Misplaced Pages

Talk:Death of Jeremiah Duggan: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 00:10, 5 November 2009 editJayen466 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Mass message senders, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers56,646 edits →Statements by Sebastian Drochon: :)← Previous edit Latest revision as of 18:39, 4 January 2025 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots8,065,573 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 5 WikiProject templates. (Fix Category:Pages using WikiProject banner shell with unknown parameters)Tag: Talk banner shell conversion 
(82 intermediate revisions by 22 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header}}
{{Article history| action1 = AFD
| action1date = 20 March 2006
| action1link = Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jeremiah Duggan
| action1result = speedy keep
| action1oldid = 44687760

| action2 = AFD
| action2date = 6 October 2009
| action2link = Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jeremiah Duggan (2nd nomination)
| action2result = keep
| action2oldid = 319852839

| action3 = PR
| action3date = 10:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
| action3link = Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Death of Jeremiah Duggan/archive1
| action3result = reviewed
| action3oldid = 349198340

| currentstatus =
}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|listas=Duggan, Jeremiah|blp=no|1=
{{WikiProject Biography}}
{{WikiProject United Kingdom}}
{{WikiProject Germany|importance=low}}
{{WikiProject Law|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Death|importance=low}}
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config {{User:MiszaBot/config
|maxarchivesize = 250K |maxarchivesize = 250K
Line 6: Line 34:
|archive = Talk:Death of Jeremiah Duggan/Archive %(counter)d |archive = Talk:Death of Jeremiah Duggan/Archive %(counter)d
}} }}
{{talkheader}}
{{oldafdfull|page=Jeremiah Duggan|date=20 March 2006|result='''keep'''}}
{{oldafdfull|page=Jeremiah Duggan (2nd nomination)|date=6 October 2009|result='''keep'''}}


{{WikiProjectBanners|blp=no|1=
{{WPBiography|living=no|class=B|priority=|listas=Duggan, Jeremiah}}
{{WikiProject Law|class=B|importance=Low}}
}}
{{Notable Citation|Baroness Sarah Ludford, Member of the European Parliament: "MEP urges investigation of Jeremiah Duggan's death"}} {{Notable Citation|Baroness Sarah Ludford, Member of the European Parliament: "MEP urges investigation of Jeremiah Duggan's death"}}
{{LaRouche Talk}} {{LaRouche Talk}}

__TOC__ __TOC__
==Main sources==
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article tools|1=Death of Jeremiah Duggan}}
In the order they appeared:
{{refbegin}}
*Kirby, Terry (2003). , ''The Independent'', 28 August 2003.
*Midgley, Carol (2003). , ''The Times'', 7 November 2003.
*Samuels, Tim (2004). , BBC ''Newsnight'', 12 February 2004.
*Smith, David James (2004). , ''The Sunday Times'', 18 July 2004.
*Kirby, Terry (2004). , ''The Independent'', 21 July 2004.
*Witt, April (2004). , ''The Washington Post'', 24 October 2004.
*Townsend, Mark (2004). , ''The Observer'', 31 October 2004.
*Townsend, Mark (2006). , ''The Guardian'', 17 September 2006.
*Townsend, Mark and Doward, Jamie (2007). , ''The Observer'', 25 March 2007.
*Nugent, Helen (2007). , ''The Times'', 28 March 2007.
*Nordhausen, Frank (2007). , ''Berliner Zeitung'', 4 April 2007.
*Degen, Wolfgang (2007). , ''Wiesbadener Kurier'', 19 April 2007.
*Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitutional Court of Germany) (2010). , 4 February 2010; .
*Taylor, Jerome (2010). ''The Independent'', 27 February 2010.
*BBC News (2010). , 20 May 2010.
*Taylor, Jerome (2010). , ''The Independent'', 21 May 2010
*Wardrop, Murray (2010). , ''The Daily Telegraph'', 21 May 2010.
{{refend}}
] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small>


== Jewish == == External links modified ==

Chip, I'm wondering about this edit. His family has always stressed this, because they feel he was targeted as a result of it, at least in part. The article does make clear further down that he's Jewish, where it says he stood up during the conference and declared it, but I felt we should make it clear earlier on, given its alleged relevance. <font color="Brown">]</font> <small><sup><font color="darkgreen">]</font><font color="Light green">]</font></sup></small> 19:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

::Jermiah was raised Jewish, but it is not equivalent to say that the father is from a country and the mother is from a religion/ethnic group.

::It is like saying someone's father is Austrian and his mother is Catholic. It is a big no no--] (]) 22:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

:::You're right that it could be phrased differently, but I still think it would be better to have his ethnicity in the early life section, given its relevance. I'm willing to leave it out if you really think that's best, but my preference is to have it in. <font color="Brown">]</font> <small><sup><font color="darkgreen">]</font><font color="Light green">]</font></sup></small> 22:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

::::We can only summarize the info we have. According to Duggan's mother's statement , she is Jewish and her husband was born in Ireland. She doesn't say where she was born, or what religion her husband follows (except that he isn't Jewish). If that's what we know that's what we should say. I'm sure we can find way of conveying it that doesn't make the two equivalent. Perhaps:
::::*''Duggan was born in London, the son of Hugo, who has was born in Ireland, and Erica, is Jewish and who followed Jewish traditions on raising her son''.
::::That's not quite it either... ]] ] 01:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think SlimVirgin had it right when she referred to the "alleged relevance." I also think that Cberlet had it right when he objected to a formulation that emphasized the religious orientation of the mother, while omitting that of the father -- it is a compination of undue weight and ], because it would be an attempt to slant the article in a way so as to promote a theory that Duggan was a victim of anti-semitism, without providing a reliable source. I propose that you leave the article as is, unless you have a quote from the mother that explicitly says "I think my son was targetted by antisemitism," and then it would have to be properly sourced (not from a self-published site like Justice for Jeremiah.") It seems highly speculative and therefore the sourcing requirements must be stringent. --] (]) 06:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

:By whom is Justice for Jeremiah self-published? Anyway there are other sources that describe Duggan as Jewish. The ethnic and religious heritage are important to any biography. ]] ] 06:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

:I've added the text I drafted above. Further improvements are welcome. ]] ] 21:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

== Improper use of a foreign language source ==

I have been following the discussion of this article at the Misplaced Pages Review, and I agree that the following source should not be used: by an unknown translator of the "Berliner Zeitung" is hosted on a self-published website. We have no way of knowing whether the translation is accurate. --] (]) 07:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
:Sockpuppets are no welcome on this topic. Please edit here under your main account. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 07:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

:Helloooo....I love everyone on Wiki and on the wiki-review! Kisses! But the new account is right, there is a problem with the article here: The article in BZ says, that they put Jeremiah "through the wringer" and Misplaced Pages cites this as "in the wringer". So, not even citation is correct.
Cheerio! Love you all! ] (]) 14:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

:Ah, another mystery editor. Regarding foreign language sources, there's always a problem with translations. Whether translated by Google or Babelfish, by partisan movements, by regular Misplaced Pages editors or by mystery editors, there is always a question about the accuracy. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 17:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

:I am distributing Hugs, Kisses and Corrections. Do you find that "mysterious"? Do you want a big Bear Hug? Cheerio! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Whoever you are, mystery editor, the correction has already been made. The text of the article says "through the wringer". &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 18:32, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks, Love and Kisses and a big Bear Hug to Will! Cheerio! ] (]) 19:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

If someone wants to question a translation, they should make specific points in doing so. Which aspects of this translation are deemed questionable? ] (]) 01:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

:I don't quite understand, actually. The IP says it should be "through the wringer" instead of "in the wringer". But the article has always said "through". I'd assume that it's an idiomatic metaphore, not a literal claim. Maybe the IP misread this article. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 01:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::Quite metaphorical. That particular expression is more common in German than in English (for whatever reason ;) ). It says "in the wringer" on the website. Just a Germanism; the translation was not done by a native speaker. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 01:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:I've checked the translation on justiceforjeremiah.com. It is pretty accurate; small mistakes I found are: the number of the road is wrong; it is B 455 in the original, not 445; the original does not say "that Jeremiah had rubbed the cadre school's ''organisers'' up the wrong way", it just says "Es stellte sich heraus, dass Jeremiah ''dort'' angeeckt war," meaning he had rubbed (unspecified) "people" the wrong way. The rest is sometimes a bit clunky, but generally quite accurate. I've linked to the German original, and left the translation as a secondary link. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 01:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

:Oh, so its metaphorical, not literal. Very disappointing. I had thought Larouche to be more evil than this, but if he only uses metaphorical wringers and no literal ones..Thats disappointing. Anyway, Cheers, and Hugs and Kisses and a big Bear Hug to Will for being such a cutie! ] (]) 04:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

==Mail and times==
Jayen, you were saying on the LaRouche talk page that some issues here were unclear, so I've restored some earlier material that I'd removed as too detailed. The problem has been that LaRouche accounts have insisted some material be removed, then have later complained that it wasn't clear how certain issues were linked. I've therefore restored some of that material, including one of the sources who said LaRouche had stayed on for a few days after the conference, as you requested. The article is still only 22 kB of prose, so the extra details haven't made it too long. Thanks for checking that translation. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 21:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks, will have a look through. I restored that part about him saying to his girlfriend he feared he had an implant in his body; that seems striking. One thing that's just occurred to me is that we may be quoting times from two different time zones. When Jeremiah spoke to his mum in England, it was 5.30 in Germany (and 4.30 in the UK). However, when we say that he called his girlfriend in Paris at 4:15 a.m, that would seem to have been Central European Time (France and Germany are in the same time zone, the UK is not). Is the 4:15 am time from the BBC programme? At any rate, if he called his girlfriend at 4:15 CET and his mum at 4:30 UK time, there would have been more than an hour between the two calls. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 21:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:Just parking a source for potential use later: --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 21:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:We say, "It is not known where these telephone calls were made from". That is not in the source; the source just says the calls were not made from a mobile he had been lent. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 22:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Jayen, is there a reason you keep adding the Mail? What it says is repetitive, and it's best to stick to the highest-quality newspapers. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 22:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

:Sorry, didn't see the above. Combining the headers. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 22:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::The Daily Mail has had its share of problems, and I wouldn't use it for tabloid-like claims in BLPs; I believe it has been sued for such things, and lost in court, several times. But for straight news reporting (outside the realms of science, medicine etc.) consensus at RS/N seems to be it is an RS. I am inclined to rate it of value here because they sent their correspondent, Sarah Oliver, over to Wiesbaden in 2003. Their reports on several aspects of events in Germany are quite detailed and appear to be based on local research. Btw, "magnetic things" are also mentioned in the Washington Post, adding corroboration. The "implants" are not in the WP; but given that they appear in at least two Daily Mail reports, separated by several years, I am inclined to think they are based on an interview conducted at the time. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 00:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
:Be careful about OR regarding the times. First, we should stick to the best sources for them. Secondly, bear in mind that time differences vary across the year; we'd need to know what the differences were in March 2003. And third, it's possible the newspapers themselves got confused. Probably the clearest sources on this issue are those written just after the inquest, because they would have been referring to official documents. Where there is confusion, we should clarify in a footnote. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 22:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::The says he called his girlfriend in Paris at 3.20, and expressly states that was about an hour before he called his mother at 4.30. German papers say he called his mother at around 5.30. I'm pretty sure this stacks up, but I'll double check when the UK and German changed from standard time to DST that year. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 22:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::Daylight Saving Time in both the UK and Germany began on 30 March in 2003. The changeover date has been synchronised since the late 90s. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 23:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

==Citations needed==
I believe we need sources for the following content:

{{quotation|The British inquest heard from a psychiatrist that Duggan had no history of mental illness. His mother told the court she believed he had been the victim of a recruiting technique used within the LaRouche movement known as "ego stripping," in which recruits are made to doubt all their basic beliefs. A psychiatrist testified that a severe stress reaction can be caused by a rapid change in a person's belief system.}}


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I can't find it in the sources indicated. The sources probably got displaced somewhere along the line. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 22:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
==Statements by Sebastian Drochon==
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090106112310/http://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2005/2005_10-19/2005_10-19/2005-11/pdf/40-42_11_intduggan.pdf to http://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2005/2005_10-19/2005_10-19/2005-11/pdf/40-42_11_intduggan.pdf
We should definitely add the statements made by Sebastian Drochon, another person staying with Duggan in the house, as to what happened that night, plus the fact that he called Duggan's girlfriend that night to ask whether she had heard from him. Sources:
*http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-lost-boy-537274.html
*http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/16/16074/1.html --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 22:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1446301/German-police-probe-into-British-students-death-was-inadequate.html --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 23:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
:. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 23:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks. We could still expand on that, using the German-language source. Do you read German? --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 23:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
:::Yes, I added more from the German article, so is a better diff. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 23:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::::Yes, brill, thank you. About the time difference: I think the sources are agreed that the phone call to his mother was an hour or so after the call to his girlfriend. If the sources report these to have been at 3.20 and 4.30 respectively, or at 4.20 and 5.30 respectively, than that would be consistent with different papers using different time zones as their reference. Just so we don't confuse the reader more than we have to. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 23:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 03:48, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
:::::I added something about it in a footnote. It was never clear where he made those calls from, or when -- whether it was before or after he left the house, and I seem to recall some sources saying the calls (to girlfriend and mother) were made in quick succession. I'll re-read the various sources later and tomorrow to refresh my memory. It's been a while since I've read most of them. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 23:32, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::I believe the second call was made after he left the house. German sources say he left the house at 5.15, and spoke to his mum around 5.30. It seems most likely to me that he called from a public phone box; hence being cut off twice. To keep an international call going from a phone box, you had to feed lots of coins. :( British sources consistently say his mum was called just before 4.30, and that time is etched in her mind. '''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 23:37, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::The mother has a timeline , and confirms what you're saying, that the calls to girlfriend and mother were one hour apart (see point 15). <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 23:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks, great! That settles it. We just have to decide now which time zone we want to use, and how to prevent readers who have read a source of one or the other type coming in and changing the time time and time again as per what they have just read. :) --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 00:09, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 18:39, 4 January 2025

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Death of Jeremiah Duggan article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 20, 2006Articles for deletionSpeedily kept
October 6, 2009Articles for deletionKept
March 25, 2010Peer reviewReviewed
This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconBiography
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
WikiProject iconUnited Kingdom
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconGermany Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconLaw Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconDeath Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This page has been cited as a source by a notable professional or academic publication:
Baroness Sarah Ludford, Member of the European Parliament: "MEP urges investigation of Jeremiah Duggan's death"
Mediation, arbitration,
requests for clarification, and
other discussions about the
LaRouche movement, 2004-2008
Long term abuse subpage, LaRouche accounts
ArbCom clarification/enforcement,
AN/I, 2005-8
Arbitration 2006
Arbitration 2005
Arbitration 2004
Mediation 2006 and 2007
Mediation 2004
Article talk 2004-2007
Template talk
Categories
This box:

Main sources

Toolbox

In the order they appeared:

SlimVirgin

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Death of Jeremiah Duggan. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:48, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Categories:
Talk:Death of Jeremiah Duggan: Difference between revisions Add topic