| Revision as of 19:15, 10 March 2020 editNicknack009 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers38,447 edits →Germanus and Catocus← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 13:55, 27 December 2024 edit undoUltraodan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers1,441 edits →Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2024 |
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| quote = As Adrianne LaFrance noted in the Atlantic, there is no self-evident unifying theory about why certain Misplaced Pages pages are higher quality than others. But with its combination of primary sources, motivated contributors, and shared vision, St. Patrick’s entry could be hinting at the magic formula. |
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| quote = As Adrianne LaFrance noted in the Atlantic, there is no self-evident unifying theory about why certain Misplaced Pages pages are higher quality than others. But with its combination of primary sources, motivated contributors, and shared vision, St. Patrick’s entry could be hinting at the magic formula. |
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{{WikiProject Christianity|class=B|importance=Top|catholicism=yes|catholicism-importance=Top|anglicanism=yes|anglicanism-importance=Mid|saints=yes|saints-importance=Top|eastern-orthodoxy=yes|eastern orthodoxy-importance=High}} |
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== Snakes == |
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== Lutheran saint? == |
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The text asserts that Patric is "venerated as a saint in the ... Lutheran church...". Lutheran churches do not recognize "saints" or venerate them, even though Lutheran church buildings may be named after disciples, evangelists or archangels venerated by Catholics as "saints". ] (]) 14:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC) |
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On the section of Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland, I think it we be relevant to talk of the similarities of this story with that of another Irish story on ].For instance if it was added: |
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== Quality of Content == |
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:::: Similarities in this story and another Irish myth are notable. The story of ], who is credited as the ] of the ] and creator of the ] (], ], ]),appears in the 11th century pseudo-historical book ] (The Book of the Taking of Ireland), <ref>MacKillop, James (2005) Myths and Legends of the Celts. London. Penguin Books {{ISBN|9780141017945}}. </ref><ref>Koch, John T. (2005). Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia Vol. 1 A-Celti. Oxford. ABC-Clio. {{ISBN|9781851094400}}</ref> In the story Goídel Glas is bitten by a snake and his life is saved by ] placing his staff on the snakebite. As a reminder of the incident he retains a green mark that would stay with him for the rest of his life. Additionally Moses tells him that no other of his people will be bitten by a snake and he would lead his people to a land that would be free of snakes. They eventually find Ireland after forty days wandering the sea<ref>Macalister, Robert Alexander Stewart. (1939) Lebor gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) Volume.2. Dublin. Irish Texts Society by the Educational Co. of Ireland. </ref> |
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This is a truly dreadful article, mostly obsessed with Catholic trivia about shamrocks, bells, and visions. Patrick was actually a most important person in establishing and propagating literacy - a fundamental tool for propagating religious philosophy. Catholicism, for example. By ignoring the literacy part of Patrick's existence, this article becomes an astonishing and execrable waste of time! Is nobody here aware of this other side of Patrick's life, not to mention being able to include some relevant history? ] (]) 01:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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If this was added after the line "Aaron's snake-staff prevails by consuming the other snakes" and before the next paragraph starting with the line "However, all evidence suggests that post-glacial Ireland never had snakes" i think this will give a more detail to people on the past authors of these stories fascination of merging Irish history and culture with that of the bible. |
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:We don't really know any of this. You seem to want to replace one style of hagiographical myth-making with another. ] (]) 15:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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{{Reflist-talk}} |
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::I'm again astonished that a would-be Patrick scholar would be so completely in the dark about Patrick's work as to suggest that it's simply more "hagiographical myth-making"! Here is just '''one''' example of an academic analysis of Patrick's substantial, even monumental, works from 807 A.D.: https://www.confessio.ie/manuscripts/dublin#1 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 00:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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What is certainly important is that the claim that the banishing of the snakes refers to the banishing of druids should be removed. There is no reliable source for this. The book referenced in the footnote to this (which should also be removed) is a highly eccentric, self-published book. It is not an academic source. I doubt a more reliable source can be found for this claim.] (]) 00:07, 18 March 2019 (UTC) |
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:::I'm well aware of the ''Confessio'', but I don't think Patrick actually mentions teaching reading, let alone writing, anywhere in it, though he may well have done some of that. ] (]) 02:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:I wholehearedly concur. There is a load of deliberate obfuscation here. What is the point of quoting an idiot from 130 years ago who was so arrogant as to assert that Patrick could not spell at all. You quote him as referring to "Bonaven Taburnia" when it is, of course, ''Bannavem Taburniae''. Yes... this does refer to the Roman Fort Banna on Hadrian's Wall (now usually called Birdoswald). |
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:The Bannaventa near Coventry is matched by another, now Banwen, in Wales and means "pig market". On the other hand Bannavem Taburniae means "The Boars' Inns" because when the legionaries left it became a hunting lodge complex. ] (]) 15:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Flechner references == |
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== Myth? == |
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So, is St. Patrick a myth? ] (]) 14:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC) |
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Once again, St Patrick's day comes and Roy Flechner's revisionist interpretations get front-loaded into the lede. I have moved them to their appropriate positions in the article - the lede is supposed to summarise the article. --] (]) 12:27, 20 March 2019 (UTC) |
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:Err..... no, but the Catholic Church did so mess with eg his dates (for their own political reasons) as to make their story as worthless as a myth. There was a real person born c420 at Gretna who died in 493. ] (]) 15:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== St. Patrick's Birthplace, Place of Burial and Shrines == |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2024 == |
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There is absolutely no definitive, provable birthplace or place of burial for Patrick. Surely it makes sense to use the term "possibly" along with suggestions of various, debated places of origin? E.g. "Possibly Roman Britain", "Possibly Roman France". On the subject of major shrines, surely major Irish shrines should be listed? (Croagh Patrick, for example?) Thanks. |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 22 May 2019 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Saint Patrick|answered=yes}} |
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Add a hyperlink to 'Ireland' in the patronage that leads to the Ireland Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 21:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Can you please check this: St. Patrick died about 460/461 as the article says but the date of his death given on the top says 385- 431. |
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Thank you. ] (]) 19:21, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:Thanks for spotting that! Those incorrect years had been recently added and had been overlooked. – ''''']''''' ] 20:39, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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== Germanus and Catocus == |
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In tracing the mission of Germanus of Auxerre to Britain in 429, I've come across 19thc. scholarship that refers to Cattug/Catocus/Catwg as a member of that mission along with Patrick, with a suggestion that Catocus also turned up in Ireland. I can't find the sources for these assertions, and am wondering if there's any substance to them. Shtove 00:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:What 19th century sources are you getting this from? It's very likely that Palladius was an associate of Germanus, as according to Prosper Germanus was sent to Britain by Celestine on the recommendation of a deacon called Palladius, and the same pope then appointed Palladius, presumably the same one, as the first bishop to the Irish. Perhaps your source thought Palladius and Patrick were the same person? --] (]) 11:44, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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::Thanks Here's one discussing Patrick in Germanus's mission - the lengthy '''note a''' at the foot of p.21: https://archive.org/details/councilsecclesia01hadduoft/page/21/mode/1up |
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::It does cover your suggestion of mistaking one for the other. I have somewhere another source that accepts the possible mistake at face value, but can't find it just now - and it's likely that source hasn't considered the possibility. |
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::Any inklings about Cattug/Catocus/Catwg in respect of that mission? Shtove 16:31, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Now I see where you're coming from. There is a tradition, found in Fiacc's Hymn and many of the medieval lives of Patrick, that after he escaped from slavery, he went to the continent and studied with Germanus and others. Victorian scholars tended to regard these medieval Irish texts as historical sources. Most modern scholars don't. The only authentic sources on Patrick are his Confession and Letter, which make no reference to Germanus. The later sources are all unreliable and unverifiable. In particular, the traditions associating him with Germanus, as your link points out, most likely derive from a confusion between Patrick and Palladius. |
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:::No idea about Catocus. The only person of that name I'm aware of is St. ], who is supposed to have lived the following century. --] (]) 19:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{not done}}:<!-- Template:ESp --> already linked under died and should not be relinked as per ] ] (]) 13:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC) |
The text asserts that Patric is "venerated as a saint in the ... Lutheran church...". Lutheran churches do not recognize "saints" or venerate them, even though Lutheran church buildings may be named after disciples, evangelists or archangels venerated by Catholics as "saints". Jarmo K. (talk) 14:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
This is a truly dreadful article, mostly obsessed with Catholic trivia about shamrocks, bells, and visions. Patrick was actually a most important person in establishing and propagating literacy - a fundamental tool for propagating religious philosophy. Catholicism, for example. By ignoring the literacy part of Patrick's existence, this article becomes an astonishing and execrable waste of time! Is nobody here aware of this other side of Patrick's life, not to mention being able to include some relevant history? Henrilebec (talk) 01:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done: already linked under died and should not be relinked as per MOS:REPEATLINK Ultraodan (talk) 13:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)