| Revision as of 05:02, 27 November 2007 editCumulus Clouds (talk | contribs)6,434 edits →Title← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 00:44, 20 December 2024 edit undoJas88 (talk | contribs)63 edits →Guede speaks: ReplyTag: Reply |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
|
{{pp-move-indef|small=yes}} |
|
==Title== |
|
|
|
{{Talk header|search=yes}} |
|
Is it appropriate to call this page "...Murder..." when no charges have been brought, there is no apparent motive, and everyone suspected denies involvement in the killing? Since her killing is supposed to have taken place during 'violent sex play', is it not quite possible that it was accidental and will eventually lead to manslaughter charges, rather than murder? It seems to me the article is prejudging an ongoing investigation, which is hardly appropriate for an encyclopedia. I suggest the word 'Murder' in the title be changed to 'Death' or 'Killing'.] (]) 18:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
{{Notice|1=This talk page is semi-protected. If you want to request an edit on this page click ]}} |
|
:*Well it would be very hard to argue a case for manslaughter when the evidence suggests that Kercher died from blood loss after a knife punctured her carotid artery. I think it would be difficult to argue that such a circumstance would ever be accidental and therefore anything but murder. Lastly, all the sources indicate that it was a murder, the Italian police are treating is a murder and a judge has detained suspects on suspicion of murder so I honestly don't know what else you could call this. ] (]) 19:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
{{British English|date=September 2010}} |
|
::*I don't follow your argument that a knife wound to the carotid artery cannot be accidental, though of course even a deliberate but unpremeditated stabbing might not amount to murder. People are killed by knives both accidentally and without premeditation. There are other possibilities; insanity on the part of the killer, for example. We don't know until the investigation is complete.] (]) 01:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
{{Afd-merged-from|Trial of Knox and Sollecito|Trial of Knox and Sollecito|19 December 2009}} |
|
:::*Based on the mountain of evidence presented by the police, prosecution, defense and pathologist, I see no way that Kercher's death could ever be ruled accidental, sorry. Likewise, whether or not this crime was premeditated makes no difference in the classification of murder. ] (]) 05:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
{{ITN talk|5 December|2009}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=B|blp=other|listas=Kercher, Murder Of Meredith| |
|
|
{{WikiProject Biography}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Death|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject International relations|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Italy|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject United Kingdom|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Women}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors|user=Corinne|date=5 December 2015}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{top 25 report|January 26, 2014}} |
|
|
{{Banner holder|collapsed=yes| |
|
|
{{Merged-from|Meredith Kercher|13 November 2007}} |
|
|
{{Merged-from|Amanda Knox|13 November 2007}}}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|
|maxarchivesize = 100K |
|
|
|counter = 38 |
|
|
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|
|
|algo = old(30d) |
|
|
|archive = Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
|
|target=/Archive index |
|
|
|mask=/Archive <#> |
|
|
|leading_zeros=0 |
|
|
|indexhere=yes}} |
|
|
{{Annual readership}} |
|
|
|
|
|
==Merger== |
|
==Guede speaks== |
|
|
. He claims that Knox was present at the murder. Probably should be included in this article. ] (]) 23:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC) |
|
I have merged these two articles into a single entry covering only the event, per the comments ]. The information at the start and end of the article was taken from ''Meredith Kercher'', since I believe deference should be given to the victim instead of the suspects in the articles' lead, similar to ]. I have taken information about the crime itself and its investigation from the body of the article for ''Amanda Knox.'' This was only because I had cited all the information in that section and I was familiar with the formatting. I recognize that that section frequently employs Knox's name and that there will be some bias to it, because I was the main editor for that section. I encourage others to edit it further to bring it close to ]. If this merger was premature, please let me know here or leave a message on my ]. Thank you. ] 03:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:Sorry, but I think that precedent is wrong; this page is about a notable event not about an otherwise nn person nor is it a tribute to that person. We thrashed this out at ] where the bio is, rightly, at the end. ] 05:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::*It made more sense to me to have the brief biographic intro towards the beginning, if only to describe the players involved in the event itself. I don't disagree about the nature of the article, though. ] 05:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::We are going to have to add bios about the suspects as well and my view is that they should form a reference-type section at the end. The reader wants the meat of the article early and then the background info later. The lead, rightly, introduces the victim and why she was there. ] 05:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::::*Also, ] will likely remove the current events template from this article, since he expressed his view on ] that that article doesn't satisfy the criteria of ]. Just something to consider. ] 05:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:It's already noted that he initially denied she was there (on the police tape) then changed his story on that point. ] (]) 00:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC) |
|
==Prosecutorial Assertions== |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== links to original case files and documents] (]) 00:07, 13 January 2020 (UTC) == |
|
I have changed "The prosecutor has asserted that Knox held Kercher down while..." into the "The police allegedly suspect that Knox may have held Kercher down while...". I have read the article cited as source and it reads "Police believe that Ms Knox held the victim down during a prolonged sexual assault by Mr Lumbumba, gripping her fingers so tightly that she left an imprint on Ms Kercher's skin. When Ms Kercher continued to resist a knife was drawn and her skin was punctured." The police may believe in a lot of different scenarios at the erlier stages of an investigation. A prosecutor in most cases makes assertions when factual evidence is already available; besides, it's a possibility not a certainty and the source cited is a newspaper, not an official police or prosecutor's report. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi fellow Wikipedians, |
|
:*Well, I'll give you that the source doesn't say anything about what the prosecutors believe. However, multiple sources have given detailed accounts about what the police think happened in this case, so it would be improper to say "police allegedly suspect" since we several confirmed accounts of what the police are suspecting happened in this case. Also including the phrase "may have held" isn't really appropriate, given that they aren't so much pondering the question as accusing Knox of doing it. ] 21:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have posted online 1000s of documents related to the murder case including police investigation reports, prosecutor files, defense team reports, courtroom testimony, court motivation reports, etc. The website is http:/www.themurderofmeredithkercher.net. Is it okay to put links to some of the original case files? |
|
==Article sources== |
|
|
This page is so conventional. It's sources are just newspapers. And the source of newspapers is fantasy. One makes up a datum or a piece of the story and all the others follow it. And[REDACTED] follows them. Who was trying to give direct data, like the local website (blog removed) has been prevented. Good like this, keep blocking the truth. Follow the flock, and the stupid rules. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are also a few minor mistakes in the otherwise good article (as one example: Meredith didn't have seven knife wounds; she suffered two major knife wounds and 10 minor ones and at least 39 distinct bruises.) I can provide links to the original autopsy report and a few of the follow-up consultant reports. Any report, presentation, photo or video the website has been censored out of respect for the Kercher family. |
|
==Links== |
|
|
Was MK studying at Universita' per Stranieri? Link to external site if she was. |
|
|
] 13:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not sure if linking to 'original' case documents is acceptable in this particular case. |
|
== Amanda Knox == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for your efforts! Marcello |
|
I think that there should be either more information regarding the other two suspects, or less of a focus on Amanda, because although the only sources for this article are sensationalized, the consensus throughout most of the internet (which is like[REDACTED] more: accurate than any single reporter) is that she didn't have much to do with it (other than the gruesome fingerprint evidence). Also, should there be biographies of the suspects and of Meredith Kercher as well, or should this article exist principally for the purpose of news? |
|
|
<br /> |
|
|
What do you think? |
|
|
<br /> |
|
|
(----) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
:*I agree and the focus on Amanda Knox should be weakened. We should opt to include the same amount of small material about the other suspects -as opposed to more about all three- because of the concerns you've raised about notability. The reason the body contains that focus on Knox is because I copied it directly out of the former ] article when I created this one, which I only did because I was more familiar with the reference and style there. I would ask that you please revise it to remove this anomaly, if you don't mind. ] (]) 01:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Murder of Meredith Kercher edit warring == |
|
== This article does not belong in an Encyclopedia == |
|
|
The story of one girl's murder, although tragic, does not belong in an Encyclopedia. I suggest we delete this article from Misplaced Pages and move it to WikiNews. ] (]) 16:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:When publicity is sufficiently extensive then a page can move over the boundary between news and encyclopaedia, and this one does. ] (]) 16:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::Misplaced Pages is an Encyclopedia, not a murder news archive. Furthermore, Kerchner is not a famous or notable person. ] (]) 17:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::She is not notable but her murder is. ] (]) 17:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Kercher's murder is not notable and it smacks of recentism. Hundreds of young women are murdered each year. Her story is tragic, but it is neither notable or special. ] (]) 00:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::*It is notable because of the media coverage being given to the case. This is evidenced by the amount of citations and the easily referenceable material in the case. As ] pointed out, neither ] or ] are notable in their own right, but this event is, so both of those articles were merged into this one to focus only on this event. ] (]) 18:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::Would one of you please show me how to nominate an article for deletion? ] (]) 15:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::]. ] (]) 16:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
: Ordinarily, one murder is not notable. However, given the '''immense international attention''' this particular murder has received '''over the last 3 weeks''' it is notable. Why is it OK to have an article for ], -- ] | ] 18:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
::Because there is a convention that places are sufficiently notable for their own article. I have to say that I think that is dubious but there we are. On this particular article it crosses the threshold because not only of the widespread media comment but the fact that it is an international event reported across the world. ] (]) 23:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
: Actually, that was my point. My comment got cut off mid-sentence, but it goes along the lines of if a relatively obscure place like ] has an article, then this with it's widespread international attention, should have an article. -- ] | ] 18:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
] ] |
|
== Prose tag == |
|
|
{{done}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
<blockquote> |
|
I have removed the prose tag. This is a reference section that is better as a bulletted list, in my view. Having said that, if someone wants to prose it I won't resist that. In principle, if someone wants a section prosed then just do it! ] (]) 17:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
:::'''Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher: Revision history''' |
|
:ok ] (]) 21:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC) |
|
|
|
*2021-08-14T16:28:22 '''Binksternet''' talk contribs 2,981 bytes −1,854 →edit warring: rv... that's not for the article talk page undothank Tag: Manual revert |
|
|
|
|
|
*2021-08-14T16:25:16 '''0mtwb9gd5wx''' talk contribs 4,835 bytes +1,854 →Murder of Meredith Kercher edit warring: User:Lard Almighty User:Binksternet undo Tag: Reverted |
|
|
</blockquote> |
|
|
<blockquote> |
|
|
:::'''User talk:0mtwb9gd5wx''' |
|
|
|
|
|
You may be '''] without further warning''' the next time you violate Misplaced Pages's ] by edit warring, as you did at ]. <!-- Template:uw-npov4 --> '''User:Binksternet''' |
|
|
</blockquote> |
|
|
|
|
|
<blockquote> |
|
|
:::'''User talk:Binksterne''' |
|
|
|
|
|
'''0mtwb9gd5wx''', the ] is on you to gather consensus for your additions by starting a talk page discussion. You can't just keep adding your preferred version after others have removed it, no matter how many warnings you deliver to the people opposing you. When there is a dispute about article content, the disputed material stays out until consensus is clear to put it in. Your next move is to argue your case on the talk page. '''Binksternet''' (talk) 23:27, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
</blockquote> |
|
|
|
|
|
::{{u|Lard Almighty}}{{u|Binksternet}} , I have not added my preferred version, I corrected deficiencies, and added improvements based on similar articles. The complaints you made were you made were implemented, yet {{u|Lard Almighty}}{{u|Binksternet}} still deleted a string of all my edits with '''etc''' as your only reason. Why dont you complain about each delete separately ? ] (]) 23:56, 14 August 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::Per ], you can make a case for your changes right here. You can talk about each of your changes separately if you wish. ] (]) 00:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
::: ]: "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" |
|
|
::: <nowiki>]</nowiki> what is the complaint {{ping|Lard Almighty}}{{ping|Binksternet}} ? ] (]) 01:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
::::The nearby link to '']'' is the better target for the reader. It's more relevant to this bio. ] (]) 01:28, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Suspect arrests == |
|
|
Can somebody add a paragraph about the arrests of the suspects? It would be a great addition just after the "Discovery of the body" section. ] (]) 17:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
Oops. Please disregard my previous post. The info is already in the article. Sorry. ] (]) 17:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== "Patrick Lumumba" redirects here == |
|
|
|
|
|
What about we get rid of the redirect link here? He is a minor character in the whole story. And having a reference to him at the top - even as a redirect notice - provides some level of bias to the article. On the other hand the other Lumumba, the congolese politician, is a prominent character and there's no doubt which of the two bearing this surname is notable in Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 11:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:A bit late to the party, but the politician is actually called ], and generic ] redirects to the politician. ] (]) 11:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC) |
I have posted online 1000s of documents related to the murder case including police investigation reports, prosecutor files, defense team reports, courtroom testimony, court motivation reports, etc. The website is http:/www.themurderofmeredithkercher.net. Is it okay to put links to some of the original case files?
There are also a few minor mistakes in the otherwise good article (as one example: Meredith didn't have seven knife wounds; she suffered two major knife wounds and 10 minor ones and at least 39 distinct bruises.) I can provide links to the original autopsy report and a few of the follow-up consultant reports. Any report, presentation, photo or video the website has been censored out of respect for the Kercher family.
I'm not sure if linking to 'original' case documents is acceptable in this particular case.
Can somebody add a paragraph about the arrests of the suspects? It would be a great addition just after the "Discovery of the body" section. 199.102.241.68 (talk) 17:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Oops. Please disregard my previous post. The info is already in the article. Sorry. 199.102.241.68 (talk) 17:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
What about we get rid of the redirect link here? He is a minor character in the whole story. And having a reference to him at the top - even as a redirect notice - provides some level of bias to the article. On the other hand the other Lumumba, the congolese politician, is a prominent character and there's no doubt which of the two bearing this surname is notable in Misplaced Pages. --2001:B07:AE5:D54B:A184:822D:FEF3:4AA8 (talk) 11:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
![[REDACTED]](https://u3vuiephb.global.ssl.fastly.net/File:Misplaced Pages-logo-v2.svg){kind=link}
