| Revision as of 19:57, 3 May 2024 editBejnar (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers53,407 edits →6th century slavs← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 20:59, 12 January 2025 edit undoWizmut (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,935 edits remove duplicate archive template. relax archive bot |
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* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Growth (1453–1683)) is no longer available because it was ] before. <!-- {"title":"Growth (1453–1683)","appear":{"revid":28660711,"parentid":28618823,"timestamp":"2005-11-18T10:15:44Z","replaced_anchors":{"Rise (1299-1453)":"Rise (1299–1453)","Growth (1453-1683)":"Growth (1453–1683)","Stagnation (1683-1827)":"Stagnation (1683–1827)","Decline (1828-1908)":"Decline (1828–1908)","Dissolution (1908-1922)":"Dissolution (1908–1922)"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":590912913,"parentid":590668522,"timestamp":"2014-01-16T02:43:43Z","replaced_anchors":{"Growth (1453–1683)":"Growth (1453–1682)"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"very_different":false,"rename_to":"Growth (1453–1682)"} --> |
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== Unsourced, original research == |
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== lead section region discussion == |
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Today's reverted edit caught my eye... Large parts of the article are without references, or are ], or misrepresentation of the sources (cherry-picked data, comments nowhere to be found in the sources), etc. I've marked only a few in ], and am asking for proper sourcing with no original research. ] Thank you. ] (]) 10:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Early nineteenth century population sources == |
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I've recently reverted a new user's change that removed the notion of Dalmatia being in Croatia from the top of the article (which would be glaring NPOV/UNDUE issue), while at the same it is a bit overcrowded there, esp. in combination with the hatnote. Suggestions welcome how to phrase it in a more concise manner. --] (]) 14:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC) |
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There's been some edit warring in this article and at ], the latest ones between @] and @]. Two "sources" are given for the 1803 Italian-speaking population: |
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== 6th century slavs == |
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# Seton-Watson (1967). ''Italy from Liberalism to Fascism''. '''Page 107'''. |
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# Bartoli (1919). ''Le parlate italiane della Venezia Giulia e della Dalmazia. '''Page 16'''. |
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is about Tunis, and text search returns nothing for 1803, 33 percent etc. |
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I was able to find several different copies of Bartoli's paper under the given title: , , and . I can't seem to find where Bartoli discusses any population numbers. |
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Per ] and all other relevant policies, I am ] to source this material properly. Only then can the material be discussed further. ] (]) 15:57, 3 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:LukeWiller has not replied yet... Until then, you might be interested to see the number of Italians in Dalmatia in 1851 (14,645 or ~3,7%) as reported by the Milanese newspaper "Il Crepuscolo" (page 215) |
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In an edit, editor ] mentioned that "the article" indicated that the ] (South Slavs) who entered the area in the 6th century were "mostly Croats". I would be happy to review that specific article if ] would provide the citation. In reading {{Cite book |first=John |last=Van Antwerp Fine Jr. |author-link=John Van Antwerp Fine Jr. |year=1991 |title=The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Y0NBxG9Id58C |publisher=University of Michigan Press |year=1991 |isbn=978-0-472-08149-3 }} pages 50–57 it appears that the Croats were not originally Slavs, but had an Iranian origin (p. 57), and that they didn't enter Dalmatia until the 7th century after defeating the incumbent ], citing Constantine. See also the sentence in this article "According to the work De Administrando Imperio written by the 10th-century Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII, the Croats had arrived in Roman province of Dalmatia in the first half of the 7th century," citing Katičić (1989) and Birin (2015), two articles in Croatian. On this basis having Croats included in the Slavic invasion of the 6th century seems to be an over generalization. Like I said, I look forward to reviewing the article mentioned by ]. --] (]) 19:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:https://books.google.hr/books?id=VrZLnYHwAE4C&pg=PA1&source=gb_mobile_entity&hl=hr&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1&gl=HR&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false |
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:There exist different interpretations of the DAI in literature. DAI itself anachronistically projects events, and sometimes is contradicting own accounts often because of political reasons. Croats were represented as new arrivals from faraway lands and liberators of Roman land from the Avar rule although that's highly unlikely and most probably merely revolted against the Avars after already arrived. Fine sometimes isn't most accurate/factual and when cited alone should be attributed, and the Iranian origin/identity of the Croats isn't something usually considered in the historiography anymore. --] (]) 21:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:The same number for the year 1851 are also provided by the Dalmatian Italian from Šibenik, Niccolo Tomasseo, in the work "Geografia storica moderna universale" from 1857 (page 1063-1064) |
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:My main point was that three cited sources have the Croats arriving later than the 6th century Slavs. And the arrivals are distinct. But what does ] mean by "the Iranian origin/identity of the Croats isn't something usually considered in the historiography anymore." -- is it ignored? or is there published research suggesting that it isn't so? I note that recent historiography regarding the Ustashe concept of "Croatian" accepted the eventual genetic merging of the Croats with the Slavs as reported by Fine. Regarding recent research, see footnote 71 in where it says: "Although there is an on-going academic debate on the origins of the proto-Croats, the name 'Croat' itself is most probably of Iranian origin. See Radoslav Katičić, 'On the Origins of the Croats' in Ivan Supičić ''Croatia in the Early Middle Ages: a cultural survey'' (London: Philip Wilson Publishers, 1999), pp. 149–167." See also, Bilogrivić, Goran (2018) "Carolingian weapons and the problem of Croat migration and ethnogenesis." in ''Migration, Integration and Connectivity on the Southeastern Frontier of the Carolingian Empire'' Brill, pp. 86–99; and Goss, Vladimir P. (2013) ''Starohrvatska prosvjeta'' 3.40, pp. 243–253. Regardless of the possible Iranian origin of the Croats, they do not seem to be part of the Slavic invasion of the 6th century. --] (]) 17:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:https://books.google.hr/books/about/Geografia_storica_moderna_universale.html?id=6xJHChzwU38C&printsec=frontcover&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_entity&hl=hr&gl=HR&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false |
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::Again, depends on the perspective and critical analysis of DAI in the sources. If there's no critical analysis and sources stick with the DAI narrative then often provide only such viewpoint. It is related to the Grafenauer's thesis that there happened two migrations of the South Slavs, that the described events in DAI are unrelated. It is impossible to differentiate Croats from the other Slavs. There exist many sources which argue that the Croats arrived with the late 6th century Slavs - however the arrival of the late 6th century Slavs is a whole other issue itself as the sources sometime do not differentiate between seasonal plundering, warring, arrival and settlement of the Slavs/Croats. The arrival and settlement in narrow Dalmatia can be surely argued only since the 7th century. As for the Iranian origin/identity, previously in the historiography was popular an idea that the Croats didn't arrive as Slavs yet as an Iranian-Slavic elite in the 7th century. Today, such concept is mainly used for explaining the etymology of the Croatian ethnonym and related to the supposed Proto-Croats history somewhere in Ukrainian homeland (and often only explained as a Iranian loanword into Proto-Slavic rather than claiming an existence of some Iranian tribe of Croats). Goss wasn't an expert on genetics to be considered a reliable source as well the source is greatly outdated/wrong by now.--] (]) 07:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:This number closely matches the number of Francesco Carrara (16,000 Dalmatian Italians) from 1846... It is clear that we cannot talk about 60,770 (~20%) Italians in Dalmatia in 1845. Numbers for 1803 and 1809 are even more ridiculous. ] (]) 06:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC) |
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::Currently, the best historiographical & archaeological source about the topic, or at least an overview about it, is Krešimir Filipec (2020), "Praishodište i/ili situacija. Slaveni i Hrvati – do zauzimanja nove domovine" (Origin and/or situation. Slavs and Croats – until the conquest of a new homeland), Zagreb: Centar za ranosrednjovjekovna istraživanja Zagreb-Lobor: Odsjek za arheologiju Filozofskog fakulteta Sveučilišta, Katedra za opću srednjevjekovnu i nacionalnu arheologiju: Arheološki zavod Filozofskog fakulteta. ISBN 978-953-57369-1-2. |
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::I will check the current sources and provide better ones, but the issue and details in question are out of scope for this article. There already exist other articles which are dealing with them. It is enough saying that the South Slavs arrived in the late 6th-early 7th century.--] (]) 08:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Da. But don't include the Croats in that statement. --] (]) 19:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC) |
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