| Revision as of 05:01, 31 May 2023 editDimadick (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers808,214 edits →The Contradictions in Zimmerman's Story← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 23:07, 1 January 2025 edit undoHiLo48 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers91,429 edits →"Anti-Black Racism in Florida"? Really?: The fact we have an article has everything to do with it. |
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{{Talk header|search=yes|archive_age=30|archive_units=days|archive_bot=ClueBot III}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|blp=other|listas=Martin, Trayvon, Killing of|1= |
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{{WikiProject Black Lives Matter |class= C |importance= High }} |
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== Use of the term "murder" in the info box. == |
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== Curfew == |
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Originally reports stated at the time of the incident there was a curfew in place. Why is there no longer any mention of this curfew in any of the reports? ] (]) 00:56, 3 March 2022 (UTC) |
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Murder refers to unlawful killing. If the jury found Zimmerman not guilty by reason of self-defense, and he maintains the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, having not been found guilty, he is therefore innocent. This means that the killing was not unlawful and therefore not murder. ] (]) 05:43, 16 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:It should be "killing" because that is the article title |
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: ] (]) 09:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::It was just a simple passing of a young man. No need for such strong language ] (]) 01:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Change, "Zimmerman attacked Martin," to, "Zimmerman was attacked by Martin". == |
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Zimmerman was attacked by Martin and not the other way around. The evidence presented in the trial, and the conclusion of the jury who heard all the evidence, found that Zimmerman was not the aggressor and therefore was innocent of the crime of murder for which he was being tried. Saying otherwise defies the conclusion of the jury and is therefore inaccurate. |
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== incorrect text == |
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An excerpt from the hearing per [The George Zimmerman Trial: An Account (umkc.edu): |
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at the end of the article at "see also" there is a list of links. The link: |
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In Zimmerman's retelling of the ensuing struggle to Officer Doris Singleton later that night, Martin "grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk." Zimmerman managed to pull himself back to the grass and yell, "Help me, help me. He's killing me." Martin, on top of him, responded by covering Zimmerman's mouth with his hand and telling him, "You're going to die tonight." At that point, as he tried to slide away, "my jacket and my shirt came up...and I felt his hand go down on my side and I thought he was going for my firearm. So I grabbed it immediately and as he banged my head again, I just pulled my firearm and shot him." |
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Zimmerman's version of events is largely consistent with the statement of eyewitness Jonathan Good, a resident of one of the townhouses close to the site of the fight, and the observer closest to the confrontation and considered by police to be its most reliable eyewitness. |
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"Killing of Sara-Nicole Morales, 2021 Florida case where no charges were filed against a motorcyclist who fatally shot a pregnant woman on her front lawn after she deliberately struck his motorcycle with hercar, since she was waving a gun at him at the time." |
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] (]) 22:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC) |
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states that she was pregnant. That's obviously not true. See the wiki post: "Killing of Sara-Nicole Morales". There it says: Police also determined that the woman was not pregnant after an autopsy was performed. [3 |
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and adds the resource #3 |
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What somebody change this? ] (]) 16:04, 11 December 2022 (UTC) |
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==Wiki Education assignment: CMN2160A== |
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{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/University_of_Ottawa/CMN2160A_(Fall) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2022-09-08 | end_date = 2022-12-15 }} |
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<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by ] (]) 20:13, 13 December 2022 (UTC)</span> |
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: Agreed, I need to look in the history to see who wrote that. ] (]) 02:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2023 == |
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: Here is the in June. ] (]) 03:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::Was never proven, previous wording was not only more truthful, your new edit is blatantly biased by a conclusion you wish was reached. ] (]) 07:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Not to mention the sidewalk story is arguably the least credible account of the encounter. No one disputes this, this screams of political soap boxing. ] (]) 07:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== "a 260-unit, gated, townhome community" == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Killing of Trayvon Martin|answered=yes}} |
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To change the spelling mistake of "inured" instead of "injured". ] (]) 03:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">]</span> <sup>] </sup> 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC) |
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Grammar: please remove comma before "townhome". This is attributive use of a noun, so it should not 'stack commas' with the preceding adjectives. Similar example: one would write "a small toy car", not "a small, toy car". (There's no comma-like pause in speech either.) ] (]) 10:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== This Misplaced Pages story incorrectly describes the events under which an adult killed a child. == |
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== Spelling Issue == |
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This Misplaced Pages story incorrectly describes the events under which an adult killed a child. Zimmerman did not kill Martin is self defense. Under Florida law, Martin was allowed to stand his ground against an armed adult who was stalking him. Martin was killed while attempting to defend himself. Zimmerman did not shoot Martin in self defense. Martin was killed by an armed adult who instigated an assault on a child. That’s not self defense. ] (]) 05:27, 14 February 2023 (UTC) |
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:While you are entitled to your opinion, the jury that heard the case and acquitted Zimmerman found otherwise. All of the content in the article, including the discussion of various dissenting opinions about Zimmerman's state of mind and whether the acquittal was justified, is based on citations of ]. We are not permitted as editors of an encyclopedia to promote your opinion to fact simply because it is your opinion. <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">]</span> <sup>] </sup> 05:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC) |
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::Then it should be clear in the wording that a jury found Martin acted in self defense. Not that it is a fact that he fired in self defense. "A jury found Zimmerman shot Martin in self- defense" is way different than "Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense." Even if it was added that Zimmerman maintains he shot Martin in self defense it would be much more accurate. It also maintains that Zimmerman was injured in the physical altercation, but does not mention that Martin was shot and died during said altercation which should also be added to be more fair and unbias ] (]) 16:21, 5 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::What exactly do you find unclear about this wording? {{tquote|In a widely reported trial, Zimmerman was charged with murder of the second degree for Martin's death, but acquitted by the jury after claiming self-defense.}} From a legal perspective, the finding of the jury is a finding of fact. We will not retry the case in an encyclopedia. And yes, the article makes abundantly clear that Martin died during the altercation, beginning with the first sentence: {{tquote|On the evening of February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida, United States, George Zimmerman fatally shot Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old African-American teenager.}} <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">]</span> <sup>] </sup> 16:46, 5 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Cases like the murder of Emmett Till or the Scottsboro boys should make it clear that the finding of any Jury is not a finding of "Fact". Oftentimes the jury will make bias decisions, have important information hidden from them, be fed fake information, or choose to ignore the evidence presented to them just because. Many of these things happen entirely based on whether or not a jury, prosecution, defense, country, etc. like someone or not. |
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::::Martin, being a black child, was subject to all sorts of slander. Attacked and killed by someone who is both largely seen as white by his supporters and opponents, and has no problem associating with white nationalists to make money or gain internet fame. The Jury that acquitted Martin, like the one that acquitted Till's murderers, was entirely white. |
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::::The article's wording is fine but your justification for it ("The Jury's opinion is fact") is not fine, and anything considered using that justification should be discussed beforehand. ] (]) 22:18, 5 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::The jury at Z's trial was comprised of five white women and a Hispanic woman. No guilty verdict was returned so per ], which is policy, we continue to presume Z's innocence. ] (]) 02:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Thanks for showing that to me. I read through it all. |
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::::::We should only presume Zimmerman was found "Not Guilty" and faced no consequences for shooting Martin. Not his "Innocence". 1. The court of law does not rule "Innocent" and 2. We are smart enough to know the court of law is not infallable. |
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::::::The undeniable fact is that Zimmerman shot Martin, resulting in Martin's death. And that, for valid and historically obvious reasons (Assuming you are American), there is intense "Discussion" on whether or not the not guilty verdict was factually correct and justified. As said earlier, Till's murderers were acquitted, but I am still able to refer to them as "Murderers" IRL because of the undeniable fact they killed him, as well as on this website due to the the undeniable fact that they admitted to it, and later analysis that basically confirmed what black americans already knew back in the 50s. |
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::::::Like I said '''the wording is perfectly okay''' (Since it says "Zimmerman was ruled not guilty after *claiming* her defended himself" and not "Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense") but '''I do not agree with the justification''' ("The court of law + jury are omnipotent and everything they say is fact") |
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::::::Thus '''I don't plan on making any changes to the page unless the original phrasing is altered to imply Zimmerman's innocence as fact''', since plenty of internet users love to slander dead black people. I will also change it back if it tries to insist his legal guilt as fact, since he faced no legal consequences. We both can say he shot Martin and that many people found this to be extremely uncool. |
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::::::And considering the isue of Zimmerman's race, who's to say that one hispanic woman was not entirely of European descent? Thus white? Hispanic in this context is a culture and in my experience it is invoked by white and black people to try and hide the fact they are white or black. ] (]) 03:48, 6 May 2023 (UTC) |
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"She claimed that police pressured him into choosing the color that the man was wearing anf that her son could not see any details in the dark." |
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== The Contradictions in Zimmerman's Story == |
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And is misspelled in this sentence. I'm not able to edit otherwise I would. If someone could fix this I'd appreciate it, thank you! ] (]) 08:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:Fixed. Thanks for the alert. ] (]) 14:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== "Anti-Black Racism in Florida"? Really? == |
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A while back I wrote a paragraph about the contradictions in Zimmerman's description of the phone call with a police dispatcher in his recorded interview with police the day after he killed Martin. I used the video Entitled "The Killing Of Trayvon Martin" by left-leaning YouTube ] as the primary source, who referred to Zimmerman's claims as provable lies. In verifying that people had noticed this, I also included an article by left-leaning news organization Mother Jones who noted the inconsistency of Zimmerman claiming he fell at the first punch. My edit was removed from the page due to the fact I edited Bill Maher's page in reference to several accusations of Transphobia from 2017 to the present, and accused of POV-pushing. Only one thing that I said in the actual article was somewhat opinion based, but in my description of why I edited the page I see why it was removed. For the editors of their article, I would recommend watching Shaun's video so that the page could be properly edited by someone other than myself to include the contradictions, and if other sources considered less biased than him and Mother Jones could be cited, this would be very beneficial to highlighting context that went ignored otherwise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE84fH_Pc9c |
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There's no evidence Zimmerman had racist intentions when he shot Trayvon, somebody should remove this category from the article. ] (]) 17:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Above is the video. ] (]) 00:10, 31 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:There may be no such evidence, but there is Anti-Black Racism in Florida, and that's why this was such a notable case. ] (]) 02:14, 28 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:] is not a reliable source, and OR is not allowed. No objection if you can source your changes to ], since it is listed as a reliable source in ]: |
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::it doesn't matter, the fact that there is anti-black racism in florida does not mean that Trayvon's death was racially motivated, heck, you even adimited that there is no evidence Zimmerman killed Trayvon with racist intentions, so, do me a favor and remove this category from the article and quit doing quitly by association fallacies. ] (]) 14:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC) |
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**"There is consensus that Mother Jones is generally reliable. Almost all editors consider Mother Jones a biased source, so its statements (particularly on political topics) may need to be attributed. Consider whether content from this publication constitutes due weight before citing it in an article." ] (]) 05:01, 31 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I did not say or even imply that Zimmerman was guilty. My point is that this story became globally significant because there is Anti-Black Racism in Florida. Including the category makes a lot of sense. ] (]) 01:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::no it doesn't, it does not matter that this "story became goblally significant because there is anti-black racism in florida" unless Trayvon was killed with racist intentions like the men who killed ahmaud arbery, there's no reason to add this here, again, guilty by association this is also not NPOV ] (]) 02:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Please read my comments more carefully. Adding that category is not about anyone's guilt. ] (]) 02:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::please. Read my comments again. There's no point in adding It since This case had nothing to do with It. ] (]) 20:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::The fact we have an article has everything to do with it. ] (]) 23:07, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
Murder refers to unlawful killing. If the jury found Zimmerman not guilty by reason of self-defense, and he maintains the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, having not been found guilty, he is therefore innocent. This means that the killing was not unlawful and therefore not murder. 2600:6C5A:F0:8600:6C08:F40A:DAD1:26A (talk) 05:43, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Zimmerman was attacked by Martin and not the other way around. The evidence presented in the trial, and the conclusion of the jury who heard all the evidence, found that Zimmerman was not the aggressor and therefore was innocent of the crime of murder for which he was being tried. Saying otherwise defies the conclusion of the jury and is therefore inaccurate.
An excerpt from the hearing per [The George Zimmerman Trial: An Account (umkc.edu):
Grammar: please remove comma before "townhome". This is attributive use of a noun, so it should not 'stack commas' with the preceding adjectives. Similar example: one would write "a small toy car", not "a small, toy car". (There's no comma-like pause in speech either.) 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:2928:F190:B2C:C333 (talk) 10:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
"She claimed that police pressured him into choosing the color that the man was wearing anf that her son could not see any details in the dark."
And is misspelled in this sentence. I'm not able to edit otherwise I would. If someone could fix this I'd appreciate it, thank you! Oranguru765 (talk) 08:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
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