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Revision as of 09:11, 20 March 2012 edit184.56.186.73 (talk) →Requested move← Previous edit Latest revision as of 23:07, 1 January 2025 edit undoHiLo48 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers91,429 edits →"Anti-Black Racism in Florida"? Really?: The fact we have an article has everything to do with it. 
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== Use of the term "murder" in the info box. ==
== statutes ==
I have added several of the relevant self defense statutes from florida. I have filtered the list to setions which I personally believe are relevant, and could be plausivly used by the state to decline prosecution, or used by the defense, or place limits on the defense. If someone thinks a particular statute or sub-statute is also relevant, I would not object.


Murder refers to unlawful killing. If the jury found Zimmerman not guilty by reason of self-defense, and he maintains the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, having not been found guilty, he is therefore innocent. This means that the killing was not unlawful and therefore not murder. ] (]) 05:43, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
I am also considering '''bolding''' parts that I think are particularly relevant, but that may cause possible POV, so I will take that under advisement. ] (]) 14:03, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
:Interesting idea, but I removed it per ]. This is an encyclopedia article about an event, not a forum for speculating about any possible outcomes of a court case. Maybe adding an internal link to ] would provide a reader with a link to similar information without the neutrality issues? As for the bolding; sort of moot since the section is gone but I have never seen that done in an article before. Remember this is in main space; adding a bunch of intermittent bold phrases really killed readability. ] (]) 15:16, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


:It should be "killing" because that is the article title
==911 calls==
: ] (]) 09:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
I am not very familiar with using wikipedia, but I would like to bring up that the city of Sanford has released 911 recordings from the shooter as well as a few residents. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::It was just a simple passing of a young man. No need for such strong language ] (]) 01:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for the heads up, I added a link to the article. ] (]) 05:23, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Not quite the link I was thinking of, but I gave it a go and added a mention of the City of Sanford's official release of the 911 recordings and added a link. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:21, 17 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Yes, we should have a link to the city as well. I moved the reference to earlier in the paragraph, since the two sentences basically were duplicates. ] (]) 19:25, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
I am not familiar with using Misplaced Pages as well, but aren't the claims that Zimmerman tried to apprehend Martin and that 2 shots were fired '''completely false'''? According to the witnesses in the recorded calls there is only 1 shot (listen to the call in the cited article - only 1 shot and the witness says 1 shot). Also, the article which is cited for Zimmerman apprehending Martin makes no mention of the fact. There is no evidence on how the confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman happened, but Zimmerman certainly has a history of pursuing suspects. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:53, 18 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== Change, "Zimmerman attacked Martin," to, "Zimmerman was attacked by Martin". ==
In another call, Zimmerman claims to be pursuing Martin. ] (]) 20:06, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
:Also, in that same call, Zimmerman does mention, twice, that Martin was running <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


Zimmerman was attacked by Martin and not the other way around. The evidence presented in the trial, and the conclusion of the jury who heard all the evidence, found that Zimmerman was not the aggressor and therefore was innocent of the crime of murder for which he was being tried. Saying otherwise defies the conclusion of the jury and is therefore inaccurate.
== Relevance ==


An excerpt from the hearing per [The George Zimmerman Trial: An Account (umkc.edu):
Exactly how relevant and needed is the newly added "Background to Racial Tension in Area"-section? Feels like this is steering the article in a certain (non-neutral) direction. ] (]) 22:07, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
{{Talk quote block|
:The observation this this is not a totally isolated incident is made by one of the sources (the Huffington Post article). That does not necessarily mean it should be included in this article, but it does show that the connection is not pure ]. ] (]) 23:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
In Zimmerman's retelling of the ensuing struggle to Officer Doris Singleton later that night, Martin "grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk." Zimmerman managed to pull himself back to the grass and yell, "Help me, help me. He's killing me." Martin, on top of him, responded by covering Zimmerman's mouth with his hand and telling him, "You're going to die tonight." At that point, as he tried to slide away, "my jacket and my shirt came up...and I felt his hand go down on my side and I thought he was going for my firearm. So I grabbed it immediately and as he banged my head again, I just pulled my firearm and shot him."
::The information in that section (which I wrote) is included in many of the articles describing the incident, and is relevant to explaining the degree of the controversy surrounding the death. I think there should also be mention of the recently passed "Stand your ground" legislation, too, as that is necessary to explain the police's situation and the level of evidence they would need to charge him. If you compare this article to another in which someone shot others and alleged self-defense, such as the ] shooting, you can see that there, too, background leading up to the situation is included, such as the crime rate prior to the shooting. ] (]) 23:53, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
:It seems the Sanford Florida Police Department has (as they say) a 'troubled' history. I suppose the thing to do is to develop a page on them. The department has a good web site . It is a large department as so seems notable. ] (]) 01:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
:::New page, ], please take a look.] (]) 06:54, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


Zimmerman's version of events is largely consistent with the statement of eyewitness Jonathan Good, a resident of one of the townhouses close to the site of the fight, and the observer closest to the confrontation and considered by police to be its most reliable eyewitness.
== Can an attacker claim self defense in Florida? ==
}}
George Zimmerman attacked Trayvon Martin and when Trayvon Martin fought back George Zimmerman is allowed to claim self defense after he kills him.] (]) 03:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
] (]) 22:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
:So now a concerned member of the neighborhood watch becomes an attacker? Whatever happened to the policy of ]? ] (]) 05:20, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
::Yes, that is what happened but it keeps getting taken out. In the 911 calls Zimmerman was told not follow Martin but he did anyway. Zimmerman followed the boy and created the confrontation. Since Zimmerman was the initial aggressor his claim of self-defense will not hold up, but the case hasn't gotten that far yet so it is only speculation at this point.
::What isn't speculation is the fact Zimmerman has a history of repeatedly calling 911 and the recordings for this case have him saying things like, " always get away." Describing this man as a "concerned member of the neighborhood watch" is quite a stretch. ] (]) 07:08, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
:::There are sources to the contrary. Zimmerman had no criminal record, a clean slate, an education, and he had never been in any incidents before. Also worth mentioning: he's Hispanic (and yes, there are sources for that). ] (]) 14:18, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
::::Actually, he did not have a clean slate--he told police at at the scene that he had never been arrested, but it turned out he was lying. He had an arrest record for battery on a law enforcement officer in 2005. Not sure what relevance his being Hispanic has. ] (]) 17:02, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
From a legal standpoint, florida actually has a specific exemption to the self defense statute that does not allow that defense for the initiator of an attack, so this is very relevant to the case, but I don't think we can include it until some RS starts talking about it. In an earlier edit of mine on the main article, I included all the statutes but they were subsequently removed, bu tyou can look back at that revision if you want to see the applicable text. ] (]) 14:26, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

== Potential racial motivation in the lead: more general summary? ==

While a lot of the public backlash is about perceived racial elements underpinning the shooting itself and the subsequent investigation by the Sanford police, it would seem that the facts can be, and ought to be, kept distinct from the motivation. My proposal would be to change the lead paragraph to something a little more narrative (though with proper attribution and facts, which I am omitting for sake of brevity in my point), along the lines of:

''On February 26, 2012, Trayvon Martin, a teenager from (hometown), was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a member of the local neighborhood watch, while visiting family in Sanford, Florida. Members of Martin's family have alleged the incident was racially motivated, while Zimmerman has asserted that he shot Martin in self defense.''

There might be a more neutral way to write it, but I think that by bifurcating the issue into the act and the response will help prevent the article itself from moving forward with the presupposition that racial motivations are the primary causal agent in this story. I think this will also help with organizing the entry moving forward as the story develops (e.g., actions taken by the family, statements issued by Zimmerman and his supporters, any outside activity by law enforcement or public figures that might be deemed newsworthy). <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:38, 19 March 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::'''support''' a good compromise. ] (]) 16:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
::::Sounds good.] (]) 17:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
:::::I sensed a POV myself, as such I rewrote the lead. <b style="font-family:sans-serif;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #9eceee;color:#fd0;">]] | <sup>]</sup></b> 04:41, 20 March 2012 (UTC)


: Agreed, I need to look in the history to see who wrote that. ] (]) 02:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
== Zimmerman's race ==
: Here is the in June. ] (]) 03:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
::Was never proven, previous wording was not only more truthful, your new edit is blatantly biased by a conclusion you wish was reached. ] (]) 07:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
:Not to mention the sidewalk story is arguably the least credible account of the encounter. No one disputes this, this screams of political soap boxing. ] (]) 07:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC)


== "a 260-unit, gated, townhome community" ==
Is his race really relevant? <b style="font-family:sans-serif;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #9eceee;color:#fd0;">]] | <sup>]</sup></b> 05:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
:I wondered about the term 'hispanic' used in the article. While George Zimmerman is technically Hispanic, I'm not sure it really matters in this article and the term hispanic is used very, very awkwardly. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:13, 20 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Because there are racial issues concerning the crime, everyone's race involved has the potential to be relevant, even if further examination shows it to not be relevant. So it's worthwhile mentioning it. however, it is shoehorned in there ungrammatically. So I fixed the grammar.] (]) 08:36, 20 March 2012 (UTC)


Grammar: please remove comma before "townhome". This is attributive use of a noun, so it should not 'stack commas' with the preceding adjectives. Similar example: one would write "a small toy car", not "a small, toy car". (There's no comma-like pause in speech either.) ] (]) 10:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
== Requested move ==


== Spelling Issue ==
{{requested move/dated|Trayvon Martin}}


"She claimed that police pressured him into choosing the color that the man was wearing anf that her son could not see any details in the dark."
] → {{no redirect|1=Trayvon Martin}} – This article was recently boldly moved to ]. I undid this move, but would like to see a broader consensus established either way. This is a procedural nomination to encourage the discussion. ] (]) 07:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
And is misspelled in this sentence. I'm not able to edit otherwise I would. If someone could fix this I'd appreciate it, thank you! ] (]) 08:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose move''' - This is an article about a notable event, not a biography about the victim of a shooting. ] suggests naming an article with "what" and "where," but the "where" is this case does not seem applicable to any article title that would be uncumbersome. ] (]) 07:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
:Fixed. Thanks for the alert. ] (]) 14:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
::I was going to oppose the move as well because I thought Shooting of Trayvon Martin was consistent with naming conventions of people famous for one incident. But then I did a bit of looking on WP and saw that it's rather haphazard. ], significant only for her murder, gets an entry with just a name. Amadou Diallo gets ]. ] gets his name entry; ]] vs. ]. ] vs. ]. ] and ] are name only.] (]) 08:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
:::I don't see the point of such a move, if someone wants to make a[REDACTED] article about Trayvon Martin, the let them do so. Otherwise, I believe this is an event that impacts more than just Trayvon Martin and should be its own article. (Just like the Super Bowl events are its own articles separate from the articles of the individual teams playing in it)


== "Anti-Black Racism in Florida"? Really? ==
== Questions about the details of the crime ==


There's no evidence Zimmerman had racist intentions when he shot Trayvon, somebody should remove this category from the article. ] (]) 17:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Was there any details on the location of Zimmerman's vehicle and the location of the struggle and shooting? Is it common procedure not to divulge that during an investigation or is it like the 911 tapes where it should be released but is being withheld for some reason? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:19, 20 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:There may be no such evidence, but there is Anti-Black Racism in Florida, and that's why this was such a notable case. ] (]) 02:14, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
::it doesn't matter, the fact that there is anti-black racism in florida does not mean that Trayvon's death was racially motivated, heck, you even adimited that there is no evidence Zimmerman killed Trayvon with racist intentions, so, do me a favor and remove this category from the article and quit doing quitly by association fallacies. ] (]) 14:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I did not say or even imply that Zimmerman was guilty. My point is that this story became globally significant because there is Anti-Black Racism in Florida. Including the category makes a lot of sense. ] (]) 01:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
::::no it doesn't, it does not matter that this "story became goblally significant because there is anti-black racism in florida" unless Trayvon was killed with racist intentions like the men who killed ahmaud arbery, there's no reason to add this here, again, guilty by association this is also not NPOV ] (]) 02:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Please read my comments more carefully. Adding that category is not about anyone's guilt. ] (]) 02:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::please. Read my comments again. There's no point in adding It since This case had nothing to do with It. ] (]) 20:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::The fact we have an article has everything to do with it. ] (]) 23:07, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

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Use of the term "murder" in the info box.

Murder refers to unlawful killing. If the jury found Zimmerman not guilty by reason of self-defense, and he maintains the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, having not been found guilty, he is therefore innocent. This means that the killing was not unlawful and therefore not murder. 2600:6C5A:F0:8600:6C08:F40A:DAD1:26A (talk) 05:43, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

It should be "killing" because that is the article title
Ben Azura (talk) 09:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
It was just a simple passing of a young man. No need for such strong language 2601:183:4981:7E80:1430:B54B:90B9:A4EA (talk) 01:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Change, "Zimmerman attacked Martin," to, "Zimmerman was attacked by Martin".

Zimmerman was attacked by Martin and not the other way around. The evidence presented in the trial, and the conclusion of the jury who heard all the evidence, found that Zimmerman was not the aggressor and therefore was innocent of the crime of murder for which he was being tried. Saying otherwise defies the conclusion of the jury and is therefore inaccurate.

An excerpt from the hearing per [The George Zimmerman Trial: An Account (umkc.edu):

In Zimmerman's retelling of the ensuing struggle to Officer Doris Singleton later that night, Martin "grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk." Zimmerman managed to pull himself back to the grass and yell, "Help me, help me. He's killing me." Martin, on top of him, responded by covering Zimmerman's mouth with his hand and telling him, "You're going to die tonight." At that point, as he tried to slide away, "my jacket and my shirt came up...and I felt his hand go down on my side and I thought he was going for my firearm. So I grabbed it immediately and as he banged my head again, I just pulled my firearm and shot him."

Zimmerman's version of events is largely consistent with the statement of eyewitness Jonathan Good, a resident of one of the townhouses close to the site of the fight, and the observer closest to the confrontation and considered by police to be its most reliable eyewitness.

Lmchristy (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I need to look in the history to see who wrote that. Pmsyyz (talk) 02:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Here is the uncommented edit in June. Pmsyyz (talk) 03:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Was never proven, previous wording was not only more truthful, your new edit is blatantly biased by a conclusion you wish was reached. 216.134.234.140 (talk) 07:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Not to mention the sidewalk story is arguably the least credible account of the encounter. No one disputes this, this screams of political soap boxing. 216.134.234.140 (talk) 07:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

"a 260-unit, gated, townhome community"

Grammar: please remove comma before "townhome". This is attributive use of a noun, so it should not 'stack commas' with the preceding adjectives. Similar example: one would write "a small toy car", not "a small, toy car". (There's no comma-like pause in speech either.) 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:2928:F190:B2C:C333 (talk) 10:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Spelling Issue

"She claimed that police pressured him into choosing the color that the man was wearing anf that her son could not see any details in the dark." And is misspelled in this sentence. I'm not able to edit otherwise I would. If someone could fix this I'd appreciate it, thank you! Oranguru765 (talk) 08:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for the alert. HiLo48 (talk) 14:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

"Anti-Black Racism in Florida"? Really?

There's no evidence Zimmerman had racist intentions when he shot Trayvon, somebody should remove this category from the article. 177.37.150.39 (talk) 17:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

There may be no such evidence, but there is Anti-Black Racism in Florida, and that's why this was such a notable case. HiLo48 (talk) 02:14, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
it doesn't matter, the fact that there is anti-black racism in florida does not mean that Trayvon's death was racially motivated, heck, you even adimited that there is no evidence Zimmerman killed Trayvon with racist intentions, so, do me a favor and remove this category from the article and quit doing quitly by association fallacies. 177.37.150.26 (talk) 14:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
I did not say or even imply that Zimmerman was guilty. My point is that this story became globally significant because there is Anti-Black Racism in Florida. Including the category makes a lot of sense. HiLo48 (talk) 01:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
no it doesn't, it does not matter that this "story became goblally significant because there is anti-black racism in florida" unless Trayvon was killed with racist intentions like the men who killed ahmaud arbery, there's no reason to add this here, again, guilty by association this is also not NPOV 177.37.150.26 (talk) 02:18, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Please read my comments more carefully. Adding that category is not about anyone's guilt. HiLo48 (talk) 02:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
please. Read my comments again. There's no point in adding It since This case had nothing to do with It. 2804:29B8:509E:B6F9:C4E8:F275:3529:97AD (talk) 20:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The fact we have an article has everything to do with it. HiLo48 (talk) 23:07, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
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