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{{Nazism left wing}} |
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{{Nazi common name|otherpage=y}} |
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== Other countries == |
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==Rfc responses== |
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{{reply to|Slatersteven|Srich32977|Orenburg1|ActivelyDisinterested|Jlwoodwa|Nikkimaria|JohnAdams1800|Roggenwolf|HapHaxion|Docktuh|SMcCandlish|Grayfell}} It would be much appreciated if editors (any and all, not just those pinged) could please reply to the rfc ]. This is relevant to Nazism and the "Nazism is a right-wing ideology." notice that appears at the top of the editing page when users attempt to edit pages such as this one (i.e. Talk:Nazism). ] (]) 12:14, 22 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Nazism had a powerful influence on neighboring European countries. It seems to me to be appropriate to include some reference to this such as: |
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It was also contemporaneous or promoted in other European countries, particularly those with large ] communities such as ], ], ] and ] |
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*Nicholas M. Nagy-Talavera(2001) The Green Shirts and the Others: A History of Fascism in Hungary and Romania http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gsKbQgAACAAJ&dq=nagy-Talavera&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zJ2UU5OaMYal8AHY-4GACA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAQ <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:43, June 8, 2014</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> |
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== Edit request: CS and Hungary == |
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I don't think it's appropriate to equate Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the lede as countries where Nazism took hold. Hungary as a nation fell to Nazi governance in its entirety and conducted itself as a Nazi state, whereas Czechoslovakia only did so after German invasion. An element (the German minority) within Czechoslovakia supported Nazism, but the same could be said for the United Kingdom. Czechoslovakia should be removed from the lede. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 04:51, July 21, 2014</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> |
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== Far-right == |
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There´s something that still bothers me in this article.... If nazism (or national socialism) has so many characteristics of leftists forms or government, like government centralization, anti-capitalism, and totalitarism, among others, why the article still consider it as a "far-right" movement? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:15, 22 July 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Just see the countless discussions above – and in the archive. Your basic premises are just wrong. Rgds ] <sub>]</sub> 17:49, 22 July 2016 (UTC) |
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::Indeed. This is an old and somewhat boring debate, and not directly related to any likely improvements to the page, but for what it's worth, the characteristics you single out are not universally or exclusively those of the left as most serious political scientists see the world (for example there are plenty of non-totalitarian leftists and quite a few anti-capitalist rightists). And Nazism is usually bracketed, along with other forms of fascism, as a phenomenon of the right in both academic and general, standard discourse, for reasons not worth repeating here and which discussion here is not going to change. Whether individual commenters or WP editors agree with that broad classification is neither here nor there. Perhaps the next time this comes up, the thread could simply be closed off and hatted. <small>''']''' ''']/]'''</small> 21:32, 22 July 2016 (UTC) |
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These exceptions you talk about are not relevant to the general understanding - quote -"for example there are plenty of non-totalitarian leftists and quite a few anti-capitalist rightists" - these are exceptions to the general meaning of the words and therefore only confuse the debate and the public. |
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] (]) 02:11, 20 November 2016 (UTC) |
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:::It is always hard to tell when this question is being asked in good faith but clearly it is asked in good faith at least some of the time. Maybe we could save ourselves some trouble, while still providing anybody who is genuinely interested with a good quality answer, if we made a little FAQ for this and just referred them to that each time it is asked? --] (]) 22:32, 22 July 2016 (UTC) |
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::::I would just say that articles are supposed to represent what reliable sources say. Further discussion is unproductive, since people who think the nazis were left-wing do not follow the same reasoning process that we do, that is they do not examine evidence and draw conclusions but selectively look for evidence to support their views. I suppose someone who knows little about politics could wonder why a party that called itself "National Socialist" was right-wing, but I have not come across anyone. ] (]) 22:51, 22 July 2016 (UTC) |
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::::: The problem is probably that there is differnt understandings of the "left" and "right". The article claims that they are on the right "because they belived superior elements in society had the right to dominate". The people on the right don't belive this, and view the term as "freedom, liberty, capitalism etc.". And view left as "goverment, anti-capitalism, state intervention in private life (totalitarianism), welfaire etc.". The National Socialist parti fit under their defention of the "left". The only difference is nationalism I guess, because todays left are not nationalists. ] (]) 17:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::: You are referring to a specific segment of the Right. Most of the "left-wing" policies you mention were introduced by Conservatives and continued by the Nazis. On the other hand, the Nazis actually privatized government owned corporations. Both Left and Right change policies depending on economic circumstances and what is popular at the time. The group that came closest to what you call "right-wing" in the Weimar Republic were "left liberals," who were considered centrist. Some elements on the Left are completely opposed to government, state intervention or welfare, since they see government as an instrument of capitalism. Note that the precursors of the Christian Democratic and Free Democrats voted to make Hitler a dictator while the Social Democrats voted against. ] (]) 19:49, 23 July 2016 (UTC) |
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: The term right wing is used to describe political positions that are promoting a social hierarchy and social inequality, and hold that they are natural and desirable. The currents that are more moderate are considered to be center-right (christian democrats, national conservatives and economic liberals), and currents that are more extreme are considered to be far-right (fascist, nazis and racial supremacists.). While the term left wing is used to describe political positions promoting social equity and egalitarian society. Again, currents that are more moderate and want to reduce inequality are considered to be center-left (social democrats, democratic socialists), And currents that are more extreme and want to Abolish hierarchy and the class system are considered to be far-left (socialists, communists and anarchists). The word "socialism" in national socialism has a different meaning from system geralaly known as ], in the context of national socialism the term "socialism" means social solidarity and economic security for German peoples, but generally speaking ] is a system in which the means of production are in social ownership and control. Economically Nazi Germany was corporatist state capitalism and it opposed both free-market capitalism and socialism. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)</span></small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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It is an interesting point that Nazi is considered by so many as right wing, and I struggled to find information on it for a couple of years. Hitler's economic policy can be described as taking a Keynesian approach, traditionally 'left wing'. Many of the great Socialist thinkers in Germany had a central role in developing 'National Socialism'. The idea Nazi was just called Socialism to appeal to the masses, whilst not being Socialist, is clearly ridiculous. It could be considered right wing socialism and had early support from the Christian (right wing) socialists, but essentially it was authoritarian and collectivist and both left and right wing Germans (and other nations) loved it in the 1930's. Nazi occupies the same political space as Communism, but has a different 'fairy tale'. The right is harking back to a 'glorious past' and the left looks forward to a 'glorious future'. Hitler understood the similarity, he battled Communism because it was common knowledge 'you could easily convert a Communist to a Nazi and vice versa', with socialists acting as the 'fodder' for this. He was not actively attacking liberals, because there were no liberals in 1930's Germany, left and right were Socialist in approach. For the references to pretty much this entire paragraph, please read FA Hayek's 'The Road to Serfdom' written in 1943, it is an excellent treatment of the rise of Fascism from ostensibly left wing beginnings. Hitler did not dismantle democracy in Germany to enact a far right state, it was already gone. But Liberal ideals (traditionally right wing) are not usually concerned with increasing the coercive power of the state and stron governmental control in all aspects of life (Nazi's actually defined how Germans should spend their 'free time' which is obviously nonsense, and also a little to intrusive for a government!). Also, if you want a quick self test on the idea that Nazi is left wing, I sincerely suggest looking up the Nazi Creed and then list points within it that are 1:racist, 2:left wing and 3:right wing (you can have left and right wing racists). You may be surprised at your judgement re left and right in the Nazi Creed. Rhys 11:33, 7 September 2016 (UTC) |
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:We have all heard those arguments before. How Nazism is described cannot be based on users' interpretations but on the assessment of experts. Only if you can persuade the experts they are wrong then we can revise the article. Incidentally, Hayek was not "right wing" in the context of the Weimar Republic, but a centrist. (Conservative=right, liberal=center, socialist=left) ] (]) 19:19, 7 September 2016 (UTC) |
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Rhys you are quite right. The Four Deuces|TFD has been here a long time. When you argue he argues back, he won't accept anything. He tries to shut down the discussion quote "We have all heard those arguments before.....Only if you can persuade the experts they are wrong then we can revise the article." It makes no difference even if you get experts and evidence to change the text and improve it. Once he has lost the academic argument TFD will just repeatedly remove it/undo it. if not today next week or next month. TFD has been here along time. He has his own agenda and most people give up after six months. |
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Just a further note on TFD : he is a great misinformer : Quote TFD "the Nazis actually privatised government owned corporations......Some elements on the Left are completely opposed to government, state intervention or welfare, since they see government as an instrument of capitalism; and further discussion is unproductive (said like a true left elitist)" - obviously this is absolute nonsense when trying to understand Nazism (the Nazis closed down most small businesses and expropriated the larger ones into the state) or the left. It makes you laugh that he would even write this. Then he goes on to talk about how he is just following the experts. You can add N-HH to that list as well. |
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So I and many people agree with UTC that this article is still wrong. (Its why this issue keeps coming back - surprise surprise !) |
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The arguments in the article that Nazism is right wing are false arguments, these being - 1. Nazi's hate communists therefore they must be right wing - anyone can hate communists left or right. 2. Nazis protected private property - they said this just before they got elected but once in power everything was for the state (a left wing policy) 4. Nazis hate Jews and are racist therefore they are right wing - wrong - left and right can be racist, just look at the British labour party they are anti-Semitic. 5, Some far right parties state they have Nazi affiliations - this does not mean that Nazis are right wing. |
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This article is more designed to confuse the laymen than educate him. |
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Having the introduction of this article state that Nazism is right wing is misleading. I think that some of the editors here have a personal interest in trying to link the right wing with the Nazi party, and absolve the left wing of any Nazi characteristics, hence the dogmatic and unhelpful approach we have seen on the subject and the lack of acceptance of alternative views even where evidenced as main stream political thought. |
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To step back from the problem I have noted the accepted definitions of Left and right today. I hope this provides more insight for those thoughtful enough to consider the implications. |
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Politically left/right = much government/less government |
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Socially left/right = much social security/less social security |
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Economically left/right = controlled market/free market |
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This is Isidora Müller's view who is a social scientist; it shows that the answer is not straight forward. But it highlights that the Misplaced Pages article shows none of this complexity or insight into these issues. Therefore again it is not a good article and needs to address these issues. |
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Hitler changed his policies over time, and had to give up his free market (in Germany) idea during WW II even though he was a strong anti-communist . |
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==> All in all I would say he was first economically slightly right then left. |
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He built some kind of a totalitarian state which was highly authoritarian aka fascistic and was national socialistic (welfare state but only for Germans) but was on the other hand conservative and anti-liberal about society |
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==> He was (national-) socially left. But not that kind of socially left we normally have. |
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] (]) 01:45, 20 November 2016 (UTC) |
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:Misplaced Pages is not a ]. Please confine comments to the talk page to referenced material focused on changes to the article rather that expressing your view of other editors and your own opinions on the subject ----] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:38, 20 November 2016 (UTC) |
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== Part about nazis meaning Germanic or Nordic people when saying Aryan, removed == |
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A user, some time ago, removed the specification that the nazis meant Nordic or Germanic people when speaking about Aryans, early on in "racial theories". Don't you think this should be included, since people may misunderstand if not specified clearly? This has been discussed before and we concluded that it should be included. I do also think it should have been specified in "nationalism and racialism". |
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In general the article are in a worse state today, than at 23. August 2016.] (]) 11:45, 16 September 2016 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2016 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Nazism|answered=yes}} |
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== There is no such consensus among historians == |
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{{discussion top}} |
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and "reliable sources" is an argumentum ad verecundiam and therefore a logical fallacy. ] (]) 21:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:We're not doing this. Come correct with sources that back ''your'' position or just accept that history is not on your side. ] ] 22:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC) |
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{{discussion bottom}} |
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== Inclusion of Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels == |
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I wish to edit the main title to National Socialism. People think this is about Neo Nazism half of the time. |
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I believe it may be a good idea to mention the influence leibenfels and his magazine Ostara had on Nazism ] (]) 02:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC) |
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] (]) 01:13, 4 November 2016 (UTC) |
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:Source? ] (]) 11:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC) |
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:Not done. Please propose specific edits. '''<font face="Arial">] <small>]</small></font>''' 01:37, 4 November 2016 (UTC) |
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view · edit Frequently asked questions
Why does this article say that the Nazis were right-wing?
Because that is the consensus of reliable sources, in this case historians and political scientists.
But the word "socialist" is right in their name!
Many political entities have names that can be misleading. Consider, for example, the Holy Roman Empire (a confederation of mainly German territories during the Middle Ages and the early modern period) and North Korea's official name, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (a totalitarian dictatorship). In addition to this, the usage of the word "socialism" by the Nazis is different from the common usage of the term "socialism", which refers to an economic philosophy involving advocacy for social ownership of the means of production. 
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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