says the WP techy stuff, are cheap, don't stint on them. But standards are also cheap, which is why everyone has their own. Russian rulers simply don't follow any standard. '''Andrei Bogolyubsky''', '''Vsevolod III''', but it redirects to '''Vsevolod the Big Nest''' (duh !), '''Ivan I of Russia''' (''of Russia ?'' Hmmm) with '''Ivan Kalita''' as a redirect. What a mess ! Obviously we don't want to end up like that. Can I move this discussion to ], or ], or some other general forum ? Please let me know ! ] 22:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
:Using English names for these guys is silly, and goes against scholarly trends. Giving English names implies they are English (this is actually a real effect), and you'll see if you go through Polish or Lithuanian rulers native names are given. Moreover, the only way to gain consistency is by using the contemporary names, because many medieval Gaelic names have no anglicization. Anglicized naming also fulfils ]; K did not exist in pre-Norman insular languages for instance. Why not, for instance, call Aed of Scotland Hugh of Scotland (looks stupid doesn't it)? Máel Coluim to Malcolm - fair enough, what do you do with Máel Snechtai or Máel Brigte, names which have no anglicization. So you'll have the word Máel written twice on the same page in different forms. Most silly. It also implies that Máel Coluim was not Gaelic, but Máel Snechtai/Máel Brigte was; false and misleading. I have a consistent naming policy which[REDACTED] ought to adopt, one followed by Scottish historians - generally outlined here: . As a rule, when I employ medieval Gaelic names, I omit lenition for people born before 1200, and retain it for people born after 1200; i.e. Domnall but, after 1200, Domhnall. Generally, As get inserted after Es in certain names, Ferchar but Fearchar, Fergus but Fearghus; áe becomes ao (i.e. Máel Coluim, but Maol Choluim/Maol Chaluim). - '''] ('']'')''' ] 23:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

::I agree with the general point, but being a sad techie, the nomenclature and name space aspects do interest me a little. The article on ''Donnchad ua Máel Coluim'' does now, and forever will, say '''''Duncan I of Scotland''''' at the top. Should it ? Or should it be titled '''''Donnchad ua Máel Coluim''''', and mention ''Duncan I'' on the page ? At which point should we switch to king names in English (after Domnall Bán mac Donnchada I suppose) ? We could keep those who want a consistent naming system - X Y of Z - happy with pages Duncan I of Scotland, Kenneth I of Scotland and the rest, but redirect all of those pages where we would like to have a different name to a another page, called, e.g. ], ]. There are a few cases where we would need to disambiguate two people with identical name and patronym. Óengus mac Fergusa, Drest son of Talorgan and maybe Talorgan son of Drest come to mind, and I think only the first is absolutely necessary. We can avoid the question of whether to use mac or map for Pictish kings by making most of them "son of" and leaving map/mac for the reasonably clear cut cases. There must be few kings of the Picts, Scots, or Dál Riada, Mormaers, or other significant personalities, who would have an article about them and who do not have a patronym, matronym or some sort of eponym which would uniquely distinguish them. I am more than willing to do the donkey work if there is a consensus for change, and if there is a consensus on the '''standard''' form of the names to be adopted. I regularly have nothing to do for five or ten minutes in the office, which is enough to do this sort of stuff, but not enough to do anything more useful. ] 23:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
::: Well, there are guides for[REDACTED] naming of rulers that the "X of Country" should generally be the formula; and titles for kings, I do think, should follow that formula. If you attempted to move "Malcolm II of Scotland" to "Máel Coluim II of Scotland", you'd get opposition. In general, the kings of Scotland are usually best known by their English names. But this doesn't mean we should actively anglicize Gaelic names. Only the kings and one or two other folk are famous enough in the English-speaking world to be referred to more commonly by their Anglicized names, but otherwise there's no excuse for using anglicizations. Moreover, I don't see why the name in the title should dictate the name in the text (e.g. ]). Lastly, as almost every active historian in the area uses now uses Gaelic forms for Gaelic names, using these forms could deter users who don't have a clue what they're talking about adding garbage to the articles; if wiki editors had done this in the first place, the articles for the early Scottish kings wouldn't be as garbage as they now are. - '''] ('']'')''' ] 23:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

:::: Yes, but I am not suggesting (re)moving them. Those pages would still exist. They would be a redirect is all. That seems to comply with the standard. As I understand it. Not that I did anything as mundane as try to find it. Some anonymous Finnish person today changed loads of references in articles from like this ] to like this ] (but not just for Scots articles), and changed every reference to the subject (let's say Malcolm II) from like this "Malcolm died in ..." to "Malcolm II died in ...". I suppose we can count ourselves lucky it wasn't changed to "Malcolm II of Scotland died in ...". It may be that the anonymous editor thought they were doing a good deed. ] 00:02, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

There are two considerations as i see it. Firstly this is the English language[REDACTED] and must cater for whichever form of the name has priority in that language. Secondly the entire purpose of[REDACTED] and encyclopedias generally is to provide information, to educate and this requires that we use the historically/linguistically/ethnically correct forms of names. I dont see what could possibly be objectionable about having the anglicized form of a name acting as a redirect ( Such as Donald ) to the correct and accurate native version of the name - Domnall. The points raised by Calgacus regarding the perception, and possible misconception, of Rulers/People is very valid imo. We should be wary of pandering to convenience and LCD. Disqualifying a fact due to general ignorance of it seems a very strange thing to do in what acts as a source of information and reference. This is especially pertinent with regard to Scotland which already suffers a phenomenal level of misunderstanding, misconception and outright ignorance regarding the history of the nation and maintaining this via the deliberate anglicization of the names of Scottish monarchs from their correct, native Scottish, forms seems to me to go entirely against the principle of the project and does nothing but propagate and encourage continued ignorance and misunderstanding.]

:I concur. The point of this encyclopedia is to educate individuals. Most Scottish/Pictish kings did not use the names they have on this website ever in their lifetime. True many of the latter ones (after Kenneth) have been anglicised, but I think they should be reverted to their actual names until the kings began using English versions of the names themselves. Malcolm...pah! He deserves his real name as the page's title. But we should make sure all monarchs on all[REDACTED] pages follow a standard form (ie _______ of _______) because surnames are just dumb to have in their title.<br>&ndash;] 09:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

There is an awful lot of common sense and intelligent thought being voiced here. It is a bit of a shame that this discussion is taking place at a User Talk page though: Angus' suggestion of ] or ] was wise (yeah, I know that it would encourage lots of "uninformed" comment, but we need some consensus, among the experts but also among us all). I would like to make it very clear that I have no experise whatever in this field. Indeed, as a republican I tend to touch any monarchy/royalty topics with a clothespeg over my nose. I am also (nearly) pig ignorant in Gaelic, although like most Scots I have a very strong family and emotional attachment to the Gaidhealtachd (and know one corner of it like the back of my hand). Intro over, can I just highlight some points:
*''"Given that the page name appears in big friendly letters, we clearly need to have a nod and wink in that direction".'' Indeed we do: in the very first sentence in fact, and consistently throughout the rest of the article.
*''"Using English names for these guys is silly".'' Mmmm... yes and no: this is the English-language edition of Misplaced Pages. The title should be the one in most common use (and that means '''common''' use, not '''academic''' use). Kenneth MacAlpin is a no-brainer: it is by a million miles the most common way of referring to that person in English-language contexts.
*''"Giving English names implies they are English."'' Probably, but in that case the article should make crystal clear that they are not. It is a common problem with many anglicised names: it tends to bring the topic artificially closer to the anglophone reader.
*''"the only way to gain consistency is by using the contemporary names, because many medieval Gaelic names have no anglicization."'' Misplaced Pages is very clear on this point: ]. If all the sources use one name: do not on any account alter it, in any way.
*''"the only way to gain consistency".'' Misplaced Pages does not really care much about consistency: what it cares about is that each article can stand up on its own two feet, via sound sources. I concur with that approach. "Consistency" requires centralisation and authority: veeerrry un-Wiki attributes.
*'''"Well, there are guides for[REDACTED] naming of rulers that the "X of Country" should generally be the formula"''' This is a crucial piont. Note that it is only a guideline and NOT official Misplaced Pages policy, but I consider it to be a very wise guideline indeed.
*'''"In general, the kings of Scotland are usually best known by their English names"'''. Another absolutely critical point, which pretty much closes the casebook on any potential re-name of monarch articles.
*''"But this doesn't mean we should actively anglicize Gaelic names"'' No, because that would be Original research.
*''"Firstly this is the English language[REDACTED] and must cater for whichever form of the name has priority in that language"''. Hit the nail on the head there.
*''"Secondly the entire purpose of[REDACTED] and encyclopedias generally is to provide information, to educate and this requires that we use the historically/linguistically/ethnically correct forms of names."'' Mmmm... not if it is Original research. Misplaced Pages is not about what is "correct", it is purely about correctly reporting what the respected sources say, EVEN if what the respected sources say is absolute rubbish (from your Point Of View). In other words: Misplaced Pages is all about lowest common denominator information: that is the quintessential nature of the beast.
*''"The point of this encyclopedia is to educate individuals"''. Yes and no: the point is to accurately report what bona fide sources say on topics. Misplaced Pages itself should say absolutely nothing on any topic whatsoever (in articles). To do so would break NPOV.
*''" Most Scottish/Pictish kings did not use the names they have on this website ever in their lifetime"'' Utterly irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what the commonest modern English-language context usage is.
Right, enough from me. Do you want to leave this discussion here, or can we move it somewhere more public, so that if we do reach consensus, it really is a consensus, and not just a cabal. (You guys really ought to start up a WikiProject: it would give you a legitimate public forum, and carries greater authority among the wider Misplaced Pages community. Dead easy to start up I understand.--] 19:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

== Pictish revision ==

In your overhaul of the entry on Picts, you say that ''Brochs are sometimes popularly associated with the Picts, but these date from earlier in the Iron Age, with construction ending around 100 AD, although brochs may have been used into, and beyond, the Pictish period''. I just wanted to point out that several brochs show clear and dateable reuse throughout the "Pictish" period. The broch at Yarrows in Caithness is a good example, where a Pictish settlement grew around the outside of an existing broch (probably a broch tower), which was in itself re-roofed at a lower level and re-inhabited. It is by no means unique, or even unusual, in this regard. Good job on the overhaul, by the way. ] 12:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks very much. I wasn't 100% certain, hence the weaselly "may". I'll fix that. If there's anything else, please yell ! ] 12:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 14:12, 13 December 2024

This Wikipedian is deceased. Respectful comments of remembrance may be left below.
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Sad news

I just got word from his brother that Angus passed away early on Friday morning. He had been battling lymphoma for some time. I knew him both on and off Misplaced Pages, and am so sad that he is gone - Alison 12:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Sad indeed. Look above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:43, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
link - Alison 13:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
How sad. RIP, Angus. --Bill Reid | (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
A terrible loss, you will be remembered and missed. Rest in Peace, friend. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Urf. And cancer robs us of another one... Ealdgyth - Talk 18:56, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear this. I never knew Angus personally, but I've seen him around many times over the years. He will be missed. Kurtis 04:17, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Angus was kind and helpful and did a mountain a good work. We will remember him. Haukur (talk) 21:39, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Really sorry to learn of this. Angus was a bit of a mentor for me when I started editing Misplaced Pages. Finn Rindahl (talk) 18:33, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Funeral details here - Alison 03:06, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

I never knew Angus in real life, but I looked up to him as a Wikipedian. He was always kind and thoughtful. He contributed so much in content and discussion. I wish he were still here. Rest in peace Angus. --Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 02:23, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

In memoriam

  • "A candle"
  • "Flowers"
  • "The Japanese peace bell at the headquarters of the United Nations"
  • "An eternal flame"
We will remember your contributions and your service. Thank you. Requiescat in pace.
↠Pine (✉) 00:08, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious
Eight years!

We'll remember you and your work here! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Just thought I'd add here, didn't know Angus at all, virtually or otherwise as far as I know, no doubt I have benefitted unknowingly from many of his contributions. Anyway came here as a result of searching through the many Scottish political maps he created on Commons, something I often view and use but have no experience in creating - another area where his input is clearly missed. So just thought I'd weigh in to the recognition of his efforts. My wife had lymphoma, must have been around the same time, a wee sneaky invasive cancer (not that any type is nice). Thankfully she survived. As anyone been awarded the Quaich yet? Seems a shame to create it but not to award it. Crowsus (talk) 19:00, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

The Quaich

I can't think of what at the moment, but it would be nice and fitting if we could find some way of honoring / institutionalising his memory in some way, perhaps via one of the WikiProjects most associated with his work (Middle Ages, Scotland, etc). Some sort of Angusmclellan (Memorial) award or barnstar? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:15, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
An excellent idea. I never knew Angus personally, but what limited interaction I had with him on WP was always helpful and extremely positive. How about the "McLellan Quaich" for excellent contributions to Scottish coverage in Misplaced Pages? Just a thought. --Cactus.man ✍ 20:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
The 'McLellan Quaich' sounds great! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:52, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
A very sad loss indeed. Angus was knowledgeable, able, kindly and disinclined to get involved in drama - I echo Brianann's comments above and support the 'McLellan Quaich' idea. Ben MacDui 16:42, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

PS Here's a start:

The McLellan Quaich
Awarded to 'User:xx' for outstanding contributions to Scottish coverage in Misplaced Pages.
Deacon's idea is very fitting and Cactus.man's proposal for a McLellan Quaich coupled with Ben MacDui's design of such an award are ideal. --Bill Reid | (talk) 19:34, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Thanks to @Ben MacDui: for knocking up a prototype award. Can I suggest using the following image instead: File: Quaich.jpg. I think it's an improvement because it's a cleaner representation of the quality of siversmith work and celtic imagery typically crafted into the handles.
The McLellan Quaich
Awarded to 'User:xx' for outstanding contributions to Scottish coverage in Misplaced Pages.
Cactus.man ✍ 22:38, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Brilliant! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:19, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
@Cactus.man: Excellent. Ben MacDui 18:53, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Thought I would advance the Quaich a bit so created a template, Template:The McLellan Quaich, to make its issue a bit easier. It's Cactus.man's code but modified the colours in line with Misplaced Pages: Talk page templates. Any changes needed?--Bill Reid | (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Just saw this, after looking at Misplaced Pages:Deceased Wikipedians. And I think the idea is a nice one. As the image isn't a "barnstar", I added the award to Misplaced Pages:Personal user awards/Topics. I'll add a link to User:Billreid's template as well. - jc37 04:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Unreferenced Kent-related articles

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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz 08:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

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