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			== Criticism section ==
⚫	== Semi-protected edit request on 27 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ ==

			The '''criticism''' section is an editor-collated assemblage of various issues that are typical of discussion, debate, and the process of improvement in any rigorous academic discipline. As such, virtually the entire section is ]. If there's to be a separate criticism section, it would need to be sourced to RS that survey "criticims of economics", which is what the section purports to present.]] 13:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
⚫	{{~~Edit~~ semi-protected\|Economics\|answered=yes}}
			:I agree. Criticism of particular view-points of specific economists does not constitute a criticism of economics as such, and should not be included in a general criticism section, which should be reserved for more fundamental, and properly sourced, critique, if any.--] (]) 09:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
	Change "Economic analysis can be applied throughout society, including business, finance, health care, engineering and government."

			== Is it really a science if it has no predictive value? ==
	To

			Just wondering. ] (]) 06:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
	"Economic analysis can be applied throughout society, including business, finance, ]<ref>{{cite journal \|last1=Kianpour \|first1=Mazaher \|last2=Kowalski, \|first2=Stewart \|last3=Øverby \|first3=Harald \|date=2021 \|title=Systematically Understanding Cybersecurity Economics: A Survey \|url= https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/24/13677 \|journal= Sustainability\|volume= 13 \|doi= 10.3390/su132413677}}</ref>, health care, engineering, and government. " ] (]) 13:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
	:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 13:33, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

			:Most science is inherently inductive, it's ] for some. ]] 06:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
	{{reflist-talk}}
			:Critics of economics seem to be confused about what "science" is and just how much of it is really "predictive." Economics is a social science. ] (]) 15:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

			== Seems like this is unclear ==

			Contemporary economics uses mathematics. Economists draw on the tools of calculus, linear algebra, statistics, game theory, and computer science. Professional economists are expected to be familiar with these tools, while a minority specialize in econometrics and mathematical methods. ] (]) 06:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

			:What is unclear about it? ]] 06:14, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
	== India Education Program course assignment ==
	] This article was the subject of an educational assignment at Symbiosis School of Economics supported by ] through the ] during the 2011 Q3 term. Further details are available ].] ]

		⚫	== Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2024 ==
	{{small\|The above message was substituted from {{tlc\|IEP assignment}} by ] (]) on 20:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)}}

		⚫	{{edit semi-protected\|Economics\|answered=yes}}
	== Stating by whom has the S/D model been made in the introduction ==
			In the "History of economic thought" subsection, remove Qin Shi Huang from "Other notable writers from Antiquity through to the Renaissance which wrote on include Aristotle, Chanakya (also known as Kautilya), Qin Shi Huang, Ibn Khaldun, and Thomas Aquinas." To my knowledge, the emperor wrote no known treatises on anything remotely resembling economic theory. ] (]) 20:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
			:In fact the entire sentence "{{tq\|Other notable writers from ] through to the ] which}}{{sic}} {{tq\|wrote on}} {{tq\|include ], ] (also known as Kautilya), ], ], and ] }}" is dubious since it is not supported by any evidence and consequently I have deleted it. Of course if anybody can provide a citation or citations for one or more of these, then of course reinstate it to that extent. --] (]) 21:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

			== Is criticism necessary? ==
	I'd like to suggest to modify the sentence "The supply and demand model describes how..." to "The supply and demand model by Alfred Marshall describes how..." for describing the supply and demande curves in the introduction of the wiki page. ] (]) 23:23, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

			I think a serious case could be made that the criticism section violates the rules of the encyclopedia. The fact is, economics is recognized as a legitimate field of inquiry and a social science by major academic institutions, and almost all of these critiques are coming from outside the field. Would we have a criticism section in an article about "history" or "sociology"? There isn't any on either page.
	== European economics ==

			I shouldn't have to say this, but you could find criticism of just about any subject if you look for it. The rules are clear that sourcing should always be mainstream and criticism is only warranted in special circumstances. An example of a subject that has a valid criticism section is the ] article -note that the critiques are sourced to experts with backgrounds in either biology or psychology, not philosophers or scholars with no relevant background like we find in this article. I think the section should be removed. ] (]) 06:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
	The page does not inform about Asian economics: China, India. ] (]) 06:36, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

			:The qualm is where we draw the line between reliable sources that are about the topic and those that aren't. I don't think the line is as firm as you describe. Maybe it can be presented differently, but I don't think it's reasonable to say that only economists get to be considered reliable sources for commentary on the field of economics. Perhaps the article should be weighted differently, but the logical conclusion of your argument is much more of an NPOV issue than the article as it stands IMO. ]] 06:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
	== Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2023 ==
			::The criticism section has, justifiedly, been criticized in earlier discussions, too, cf. ]. The parts of the section that consists of criticism of particular viewpoints of specific economists should not be listed in a general criticism section. As suggested before, if a separate criticism section should be upheld at all (according to ], such separate sections are generally to be avoided because they introduce issues of undue weight), a minimum requirement would appear to be that it would be sourced to reliable sources that explicitly survey "criticims of economics". ] (]) 18:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
			::If this were a subject like genealogy you'd have a point, but economics? The line is very clear: people who are recognized as economists and who publish research in mainstream, refereed economics journals are RS. An activist working for a think tank, a philosopher, a politician or journalist with no obvious credentials in the field are not RS. So, there's the line. ] (]) 21:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
			Time to remove it. Any valid bits belong elsewhere.]] 23:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

			== Intuitive writing ==
	{{Edit semi-protected\|Economics\|answered=yes}}
	"Other wschools or trends of thought referring " should read "Other schools or trends of thought referring" ] (]) 03:54, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
	:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> —](]) 04:42, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

			Hi, I think the lead can be written a bit more intuitively, or at the very least have the intuitive writing first, and page links with technical language in brackets.
	== Suggestions for "History of economic thought" ==

			I think there also needs to be paragraph summarising the history section, which summarises ancient study, classical, a separation into Marxian, then back to Keynesian, monetarist, and list the main modern day innovations/fringes like humanistic (the page for it needs to be edited to add the alternative humanistic proposals to homo economicus) and others. ] (]) 15:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
	The main purpose of that section should be to present the history of economic thought from a mainstream view, mentioning the more heterodox directions collectively at a less detailed level, preferably in the subsection "Other schools and approaches" as is the case currently for some of these. However, three heterodox schools are given prominent treatment in the main text: Marxian, post-Keynesian and Austrian thought. This would conflict with ]. I propose that mention of the three schools be shortened and moved to the subsection of other schools.
	Secondly, the current subsection on the Chicago School should be replaced by two new ones, on monetarism and new classical economics, respectively. Though it is true that the protagonists from both schools are sometimes mentioned as Chicago School economists, the two schools are clearly distinct and played independent and important roles in the development of theory - a fact which the current text does not reflect properly. ] (]) 18:35, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

			:I dont think the fringes deserve mention in the lead tbh ] (]) 02:38, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	:While this section could use some editing, your changes are too extreme. Marxian economics is a part of the history of economics whether you like it or not. Also, Marxian economics followed in the tradition of classical economics and the labor theory of value - neoclassical economics is a break from Marxian (and to some extent classical) economics and its rise makes no sense if you erase Marx's writings, the massive socialist movement from the 19th to late 20th century etc. from existence.
			::Yeah good point, but the body could include some more ] (]) 09:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	:Probably what can use the most cleanup is the post-Keynesian section. Your edits seem fine, the main problem is there are too many headers - economists flirtation with rational expectations is not as significant as neoclassical or classical economics. What you wrote is fine but they don't each deserve a new section. I am putting the Marxian section back and changing the three post-Keynesian sections into one. ] (]) 18:16, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
			:I think the use of mathematics and models intended to capture reality and relationships between phenomenon needs to be mentioned ] (]) 10:33, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
			:@] I just thought the quote provided a less technical definition that will be intuitive to a lot of readers. I also think "with emphasis on autonomous ]" should be in the lede because that isn't made clear since there isn't a separation between agents and elements. I also think there should be a paragraph summarising the history/progression of economics, and ] should be mentioned at the end because there's a lot of controversy around it within academia and we might be violating ] ] (]) 20:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:33, 21 December 2024

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Criticism section

The criticism section is an editor-collated assemblage of various issues that are typical of discussion, debate, and the process of improvement in any rigorous academic discipline. As such, virtually the entire section is WP:OR. If there's to be a separate criticism section, it would need to be sourced to RS that survey "criticims of economics", which is what the section purports to present. SPECIFICO talk 13:19, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Criticism of particular view-points of specific economists does not constitute a criticism of economics as such, and should not be included in a general criticism section, which should be reserved for more fundamental, and properly sourced, critique, if any.--Økonom (talk) 09:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Is it really a science if it has no predictive value?

Just wondering. 2604:3D09:D78:1000:F6F4:8026:BB0B:458D (talk) 06:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Most science is inherently inductive, it's a real problem for some. Remsense诉 06:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Critics of economics seem to be confused about what "science" is and just how much of it is really "predictive." Economics is a social science. Jonathan f1 (talk) 15:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Seems like this is unclear

Contemporary economics uses mathematics. Economists draw on the tools of calculus, linear algebra, statistics, game theory, and computer science. Professional economists are expected to be familiar with these tools, while a minority specialize in econometrics and mathematical methods. 2604:3D09:D78:1000:F6F4:8026:BB0B:458D (talk) 06:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

What is unclear about it? Remsense诉 06:14, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the "History of economic thought" subsection, remove Qin Shi Huang from "Other notable writers from Antiquity through to the Renaissance which wrote on include Aristotle, Chanakya (also known as Kautilya), Qin Shi Huang, Ibn Khaldun, and Thomas Aquinas." To my knowledge, the emperor wrote no known treatises on anything remotely resembling economic theory. Theoskhthonios (talk) 20:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

In fact the entire sentence "Other notable writers from Antiquity through to the Renaissance which wrote on include Aristotle, Chanakya (also known as Kautilya), Qin Shi Huang, Ibn Khaldun, and Thomas Aquinas" is dubious since it is not supported by any evidence and consequently I have deleted it. Of course if anybody can provide a citation or citations for one or more of these, then of course reinstate it to that extent. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Is criticism necessary?

I think a serious case could be made that the criticism section violates the rules of the encyclopedia. The fact is, economics is recognized as a legitimate field of inquiry and a social science by major academic institutions, and almost all of these critiques are coming from outside the field. Would we have a criticism section in an article about "history" or "sociology"? There isn't any on either page.

I shouldn't have to say this, but you could find criticism of just about any subject if you look for it. The rules are clear that sourcing should always be mainstream and criticism is only warranted in special circumstances. An example of a subject that has a valid criticism section is the Evolutionary psychology article -note that the critiques are sourced to experts with backgrounds in either biology or psychology, not philosophers or scholars with no relevant background like we find in this article. I think the section should be removed. Jonathan f1 (talk) 06:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

The qualm is where we draw the line between reliable sources that are about the topic and those that aren't. I don't think the line is as firm as you describe. Maybe it can be presented differently, but I don't think it's reasonable to say that only economists get to be considered reliable sources for commentary on the field of economics. Perhaps the article should be weighted differently, but the logical conclusion of your argument is much more of an NPOV issue than the article as it stands IMO. Remsense诉 06:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

The criticism section has, justifiedly, been criticized in earlier discussions, too, cf. Talk:Economics#Criticism_section. The parts of the section that consists of criticism of particular viewpoints of specific economists should not be listed in a general criticism section. As suggested before, if a separate criticism section should be upheld at all (according to Misplaced Pages:Criticism, such separate sections are generally to be avoided because they introduce issues of undue weight), a minimum requirement would appear to be that it would be sourced to reliable sources that explicitly survey "criticims of economics". Økonom (talk) 18:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If this were a subject like genealogy you'd have a point, but economics? The line is very clear: people who are recognized as economists and who publish research in mainstream, refereed economics journals are RS. An activist working for a think tank, a philosopher, a politician or journalist with no obvious credentials in the field are not RS. So, there's the line. Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Time to remove it. Any valid bits belong elsewhere. SPECIFICO talk 23:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Intuitive writing

Hi, I think the lead can be written a bit more intuitively, or at the very least have the intuitive writing first, and page links with technical language in brackets.

I think there also needs to be paragraph summarising the history section, which summarises ancient study, classical, a separation into Marxian, then back to Keynesian, monetarist, and list the main modern day innovations/fringes like humanistic (the page for it needs to be edited to add the alternative humanistic proposals to homo economicus) and others. Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I dont think the fringes deserve mention in the lead tbh VineFynn (talk) 02:38, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah good point, but the body could include some more Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the use of mathematics and models intended to capture reality and relationships between phenomenon needs to be mentioned Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:33, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy I just thought the quote provided a less technical definition that will be intuitive to a lot of readers. I also think "with emphasis on autonomous market forces" should be in the lede because that isn't made clear since there isn't a separation between agents and elements. I also think there should be a paragraph summarising the history/progression of economics, and economics imperialism should be mentioned at the end because there's a lot of controversy around it within academia and we might be violating WP:NPOV Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

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