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	\| dykdate = 2021-6-15		\| dykdate = 2021-6-15
	\| dykentry = ... that ''']''' lost $16.3 billion in a single day, the largest in the history of the ''Bloomberg Billionaires Index''?		\| dykentry = ... that ''']''' lost $16.3 billion in a single day, the largest in the history of the ''Bloomberg Billionaires Index''?
	\| dyknom = Template:Did you know nominations/Elon Musk		\| dyknom = Template:Did you know nominations/Elon Musk
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			{{refideas \|state=
	{{afd-merged-from\|Elon Musk in popular culture\|Elon Musk in popular culture\|14 May 2022}}
			\| {{cite news \|last1=Breland \|first1=Ali \|date=2024-08-20 \|title=The Far Right Is Becoming Obsessed With Race and IQ \|url=https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/08/race-science-far-right-charlie-kirk/679527/ \|url-status=live \|language=en \|publisher=] \|archive-url=}}
	{{Press
			}}
	\| author = Isobel Asher Hamilton
			{{Afd-merged-from\|Elon Musk in popular culture\|Elon Musk in popular culture\|14 May 2022}}{{Press
	\| title = Elon Musk fact-checked his own Misplaced Pages page and requested edits including the fact he does 'zero investing'
	\| ~~org~~ ~~= ]~~		\| author = Isobel Asher Hamilton
			\| title = Elon Musk fact-checked his own Misplaced Pages page and requested edits including the fact he does 'zero investing'
	\| url = https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-wikipedia-zero-investing-2019-12
	\| ~~date~~ = ~~December~~ ~~23,~~ ~~2019~~		\| org = ]
			\| url = https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-wikipedia-zero-investing-2019-12
	\| accessdate = December 23, 2019
			\| date = December 23, 2019
			\| accessdate = December 23, 2019

	\| author2 = Don Reisinger		\| author2 = Don Reisinger
	\| title2 = Elon Musk Took Issue With His Misplaced Pages Page, So He Asked the Community to Fix It. They Did		\| title2 = Elon Musk Took Issue With His Misplaced Pages Page, So He Asked the Community to Fix It. They Did
	\| org2 = ]		\| org2 = ]
	\| url2 = https://www.inc.com/don-reisinger/elon-musk-took-issue-with-his-wikipedia-page-so-he-asked-community-to-fix-it-they-did.html		\| url2 = https://www.inc.com/don-reisinger/elon-musk-took-issue-with-his-wikipedia-page-so-he-asked-community-to-fix-it-they-did.html
	\| date2 = December 23, 2019		\| date2 = December 23, 2019
	\| accessdate2 = December 23, 2019		\| accessdate2 = December 23, 2019

	\| author3 = Sissi Cao		\| author3 = Sissi Cao
	\| title3 = Elon Musk Says His Misplaced Pages Page Is 'Insanely' Inaccurate		\| title3 = Elon Musk Says His Misplaced Pages Page Is 'Insanely' Inaccurate
	\| org3 = ]		\| org3 = ]
	\| url3 = https://observer.com/2019/12/tesla-spacex-ceo-elon-musk-tweets-wikipedia-page-error/		\| url3 = https://observer.com/2019/12/tesla-spacex-ceo-elon-musk-tweets-wikipedia-page-error/
	\| date3 = December 23, 2019		\| date3 = December 23, 2019
	\| accessdate3 = December 27, 2019		\| accessdate3 = December 27, 2019

	\| author4 =		\| author4 =
	\| title4 = Misplaced Pages locks Elon Musk's page after he 'begs' Twitter users to 'trash him' on site		\| title4 = Misplaced Pages locks Elon Musk's page after he 'begs' Twitter users to 'trash him' on site
	\| org4 = ]		\| org4 = ]
	\| url4 = https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world/wikipedia-locks-elon-musks-page-after-he-begs-twitter-users-to-trash-him-on-site-127372		\| url4 = https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world/wikipedia-locks-elon-musks-page-after-he-begs-twitter-users-to-trash-him-on-site-127372
	\| date4 = 17 August 2020		\| date4 = August 17, 2020
	\| accessdate4 = 17 August 2020		\| accessdate4 = August 17, 2020

	\| author5 = Sanya Jain		\| author5 = Sanya Jain
	\| title5 = Elon Musk Is Begging - Yes, Begging - To Be Trashed On Misplaced Pages. True Story		\| title5 = Elon Musk Is Begging - Yes, Begging - To Be Trashed On Misplaced Pages. True Story
	\| org5 = ]		\| org5 = ]
	\| url5 = https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/elon-musk-is-begging-his-followers-to-trash-him-on-wikipedia-2280516		\| url5 = https://www.ndtv.com/offbeat/elon-musk-is-begging-his-followers-to-trash-him-on-wikipedia-2280516
	\| date5 = 17 August 2020		\| date5 = August 17, 2020
	\| accessdate5 = 17 August 2020		\| accessdate5 = August 17, 2020

	\| author6 = Stephen Harrison		\| author6 = Stephen Harrison
	\| title6 = The Controversy Brewing on Elon Musk’s Misplaced Pages Page		\| title6 = The Controversy Brewing on Elon Musk’s Misplaced Pages Page
	\| org6 = ]		\| org6 = ]
	\| url6 = https://slate.com/technology/2022/05/elon-musk-wikipedia-page.html		\| url6 = https://slate.com/technology/2022/05/elon-musk-wikipedia-page.html
	\| date6 = 3 May 2022		\| date6 = May 3, 2022
	\| accessdate6 = 3 May 2022		\| accessdate6 = May 3, 2022

			\| author7 = Dave Lee
			\| title7 = Now Elon Musk is attacking Misplaced Pages
			\| org7 = ]
			\| url7 = https://www.afr.com/technology/now-elon-musk-is-attacking-wikipedia-20231025-p5eewj
			\| date7 = October 26, 2023
			\| accessdate7 = October 31, 2023

			\| author8 = CT Jones
			\| title8 = Elon Musk Offers to Also Ruin Misplaced Pages
			\| org8 = ]
			\| url8 = https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/elon-musk-wikipedia-twitter-x-encyclopedia-1234861220/
			\| date8 = October 24, 2023
			\| accessdate8 = November 5, 2023

			\| author9 = Will Bunch
			\| title9 = Explaining the right: Why Musk and MAGA are so mad at Misplaced Pages
			\| org9 = ]
			\| url9 = https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/12/28/2293832/-Explaining-the-right-Why-Musk-and-MAGA-are-so-mad-at-Misplaced Pages
			\| date9 = December 29, 2024
			\| accessdate9 = December 29, 2024

			\| author10 = Oliver Willis
			\| title10 = Forget Greenland. Trump and Musk’s real WWIII is an all-out war on the truth.
			\| org10 = ]
			\| url10 = https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/trump-musk-wikipedia-assault-media-20241229.html
			\| date10 = December 29, 2024
			\| accessdate10 = December 31, 2024

			\| author11 = Marcie Jones
			\| title11 = Misplaced Pages Won't Let Elon Musk Fluff His Resume. Heritage Foundation Will Help By Terrorizing The Editors.
			\| org11 = ]
			\| url11 = https://www.wonkette.com/p/wikipedia-wont-let-elon-musk-fluff
			\| date11 = January 8, 2025
			\| accessdate11 = January 8, 2025

			\| author12 = Anthony Blair
			\| title12 = Elon Musk lashes out at Misplaced Pages over 'Nazi salute' claims at Trump’s inauguration as he calls for site to be defunded
			\| org12 = ]
			\| url12 = https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/32913350/elon-musk-nazi-salute-donald-trump-inauguration-speech/
			\| date12 = January 21, 2025
			\| accessdate12 = January 21, 2025
	}}		}}
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			== RfC: Mentioning Oligarch Characterization in Lead ==
	__TOC__

			<!-- ] 09:01, 30 January 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil\|1738227666}}
			{{rfc\|bio\|rfcid=2AA1862}}
			Musk is the wealthiest person in the world. He has been described as an oligarch by prominent commentators, academics, and experts.

			Should a variant of the following sentence be included in the lead?

			''Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.</small>
			''

			Does this addition have any support? Are there any other suggestions? (Some editors have argued that Musk should directly be referred to as an oligarch in the lead. I now agree with those that oppose doing so per ].)
			] (]) 08:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

			*'''Support''' I support this course of action.

			:Here are just a few notable examples of prominent commentators, academics, and experts who have characterized Musk as an oligarch:
			:*]-winning economist ], has described Musk as a "petulant oligarch"
			:*Former ] ] has referred to Musk as an oligarch
			:*Senior fellow at ] and former Senior Director at the ] during the Trump administration, ], has characterized Musk as an emerging oligarch
			:*Ali Breland, staff writer at ], has described Musk as "a new kind of oligarch"
			:*United States House ] (D-N.Y.) has called Musk as an "unelected oligarch."
			:*United States Senator Bernie Sanders (I-V.T.) has described Musk as an oligarch
			:*There are many other examples in reliable sources of the term oligarch being associated with Musk, including by academics like Northwestern political scientist ], who specializes in the study of oligarchy.
			:This characterization has received significant media coverage, especially in the past year.

			:Influential Russian billionaires such as ] are referred to as oligarchs in their article leads, as there is consensus in RS that they are oligarchs. This is clearly not true in the case of American billionaires like Musk. However, I believe that this characterization should still be briefly described in the lead in as neutral a way as possible.

			:''For reference, Oxford Languagues' Google dictionary defines an oligarch as, "a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence."
			''
			:''From the ] Misplaced Pages Page: A business leader can be considered an ] if some of the following conditions are satisfied:
			:# ''uses monopolistic tactics to dominate an industry;''
			:# ''possesses sufficient political power to promote their own interests, often exacerbating income inequality and corruption, particularly through policies that benefit the elite at the expense of the majority.''
			:# ''controls multiple businesses, which intensively coordinate their activities.''
			:] (]) 08:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I disagree, per ] regarding leads of BLPs, {{tq\|"News reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary."}}
			::Additionally, per ] policy, {{tq\|"The lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents."}}
			:::1. Does Musk's article go into more detail about him being an oligarch? The article must, if it is going to be considered summarizing the article's contents.
			:::2. And do we believe calling him an oligarch is one of the ''most important contents?'' I don't believe so. ] (]) 19:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' per the items in Firecat93's Business Oligarch list, I see only the last example as true. This seems like the purpose of the post is a derogatory one, as the term ''Oligarch'' . It's one thing in a legacy or speculation section, but the lead??? Not a good fit. I'm sure there are even more people that would describe him as something like a benevolent genius, where I'm sure he is closer to something in the middle ground. ] (]) 10:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@] Regardless of whether or the label applies, Musk has been described as an oligarch by academics and experts such as Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, and Fiona Hill. I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as in the lead.
			*:''Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.''
			*:I've listed some examples of this characterization in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s description of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" ] (]) 17:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::Look, we all know how politics is these days. If you are on the opposing side you're nothing short of Godzilla out to destroy the world. That isn't encyclopedic, and it's undue weight. As I had said, and what we do with many sports figures, in a legacy section or political enemy section, it could fit.... but it is certainly not something we would put in the lead. ] (]) 18:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*@] '''Support'''
			:reasons:
			:the '''duck test''': The "]" is a form of reasoning that identifies something based on its observable characteristics: "If it looks, swims, and quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck".Applied to Elon Musk as an oligarch, critics like Bernie Sanders argue that Musk's immense wealth and political influence resemble characteristics of oligarchy- concentrated power in the hands of the wealthy.Musk's actions, such as pressuring lawmakers and influencing government decisions, align with this critique, fitting the "duck test" for oligarchic behavior.
			:'''International perception''': sources should still be collected by expanding the relevant section of the article but internationally musk has been perceived as Oligarch.
			:Elon Musk has been characterized as an oligarch internationally, particularly in Germany and Britain:
			:Germany: Politicians like Dennis Radtke (CDU) and Anton Hofreiter (Greens) condemned Musk's endorsement of the far- right AfD, calling it a threat to democracy, "Haken dran" and "Lanz und Precht" discussed him as an Oligarch.
			:Britain: Media outlets like Spiked and Byline Times referred to Musk as a "foreign oligarch" due to his rumored $100 million donation to Nigel Farage's Reform UK party, raising concerns about foreign influence in politics ] (]) 10:32, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::By virtue of a "duck test," Musk would also be an engineer. The and have described him as such. So if a "duck test" and having some quantity of experts stating as such does not justify being described as an "engineer" on this page, then neither is it sufficient for "oligarch." ] (]) 11:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@] Hi, thank you for your reply.
			:::so, when is it possible for you to describe him or to call him an Oligarch or will you always move the goalposts? ] (]) 16:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::also I'm noticing, actually the discussion is not wether he is or is not an Oligarch but If it should be mentioned that people seem to perceive him as such. what do you think about this? ] (]) 16:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::@] Yes, thank you. I apologize if I didn't make this clear: I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.
			:::::''Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.''
			:::::I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" ] (]) 17:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Could it be acceptable to briefly mention he has been characterized as an engineer in the lead as per your proposal?
			::::::The relevance here is that established standards should be applied in a consistent manner. It's fine to change the standard, but it should be applied consistently. If we don't, then people will pick and choose which standard they want based on their preferred preference, which presents a bias issue. Editors will favor relaxed standards for information they like, and favor more stringent ones for information they don't like. ] (]) 01:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::See the FAQ. ] (]) 16:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' As we do not fact know how much influence he really has, yet. Also if we have him as an Oligarch would that not mean we have to say this about every rich person who meddles in politics? What makes Musk special? ] (]) 10:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:If every other rich person who meddles in politics has been described as an oligarch in a number of reliable sources, then we can describe them as oligarchs too. That's the only criteria for describing them as such; and this is an RfC on Musk alone, not every article about a rich person who meddles in politics. He's reliably described as an oligarch, he's one of the world's richest men; I would be comfortable describing him as such in-article.—] (]) ({{nowrap\|{{}}]{{nowrap\|}}}} me!) 12:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.
			*::''Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.''
			*::I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" ] (]) 17:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:::@] I wanted to make this distinction clearer, as it appears that my RfC suggestion was misinterpreted by some editors. ] (]) 17:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::Yep, I agree ] (]) 11:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@]
			*:if this discussion is only about mentioning his characterisations as Oligarch and not if he in fact is an Oligarch, then the difference is the reception. there are a lot of of rich people who are not characterized as Oligarch by scientists and influential public persons in multiple states across the globe
			*:hth ] (]) 18:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

			* '''Support''' as per my comment above.—] (]) ({{nowrap\|{{}}]{{nowrap\|}}}} me!) 12:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

			*'''Support''', ] applies, doubt any reliable source contests it. Some academic sources:
			:* : {{tq\|By supporting the Reddit crowd, Musk performed a remarkable persona in-between his elite status as one of the tech oligarchs, at that time the world’s richest person, and his support of the populist cause against the routinized and supposedly immoral establishment.}}
			:*
			:* : {{tq\|Yet the oversize personality of figures such as Musk and the clear trend towards the oligarchization of near-Earth space settlement…}}
			:* : {{tq\|On the question of Khan, it seems likelier that he’ll take his cues from an oligarch like Musk than from his own vice president.}}
			:*
			:] (]) 13:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Zelinsky 2024 is dated within the GameStop short squeeze. Allcorn 2023 has an indirect association between Musk and oligarchy through X, and I would be hesitant to use it if there are better references. Waller 2024 might be acceptable—though oligarchization is in quotes—but I question if space colonization is the sector that most who claim Musk is an oligarch would identify their claims with. Lipsitz 2024 is an opinion article. Kampmark 2024 mentions Musk being a "tech oligarch" in passing and does not elaborate on that much, analysis that is absent from most of these articles and would greatly strengthen them. <span style="font-family: monospace;">] (he/him)</span> 22:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@]
			:::does that mean oppose or support? ] (]) 22:53, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::It doesn't mean either, and that is not relevant to my comment. <span style="font-family: monospace;">] (he/him)</span> 22:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Strongly oppose''' While I personally find it very interesting that the "oligarch" rhetoric ramped up as soon as Musk aligned himself with Trump's campaign, outside of that tidbit Musk's influence on the US government is being greatly exaggerated and this push to label him as an oligarch feels blatantly partisan.
			:Per ]'s comments above, which "monopolistic tactics" are being used to "dominate" an industry? Which industry? How much political power does Musk actually, legally possess? Even if he does possess political power in some way, how is he using it to promote his own interests and thereby exacerbating income inequality and corruption? Which of his businesses are "intensively" coordinating their activities?
			:Labeling a living person as an "oligarch" is a serious step and should only be taken if there is abundant proof, not just a relatively small collection of highly opinionated political commentators who have spent most of the last decade assigning derogatory titles to people who disagree with them politically. ] (]) 14:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::The FT is probably the best source we could have, hence why it’s £40 a month. See , I can’t access it but that’ll answer most of your questions ] (]) 15:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::Does the monthly cost of a source indicate its quality? I can't access it either, so unless someone who has a subscription can provide some quotes from the article for us to analyze it's not very useful. ] (]) 15:30, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::It’s useful in that a highly reputable source supports the nom, I used to have access to it, but agreed quotes would be very welcome ] (]) 16:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::A plain text version of the article's body is available at https://pastebin.com/wKTThszJ.
			:::::"First, oligarchs are not simply tycoons. The latter are rich business people who may not have any political power. Lingelbach told me that Elon Musk went from tycoon to oligarch when he bought Twitter last year. The social media company, now renamed X, shapes opinion on events from Ukraine to Israel — often by platforming falsehoods. Today, adds Lingelbach, "Musk is one of the five or 10 most consequential oligarchs in our world."
			:::::] (]) 18:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Okay so in that article, the person referring to Elon Musk as an "oligarch", David Lingelbach, just so happens to be the author of the new book the article is entirely about? The article that even states that the definition of oligarch has been "reworked" by the two authors of said book, in order to accommodate the actions of people like Musk? ] (]) 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::{{U\|Big Thumpus}} & {{U\|Kowal2701}} - here is an that is accessible.]] 19:03, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Thank you for this ] (]) 20:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@] I am not advocating that we "label" Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one by ''some academics and politicians'' in the lead. ] (]) 18:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::@] To clarify, I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.
			::''Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.''
			::I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" ] (]) 17:54, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::I appreciate the clarification but I still '''oppose''' as the opinion of a few politically biased commentators - or at the very least, commentators who may hold negative personal opinions of Musk - is not appropriate for an encyclopedia and certainly not for the lead of an article about a living person. If, say, history rolls on and it turns out in several years that Musk does in fact end up using any political power he might gain to enrich himself, increase corruption, etc. then it would be fine to expand the article. Doing so out of pure speculation before the fact gives the appearance of mud-slinging at the very least. ] (]) 19:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::@]
			::::" a few politically biased commentators" are politicians and scientists from multiple nations around the world. it should of course be expanded in the article ...but still it should be mentioned in the introduction otherwise the article's introduction could seem Like Cherry picked favorable facts about his life.
			::::] (]) 16:41, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::They aren't favorable facts, they're just facts. That he is an oligarch is not a fact; it is the opinion of people who just so happen to also oppose him politically. Not at all appropriate for the introduction, at the very least. ] (]) 16:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::::That he is an oligarch ''is'' a fact, even if those who support him politically dislike the label. What else can you call a man who spent $200 million supporting Trump's campaign ''on top of'' buying out the world's largest social media platform to censor his critics and platform his political allies? For god's sake, ! ] (]) 22:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I could not agree more with this positioning. ] (]) 00:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' per ] and rushing this to a RFC after ] shows a fundamental misunderstanding of ]. Some time needs to pass before we can have a real conversation about this topic. Musk and Trump's current association is being sensationalized and what that means is mostly a lot of speculation for which it appears some of the arguments above have decided to indulge. We do not have a ]. This is a biography, not a ] article. ] (]) 14:48, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@] Just as a clarification, I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.
			*:''Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.''
			*:I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" ] (]) 17:54, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::Your clarification doesn't change my argument. People engaging in name calling and speculaction falls considerably short of justification for inclusion here. ] (]) 22:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

			:<s>'''Oppose''' oligarch, as the lead of our article on ] states that it's rule by the few, which I don't think really applies here. I would '''Support''' plutocrat.</s> '''Support''' after clarification from nom ] (]) 16:13, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::Regardless of whether or not it applies, he has been described as an oligarch by academics and experts such as Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, and Fiona Hill. I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.
			::''Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.''
			::I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" ] (]) 17:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::@] ] (]) 17:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			::::Thank you. I've changed my comment. ] (]) 17:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' adding it to the lead. The term "oligarch" isn't featured significantly enough in the article body (see ]) or in reliable sources (see ]) to include in the lead in my opinion. Doing a keyword search on the article's current references, I found 336 sources containing the word "billionaire" and 9 containing the word "oligarch". – ] 19:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:Yep. We should add that he's been called an oligarch, and there's quite a few reliable sources to back that up, but it shouldn't be added in the lead. Maybe adding it in the public perception section would be better? ] (]) 16:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::While I still oppose the idea of adding "oligarch" generally, I believe this is the first inclusion idea that could be argued as an appropriate use of ] and ]. ] (]) 16:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::That would work for me although we seem to have a general consensus not to include now. Thanks ] ] (]) 17:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' inclusion in the lead. This seems like basically just unnecessary name-calling. —⁠ ⁠] (]) 23:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' adding this in the lead, per Anne drew and BarrelProof. It ''might'' just about be ] as a single sentence in the politics section of the body, though note that wording such as "''some'' academics and politicians" is discouraged by ]. ] (]) 07:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' A sentence is ] in the lede if it summarizes the body, and a sentence is allowed an exception to ] if it is used in lede and if it summarizes the body. It does not summarize the body, failing both principles. ] (]) 09:32, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Despite what the bias news media calls him, be it oligarch or president Musk, he is neither by any definition of the words. ] 10:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:I agree, primarily because his influence has broad populist appeal. At this point, he is effectively a businessman and politician. ] (]) 11:13, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:@]
			*:the discussion is currently not about if he '''is''' Oligarch or not but if it should be '''mentioned''' in the introduction that someone people publicly state that '''they see him this way'''.
			*:i also got this wrong the first time are you aware of the distinction?
			*:hth ] (]) 16:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::And some in the media call others dictators, or compare those they don't like to Hitler. We don't put that in their articles. We don't list everything anyone ever said about someone in their articles. ] 18:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

			*'''Support''' I found ]'s line of reasoning especially persuasive. ] (]) 16:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

			:'''Oppose''' The term oligarch isn't used much in America, it is a Russian thing and therefore it isn't clear what it means. But he can't be an oligarch in that sense because Trump isn't in power yet. Most of the sources are political opponents of Elon and not reliable. Kruger is an ''economist'' not a ''political scientist''. Here he is acting as a pundit. I am troubled about the appeal to authority based on his so-called "Nobel Prize", because it is not relevant. Using the definition of one scholar to decide if Trump is an oligarch is SYNTH. ] (]) 17:14, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			::I also oppose "using the definition of one scholar to decide if" Musk or anyone else is an oligarch. The RfC asked whether or not a brief sentence explaining that prominent academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an oligarch should be included in the lead. ] (]) 04:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Oppose''' - too soon. Also does not meet traditional definition of oligarch, seems like tech oligarch is a new label.
			:Not sure it'll last. ] (]) 18:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			:'''Support''' - We have all been following the recent events and know that the way he has used his fortune during the elections is why he was appointed to join the Department of Government Efficiency, people are just in denial about it at this point.
			:In the future, should US politics remain as they are, expect more billionaires to join this and similar parallel government agencies where their voices are louder than those of the public. ] (]) 12:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Support.''' Mentioning this in the lead section of the article seems appropriate, as it is backed by multiple credible sources that explicitly describe the individual as an American oligarch. The term ''oligarch'' is not exclusive to the post-Soviet context but has been applied in broader political and academic discourse to denote individuals wielding outsized influence on government, media, and public affairs and opinion due to their financial leverage. This individual's substantial influence over key industries, public discourse with privately owned social media platforms, recently policymaking, and involvement in multiple countries' elections headings aligns with this characterization. Adding this description provides important encyclopedic context for his societal role without violating ], as it reflects notable, sourced opinions rather than fringe perspectives. While Misplaced Pages maintains a neutral point of view, accurately labeling such influence with correct term seems necessary. ] (]) 19:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Oppose''' While we do describe some people as oligarchs (''See eg.'': ], ], ], etc.), there is not enough here to reliably define Elon as an oligarch. However, the bar set by some here is much higher than it should be - if there is some reliable, peer-reviewed research defining Elon as an oligarch, and enough reliable reporting, then I believe the bar is met (and it isn't as far off as some here indicate). This isn't a matter of gossip, being news media, name calling, or about helping a reader understand the article, this is about the reliability of the claim that Elon is an oligarch and whether it is a defining characteristic of the person. Here, it is not - for now. ] 23:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The RfC asked whether or not a variation of the following sentence should be included: Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.
			::The discussion is not about categorizing Musk as an oligarch. ] (]) 23:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The same logic applies whether he is being categorized as an oligarch or inserting your sentence in the led as far as I am concerned. I.e., if there was a hypothetical list of American oligarchs, then Elon would need to belong in that category to call him an oligarch in the led.
			:::Otherwise, the current stasis of the article is sufficient in the public perception section. ] 02:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Support''' as per reasons stated by other editors. ] (]) 08:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:This s kind of like asking whether or not we should add that several media outlets have deemed him “shadow vice president” (I.e The Guardian). ] (]) 19:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Support''' - If he weren't an American businessman he'd already be called an oligarch and it wouldn't be remotely controversial. The definition fits and the people labeling him as such are prominent enough. Many of the opposing comments implicitly rely on American exceptionalism. If this RFC fails I think it will be worth revisiting as Musk's role in the Trump admin becomes more clear ] (]) 23:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Oppose''' per ] ] (]) 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Strong support''': According to Oxford, the definition of an oligarch is "a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence". Musk ticks of everything here. He's the richest man on earth, with almost half a trillion dollars, and most importantly, he indeed has a great deal of political influence. First of all, he controls one of the world's most popular social media platforms, Twitter, which he has repeatedly used as a tool to promote Trump in the 2024 election, according to countless reliable sources(NBC: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/elon-musk-turned-x-trump-echo-chamber-rcna174321, CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/13/tech/elon-musk-donald-trump-x/index.html, NPR: https://www.npr.org/2024/10/22/nx-s1-5156184/elon-musk-trump-election-x-twitter). According to Al Jazeera (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/11/7/the-elon-musk-effect-how-donald-trump-gained-from-billionaires-support), Musk played a big role in Trump's reelection, taking not just Twitter, but also his sizeable donations, being one of the largest individual donor to the Trump campaign. His recent attempt to not let the government shutdown bill to pass, showed his direct attempt to leverage his wealth and influence in politics, which will only increase once the Trump Administration kicks in from Jan 20, and Musk heads DOGE. This Vox article (https://www.vox.com/money/387348/elon-musk-trump-president-billionaire-oligarchy) directly analyzes and calls out Musk's oligarch status.
			] (]) 11:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

			So how is his status going now MAGA are telling him to eff off? ] (]) 18:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' — Taking a look at the six references—a number that automatically raises questions:
			** The first reference is to ''Business Insider'', which is not a reliable source nor an unreliable source per ]. The ''Insider'' source links to an opinion article written by Paul Krugman, which might suffice here if Krugman were a qualified individual to make the claim that "petulant oligarchs rule our world"; having read Krugman's article prior to this discussion, one criticism I had of it was that it did not sufficiently associate wealth to power. I re-read it and came to the same conclusion, though I am sure that if it were written recently that Krugman could point to the debt ceiling fiasco. Still, this is not a particularly effective reference.
			** The second reference is to ''Barron's'', which has no reliability at ], though it was syndicated from AFP, which would make it generally reliable to use. The AFP article cites a tweet from Robert Reich. Again, the issues with the Krugman reference persist. Reich is not qualified to make the claim that Musk is an oligarch. By the time the article was written—when Twitter had named Musk to its board—Musk had a minimal political influence that primarily benefited his companies, such as in February 2015.
			** The third reference is to ''The Hill'', which is generally reliable per ], and from October. The article cites Fiona Hill, but doesn't specifically quote her on claiming that Musk is an oligarch, but rather makes that conclusion from her statements. I continue to be skeptical of who is making these claims, though I suppose this could suffice if necessary.
			** The fourth reference is to ''The Atlantic'', a generally reliable source, and from last week. Ali Breland makes the claim that Musk is an "information oligarch", a term he borrows from Shoshana Zuboff in the ''Financial Times''. However, because the term is effectively a neologism, it can't be given the same weight as "oligarch" because it implicitly requires a suffix that is not widely applied as a subset of oligarchs. If it was, then Musk would be known as an information oligarch, not a general oligarch.
			** The fifth reference is a duplicate of the second.
			** The sixth reference is to ''Slate'', which is no longer present at WP:RSP but is generally reliable regardless. The article is an interview with Jeffrey Winters, who is a political scientist and would be qualified to claim that Musk is an oligarch.
			** The seventh reference is to ''Newsweek'', which should not be used in Trump-related articles per ] and ]; the criticisms I have for ''Newsweek'' are elaborated in the former and which I recommend reading. Fortunately, the article is relatively acceptable given that it cites Bernie Sanders; unfortunately, it cites a ''politician'', who is clearly not qualified to make this claim.
			:In all, there are only one or two usable references here. Six is a remarkably low number for a viewpoint that is not in the majority. For instance, ] cites thirteen references to claim it is a far-right website, with many of those being scholarly articles. Very few newspapers, if any, have ''independently'' made the association between Musk and oligarchy largely because scholars in this field often look at macropolitics with an examination of macroentities, i.e. institutions such as the banking sector. As for the statement in question, in what ways does Musk wield "considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse"? At a base level, many of the references included are not even dated to this year, and the ones that are do not make that connection, save for the ''Slate'' interview. Musk does not have influence over government policy—as the , industry—given that the Department of Government Efficiency has not even been formed, or public discourse—a concept I would find it difficult to qualify to begin with. <span style="font-family: monospace;">] (he/him)</span> 22:37, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
			*'''Strongly oppose''': If you consider for a moment the hundreds of thousands of articles and media attention given to Elon Musk, and then you consider the number of those sources that call him an oligarch, you simply cannot make a case for ] period, ''let alone in the lead.'' I'm actually very concerned we're considering this idea at all. As a reminder from the policy ] and its subsidiary ], {{tq\|For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary.}} I understand the motivation, seeing as some sources do present the label, but this opinion is ] and absolutely does not belong in this ], which, by nature of the WP Policy, should err on the side of caution when presenting subjects with labels like this. ] (]) 00:51, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:I understand your reasoning. Just to clarify, however, the RfC proposed including a brief sentence explaining that prominent individuals have characterized him as an oligarch. It did not propose to "present" Musk with this label. ] (]) 04:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' — Elon has only recently obtained any form of political influence, and with someone who isn't even president yet! Under the current administration he was largely shunned (not even invited to the Whitehouse for an EV summit!!) So, ] and ]. Not to mention the common understanding of the term "Oligarch" as someone having undue influence in countries where power is highly concentrated, would be a stretch in US politics.] (]) 13:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:It wouldn't be a stretch in US politics honestly. Most industries and sectors have monopolies by a small number of corporations, and both of the two main political parties have a lot of the same corporate donors. Someone who almost got the government to shut down by using his wealth and influence to Veto a bill, when not even being in office or elected in any way, as Musk recently did, even before the Trump Administration has formed, is a clear sign of oligarchic use of power. Also, quite a few reliable sources state Musk to be a oligarch or similar to an oligarch, so it should definitely be added in the article ] (]) 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::With all due respect, I think your facts of that situation are a little tainted. He didn't use his "wealth" to veto that bill. Himself and Vivek made people aware of the contents of the bill (1600 pages of it) and that it was trying to be pushed through congress at the last minute (not even giving senators a chance to read it) and congress itself killed the bill and replaced it with 116 page bill. That is not oligarchs abusing power, that my friend is democracy. ] (]) 06:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' — Name-calling is weird. Do we need to mention that ] is called "the ]" in the lede of his article just because pop up when we google it? No! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*:Oligarch is a word that describes, " a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence ." Describing Musk as an oligarch is not a form of name calling. ] (]) 04:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			*::Not per most reliable dictionary definitions. ] (]) 18:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:suppose we call every rich dude who speaks with Drumpf last an oligarch? Since the president is notorious for having being swayed by the last fellow whom he speaks with on any given subject. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 17:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			::@] no, please read the discussion or the article ] (]) 22:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::In discussions such as these, I cannot help but notice a pattern. there are two sides. One side shares their thoughts, then the other side shares their thoughts. One side of the discussion cannot bear to let the opinions of the other ''just exist'' as they are and '''everyone''' on the other side has every particular of their two sentences of two cents ]ed. I don't understand why this helps any decisions to be made. Each side must have the merits of their arguments assessed by a closer. If one side's argument is garbage, a closer doesn't need the help of literally everyone in their Majesty's most Loyal Opposition in making this be known. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 22:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' — I don't think it adds to the readers knowledge of the subject to use the word oligarch. The word could be stretched to fit around Musk but at the risk of subverting the current meaning. If we use this for Musk we must surely also use it for Gates and Bloomberg (which we don't) and so many more. It does seem that one of the criteria that is being used here is the association with Trump. That's not a reason to label Musk an oligarch.] (]) 19:13, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:The characterization of oligarch must be done so for Bill Gates, George Soros, Michael Blooomberg, and Judith Faulkner. Calling only the billionaires who supported Trump oligarchs ignores the Corporatism present in the Democrat party. Leftists are well aware of this fact and call it out, but through a Blue vs. Red lens, people who only call out Musk are doing so with the intention of steering people into the arms of Corporate Democrats instead of letting people learn of the bigger picture. When the pro-Democrats side refuses to accept criticism and only points it at the right, people become reformists and either call out partisanship behaviour OR they choose to go the anti-bi-partisanship route. ] (]) 18:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''', does not help readers, and is mentioned just once in the body, in the literal last paragraph. ] (]) 09:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' By my count, the lead is already at 565 words. The ] suggests that a well-written lead is 250–400 words. That sets a high bar for adding information to the lead. If we had a 400-word paragraph in the article body on Musk's characterization as an oligarch, then adding this to the lead would be ]. But adding a sentence to the lead about a perspective that otherwise only gets one sentence in the article is undue weight. In a lead that is already so long, if we can't write a substantial paragraph about a particular viewpoint, it probably doesn't belong in the lead. ] (<span style="color:gray">he/him</span> • ]) 19:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:While policy says 400, lots of leads in featured articles have 700+ ] (]) 19:47, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:''The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the complexity of the subject and development of the article.'' There is no set policy on 400 words limit of the lead section. ] (]) 21:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

			==RFC on family's wealth==
			<!-- ] 20:01, 6 February 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil\|1738872068}}
			{{rfc\|bio\|rfcid=357C2FB}}

			Should we remove "A member of the wealthy South African Musk family"

			Yes or No ] (]) 19:01, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

			:'''Oppose''' ] (]) 11:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Support removal - the cited article is ambiguously sourced and contradicts facts in the more credible Isaacson biography. Because of the inadequate support, the statement appears biased and makes the entire article less credible. ] (]) 20:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Change''': Remove the word wealthy as it suggests that they are notably wealthy. He is but they are not. ] (]) 01:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

			For context, it's this part of the lead: "A member of the wealthy South African Musk family, Musk was born in Pretoria..." Here's the previous discussion back in ] and this was the new wording from June to November: ] (]) 19:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

			* '''Oppose removal.''' As noted, the topic was recently discussed at length, and the general language in use has been shown to be well sourced. ] (]) 02:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support removal''' of the ] emphasis on the family's wealth. While they were certainly not poor, the current wording strongly suggests that the Musk family was ''notably wealthy'' at the time of Elon's birth, which is not borne out by sources. ] (]) 06:57, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support removal''' {{sbb}} per {{u\|Rosbif73}} and for lack of ]. If sufficient ] can be provided that describes "the wealthy South African Musk family", then I would reconsider. --] (]) 15:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{Reply\|David Tornheim}} it is treated as important context in most longer pieces, for example The Independent: "Mr Musk’s journey to such unimaginable wealth started from a position of financial privilege" and the NYT "Interviews with relatives and former classmates reveal an upbringing in elite, segregated white communities that were littered with anti-Black government propaganda, and detached from the atrocities that white political leaders inflicted on the Black majority." India Today "But he, by all means, was never poor. Neither was his family... But he did not acknowledge the part about his upbringing in a rich family." ] (]) 16:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{re\|Horse Eye's Back}} Please provide links to the articles. I doubt I can read the NYT's article because of pay-wall. If you know of a free copy of the NYT article, I would look at it there. --] (]) 16:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I'm sure you can find the articles from what I've provided. I would suggest the internet archive for accessing non-paywalled versions of the NYT ] (]) 17:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose removal''', we have plenty of sources for this... The Musks were wealthy even for a white family and in Apartheid South Africa even the poorest white families were relatively wealthy. ] (]) 16:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:There's plenty of sources saying the family was wealthy when Elon was born in 1971? Can you provide them? The earliest I've seen them mentioned as wealthy is the mid 1980s. ] (]) 15:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Unless you're suggesting that the Musk family was of a different race prior to the 1980s they were at least relatively wealthy, South Africa was a racially segregated society in which whites occupied a position of economic and social privilege. This is what the sources say, they treat the fact that Musk being born white under an apartheid regime as important context. ] (]) 16:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Nobody is disputing that the family was part of a privileged group within South African society at that time. But the current wording suggests that the family was ''notably wealthy'' at the time of Elon's birth, which is not borne out by sources. For that matter, it also implies that the family was itself a notable entity within that society, which again is not borne out by sources. In short, we are giving ] status to what was a relatively ordinary white family in that racially segregated society. ] (]) 10:03, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::It doesn't say notably wealthy, it suggest that his family's position of privilage in the context of Musk's bio which is how the sources treat it. None of the sources say that they were a relatively ordinary white family, remember that his mother was already notable when Musk was born (and his dad was borderline notable)... Which means that the family was a notable entity entity within that society when he was born. ] (]) 17:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::One or two notable members does not make a family a notable entity in its own right, per ]. The ] or the ] have long been notable, the Musk family was not in 1971. And I maintain that the current wording unduly emphasises a state of wealth at the time of Elon's birth that is totally unsourced. ] (]) 16:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::This isn't an argument about whether the family was a notable entity in its own right (it literally does not matter either way). If you think we go beyond the sources that would be easy to demonstrate, and a BLP bio to boot so you would be required to remove it instantly without waiting for consensus... So apparently you either don't believe what you are saying or don't believe in following BLP. ] (]) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support removal''' from lead. This is covered sufficiently in the body and isn't notable enough to justify inclusion into the lead of the article. This isn't a source issue. ] says the {{tq\|lead section should summarise with due weight the life and works of the person.}} Musk is notable for his career and work. The details about his early life are fine in the body. ] (]) 18:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose'''. Sourced and relevant. ] <small>(])</small> 18:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support removal''' from LEAD.] (]) 08:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' removal; we could always tweak the wording slightly, but his wealthy background is extremely well-sourced and treated as a major part of his biography in the sources, so it belongs in the lead. See eg. <ref>{{cite book\|first1=Manoj\|last1=Dole\|title=Great Businessman in the World\|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZVukEAAAQBAJ&dq\|publisher=Manoj Dole\|via=Google Books\|pp=27\|quote=The Musk family was wealthy in his youth.}}</ref><ref>{{cite web\|accessdate=2025-01-06\|title=How Elon Musk made his money - from emeralds to SpaceX and Tesla\|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/space/elon-musk-made-money-rich-b2212599.html\|date=28 October 2022\|website=The Independent\|quote=Mr Musk’s journey to such unimaginable wealth started from a position of financial privilege, albeit one of emotional abuse.}}</ref><ref>{{cite web\|accessdate=2025-01-06\|title=How Rich Has Elon Musk Been During Every Decade of His Life?\|url=https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rich-elon-musk-during-every-130036338.html\|website=finance.yahoo.com\|quote=Elon Musk was born in Pretoria, South Africa, in 1971. His family was very well-off, and he had a comfortable childhood.}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal\|first1=Charles J. Jr\|last1=Reid\|title=Two There Are That Rule the World: Private Power and Political Authority\|url=https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/usthomlj19&div=4&id=&page=\|journal=University of St. Thomas Law Journal\|date=2023\|pages=3\|volume=19\|quote=A native South African whose family had grown wealthy thanks to mining interests...}}</ref> It's also worth pointing out that Musk's denials have themselves been discussed and dismissed in high-quality sources - see eg. <ref>{{cite book\|first1=Carl\|last1=Rhodes\|title=Stinking Rich: The Four Myths of the Good Billionaire\|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=hwwLEQAAQBAJ\|publisher=Policy Press\|date=21 January 2025\|isbn=978-1-5292-3910-2\|via=Google Books\|pp=60-61\|quote=The relative privilege of his upbringing is clearly a sore point for Musk and obsessively denying it is all part of his need to assert his own heroic self-made status.}}</ref> --] (]) 21:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose removal''' per above comments, it's well sourced, and despite not being in the ]; it provides the necessary context as desired for the paragraph it is introducing in the lead, ie background. Additionally, this predominantly serves as a wikilink to the quasi-child article ], as thus per ], this link is beneficial in the lead. So the only question should be based on how we include it, rather than whether it is due for inclusion. While we could be regurgitating more of that article into the body, it naturally makes more sense to summarise in this article body, and ideally link in the lead also for convenience. This is similar to ] and ], that are also linked in the lead (noting that the views article summary here is awful and nowhere near a SUMMARY of the child article, but that's another topic). Finally, this is otherwise notable context in the lead as there is an entire standalone article that justifies the notability of the Musk family (re:linking child articles in lead sections), which he was born into. So on this basis, and setting aside the South African as a descriptor that I think we can all agree on, I don't believe there is a more notable description than "wealthy" at this point, per sources. ] (]) 12:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

			* '''Oppose''', the family someone was born into is important, and I think important enough to warrant a sentence fragment in a 5 paragraph lead. ] (]) 00:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose with qualifications''', this aspect of his biography is sufficiently notable to include, however the wording as it currently stands does give the impression that the family itself is notable outside of its relationship to Elon, which I do not believe is the case. I would perhaps support a rewrite to something along the lines of "Born into a wealthy family in South Africa". ] (]) 01:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support removal''' ''unless we can be more precise.'' So much of the argumentabove is of the ie in this context, highly relative. It appears to be established that compared to most black South Africans of the time, the Musks were extremely privileged, ''(as were most whites)'' but relative to a successful US physician/academic/politician or film actor, maybe much less so, maybe on a par?? Certainly they were not in the super-wealthy class of families which the present text somewhat implies. The father's profession itself or some more precise social-class term would be clearer than this very vague phrasing. Terms in the sources such as "a position of financial privilege" … "a comfortable childhood" … "The relative privilege of his upbringing" do equate to being far-from-poor, but they don't clearly equate to simple 'wealthy'. ] (]) 09:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I agree with @]. I think the term has to be defined better, these descriptions are all relative. The evidence points much more toward a middle class upbringing. Elons mom had to work 5 jobs to support her kids<ref>{{Cite web \|title= \|url=https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/elon-musks-mom-worked-5-jobs-to-raise-3-kids-after-her-divorce.html}}</ref> He went to public/hybrid schools not private schools. Wealthy white kids went to private schools <ref>{{Cite web \|title=Private Schools in South Africa \|url=https://thoughtleader.co.za/private-schools-reminders-of-white-supremacy/}}</ref> None of this points towards what is described in the article. ] (]) 15:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::The linked article does not say that all wealthy white kids went to private school, you're making that up. According to Elon's mom when they divorced in 1979 the family had "two homes, a yacht, a plane, five luxury cars, and a truck" which doesn't sound middle class at all even by American standards (I grew up in a wealthy area and having two homes, a plane, five luxury cars, and a truck put you in the upper tier even there). ] (]) 19:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::It's not made up, the article says this was the legacy of apartheid. But please share where the Mom says those things, I would agree if that was their level of wealth that takes it out of the middle class category. ] (]) 06:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::The article doesn't say that all wealthy white kids went to private school, either now or under apartheid. The claim is from her book A Woman Makes a Plan: Advice for a Lifetime of Adventure, Beauty, and Success. ] (]) 09:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Two homes, a plane and five luxury cars in 1979 is reasonably wealthy by most people's standards, sure, but says nothing about their wealth in 1971 when Elon was born. ] (]) 10:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::You are forgetting the yacht and truck... And you're going in circles, remember you're arguing against reliable sources which say that the family was wealthy (at least in a relative sense) so you need to actually provide one which says otherwise. Quibbling that they don't give an exact amount of wealth for the day of Musk's birth but only a general description of that era for the family is bordering on tendentious. ] (]) 20:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose removal''' - I would not object to a hypothetical minor rewording or restructuring, but the information is both well sourced and relevant to the article, so this information should be kept in one form or another. {{small\|(Don't take this !vote as arguing that we SHOULD reword it, just that I don't care about the specific wording as much as I care that the information is here)}} ] (]) 01:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose removal''' wealthy is defined relative to the society/country one grows up in. It’s effectively a euphemism for social class, and this one word is very informative to the reader in summarising the early life section, and effectively says he had good opportunities available to him. I’m not opposed to changing it to something more obviously relative or something that captures what I’ve said better but I can’t think of anything except explicitly stating their class if sources agree. ] (]) 19:48, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose removal''' – Well-sourced in body of article and very relevant to understanding the rest of Musk's career. <span style="font-family:'Courier New'">''' – ]'''<sub>(]•])</sub></span> 01:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

			====Refs====
			{{reflist-talk}}

			===Discussion===

			Before we can even discuss whether this is worthy of inclusion in the lead, it needs to be sourced right? Are there any sources stating the Musk family was wealthy when Elon was born? ] (]) 19:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			:yes here https://www.independent.co.uk/space/elon-musk-made-money-rich-b2212599.html "We were very wealthy. We had so much money at times we couldn't even close our safe," --] (]) 23:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That's referring to the mid 1980s, Elon was born in 1971. ] (]) 06:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/elon-musks-mom-worked-5-jobs-to-raise-3-kids-after-her-divorce.html I don’t think a mom working five jobs to support her family describes a wealthy upbringing. ] (]) 06:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::https://dailyinvestor.com/technology/42510/elon-musk-sets-record-straight-about-south-african-upbringing/ the wealthy upbringing narrative is debunked here. He went to public school in South Africa. Rich families send their kids to private schools in SA because of the difference in the quality of education between public and private. ] (]) 06:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::: This is a misunderstanding of the South African educational context... There were historically very few fully private schools in South Africa with most elite schools following a hybrid model where they received state funds, had boarding students, had selective admissions, were white only, and charged tuition. Musk went to such a hybrid school, ]. These are not distinguishable from private schools in the American context and certainly indicated a relatively high standard of living for the Musks even among comparable white families. ] (]) 16:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I know this is a relative assessment and very open to interpretation, but he only transferred to that school after the bullying that nearly killed him at ], a state run public school, not a hybrid and certainly not for the wealthy. ] (]) 08:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Bryanston High School is also a hybrid, it charges tuition and has selective admissions... It is certainly for the wealthy, and whites only at that time in history. ] (]) 17:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I am not denying what you say, you seem to have more knowledge of these things than me, but do you have evidence of these claims you are making? ] (]) 05:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Here is the tuition fee schedule for Bryanston High School and for Pretoria Boys High . ] (]) 16:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::https://www.expatica.com/za/education/children-education/education-in-south-africa-803205/ Do you know that all public schools in South Africa are a hybrid system? Which means Bryanston and Pretoria Boys High are normal public schools, does it not?. ] (]) 06:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::That is not what the linked article says, it says that schools are currently divided into five quintiles by catchment area income with the schools in the top two quintiles able to charge school fees. You're also overlooking the apartheid aspect of it, today these are integrated schools but then only students from privileged racial classes could apply. A school where admissions is directly racially determined is not a normal public school however else you want to cut the pie. ] (]) 16:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			"Mr Musk’s journey to such unimaginable wealth started from a position of financial privilege, albeit one of emotional abuse." ] ] (]) 15:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			"Elon Musk was born in Pretoria, South Africa, in 1971. His family was very well-off, and he had a comfortable childhood." ]. ] (]) 16:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

			:Thanks for the sourcing, ]. Do you oppose the removal from the lead paragraph? ] (]) 16:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Based on the above a rewrite would be better. ] (]) 17:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Bias regarding Mr. Musk's views ==

			The article states the following --> He has been <u>criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements</u>, including COVID-19 misinformation, affirming antisemitic and transphobic comments, and promoting conspiracy theories.

			The statement is biased in that it avers his comments and actions actually are unscientific and misleading. In truth, Mr. Musk and millions of others do not agree with that perspective. It would not be biased to say the he has been criticized for alleged unscientific and misleading statements.


			Here is Misplaced Pages's own policy on points of view.

			Misplaced Pages's policy on a neutral point of view, articles must represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, <u>without editorial bias</u>,
	== '''Frequently asked questions''' ==
			] (]) 23:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	<!--Made this section because a lot of the requestor are from mobile, where the FAQ template is absolutely useless.-->

	<!-- START PIN -->{{Pin message\|}}<!-- ] 16:17, 13 March 2032 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil\|1962807420}}<!-- END PIN -->
			:Misplaced Pages articles should reflect what reliable sources have to say on a subject. The fact that "millions" disagree is not relevant. It would be relevant, however, if you can show that some some sources have been given ]. best wishes ] (]) 23:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{Clear}}
			:I don't get it. How is ] "unscientific"? What scientific claims does it make? ] (]) 01:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{Talk:Elon Musk/FAQ}}
			::Well we would need to see examples, but one might be they are genetically inferior. But I agree general hatred of Jews is not science. ] (]) 10:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think it's a good question, and agree with @]'s response. I wonder if the grammar of the sentence is a bit confusing? Is it supposed to mean.. "He has been criticized for: making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation; affirming antisemitic and transphobic comments; and promoting conspiracy theories."? I think whatever the meaning, a verb is needed before "COVID-19 misinformation", e.g. "spreading" ] (]) 13:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I agree that adding "alleged" or some variation would keep this more in line with ] ] (]) 01:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Yes, and there's factually nothing scientific about this. The statement is already neutral ] (]) 11:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

			:I see no bias in the statement. It says what he has been criticized for, and it is a fact that that criticism has been made. If anything, the statement is mild. In recent days, he has been criticized by numerous world leaders for his overt interference in other countries' political processes. ] (]) 14:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Lead improvements ==
			:This language was the result of a previous Talk page discussion. If editors take issue with the language, please refer to the arguments therein first. ] (]) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The bias in this article is unreal. It actually works as a hit piece. The purpose is to paint Mr. Musk in a negative light using emotionally loaded, and sensationalized verbiage. However some will not see that, as it is a reflection of their own subjective thoughts towards Musk. ] (]) 20:59, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::People can claim anything is biased. Saying something is biased doesn't actually mean much at all. Especially on Misplaced Pages where arguments are centered around policies and guidelines, and not if you feel like something is "biased". ] (]) 04:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::People can claim anything is unbiased. Saying something is unbiased doesn't actually mean much at all. Especially on Misplaced Pages where arguments are centered around policies and guidelines, and not if you feel like something is "unbiased." See how that works? ] (]) 02:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::All writings reflect their authors' biases, and Misplaced Pages is no exception. Asserting otherwise is misguided. Policies and guidelines are often ] to promote consensus. ] (]) 05:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I can agree there are issues of neutrality in places, I have a Talk discussion open on one such paragraph. I would like evidence for what supporter's consider to be his most positive characteristics/philosophies, and I think examples of evidence might help this discussion be more constructive. If you have any, please share. I agree with the sentiment of other responses - it doesn't matter what we think is biased or what view we have of Musk or guess that millions of people think, any statement needs a robust evidence source - I have been struggling to find that from the positive point of view. ] (]) 13:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Our job is easy. We don't look for a positive or negative view. We don't make such evaluations. We publish what reliable sources say. ] (]) 13:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::The lead specifically says views are polarised. That means people have positive and negative views of Musk. Since the paragraph only lists criticisms, it is not neutral. It is good editorial practice to represent the range of views. In the kindest judgement this means editors have not come across sources that provide positive viewpoints. I am very happy to assume that, but in this age of algorithm control of search results, the assumption that the sources you come across can be representative does not seem reliable. I would say robust editing involves one to look for a range of resources that represent the apparent range of opinion. ] (]) 14:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::We always look at a range of sources. But the sources must be reliable. If you look at unreliable sources, you can find many that say the Earth is flat. And 15-20% of millennials believe this. We are not going to add that possibility to satisfy those readers. ] (]) 14:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I agree the sources must be reliable. I requested robust evidence. I consider reliability to a component of robustness. ] (]) 14:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::You can request sources, but evidence is irrelevant because we don't do original research. ] (]) 20:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::] covers Musk’s transformative first-principles engineering philosophy, hands-on leadership, and customer-focused innovation. It highlights his emphasis on speed, execution, and challenging the status quo, driving ambitious goals like Mars colonization and electric vehicles. Musk's frugality, resilience, relentless work ethic, autodidacticism and appetite for risk allow him to lead across industries. His provocative, direct communication style, creativity, and humor inspire and challenge his teams. ] (]) 13:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Most people (if not all of them) think that they alone are good judges of "neutrality". They are also frequently wrong. One single book by an author whose whole personal brand is "biographies of geniuses" does not constitute the a rebuttal to the mountains of less-biased sources that support how the article is currently written. ] (]) 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*If the highest-quality sources describe his statements as unscientific and misleading, then we have to reflect that statement. Inserting "alleged" or the like would be a violation of ] as well as violating ]'s requirement to treat unequivocal facts as facts. It's especially important here because many of his positions may be scientifically ]. The fact that some random people on the street might disagree doesn't change things - we decide truth based on the ''best available'' sources (which, especially for scientific matters, means ones by academic experts.) This is no different than our articles on, for instance, climate change or vaccines - plenty of people believe in fringe positions on those things, but our articles have to present the scientific consensus as fact. It is not editorial bias to do that - it is accurately summarizing the sources. In fact, it would be editorial bias to look at those sources and then say "well some people might not like this, so let's cram an 'alleged' in front of it that isn't in the sources." The {{tq\|editorial}} there is vital - it means that we cannot ''add bias ourselves''. The flipside of that is that we're not permitted to censor or downplay a clear consensus among the sources simply because an editor believes it to be biased, since that would be another form of editorial bias on our parts. --] (]) 21:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:See for example. We need a little more of the other side of the 'Polarisation' - or a little less of the negative side.
			*:''"Sen. John Fetterman (D-Pa.) offered praise for tech billionaire Elon Musk and his career on Thursday, while acknowledging they may not always on political issues.''
			*:''“I admire Mr. Musk. He’s been involved in very important parts of American society: AI, SpaceX and other kinds of things,” Fetterman told reporters on Capitol Hill in an interview Thursday.''
			*:''“Yes, he is on a different team, but that doesn’t make me an enemy,” he continued. “I don’t … automatically going to become a critic.”''
			*:''The Pennsylvania Democrat added, “It’s like, ‘Hey, he has made our economy and our nation better.’ And our politics are different, and I don’t agree with some of the things that he might say, but that doesn’t make him, like I said, an enemy.”"'' ] (]) 19:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

			== “Shadow Vice President” claims from media ==
	] I had posted my proposal here, and I have gained consensus. What do you want from me? ] (]) 04:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
	:I want us to discuss, develop a consensus, and most of all be civil. I'm all for improving the lead, just in a coherent and consensus-supported manner. ~ ]] 04:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
	::Well, please give feedback instead of just reverting. I think that the revised lead is good enough to replace the old lead, but we can have a chat together and make it better :) ] (]) 04:55, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
	:::As it stands, the current lead is somewhat of a mix of the status quo and your proposal. Could you make a bullet point list of what you want to change and we can discuss each one? ~ ]] 05:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
	::::Second. ] (]) 05:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
	:::::I want to make the lead more compact at Elon companies and mention public perception about Elon. ] (]) 05:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
	::::::I'm all for concision in the third paragraph as long as it still covers the basics. For example:
	::::::*{{tq\|Tesla Motors, Inc. (now Tesla, Inc.)}} --> Tesla
	::::::*{{tq\|eventually assuming the position of CEO in 2008}} --> becoming CEO in 2008
	::::::*I would also be fine removing the hyperloop mention from the lead. He didn't invent the concept or coin the term: he just talked about a lot in the early 2010s and never did anything with it.
	::::::In my opinion, the fourth paragraph already gives weight to the public recognition section, but my ears are open. ~ ]] 06:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::Alright, here it goes:
	:::::::: In 2002, Musk founded SpaceX, an ] manufacturer and space transport services company, and is its CEO and chief engineer. In 2004, he was an early investor in the electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla. He became its chairman and product architect and becoming CEO in 2008. In 2006, he helped create ], a solar energy company that was later acquired by Tesla and became ]. In 2015, he co-founded OpenAI, a nonprofit ] research company. In 2016, he co-founded Neuralink, a ] company focused on developing ], and he founded the Boring Company, a tunnel construction company. In 2022, Musk ] for $44 billion. He is the president of the philanthropic Musk Foundation.
	:::::::: Musk has made controversial statements regarding politics and technology, particularly on ]. As a result, he is a highly polarizing figure, being admired and detested by the public. He has also been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including spreading ], and for his legal dispute with a British caver who had advised him about the ]. In 2018, the ] (SEC) sued Musk for tweeting that he had secured funding for a private takeover of Tesla, which the SEC described as false. Musk stepped down as chairman of Tesla and paid a $20 million fine as part of a settlement agreement with the SEC.
	:::::::] (]) 13:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::@], @], is the lead ok now? ] (]) 10:03, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::The first paragraph here looks good except for:
	::::::::*"that was later acquired by Tesla" -- > Let's remove "later". It's redundant.
	::::::::*Let's put also before "the president of the philanthropic Musk Foundation" for flow.
	::::::::The second paragraph has some issues:
	::::::::*"As a result" : he is not polarizing just because of his statements. That's undue weight and just false. The current {{tq\|Musk has made controversial statements regarding politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, and is a highly polarizing figure.}} does it fine imo
	::::::::*"being admired and detested by the public" should be cut. It's redundant and repetitive. That's what "polarizing" means: some people like him and some don't.
	::::::::*"and for his legal dispute with a British caver who had advised him about the Tham Luang cave rescue" should not be lumped with "unscientific and misleading statements". There's nothing scientific about it. Calling somebody a pedo is a different thing from Musk spouting random crap on Twitter to grab headlines. Also why remove the mention of the submarine fiasco? That needs to be given weight.
	::::::::*"which the SEC described as false" is wordy fluff. Just say "falsely tweeting" or nothing at all.
	::::::::That's all. ~ ]] 17:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::<small>I admit the fourth paragraph isn't ideal and might be missing a few things. A little clunky. When I have the time, I'll propose a revised one. ~ ]] 17:34, 17 November 2022 (UTC)</small>

			Should we add that some Democrats and media outlets have called him a “shadow vice president” or “shadow vice president” under the Politics section? ] (]) 23:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::"falsely tweeting" as the tweet was indeed false. ] (]) 18:03, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::Agreed with all of your suggestions, so the revised lead would be:
	::::::::: In 2002, Musk founded SpaceX, an ] manufacturer and space transport services company, and is its CEO and chief engineer. In 2004, he was an early investor in the electric vehicle manufacturer Tesla. He became its chairman and product architect and becoming CEO in 2008. In 2006, he helped create ], a solar energy company that was acquired by Tesla and became ]. In 2015, he co-founded OpenAI, a nonprofit ] research company. In 2016, he co-founded Neuralink, a ] company focused on developing ], and he founded the Boring Company, a tunnel construction company. In 2022, Musk ] for $44 billion. He is also the president of the philanthropic Musk Foundation.
	::::::::: Musk has made controversial statements regarding politics and technology, particularly on ]. He is a highly polarizing figure and has been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including spreading ] and tweeting that he had secured funding for a private takeover of Tesla. The false Tesla takeover tweet has caused the ] to force Musk stepped down temporarily as chairman of Tesla and paid a $20 million fine. He has also been involved in a legal dispute with a British caver who had advised him about the ]. (I don't know how to add the submarine part)
	::::::::] (]) 14:18, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
	{{outdent}} I removed the part about the cave rescue from the last paragraph. It seems sort of out of place for that section and minor compared to everything else in that section. --] (]) 01:17, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
	*The lead presently says, “Musk has made controversial statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, and is a polarizing figure.” Per ], the word “controversial” is “subjective and vague”. But suppose we keep “controversial” in the lead. Who makes controversial statements and is not polarizing? I support removing the redundant phrase “and is a polarizing figure”.] (]) 16:14, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	*:] is a controversial figure but is not polarizing for the vast majority of people (the internet will tell you otherwise). However, Elon is both controversal and polarizing as there is vastly different views of him, swinging between admiration and detest. So I actually think we should keep "polarizing" and remove "controversal". ] (]) 04:00, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::One or the other ought to be removed, ]. “Musk has made statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, that have had a polarizing effect.” That would be fine, and implies the statements have been controversial. Alternatively: “Musk has made statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, that have contributed to making him a polarizing figure.”] (]) 21:49, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::This matter was brought up in another part of the Talk page already. No need to multiply discussions. 22:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC) ] (]) 22:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	{{od}}I have moved that other section to here as a subsection👇. These two proposals were not discussed in that other section:
	* “Musk has made statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, that have had a polarizing effect.”
	* “Musk has made statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, that have contributed to making him a polarizing figure.”<br>
	Either one is fine with me. Both versions comply with ] and avoid redundancy.] (]) 23:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

	:I ~~prefer~~ A ~~because it is shorter and more direct~~. ~~B is also fine for me.~~ ] (]) 02:10, 11 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:No, we should not. ] ] (]) 01:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:~~Last~~ I ~~checked,~~ ] ~~and~~ ~~myself~~ ~~took issue with such changes. Therefore~~, ~~the~~ ~~discussion~~ is ~~ongoing and the latest edit is unwarranted.~~		:NO, more Trivia. ] (]) 10:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:If ~~forced~~ ~~to,~~ I ~~could see B working.~~ ] (]) 22:57, 11 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		::NO. Biased media scandalmongering ] (]) 10:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It may (or may not) be notable that President-elect Donald Trump responded to these references on Dec. 22, when he said this about Musk: "But no, he's not gonna be president. That I can tell you. And I’m safe. You know why? He can’t be. He wasn’t born in this country." Or maybe that note, if it's worth mentioning anywhere, should go in the separate "Political activities of Elon Musk" article?
	::I’d be glad to change it to option which seems to have unanimous approval. The two options were proposed at 23:12 on 10 December, and I’m not aware such changes were presented earlier than that. In any event, it seems important that we not transgress ], and also not beat the reader over the head by saying stuff that is already implied. Option seems better because it doesn’t slap a label on him, but option would still be an improvement. Per ], “Rather than describing an individual using the subjective and vague term controversial, instead give readers information about relevant controversies. Make sure, as well, that reliable sources establish the existence of a controversy….”] (]) 02:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			:Anywhere, here's one story about Trump's comments:
	:::], the discussion about polarity is over here now apparently. ] (]) 04:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			: ] (]) 17:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Maybe it can be generalized as ] hints ''"Musk took business actions and made statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, that have had a polarizing effect."'' I'm not sure. The business actions that have caused polarization is mostly due to their political aspects anyway. In any regards, the number of contentious labels should be reduced ] (]) 08:35, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			::Sorry: "Anyway" not "Anywhere." ] (]) 21:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Or
			*It's something to consider eventually, but we should wait and see if there's ] coverage, especially once Trump is actually in office. --] (]) 21:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::"Musk has made polarizing statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, along with his business actions "
	:::Hmmmm. ] (]) 09:48, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

			== Improving neutrality of an introductory paragraph ==
	*I oppose both and think the status quo: '''Musk has made controversial statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, and is a polarizing figure.''' is the way to go. Musk is not polarizing simply because of statements. His actions have irked a lot of people as well. ~ ]] 05:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	*:That's a good idea. ] (]) 10:26, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	*::Have you seen mine? We can still reduce it and say the same. ] (]) 11:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	*:Second. ] (]) 15:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

			In my opinion, the current state of paragraph beginning "Musk's actions and expressed views have made him a polarizing figure...." does not meet my expectations of neutrality. It claims he is polarising but proceeds to describe only criticisms of him.
	===Pertinent sentence of BLP policy===
	The last paragraph of the lead says, “Musk has made controversial statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, and is a polarizing figure.” The propriety of this wording has been discussed at this talk page, but I would just like to also bring attention to this sentence of our ] policy: <b>{{tq\|“Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources. Instead use clear, direct language and let facts alone do the talking.”}}</b> In my view, the sentence in the last paragraph of the lead violates this part of our BLP policy. The problem could be easily fixed by writing instead: “Musk has made statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, that have had a polarizing effect.” Also keep in mind ].] (]) 19:49, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

			Below I propose a new version of the paragraph which attempts to improve neutrality using evidence:
	:It's worse than I thought. Because even if Elon Musk is a polarizing figure, he is also something else. You might say, yes, the lead calls him CEO, founder, etc., etc., but these are all formal roles. "Polarizing" in the phrase "polarizing figure" says or suggests something about his psychology, but the notion that his psychology is defined by one trait, or overwhelmingly defined by one trait such that no other trait deserves to be in the lead, is completely absurd, and breaks at least with ] and ] ] (]) 20:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			# of his polarising effect,
	::It says nothing about his psychology. ] (]) 21:47, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			# that public opinion of him is in flux
	:::But ''suggests'', yeah, at least ] (]) 22:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			# of what, I think, people like about him, i.e. libertarianism.
	*I tried to insert in-line attribution for the statement in the lead about being polarizing, but was reverted. In-line attribution wouldn’t solve the problem, but would ameliorate it.] (]) 21:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			I struggle to do point 3 full justice as it is not of my opinion, but I think it at least creates space for that to be made clear and robust in time.
	:*Yeah, because it's not necessary. Gain talk page consensus and stop edit warring. ~ ]] 22:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::For one, it is not only Vance:
	::https://dalquestnews.org/22614/commentary/opinion-why-is-elon-musk-so-polarizing/
	::https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/04/30/elon-musk-twitter-polarizing-conservatives-liberals/
	::https://www.forbes.com/sites/traversmark/2022/11/23/can-psychological-research-help-us-understand-elon-musks-polarizing-brand-of-leadership/
	::22:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC) ] (]) 22:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	QRep2020, your first source is explicitly labeled commentary and opinion. Your third source is a medical opinion of a psychologist who has evidently never met Musk, and moreover it does not use the redundant combination about being controversial and polarizing too (same for your second source). We cite a Washington Post article that says this:
	{{cquote\|He just decided to let much more of his personality loose on Twitter,” said Vance of Musk, “and to embrace this role as part philosopher, part troll.” “I think that’s complicated his life and complicated the stories around the businesses pretty dramatically,” Vance adds. “He’s become such a polarizing figure, almost this religious-type figure, where you either love him or hate him, and there doesn’t seem to be much room in between.”}}
	The last paragraph of the lead says the tweets have been controversial, and it also says they’re polarizing. This is redundant overkill. Moreover, we say he’s a polarizing figure in a general sense, whereas the cited source only suggests he’s a polarizing figure on Twitter.] (]) 22:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	], or rather if it picks cherries like a ''Turdus pilaris'']]
	:::You're cherry-picking a single source to support this weird slant. Check out the list of reliable sources above. ~ ]] 01:48, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Hey, thanks for your corncerns, @]
	::::You have, frankly, misunderstood ]
	::::''In the context of editing an article, cherrypicking, in a negative sense, means selecting information without including contradictory or significant qualifying information from the '''same source''' and consequently misrepresenting what the source says.
	::::''
	::::By the way, we can't break ] ] (]) 02:21, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Hey thanks for the clarity ], but I was using "cherry-picking" as a word and not in reference to the policy, hence why it wasn't linked. ~ ]] 02:50, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::], you seriously think the long blockquote in my last comment was cherry-picking? The body of this BLP only mentions “polarizing” once, when it says “Musk was described by Vance as very polarizing and ‘part philosopher, part troll’.” Therefore I quoted at length (not a snippet) from footnote 448. That seems like pretty much the opposite of cherry-picking.] (]) 03:23, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Once again, the fact that Musk is polarizing is implicitly stated throughout the article beyond Vance saying it outright. What do you call it if some people praise you and others criticize you? And you are cherry picking if you're trying to refute that RS say Musk is polarizing when we have a whole basket of sources above. ~ ]] 04:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::What do you call it if some people praise you and others criticize you? Controversial. So why are we being redundant in the lead, ]? We’re also over-generalizing, as the cited WaPo article says he’s a “polarizing internet provocateur” rather than polarizing in other contexts.] (]) 04:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Saying a controversial thing and being controversial yourself are two separate things. Clarity has never done a human harm. ~ ]] 04:46, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

			Do people support such a change? Are there any corrections or suggested edits?
	===Polarizing===
	The lead presently says, “Musk has made controversial statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, and is a polarizing figure.” Per ], the word “controversial” is “subjective and vague”. But suppose we keep “controversial” in the lead. Who makes controversial statements and is not polarizing? I support removing the redundant phrase “and is a polarizing figure”.] (]) 16:14, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	:They are not synonymous, I can say something controversial and if everyone but me thinks it's controversial it's not polarizing, as everyone agrees. ] (]) 18:34, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	::I still don’t get why this is lead-worthy. The only support for it in the article body is this sentence: “Celebrated by his fans and hated by critics, Ashlee Vance described him as very polarizing and ‘part philosopher, part troll’”. So someone named Ashlee Vance says he’s polarizing, and we can just say so in wikivoice in the lead? That doesn’t make sense. Also, I would appreciate an example of a situation where he’s said something polarizing but not controversial, or vice-versa.] (]) 19:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::We also have ] and ]. ] (]) 19:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

			Proposed new version of the paragraph:
	::::Well, sure, . Your first link says that Musk's buyout of Twitter was polarizing. Other reliable sources . If there is any difference in meaning there, it is not sufficiently great for the lead.] (]) 20:31, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			Musk's actions and ] have made him a polarizing figure. In a , about 40% of Americans had at least a somewhat favorable view of him, while about 50% had at least a somewhat unfavorable view. The public's impression of Musk has . For instance, after his purchase of Twitter, a lower proportion of people described him as an “innovator” or “visionary” compared to 8 months earlier. Meanwhile, a higher proportion described him as “impulsive”. He has been described as having , building on the ] philosophy. However, Musk has been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including ], affirming ] and ] comments, and promoting ]. ] has been controversial because of large employee layoffs, an ], ] on the service, and changes to service features, including ]. ] (]) 17:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::To add on: , Bloomberg says Musk is on a , ''Inc.'' calls him a "", ''Yahoo News'' calls him a "", ''Variety'' calls him "". It's '''entirely due'''. ~ ]] 21:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:~~::::Can't~~ we ~~too~~ ~~short it down~~ to ~~"polarizing~~ ~~statements"?~~ Or ~~that's too contrived perhaps~~. ] (]) 04:55, 10 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:It just adds words to an already long article. ] (]) 17:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No, It would make the lead too long. Maybe, we can just add "''In a 2024 survey, about 40% of Americans had at least a somewhat favorable view of him, while about 50% had at least a somewhat unfavorable view.''", and not add the rest of what you're proposing. I feel like that would be a good balance ] (]) 18:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Sorry I missed this reply, HAL.
			:::I accept the article and leader are long.
	:::::The Talk page is a convoluted mess right now. What can we do to streamline? ] (]) 22:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::Only keeping the first sentence (i.e. on 2024 survey) does not add balance on its own because it only quantifies the existing first sentence of the paragraph. For balance, the third sentence (i.e. on free speech and markets) is most powerful because it states a key aspect of Musk that people may favour. The free speech and markets point is fundamental to understand his polarising position because it is why many may see the criticised points as necessary to achieve something they see as positive.
	:::::I love how every source you linked calls him that after he bought Twitter. But still none of the sources use the redundant wording ] (]) 10:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::Therefore, I propose to drop the first sentences and add the survey references to citations on the existing first sentence of the paragraph as "polarizing" is not well evidenced. And I propose to instead keep the sentence "He has been described..."
	::::::The wording is not redundant. ] explained this already. ] (]) 11:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::If the edit needs to be a near-zero change in characters then further balance can be achieved by reducing the list of criticisms. The criticisms listed are repeating text on the "views of elon musk" and "twitter and elon musk" pages. Furthermore, both sentences relate to many of the same things (e.g. misinformation and hate speech).
	:::::::And I already explained him why that is redundant ] (]) 12:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::It could become something like the following:
	::Second. ] (]) 22:33, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::"However, Musk has been criticized for affirming hate speech, promoting conspiracy theories, and making misleading statements, including disseminating COVID-19 misinformation. His ownership of Twitter has been seen to promote these behaviours on the platform, and has also been controversial due to high employee layoffs and changes to service features, including verification." ] (]) 08:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I agree in that sense that there is some redundancy issue here. I'm not sure about in which way it should be reduced, but there is a redundancy issue, yeah. Your suggestion is better than status quo, definitely. - Copenhagen University IP [[Special:Contributions/130.2
			::::This kind of sums up the problem, (arguably) his most well-regarded "achievement" (social, as opposed to technology) was the promotion of "free speech", which to many of either a dog whilst ort just a lack of common sense, as it is seen as enabling racism and fascism. ] (]) 13:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:We should keep both. ~ ]] 03:35, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::::I agree, though I don't see why it is a problem. His promotion of "free speech" seems key to the paragraph's focus on his polarising character, in that people have different opinions of the consequences of his approach to "free speech". So, whilst I'm happy to use the survey based approach (as proposed by @]) instead of the politico link, I think the politico link and "free speech" point are more pertinent. If trying to limit new characters, I would choose something along those lines instead of survey results. ] (]) 14:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::He also stood against free speech while claiming to stand by it. For example, he cracked down and censored journalist accounts on Twitter. Source: https://www.npr.org/2022/12/16/1143330589/twitter-owner-elon-musk-suspends-the-accounts-of-several-high-profile-journalist ] (]) 18:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::This. In practice, his actual stance towards "free speech" could be more accurately described as "any speech I don't personally object to". ] (]) 13:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The 'unscientific' comes from a lengthy Talk page discussion. Mentioning criticisms described by the article in a lead paragraph is perfectly acceptable. ] (]) 12:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I only removed "unscientific" to reduce words more. It could stay in.
			:::::I am not suggesting criticisms should not be repeated in the lead. I am saying I consider it important that this paragraph is written neutrally, and should therefore at least have 1 sentence which states something that supporters may favour about Musk. I am proposing length reduction, not removal, of the list of criticisms in order to satisfy the comments here requesting no lengthening of the leader. There are still many more criticisms listed in the paragraph than there are positive points.
			:::::New draft of paragraph:
			:::::"Musk's actions and expressed views have made him a polarizing figure.]] He has been described as having a , building on the ] philosophy. However, he has been criticized for affirming hate speech, promoting conspiracy theories, and making unscientific and misleading statements, including disseminating COVID-19 misinformation. His ownership of Twitter has been seen to promote these behaviours on the platform, and has also been controversial due to high employee layoffs and changes to service features, including verification." ] (]) 07:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I agree putting the stats in is interesting, but could also be placed in the section about his public perception. It would be good to contrast what he is criticized for with what he is praised for in a single sentence. You say "free speech and markets" is what you believe people like. It would be more relevant to state what the 40% actually agree with. "Innovator" and "visionary" seem to be direct citations of positive perceptions, the source you have for those probably provides more concrete statements. ] (]) 12:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Second. ] (]) 23:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I agree. Better to have a new section like 'Musk in the opinion polls' or something. I'm not a lover of polls becoming central to an article. ] (]) 10:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			Um... this is Misplaced Pages. Neutrality on political figures is not our strong suit. ] (]) 19:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Add the pronunciation of "X Æ A-Xii" (one of his child's name) ==
	*I don't think we want to make such pronouncements in the lead of a ] in the ], without attributing it to a source. IMO, it looks quite distasteful and not in the style of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 07:00, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man. ~ ]] 04:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::Counts just as much as your opinion, ]. You also seem to have a misunderstanding about consensus in a BLP. Per ] (emphasis added), “When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first.” Please read that last sentence closely. You too ].] (]) 05:20, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Yes, and we have consensus. ~ ]] 05:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Second. ] (]) 05:44, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

			I cannot edit the article, as I rarely contribute to the English Misplaced Pages. Could someone with editing permissions please add this sentence to the 'Relationships and children' section (before 'They have received criticism for choosing a name perceived to be impractical and difficult to pronounce.'):
	===BLPN discussion===
	I started at the BLP Noticeboard.] (]) 05:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

			:According to Grimes, the name is pronounced (the letter 'X', followed by 'A' and 'I'), while Musk states it is pronounced (the letter 'X', 'Æ' pronounced as 'Ash', followed by 'A-12' as 'A twelve').
	== Elon Musk's "pro-extremist" policies on Twitter ==

			Here is my source: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/elon-musk-child-name-grimes-pronounce-x-b2469396.html
	The edits I made, based on an article from The Intercept detailing close coordination between Elon Musk and far-right troll Andy Ngo, have been removed. But the chorus has grown louder, with the NY Times and the Washington Post also voicing concerns now:
	* https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/12/03/twitter-antisemitism-violence-jan-6/
	* https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/technology/twitter-hate-speech.html
	The NY Times article is based on statistical analysis showing a sharp rise in hate speech since Musk took over Twitter.
	Is none of this notable for this entry? ] (]) 14:45, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
	:It is already present in the Twitter subsection. ~ ]] 14:47, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

			Thanks ] (]) 23:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Please, link to it. I'm not finding anything in the entry addressing these concerns, and I just skimmed through the text after reading your comment. ] (]) 15:17, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::"A study of millions of tweets following the acquisition indicated that hate speech on the platform has become "more visible" under Musk's leadership." last line paragraph 4. ] (]) 15:23, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

			==We need to describe the Musk that exists today==
	::::This very brief passage addresses neither the issue of direct coordination between Musk and extremist propagandists such as Ngo, nor the reinstatement and promotion of previously banned Nazis (as opposed to mere verification of never-banned extremist users). ] (]) 15:32, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
			It's absurd that we still describe him in the first sentence only as a "businessman known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc." That is not what he is best known for today. His political meddling (now also in Europe), his far-right politics, and his promotion of conspiracy theories are what he is best known for today. "A polarizing figure" doesn't adequately summarize how he is viewed today. He has openly promoted fascist and even neo-Nazi politics. We need to have something about far-right politics and conspiracy theories in the first section. --] (]) 17:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::: I am unsure if either of your sources supports the claim of direct (or even indirect) coordination between Musk and extremists (and you need to read ]). But we could add a few words such as "and following his acquisition Musk reinstated a number of extremist accounts". But as (I think) the section is already bloated I am unsure it adds much to what we already say. ] (]) 15:38, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
			:I disagree, he has only been known for that for (what?) a year. ] (]) 17:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Closer to two. In any event, he is described by many as the effective co-president or shadow president of the United States. He tries to topple governments, supports far-right neo-Nazi parties and politicians in Germany and the United Kingdom, etc., etc. His past life as a businessman known for Tesla is trivial ''in comparison'' to the role he now plays in world politics. --] (]) 17:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::And he is a lot older than 4, thus this is really recent thing, and when (and if) he actually topples a government this might change. He is still only a businessman, one who happens to own a social media company used to amplify his voice. ] (]) 17:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That is not how he is perceived today, and it is not the standard that Misplaced Pages follows. --] (]) 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:He has not openly promoted fascist or neo-Nazi policies... Some people appear to be living in alternative realities. ] (]) 21:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You're right, you are apparently living in an alternate reality where he ''didn't'' use his ownership of twitter to spread the conspiracy theory that jews are encouraging immigration to exterminate whites, and where he ''didn't'' support the far-right AfD party in germany, and where he ''didn't'' make a nazi salute twice at Trump's inauguration.
			::This is why editing the article to come across as "neutral" to his fans is a losing proposition. It is impossible to accurately describe reality while appeasing those who are ideologically opposed to acknowledging it. (See also: the talk page for "Evolution".) ] (]) 22:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

	~~::::::The~~ ~~issue~~ of ~~direct~~ ~~coordination between Elon and the~~ ~~far-right~~ is ~~detailed~~ in ~~The~~ ~~Intercept: https://theintercept~~.~~com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-ngo-antifascist/~~ ] (]) 15:44, 4 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		I have had my say, it is now time for others. ] (]) 18:19, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::Please read ], it does not say there was direct coordination, it implies there might have been, but this is not enough for us to say there was. We might be able to say "the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club said in a statement to The Intercept. “Whether this is an indication of the future of leadership of Elon Musk’s running of Twitter, we cannot say but we can say that the timing and reasoning is deliberate and targeted.”", but (again) in an overly bloated section the views of one group may not be relevant. ] (]) 15:51, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

			:Following the creation of the presidential commission ] which is likely to be in the next couple of days since the inauguration of Donald Trump today, I think it would be prudent to describe musk as "is a businessman and political figure known for his key roles in the space company ] and the automotive company ] and since 2025 has served as the ], under the ].
	::::::::This is bonkers. Elon publicly asked far-right troll Andy Ngo to list him which accounts should be banned; this is direct coordination. And it's in the article. And I don't think the section as it stands, with one or two sentences about the rise of hate speech on Twitter after Elon's takeover, is bloated at all. ] (]) 16:30, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
	~~:::::::::~~:I ~~did~~ ~~not~~ ~~get~~ ~~that~~ ~~impression~~ ~~from~~ ~~your~~ ~~sources,~~ he ~~was~~ ~~asked~~ to do ~~it,~~ he ~~did~~ ~~not~~ ~~(as~~ ~~far~~ as I ~~can~~ ~~see)~~ ~~ask~~ ~~who~~ ~~should~~ be ~~banned.~~ As I ~~must~~ ~~have~~ ~~missed~~ it ~~can~~ ~~you~~ ~~provide~~ ~~the~~ ~~quote?~~ ] (]) 16:33, 4 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:I feel that this change should only go into place following the creation of this department by executive order. Side note that the title for the head of this department is likely to be Commissioner/ Co-Commissioner or Chairman/ Co-Chairman but title could change. ] (]) 19:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That's pretty reasonable. Far better than the attacking far-left dribble bias promoted by the original poster of this discussion. ] (]) 20:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::as of 20 January 2025 the ] has been established by executive order, under the authoirty of the 47th president of the united states. with elon musk being appointed as sole leader of said organisation due to the resignation of ] in order for him to run for governor of the state of Ohio.
			:::Pursuant to this executive order Elon Musk is now a member of the ] as such it should be mentioned in his preamble, in line with other government officials <ref>{{Cite web \|last=Bloomingbit \|date=2025-01-20 \|title=Donald Trump Issues Executive Order to Establish Department of Government Efficiency \|url=https://bloomingbit.io/en/feed/news/82040 \|access-date=2025-01-21 \|website=Bloomingbit \|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web \|date=2025-01-21 \|title=Ramaswamy forced out of DOGE by Musk after calling US workers ‘mediocre,’ report says \|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/ramaswamy-trump-musk-department-of-government-efficiency-b2683213.html \|access-date=2025-01-21 \|website=The Independent \|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web \|last= \|first= \|date=2025-01-21 \|title=Establishing And Implementing The President's "Department Of Government Efficiency" \|url=https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/establishing-and-implementing-the-presidents-department-of-government-efficiency/ \|access-date=2025-01-21 \|website=The White House, United States Government \|language=en-US}}</ref><ref>{{Cite news \|last=Schleifer \|first=Theodore \|last2=Ngo \|first2=Madeleine \|date=2025-01-20 \|title=Ramaswamy Will Bow Out of Cost-Cutting Project and Run for Governor in Ohio \|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/20/us/politics/ramaswamy-doge-ohio-governor.html \|access-date=2025-01-21 \|work=The New York Times \|language=en-US \|issn=0362-4331}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web \|last=Bravender \|first=Robin \|date=2025-01-21 \|title=Trump makes DOGE, energy emergency official \|url=https://www.eenews.net/articles/trump-makes-doge-energy-emergency-official/ \|access-date=2025-01-21 \|website=E&E News by POLITICO \|language=en-US}}</ref> as of this date Elon Musk holds the position of The Administrator of The U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization. as such I shall be including my pre mentioned edit, with the correction of his title into Musk's preamble.
			:::@] @] @] ] (]) 06:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Controversial Salute ==
	::::::::::This passage is hard to miss if you actually read The Intercept article, but OK: 'In a public exchange on Twitter on Friday, Musk invited Ngo to report “Antifa accounts” that should be suspended directly to him.' ] (]) 16:47, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::OK then we can say that "according to the intercept...". ] (]) 16:52, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

			I understand ] has previously attempted to install this development, quickly erased by ].
	::::::::::::The Intercept is a reliable source according to our guideline and doesn't need attribution for statements of fact. And anyone can click on the link to Elon's tweet and see that things happened exactly as descrived by The Intercept. ] (]) 16:58, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::: and reported on Ngo pointing out an account to Musk, which was then suspended. So, that is a level of "direct coordination", but the way Musk seems to be doing it, and the way reliable sources are reporting it, is that it's fairly ad hoc as opposed to a more concrete strategy imo. – ] (]) 17:07, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::Second. ] (]) 19:10, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
	:Is this one Twitter interaction more notable than the thousands of others covered in reliable sources? More notable that his spat with an ] on whether aliens built the pyramids? More notable than him unbanning Trump? Or banning (the newest antisemite on the block) Kanye? Misplaced Pages isn't news. We don't need to be the first to cover everything. It's also a ] bias. ~ ]] 18:07, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
	::One Twitter interaction isn't that notable, but when the owner of the site takes suggestions from right wing agitators to block left wing accounts, then there's something there. – ] (]) 00:57, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

			Why is this the case? It is evidently proving to be a significant story, reported by numerous trusted mainstream press outlets. There is no established consensus on The Jerusalem Post, either, but it is suitable given the context of antisemitism. ] (]) 21:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	More high profile commentary in Reliable Sources on Musk's pro-extremist policies on Twitter
			:Because it really is speculation, and may this is a BLP, not a new paper. ] (]) 21:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/12/06/twitter-ads-elon-musk/
			:'''Suggest snow:''' here the links ] (]) 22:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	] (]) 17:39, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
			::
			:: ] (]) 22:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Now the New York Times is reporting on it.
			::: "Mr. Musk twice extended his arm out with his palm facing down, drawing comparisons to the Nazi salute." ] (]) 22:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The video literally shows that his palm is facing upward in the second one. They're literally lying. ] (]) 23:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You are mistaken, or lying. . – ] (]) 23:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Do you bend your arm backwards when you raise your arm to thank someone? I certainly never do. My hand is "facing upwards" even though it's technically still facing with some angle toward the ground.
			::::::I'm really getting tired of these disingenuous arguments. These arguments are emotionally manipulative to make it look like the guy's a Nazi. ] (]) 23:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I presented you video of Musk doing the salute twice with palm down both times. It is not {{tq\|disingenuous}} or {{tq\|emotionally manipulative}} to ]. – ] (]) 23:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::He was not doing a salute. He was thanking the crowd with a "throwing heart" motion. ] (]) 23:28, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::As stated earlier, this interpretation is your ]. Multiple RS are comparing his gesture to a nazi salute. ] (]) 23:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I mean, it is very obviously a Nazi salute, and he did it twice, so it isn't like it was an "accident". RSs are reporting he did the salute, so he did. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 13:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::It's interesting that you'd accuse anyone else of being "disingenuous" given that you have been presented with obvious evidence, multiple times, that ''you'' are being untruthful in your defense of Musk. ] (]) 23:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Please stay on topic and ]. ] (]) 23:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It's not evidence of anything. He was literally throwing his heart out to the crowd. People who believe this stuff need to put down their foggles. ] (]) 22:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::you need to look up the word literally ] (]) 10:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:He did it twice. It's very clear at least one of it is an attempt at a nazi salute. You don't wave to people like that. Anyone who has seen the accounts he interacts with, boost and defend on twitter (openly fascist ones and mazis), would understand exactly what he is doing. Someone on Bluesky theorised he attempted to do a mix of wave/nazi salute with plausible deniability, but was overly enthusiastic and made it an obvious salute instead. Of course some media will pretend otherwise. But enough reliable sources call is for what it is. Let's call a spade a spade.] (]) 12:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:If you actually watch the video he says "My heart goes out to you" and brings his hand to his heart and then out to the crowd. This section should not even be added to Misplaced Pages when it was clearly taken out of context. If this is to be included, we should include this type of entry into most there politicians who have accidentally imaged a nazi salute when they have waved or interacted with a crowd. There is photos and videos of notable figures who do not have whole Misplaced Pages sections who have made this gesture: Elizabeth Warren, Barack Obama, Kamala Harris, and more.
			:This needs to be removed. ] (]) 01:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::He happened to touch his shoulder, then send his arm out in a 45 degree angle above his head. These two movements, in conjunction, have a name. That name is the ]. ] ] ] 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

			I don't disagree with ] that this is speculation, but I do think we should open a wider Talk Page discussion about this because I believe that is exactly the point. Many of Musk's statements that are alleged to be antisemitic could be argued to reflect wider conspiracy theories, rather than deeply held anti-Jewish sentiment. However, they make major news and are the subject of discussion. If we should take a day or two to see how this settles into the news cycle, I definitely accept that, but even the concept of a ] in American public life is a major deal. It is a controversy, and if it is to be labeled a ] in further defense, that adds to the fascism controversy as well. ] (]) 22:03, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	More reliable sources on Elon Musk's reinstatement of previously banned Nazi accounts:
	~~https~~:~~//www.cnn.com/2022/12/05/business/nightcap-twitter-neo-~~nazi~~/index~~.~~html~~ ] (]) ~~23:~~22, 10 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:The difference is that a "nazi salute" could just be waving at someone, a picture is a snapshot. ] (]) 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It isn’t merely an embarrassing freeze-frame, Elon beat his chest and stretched the arm to indicate unambiguously a salute. There is now widespread political commentary, of journalists criticising it. I agree that we should wait as the story develops, however, it will certainly be notable as an allegation against Elon’s involvement in far-right ideology. ] (]) 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It is precisely an embaressing freeze-frame. He was in the middle of thanking the crowd and grabbed his heart and "threw it" out to the crowd in front and then did the same to the crowd behind him. Try it. Put your right hand over your heart in a clenched fist then fling your arm out to the right springing open your hand. You end up in exactly the position he's in with your hand out stretched, fingers spread and your hand tilted slightly upward from your arm. This whole thing is internet drama that violates basic BLP page quality standards. ] (]) 22:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{tq\|grabbed his heart and "threw it" out to the crowd }} is your ]. I would never do what he did because it looks like a Nazi salute. We need to give this enough time to see how RS cover it, beyond the immediate "apparent fascist salute" headlines. – ] (]) 22:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Here's ADL saying it isn't a Nazi salute. https://x.com/ADL/status/1881474892022919403 ] (]) 23:03, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::: – ] (]) 23:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::The only reason that article got written is because of the unpopularity of Israel's war with Hamas and ADL's support of israel, not because they've suddenly become antisemitic themselves. ] (]) 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::The article was written because the ADL has taken an odd stance around Trump-related Naziism recently. I put their excuse of Musk in that bucket. – ] (]) 23:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Trump isn't Nazi and dosen't support nazis... If you mean hate groups like proud boys, ADL does not defend them. ] (]) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I mean all white nationalists he refuses to condemn, from David Duke down to the Proud Boys. ADL is oddly silent, or making excuses. – ] (]) 23:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::"Refusing to condemn" is a purity test that's generally inappropriate to use. You shouldn't use the "you're either for them or against them" type arguments. ] (]) 06:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Let's try to stay on topic here. ] (]) 10:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::On the one hand, we have an opinion piece written in a fringe left wing publication by a rival advocacy group generally bashing the ADL on an unrelated topic. On the other hand, here's how well established RS (The New York Times) refer to their specific comments on this salute.
			:::::::{{tq\|The Anti-Defamation League, which has tangled with Mr. Musk in the past, later said on X that Mr. Musk had “made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm” and that it was “not a Nazi salute.” The organization added that “all sides should give one another a bit of grace.”}}<ref>https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/20/us/politics/elon-musk-hand-gesture-speech.html</ref>
			:::::::So NYT not only highlights their explanation of the issue, it notes that the ADL is no fan of Musk and implies that it might be expected to be even less charitable to him. ] (]) 00:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::: – ] (]) 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::] ] (]) 23:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::, before they didnt respond to Trump's Nazi rally. Probably out of date. – ] (]) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Feel free to open another one then, but point stands it's a reliable source as considered by Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 23:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I might have to. – ] (]) 23:19, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Doesn't the Nazi salute fall under antisemitism anyway (])? ] (] • ]) 06:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::It does lol — '''] '']''''' 07:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Saying that Elon Musk isn't a fascist on a platform he runs and has a history of censoring criticism on is hardly evidence. ] ] ] 18:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::In 2022, the leader of the ADL also favorably compared Elon Musk to Henry Ford, apparently unaware that Ford was notoriously antisemitic. The organization's response to Musk's gesture yesterday should certainly be noted, but so should criticism of their response.
			::::::(For whatever it's worth, today the ADL condemned Donald Trump's decision to pardon some 1,500 participants in the Jan. 6th insurrection, saying that move "undermines accountability and risks reinvigorating violent extremists".)
			::::::Musk himself responded to the ADL's tweet encouraging "grace" with the message "Thanks guys" followed by the laughing while crying emoji. Is he laughing at the ADL? Is he laughing at the whole sitaution? Does he just like to play games with public opinion? (If so, why doesn't he pay someone to boost his score?) Is he like the Kitchen brothers in ''Fargo'' silently gesturing that their shoe size is eleven? Is he like people egregiously making the "OK" sign after it emerged that some extremists used it to signify "white power"? Many of those copycats just liked being subversive and edgy.
			::::::And is there any connection between the gesture and what he said next? ("It is thanks to you that the future of civilization is assured.") I've seen suggestions that he's referencing the "fourteen words" with that statement, but I think without the prior gesticulation, that remark would be seen as entirely anodyne. ] (]) 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::: have pointed out that lately the organization seems to be more interested in supporting the state of Israel than actually opposing antisemitism in the general case. ] seems on-brand for the new leadership. ] (]) 23:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::You're misrepresenting something which is so very clear. No, his palm was not facing upwards, that's just untrue. No, it was not a throwing hearts sign. It was very clearly a ]. Elon even did it twice. ] (]) 13:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It's even worse in the video. :) ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 13:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			Those on the far-right are characterizing this as a Nazi salute and celebrating it.<ref>{{cite web \|last1=Dickinson \|first1=Tim \|title=Right-Wing Extremists Are Abuzz Over Musk's Straight-Arm Salute \|url=https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-salute-reaction-right-wing-extremists-1235241866/ \|website=Rolling Stone \|date=20 January 2025}}</ref> ] (]) 23:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

			:Confirmation bias at play. ] (]) 23:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Replace "highly polazring" with "highly discussed" and remove extremely trivial story ==
			:: He even did it twice (once to the crowd, once to the leader) just like the nazis did. ] (]) 23:19, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	Change " is a highly polarizing figure" to " a highly debated figure".

			:'''Comment:''' What Elon Musk did is not a ] or ]. you can easily locate images and videos of left and right wing politicians doing the same thing. This is a case of people seeing what they want to see. ]. currently from what I can see no reliable sources are actually saying he was doing a ]. The articles that are saying he was are either opinion pieces, or are considered unreliable by Misplaced Pages.
	Why?
	What constitutes a "highly polarizing figure" is very subjective and is not based on any sources.
	It might also be problematic because any person who is heavily involved in the process of reforming the world in a way that
	is subject to a political discussion, which Elon Musk indeed is, can be labeled as a "highly polarizing figure".

			From ] "] notably defended the billionaire in a post on X, “It seems that made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute, but again, we appreciate that people are on edge.” ]] (]) 00:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			:Agreed. This is sensitive time. Look at all the democrat leaders doing the same "salute" </nowiki> ] (]) 07:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	Change "which led to some of them engaging in sexist and racist harassment against her" to nothing.
			::The difference is that those images are pictures of people waving, while we have video evidence of Musk touching his shoulder and launching his arm out over his head at a 45 degree angle. There is a name for this, and it is called a ]. ] ] ] 18:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Nah, not the random ] post as a source bruh — '''] '']''''' 07:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::This is ]. ] (]) 07:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Is the Anti-Defemation League reliable in this matter considering they consider 'Free Palestine' to be anti semitic? It's clear they act to further Israel's interest and are willing to defend Musk, who is a zionist. ] (]) 12:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Is Musk a zionist or is he a nazi? Or are you claiming he's both? Words have meaning. ] (]) 18:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Those are not mutually exclusive. Are you aware that a significant faction of right-wing Christian fundamentalists, for example, support the Zionist cause because they think it will bring about the Second Coming? Or that there are anti-Semites who support a Jewish homeland so that they Jewish people are in the homeland, as opposed to other places? ] (]) 03:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::As the other person said, they are not mutually exclusive terms. Musk promotes fascists, including nazis, and is also a zionist. ] (]) 04:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

			----
	Why?
	The fact that a person with one of the largest numbers of followers in the entire world and who is the richest person in the entire world - for example, 86 million followers on Twitter at the time - publicly criticizes a person and that at least 2 followers (=some followers) out of all those followers take that as an opportunity to post aggressive utterances is extremely, extremely trivial - trivial to an extent that you wouldn't expect anything else.
	If it had caused severe death threats, and Gadde had filed lawsuits (and eventually had won those lawsuits), it would have been a different story, put in another way, if she had been victim of criminal actions. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:01, 5 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Because RS say it? ] (]) 20:04, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Who is RS, by the way? ] (]) 00:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	::"I am unsure its already not overloaded, this (after all) is an article about him, Twitter is one recent acquisition. ''Nor am I sure what this new material tells us about him, as a person.'' "
	::Do you think this reasoning can be applied to "which led to some of them engaging in sexist and racist harassment against her" as well? ] (]) 01:07, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
	:I would argue saying he has "86 million followers on Twitter" is trivial given that an estimated half of them are bots. – ] (]) 20:11, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	::I don't think it is reasonable to suggest that 43 million followers on Twitter are trivial or that the richest man in the world doesn't have a large following, frankly. ] (]) 20:23, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::We know that he's rich and he has lots of followers who aren't bots. We also know that reliable sources call him "polarizing", even in the headlines. "Highly debated" is much weaker language. – ] (]) 20:26, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Oops, I'm sorry, I replied on myself by accident below. ] (]) 21:06, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Another problem about the extremely trivial story is that it doesn't even relate to Elon Musk's biography. It doesn't even relate to the content of Elon Musk's tweet.
	::::If something as trivial should be inserted, it should at least relate to Elon Musk's biography. ] (]) 21:53, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::But the evidence still lack though ] (]) 01:46, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::I have looked further into it. Even New York Times prefers to sum the situation up with the subtitle
	:::::"In tweets, Musk takes aim at Twitter executives, creating outrage"
	:::::So the source has not even been used properly, instead very specific details about the situation have been highlighted,
	:::::but what shall be highlighted shall ofc. be the general about the situation that is the outrage. ] (]) 19:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Alternative use '''outrage''' or '''verbal harassment''' instead of "sexist" and "racist" -
	::::It is also worth noting that the source used to back up "which lead to ..." is from New York Times a left-leaning paper which makes it even more problematic
	::::since these words "racist" and "sexist" tend to be buzzwords on the left. Scrolling down this wall https://twitter.com/paraga/status/1518664847768006656
	::::which I believe to be the Twitter in question, it isn't my impression that there is any tendency of racism or sexism, but more like "bullying", "rage", "verbal harassment", "trolls", etc. Considering that Elon Musk's tweet didn't contain any sexist or racist content, it doesn't make sense to use these words in this context.
	::::I talked about how this isn't relevant to Elon Musk or Elon Musk's critique in any way, but if he indeed is a polarizing figure,
	::::then words such as outrage would fit better. ] (]) 18:41, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Oops, wrong replied to the wrong person again, but I would like you to check my post "I have looked further into it ..."
	::::The source isn't even used properly. ] (]) 19:05, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::The problem is that it can be formulated in many ways too.
	::::A right-winger would probably prefer something alike
	::::It led to "more people being open about their critique/opposition"
	::::It "inspired more people to come forward and criticize ..."
	::::All these formulations are true as well, but we have to pick the one that is most general.
	::::The problem about words as "racist" and "sexist" is that they frame Elon Musk as "someone" who inspires racism/sexism which doesn't make sense considering his tweets was not about that.
	::::I think creating outrage directed toward Gadde (formulated in a better way - my English sucks) is definitely the most neutral. ] (]) 19:23, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::I don't have access to source 14.
	:::But I can see the gap in the level of trust between Democrats and Republicans was larger before Elon Musk took over - now it is more equal.
	:::I would see that as polarization has reduced. But it depends on how it is defined.
	:::But if the word is rigorously defined in a commonly accepted expert terminology, and that is how Jordan Marlatt uses the word, then indeed, that is, ofc., correct!
	:::It is worth pointing out that Elon Musk has just taken over Twitter, fired numerous people, and is in the process of trying to reorganize the entire organization.
	:::We cannot in any way say that this is indicative of how it is gonna be in the long term. ] (]) 21:03, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::"But if the word is rigorously defined in a commonly accepted expert terminology, and that is how Jordan Marlatt uses the word, then indeed, that is, ofc., correct!"
	:::I must correct myself here. Maybe not, because this is a biography, not a social science article or anything alike, so the definition should rather fit the one we use in natural language (descriptive definitions, for example, definitions in Oxford Dictionary). ] (]) 23:31, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::'''highly discussed''' is better though ] (]) 23:40, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::Alternatively, we can go with '''polarizing figure''' without '''highly'''. Degree adverbs along with attitude adverbs, etc., tend to be inappropriate for neutral articles. ] (]) 01:44, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Ohhhh, I got you wrong about triviality! Yeah, we should probably reformulate " to his 86 million followers" in a more cautious way. ] (]) 01:21, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	:Disagree against both recommendations. ] (]) 21:35, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Alright. But I would really like to hear your inputs on
	::Change "which led to some of them engaging in sexist and racist harassment against her" to nothing.
	::if you have some ] (]) 21:55, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::I can definitely agree to removing "highly" as unnecessary. – ] (]) 02:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
	:Oppose both, but fine with removing "{{strike\|polarizing}} {{tq\|highly}}". ~ ]] 07:32, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Agree, that is what I have done. The polarization criticism is referenced, but should not be made written about his person, in the ]. ] (]) 08:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::I like those changes. ] (]) 16:48, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

			FWIW, Elon Musk, the man who performed the action himself, doesn't think its a "nazi/far-right/fascist" salute.
	== Twitter files should be linked to Elon musk ==

			Top level he's made denying it:
	Linking of this story would be beneficial to readers

			https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881536518206218445
	https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1598822959866683394?refresh=1670024869 ] (]) 01:35, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
	:I doubt that is an RS. ] (]) 13:25, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
	:I just wanna say that, ofc., should the Twitter files be covered in the Misplaced Pages article at some point - perhaps already. The problem is that the recentist tendencies to cover every move Elon Musk has done in 2022 have introduced enourmous bias into the article from activists - something I have tried to cover too. If we continue to add information to Elon Musk that is recentist, this bias will continue to grow. Especially a case like the Twitter files that is very complex (as it stands now), activist will read into that what they will. When I heard people complaining about Misplaced Pages not adding Twitter files, I thought they actually got it wrong. If it was added, it would very likely not be covered objectively, but used as another tool to attempt to cause reputational damage on Elon Musk. We need the Twitter drama, etc., to calm down. It is also problematic that the Misplaced Pages article contains information that suggests that hate speech has increased since Elon Musk took over based on 2 weeks (or 1 month?) and after nearly firing the entire moderation team AFAIK. 2 weeks say nothing, and the information will likely be outdated next year. But I will not start that discussion. Just pointing out the issues about recency bias. ] (]) 08:48, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

			Tweet's he's replied to/reposted agreeing with the statements/denying it:
	== FAQ text ==

			https://x.com/kimbal/status/1881536140572045472
	{{ping\|CactiStaccingCrane}}, I see you've moved{{diff\|diff=1126287304\|oldid=1126282589}} the FAQ from ] to a pinned note at the top of this page, with an edit summary saying that this is for "{{tq\|easy reading}}". Firstly, could you expand on your rationale for this move? And secondly, I note that you've rewritten much of the text in the process. If moving the FAQ was really necessary, it would have been preferable to start with identical text so that we can see exactly what has changed... ] (]) 15:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
			: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881536708388528348
			https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/1881539485071994939
			: https://x.com/Thompsonklay/status/1881539657974136847
			:: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881543856199700727
			https://x.com/stillgray/status/1881511383600447817
			: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881534446639501320
			https://x.com/AutismCapital/status/1881525932248477720
			: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881526554100203739
			https://x.com/GadSaad/status/1881513315299668386
			: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881520368235765866
			: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881520634343387474
			https://x.com/AdamCollettX/status/1881492336305471755
			: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881512076344217868
			https://x.com/ADL/status/1881474892022919403
			: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881510804006269080

			] (]) 06:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:The FAQ subpage was originally made for the {{tl\|FAQ}} banner, which will not display on mobile, so I transcluded the page to here. Many months later, I figured there's no reason why we need to bury the FAQ at the subpage when we can just place it here, so I do just that. To address one of the main criticism about the discussion here is perceived elitism from editors, I also rewrote the FAQ to be more welcoming to newcomers. ] (]) 15:12, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Firstly, I don't see what was wrong with the transclusion. We now have two versions, one here and one at the subpage. Secondly, the text at the subpage has its own edit history that should be preserved. And most importantly, the subpage was the result of consensus over several months, whereas your new text is (IMO) less consensual and also has several grammar errors. I suggest you revert your edit to return to the transclusion, then discuss your proposed changes here. ] (]) 15:27, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::Second. ] (]) 17:36, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

			:] applies. Of course he'll deny what we saw with our lying eyes. – ] (]) 15:19, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::There shouldn't be two versions of the FAQ. The FAQ page is unprotected and can be edited to better summarize past discussion on these questions. Please consider a few points that have come up in the past, though. The first ("magnet") question targets the sort of person who hears Musk say a thing on the Rogan show and rushes in here as a kind of participatory entertainment. The second targets people who can't tell Misplaced Pages from a social media site. For these answers to be effective the language of both should be kept ''very'' simple, concise and undemanding. Furthermore, the FAQ should be civil and never bitter in tone, and should avoid references to a royal "we" in accordance with WP:OWN. ] (]) 21:27, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
	::~~::Agree. I~~'ll ~~revise~~ ~~the~~ ~~FAQ~~ in the ~~sandbox~~ ~~now~~. ] (]) 03:50, 10 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		::He's not denying he made the motion. So that's irrelevant. ] (]) 18:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::This is mincing words to the point of disrespect. He’s denying the meaning of the motion and significance of the act. ] (]) 03:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::], ] Here it is: ]. What do you think about it now? ] (]) 03:54, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
			:I think it's worth re-emphasizing that Musk doesn't actually deny in any of those tweets that his gesture was a Nazi salute. Not once.
			:In fact, in one of them, he supports another Twitter user's argument that no one should ever be compared to a Nazi because "it didn't work, it's not working now, it's tired, boring, and old material".
			:That is, in effect, a call to let even undeniable Nazis say what they like without being criticized as Nazis. ] (]) 22:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			I have now seen the video, and yes it looks to me like a Nazi salute, arm straight out. So it seems to me that if RS say it is (and I think it is) we can say he has ben accused of it. ] (]) 09:19, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Cave rescue in the lead ==

			:If you think Elon Musk is a nazi you'll believe it's a nazi salute. This is just a rorschach test if anything. ] (]) 09:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	I commented above under "Lead improvements" but will start this as well. The last paragraph of the lead section is about controversial statements on politics and technology, particularly on Twitter, and is a polarizing figure. I removed the part about the cave rescue from this section. It seems sort of out of place for that section and minor compared to everything else in that section and the overall bio. Thoughts? Thanks. ] (]) 16:17, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
			::Odd as my OP doubts it based upon a picture, but it has changed now I have seen the video. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. It is not a wave. And read ].] (]) 09:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I am assuming good faith. I fully believe you think what you are saying and that you are convinced it's a nazi salute. ] (]) 10:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::No, as you do not know what I think about musk. ] (]) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Ergzay is mistaken in believing this is a Rorschach test: I didn't think Musk was an actual nazi (I'm not from the US and I don't care about Musk), then I watched the clip and was instantly convinced. No-one makes this gesture with their arm and hand extended like this, unless it's a nazi salute. ] (]) 13:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Addendum: I'm referring to the first salute. The second salute looks like a regular greeting. It is possible that the second one was meant to "correct" accidental behaviour. This happens often in human psychology. Ergzay is making it hard to keep assuming their good faith by arguing against rather clear evidence. ] (]) 13:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The first "salute" (it wasn't a salute) has his hand bent upward from his arm. It's not parallel with his arm. That's not a salute it's a "throwing your heart out to the crowd". BTW I'll add he's continuing to laugh about people who actually think it was a nazi salute on twitter with plenty of memes about it. ] (]) 17:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That's a convenient way to both side a very obvious gesture. Fact is it's a fast straight thrust of the right arm at a particular angle amd withdrawal, with no actual waving. Yeah you can find pics of Obama holding his arm at the same angle. But he was waving then. But the action at that situation makes it undeniable. You don't need to even know Elon Musk to understand this. (edit, added a sentence) ] (]) 13:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No you do need to know Elon Musk. He's has autism spectrum disorder and he went on stage in an extremely excitable state and was gesturing wildly throughout his whole speech. I've again removed it and will continue to remove it. ] (]) 17:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::A bit off-topic here, but that is zero excuse to go throwing up fascist symbols. I have ADHD and probably have undiagnosed autism, yet ''I'' don't go around seig-hieling and blaming it on my mental state. "He has autism" is zero excuse. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I didn't say it's an excuse to throw up fascist symbols. I'm saying he didn't make a fascist symbol. He threw up his arm thanking the crowd. Not everyone is hyper aware of trying to avoid the slightest hint of making any arm motion that makes you look strange. (I'm personally frankly extremely tired that people throwing their arms in strange directions gets you automatically marked as some kind of nazi. It's intellectually dishonest to continue this type of nonsense.) The media of course loves it because they get free clicks. This whole arm thing got more media attention than the inauguration itself. ] (]) 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::He pumped his right hand to his heart, and then reached up with his right hand, palm up. The second time was the same thing, but he wasn't biting his lip. It was 100% a fascist (or Roman, at that) salute, and I'm not arguing over what my eyes see. ] once said "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.", and the media agrees that it was questionable at best. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::He's right hand dominant so anyone would thank people with their right hand so the right hand thing is irrelevant. He grabbed his fist to his heart to throw his heart out to the crowd in the front right and then again to those behind him. When he reached out to the right, the palm at a higher angle than the rest of his arm as if in a wave, and then the same thing to the audience behind him similarly palm at a higher angle than his arm. It was not a "fasicst" or "Roman" salute. It wasn't a salute at all. ] (]) 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::We need to stay focused just on what the sources say, @], and to avoid ]. ] (]) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I think if we abandon all reason and blindly copy paste the interpretation of sources even when they're in a state of mass delusion we are not doing our jobs as editors. ] (]) 18:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::We follow RS. We don't accuse them of "mass delusion" if we don't personally agree with them. ] (]) 18:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::This is not about personal agreement. This is about what is obvious from primary sources that anyone can see that doesn't have predispositions to see everything as nazi. ] (]) 18:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::{{tq\|anyone can see that doesn't have predispositions to see everything as nazi.}} Are you talking about sources or editors? We surely don't use sources that see everything as Nazi. ] (]) 21:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::1. Elon Musk has never been diagnosed with autism.
			::::2. Even if he had, compulsive fascist hand gestures are not a recognized symptom of autism.
			::::It is clear that you are just throwing every disingenuous argument you can think of at the wall in the hopes one will stick. ] (]) 23:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I think it might be reasonable for this article to note that some people defending Elon Musk from accusations that his gesture was a Nazi salute are explaining what he did as deriving from his autism. Here are four news articles that mention it:
			:::::1. "Aaron Astor, a history professor at Maryville College in Tennessee, : “This is a socially awkward autistic man’s wave to the crowd where he says ‘my heart goes out to you.’” (Musk has previously disclosed that he has Asperger’s syndrome, also known as autism spectrum disorder.) Newsweek opinion editor Batya Ungar-Sargon offered a similar explanation, : “We don’t need to invent outrage.”" source:
			:::::2. "Andrea Stroppa, a confidant of Musk who has connected him with far-right Italian PM Giorgia Meloni, was reported by Italian media to have posted the clip of Musk with the caption: "Roman Empire is back starting from Roman salute". ... Stroppa later deleted his post, Italian media said. He later posted that "that gesture, which some mistook for a Nazi salute, is simply Elon, who has autism, expressing his feelings by saying, 'I want to give my heart to you'"." source:
			:::::3. "Democratic Representative blasted the ADL's reaction, saying on X: "Just to be clear, you are defending a Heil Hitler salute that was performed and repeated for emphasis and clarity." Another historian, Aaron Astor, also rebuffed accusations of Musk's Nazi emulation. "I have criticized Elon Musk many times for letting pollute this platform," he wrote on X, adding: "But this gesture is not a Nazi salute." "This is a socially awkward autistic man's wave to the crowd where he says 'my heart goes out to you.'" In 2021, Musk announced he had been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, a form of ." source:
			:::::4. "Holocaust deniers and to see the appear to acknowledge them. Far-right political commentator '''Evan Kilgore''' Monday, writing, “Holy crap...Did @elonmusk just Heil Hitler at the Trump Inauguration Rally in Washington D.C...This is incredible.” He added two fire emojis for good measure, and followed up in another tweet: “We are so back,” appending a—wait for it—saluting emoji. Oh. In his replies, Kilgore repeatedly insisted that “it’s a joke” and that “we all know that wasn’t his intention.” Do…we? Also on Monday, , “Elon Musk is autistic. He was excited. We all know his intentions weren't to make a Sieg Heil. It looked much more like a Roman Salute. Can we all have a sense of humor for 5 seconds?” (Incidentally, Musk first opened up about his neurodivergence on ''Saturday Night Live'' in 2021.)" source: ] (]) 00:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{sources-talk}}

	:I ~~don't~~ ~~think~~ ~~that~~ ~~the~~ ~~cave~~ ~~rescue~~ ~~story~~ is ~~significant~~ ~~enough~~ a ~~part~~ of ~~Elon's~~ ~~biography~~ to be ~~mentioned in~~ the ~~lead~~. ~~– ~~]~~ ~~(]) 16:20, 8 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:His Nazi salute needs to be covered together with his broader involvement in far-right politics and his promotion of the far right more broadly. --] (]) 12:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I would agree, its is a minor part of this article. ] (]) 16:23, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
	:The episode constitutes a significant portion of the article and there was a highly publicized trial about the subject. It is worthy of a single sentence in the lead. ] (]) 17:34, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
	:Agreed, it's not major enough to include in the lead. – ] 18:46, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
	::I agree. It is not a failed proposal either. It was rejected. And it's even unsure whether a rejected proposal is a failure. A proposal that is taken into use and fails is definitely a failure, indeed. I wanna comment on QRep2020. This person seems to be obssessed with Elon Musk. https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/QRep2020 Obviously the person has also written https://en.wikipedia.org/TSLAQ Every edit he makes on the articles related Elon Musk frame him negatively. The person also rejected two of my suggestions without giving any reason. I just want you to be aware of this person
	::- Copenhagen IP ] (]) 01:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	:I think it's notable enough for the lead. There was a massive amount of coverage in the press. ~ ]] 04:15, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	::In all instances, if it shall be put there, it should be rephrased or reflect sources in a neutral way. ] (]) 04:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	::It fails to cover the efforts (or "actions" is perhaps more neutral) that Elon Musk put into the situation by anonymizing the efforts under the word "proposal" which easily can be misunderstood as another random and awkward Elon Musk tweet. https://www.vox.com/2018/7/18/17576302/elon-musk-thai-cave-rescue-submarine It wasn't unambiguously a failure eithe " While Thai rescuers praised Musk’s technology, some said it wasn’t “practical” for their plans. “Although technology is good and sophisticated, it’s not practical for this mission,” Narongsak Osatanakorn, the head of the joint command center overseeing the operation, told the Guardian. " "Fails" is a subjective interpretation by QRep2020 - who spends all his/her/they time on adding negative information on every matter related to Elon Musk - that is not reflected by any reliable sources. But I don't support that it stands in the lead. ] (]) 05:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

			::I agree. If this was a one-off without all of the other accusations of far-right/Nazi sympathy/support, it could be written off as "throwing hearts at the crowd" more easily. We can't say definitively that it was meant as a Nazi salute, as we can't read his mind, but the ] is pretty hefty on this. – ] (]) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Proposal failed to be adopted. ] (]) 12:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

			:The video was edited by people in Europe to make it look like that when it wasn't. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:::I didn't introduce the language. ] (]) 14:18, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	*I don’t think the pedo thing belongs in the lead. Most of the coverage in reliable sources occurred before Musk was found not liable, but after that the suspense was gone, and RS’s reduced coverage tremendously. This matter would more appropriately be in the lead of the ], but not here in Musk’s BLP, because it’s a much bigger percentage of lifetime total RS coverage for the cave rescue than for Musk (presently neither Musk nor the “pedo” remark is anywhere in the pertinent article about the cave rescue which suggests they weren’t very significant according to RS’s). If Musk had been found liable, I assume coverage in RS’s would now be much greater, but that did not happen.] (]) 15:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
	*:Seconded. There is massive coverage of just about anything Musk says or does, but I don't see any significant ''lasting'' coverage of the cave rescue or the "pedo" lawsuit that would justify a lead mention. ] (]) 15:51, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

			=== section break ===
	* ok, it looks like maybe 7 editors think it doesn't belong in the lead, and 2 do? I know its not a vote but. --] (]) 04:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

			I text about the salute, trying to keep the wording as neutral as possible. ] doesn't really apply here as there are dozens (if not hundreds, at this point) of ] discussing it. There's a lot of discussion here about personal interpretations but I'm trying to reflect the sources. These are some sources that might have useful context (quotes from historians, reactions from relevant parties like politicians and ADL, far right reactions, etc):
	*Agree it doesn't belong in the lede. ] (]) 19:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

			*
	== Fix the first sentence ==
			*
			*
			*

			Hopefully we can use this as a starting point. ] (]) 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	With regards to:
	"Elon Reeve Musk FRS (/ˈiːlɒn/ EE-lon; born June 28, 1971) is a business magnate and investor."
	This suggestion is very close to undiscussable imo.
	It is absolutely undiscussable that Elon Musk is an entrepreneur.
	This seems to be his most common label, and the label can even be found on book covers too.
	https://imusic.co/books/9798648453920/caleb-bennett-2020-elon-musk-paperback-book
	https://www.saxo.com/dk/elon-musk_paperback_9781761036835?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7N-E3KHr-wIVAwWiAx3wWgINEAQYAiABEgIm-PD_BwE
	Otherwise:
	https://www.biography.com/business-figure/elon-musk
	https://astrumpeople.com/elon-musk-biography/
	"He is not only an entrepreneur but " (they make it sound like it is obvious for everyone)
	https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61234231
	"Born in South Africa, Mr Musk showed his talents for entrepreneurship early, going door-to-door with his brother selling homemade chocolate Easter eggs and developing his first computer game at the age of 12."
	https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/061015/how-elon-musk-became-elon-musk.asp
	On Investopedia they have even put him under the section "Entrepreneurs".
	I can't even find any sources that call him an investor - I can find sources that talk about how "he invested in x company" how he was an "investor in this company". Finding sources that describe him as an investor, in general, seems very difficult and even if such sources exist, they must be very underwhelming compared to the sources that call him entrepreneur.
	I have seen sources that call Elon Musk an inventor (the danish Misplaced Pages call him that actually), but I find that is likely to be disputeable, but I don't know.
	One thing is sure "entrepreneur" should be included in the sentence before "investor".
	"investor" should probably be removed too. "business magnate" can arguably stay or not, but
	"entrepreneur" should come first.
	It is finally worth noting that the Misplaced Pages page used to contain that word since ever, but the word was removed in 2020 september
	:A rare good point from an IP. I would prefer entrepreneur to investor -- he's no Buffett. How do other editors feel? ~ ]] 04:55, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

			BLP absolutely applies here as Musk is obviously alive and the claim is potential slander/libel. Just because a couple of media repeat the claim doesn't make it less so. That the most prominent organisation opposing anti-semitism points out that this wasn't a Nazi salute - and it wasn't - should be indicative. That some however seem to think that "Nazi salute" and "salute" are synonyms is telling. ] ] 15:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Eh. "Investor" points to how he was an early investor in Tesla - a fact that is still lost on most people - and everything that happened with Twitter very recently. ] (]) 14:16, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			:As if the fact that le monde has now canceled Twitter, as have the Spanish government, this is at least as important as he gobbing of creating reactions. ] (]) 16:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:ADL isn't the authority in anti-semitism or nazis. For Instance 'most prominent organisation opposing anti-semitism' doesn't seem to know the difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Anybody with an eye can watch the video and understand what it is. Watch the video of his salutes - both of them if you haven't yet and please stop engaging in bad faith - It's not just a couple of media sources - that's blatantly false. ] (]) 16:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::And the "difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism" - a distinction largely without difference - is relevant to a supposed Nazi salute how? (The Nazis were antisemites, not antizionists.) I have seen the video multiple times. Heck, I've even seen it live. And while the first instance by itself is a bit iffy, the second and what he said after that make the matter clear ... to anybody who does not look for such things. ] ] 18:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::To claim that "anti-semitism vs anti-zionism" is a "distinction without difference" is ''exactly'' the same as claiming "opposing the chinese government is the same as being racist against chinese people". It is asinine, and highlights why the ADL cannot be treated as the definitive source on what does or does not constitute anti-semitism. There is a reason many outspoken jews are anti-zionist, and it's ''not'' because they're "self-hating". ] (]) 23:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::It's relevant because Musk is a zionist. This is a case of ADL resorting to obfuscating the narrative around a blatently obvious anti-semitic Nazi salute In defence of a zionist. Several people have called it out as such.
			Also, the difference between anti-semitism - hatred of an ethnicity and anti-zionism - opposition to a colonial ethnic cleansing and settlement project is clear unless you want to willfully defend the latter using the former. (edit - grammar)] (]) 03:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

			:BLP applies, but does not prevent us from including what the sources say about the salutes. – ] (]) 16:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Investing is an exception for Musk, not a rule. He invested in Tesla and Twitter and then became executive of both, but he is not known to manage a portfolio of investments the way that Warren Buffett or Carl Icahn do, or Paul Allen did. ] (]) 16:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			::Yes, so we can't say he did give a Nazi salute, only that he has been widely accused of having done so. ] (]) 16:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::He invested $44 billion dollars in Twitter. Quite the move for a non-investor.
			:::Right. That is BLP compliant, backed up by pretty much every single source, except the ADL. – ] (]) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Previous recent discussions if anyone is interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Elon_Musk/Archive_1#Investor, https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Elon_Musk/Archive_5#Removal_of_investor ] (]) 16:59, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::No we can't say he's been accused of making a Nazi salute, because he wasn't making one. ] (]) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Yes, it was quite a move for someone who isn't known as an investor, as Musk is not. Whether he has made large investments, or investments at all, is not disputed by anyone. In a Google news search for "Elon Musk" "billionaire investor", the investor referred to is usually someone other than Musk (e.g. Carl Icahn). Besides that there is his statement in 2019 that he did "basically zero investing" notwithstanding his substantial investment in Tesla. I know that he doesn't have the last word here, but isn't rather arrogant for the article to say "oh yes he is" against both his opinion and the dominant opinion of journalists? ] (]) 17:36, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::: That makes no sense. He could have lost both arms and his head and it would still be true that "he's been accused of making a Nazi salute". That he also did it and we saw him do it also makes the allegations quite true. -- ] (]) (PING me) 17:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::Please indicate how we know the "dominant opinion of journalists" in this matter. ] (]) 03:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
			:::::Again it wasn't a Nazi salute or a salute of any kind. The angles were wrong and the associated dialogue in context shows he was thanking the crowd. ] (]) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::Didn't I just give you this?
			:::::: Turn your logic on. He could have scratched his butt with his big toe, and it would still be true that "he's been accused of making a Nazi salute". We document what RS say, not what we believe he did. -- ] (]) (PING me) 18:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::I don't know whether these authors are journalists, but that doesn't matter. You have people writing biographies about him calling him an entrepreneur on book covers.
			:To clarify, I meant that removing this content under BLP doesn't make sense given the widespread coverage in independent reliable sources. Obviously Musk is still covered in general under BLP. ] (]) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::https://imusic.co/books/9798648453920/caleb-bennett-2020-elon-musk-paperback-book
			:I completely agree. It's clearly slander/libel. And I'll quote Elon Musk himself referring to this page in relation to this exact situation. https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881752812276891674 "Since legacy media propaganda is considered a “valid” source by Misplaced Pages, it naturally simply becomes an extension of legacy media propaganda!" ] (]) 17:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::: https://www.saxo.com/dk/elon-musk_paperback_9781761036835?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7N-E3KHr-wIVAwWiAx3wWgINEAQYAiABEgIm-PD_BwE
			::So what, we go by what RS say, not Musky. ] (]) 17:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::: Otherwise:
	::::::: https://www.biography.com/business-figure/elon-musk
	::::::: https://astrumpeople.com/elon-musk-biography/
	::::::: "He is not only an entrepreneur but " (they make it sound like it is obvious for everyone)
	::::::: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61234231
	::::::: "Born in South Africa, Mr Musk showed his talents for entrepreneurship early, going door-to-door with his brother selling homemade chocolate Easter eggs and developing his first computer game at the age of 12."
	::::::: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/061015/how-elon-musk-became-elon-musk.asp ] (]) 03:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::Hardly seems exhaustive of the collective opinion of journalists. ] (]) 03:14, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::Why do you keep talking about journalists? Just say "Hardly seems exhaustive of the collective opinion of ''reliable sources''". Journalists aren't experts in economical matters, actually it's the very opposite, lol. Anyway, I have looked into your discussions. You don't have any reliable sources that call him an investor, anyway. So why are you asking me about an exhaustive list of reliable sources when you don't have any? I don't agree also. That's a pretty big list of reliable sources and includes even authors that have written biographies about him. I could easily find more, by the way. ] (]) 03:26, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::Also making a big investment != being an investor, lol. If you are a big investor, you are likely to be more involved in the company, thus required to have entrepreneurial skills. Elon Musk's fortune comes from owning companies or having large influence/power in companies. I know this is my opinion. But that's why I'm using reliable sources that call him an entrepreneur. You are not, but doing original research and likely failing to understand what it means to be an investor as in general. An investor is someone like Warren Buffet. ] (]) 03:29, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::"I know that he doesn't have the last word here, but isn't rather arrogant for the article to say "oh yes he is" against both his opinion and the dominant opinion of journalists?"
	:::::Indeed ] (]) 03:04, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::I have looked at most of it. It's a terrible discussion because you are not using any sources, but doing original research. Making an investment != investor, as in general. Your example with regards to Twitter shows that he is not an investor, as in general. He invested, later bought it entirely, changed the entire organization, fired half the staff. That's not what an investor does, that's what an entreprenaur does. In any instance, the sources that characterize him just as entrepreneur is overwhelmning compared to sources that describe him as investor. ] (]) 03:09, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

			::{{ping\|Ergzay}} I'd ask that you reinstate my edit as this is the second time you've blanked someone else's text on this topic and (as I've demonstrated) the topic has significant independent coverage from major reliable sources. That content is under discussion does not mean it should not be present at all. ] (]) 17:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	User:130.225.188.131, if you're going to participate in discussions, will you please look at how people format comments in other discussions and try to do likewise? This is not a text message conversation. You don't have to start a new line after every sentence and that's very unpleasant to read.
			:::I will not, and any attempts to add it will be reverted as it's full of misinformation. ] (]) 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::What about {{tq\|In his speech during the second Trump inauguration, Musk twice extended his right arm towards the crowd in an upward angle. The gesture was compared to a ] or ].<ref name="b036">{{cite web \| last=Samuels \| first=Ben \| title=Elon Musk Appears to Make Fascist Salute at Trump Inauguration Rally \| website=Haaretz.com \| date=2025-01-20 \| url=https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-01-20/ty-article/.premium/elon-musk-appears-to-make-fascist-salute-at-trump-inauguration-rally/00000194-8563-d83f-a597-bff78b4e0000 \| access-date=2025-01-21}}</ref><ref name="h866">{{cite web \| last=Wright \| first=George \| title=Elon Musk responds to backlash over gesture at Donald Trump rally \| website=BBC Home \| date=2025-01-21 \| url=https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy48v1x4dv4o \| access-date=2025-01-21}}</ref> Musk denied any meaning behind the gesture.<ref name="i772">{{cite web \| title=Musk accused of giving Nazi salute during Trump inauguration celebrations \| website=Al Jazeera \| date=2025-01-21 \| url=https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2025/1/21/musk-accused-of-giving-nazi-salute-during-trump-inauguration-celebrations \| access-date=2025-01-21}}</ref>}} is "misinformation"? Continue to revert its addition and you'll end up reported to ]. – ] (]) 17:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That's more acceptable as it includes his denial. I would also include ADL. ] (]) 17:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::: – ] (]) 17:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::My apologies... The text I thought I was reverting was the original version that was on the page. I've added the ADL statement. ] (]) 17:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I don't believe the ADL statement is ] for inclusion. ] (]) 18:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::ADL is the foremost center for in the US for determining anti-Jewish sentiment. We use ADL elsewhere in the article. ] (]) 18:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Note that ADL is a yellow source when it comes to antisemitism. ] (]) 18:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::That's a misread. It's a yellow source with regards to antisemitism when Israel/Palestine are involved. "There is consensus that outside of the topic of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, the ADL is a generally reliable source, including for topics related to hate groups and extremism in the U.S." ] (]) 18:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::I think you made a a mistype, as it's ] for anti-semitism when Israel and Zionism are '''not''' involved per ], as you quoted. Anything to do with IPA and it's ]. It otherwise seems due for inclusion with necessary attribution. ] (]) 18:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Ah okay missed that, in that case as long as we name ADL when sourcing them it seems fine. ADL was citied in a bunch of other sources, including the NYT source so it should be fine to keep. ] (]) 18:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Per ], the ADL is a yellow source with antisemitism, excluding Israel and Palestine, and can roughly be taken as reliable. It mentioned it is a case-by-case basis. I feel like it could be phrased somewhere in the article as "the ADL disputes this notion". The green wording for ADL could definitely be clearer though. ] (]) 18:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			Am I going to be the first one to link to ] in this discussion? It's possible that the richest man in the world is a secret nazi based on orthopedic choices but I think we need more than this. ] (]) 19:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			:No one is suggesting for the article to say that Elon is a "secret Nazi". ] (]) 19:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	QRepo202, as you know Misplaced Pages is bound by what reliable sources say, and most of the sources in Musk's case are news reports. I'll repeat: a ready sample of reports that refer to "Elon Musk" and a "billionaire investor" mostly are referring to two or more different people. ] (]) 03:46, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
			::I was being a bit whimsical, apologies. The sourcing is inadequate to extrapolate so much charged intent from a brief clip with no talking. Nazi or nazi adjacent is exceptional. ] (]) 20:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			Obviously this belongs in the article, as it has been widely covered in detail by reliable sources all around the world. We should not say Musk performed a nazi salute as that call is not for us to make. What is a fact, though, is that his raised arm has become a noticeable incident, with many sources comparing it to a nazi salute (and others don't). We are here to report on notable events, not making our personal guesses on what he meant or didn't mean. ] (]) 21:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Thanks. I had never been aware of this issue, haha. ] (]) 04:34, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:Fixed now ... In this section just xD ] (]) 11:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}
	Someone brought up that entrepreneur is redundant because it already lies in the word "business magnate" https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Elon_Musk/Archive_10#Talk_about_the_short_description_%F0%9F%87%BF%F0%9F%87%A6%F0%9F%87%BA%F0%9F%87%B8%F0%9F%87%A8%F0%9F%87%A6. The problem is that a business magnate can also be an investor, for example, Warren Buffet is described as a business magnate here https://en.wikipedia.org/Business_magnate . So this term isn't concise at all, and the fact remains that entrepreneur is Elon Musk's most popular label in RS, and Misplaced Pages are supposed to reflect RS.

			=== Edit war warriors ===
	==" along with deleting his responses to critical tweets from Cher Scarlett " is not backed up by any sources==
	A user called SquareInARoundHole inserted this, but it is not backed up by any sources. The story comes from the very bottom of this article https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jul/15/elon-musk-british-diver-thai-cave-rescue-pedo-twitter "He also responded to one critic who had called the submarine idea “absurd” a week earlier, writing: “Stay tuned jackass.” '''That tweet too was deleted.'''" This story about the "jackass tweet" used to be in the Misplaced Pages article, later removed, and was supported by the source from theguardian. By the way, it (Elon Musk's deletion of "pedo tweet" along with "jackass tweet") fits better with the telling style of this source where it somewhat says that those tweets were deleted all at once https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/is-elon-musk-losing-it-he-just-called-the-diver-who-rescued-12-thai-boys-pedo-1287286-2018-07-16 . Elon Musk's deletion of the tweets that respond Cher has not been connected to be part of this story by any sources.

			Could all edit warriors please stop edit warring now, this is getting ridiculous. @], @], @], @], @].
	SquareInARoundHole inserted this story, making it appear like it would fit smoothly into the story via the word "along", but it's another story, though a story from somewhat the same period I guess (maybe the deletion of those tweets is actually a part of the same story, but no sources back it up, at least not the source actually used). Later the authentic story (deletion of "jackass tweet") was removed from Misplaced Pages. I have looked at the story about Cher, and it is very unclear, lacks details, say nothing about what Elon Musk tweeted, nor Cher tweeted - the only I can find is something from first-hand source https://twitter.com/jeremyminer/status/1518734309921902592/photo/1. It should probably be removed. Back in the days there was a long section about this story "Tham Luang cave rescue and defamation case", but was later deleted, prob. due to political motivation. - Copenhagen University IP <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			I'm aware some of you, the worst offenders, have been warned on your talk page, and others have only engaged in one or two reverts or removal or content (as part of this war), but you all need to stop now. Contributing to a multi-party edit war is still edit warring, regardless of whether you revert once or reach your ] max, and you are disrupting the article and the discussion above for everyone else. ] (]) 18:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Ohhhh. The user was banned too, ofc. Lmfao.
	:https://en.wikipedia.org/User:SquareInARoundHole ] (]) 07:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Ohhh. There is more to it.
	::https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_184
	::Oh god, what are these activists, sorry my language, fucking, doing here. ] (]) 07:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::This could also suggest that maybe all editions made by SquareInARoundHole should be scrutinized. At the other hand, I can't understand either why a person https://www.reddit.com/r/elonmusk/comments/u86csy/guys_we_succeeded_qrep2020_is_now_indefinitely/ who is literally public known for trying to defame Elon Musk on Misplaced Pages and who has been banned before from this page is allowed to edit this page. '''Biographies are written conservatively''', and all evidence suggest that he keeps doing the exact opposite. We have put this Misplaced Pages article under semi-protection, yet we haven't protected it from the most obviously biased person. It's not right. ] (]) 08:11, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

	:~~:::Are~~ ~~Elon~~'s ~~fans~~ ~~organizing~~ to ~~shape~~ ~~this~~ ~~entry~~ ~~and/or~~ ~~undermine~~ ~~editors~~ ~~outside~~ of ~~Misplaced Pages?~~ ] (]) 23:31, 10 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:What? I don't believe I was engaging in a edit war I was just replacing a source with one that was actually reliable. I only reverted one thing. ] (]) 18:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::But yes it does seem like an edit war was possibly starting, thank you for trying to avoid one. ] (]) 18:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC) comment edited ] (]) 18:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Please comment the substance instead of questioning my motives. We have a story in the Misplaced Pages article that isn't backed up by any sources and was added by someone who was banned and was alleged of COI on Cher Scarlett https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1093142001&diffmode=source . In any instance, biographies are written '''conservatively''', thus if Elon Musk fans have sound arguments, then they should be more than welcome. But to be transparent. My opinions about Elon Musk are mixed because of his relationship with the Chinese State including. I like his stance on free speech and transparency, but I question whether he has the integrity it requires. He is a businessman after all. Maybe not. Time will tell. ] (]) 04:02, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
			:I didn't engage in any edit wars and, in fact, didn't even know one was happening until I saw this page once again on my Watchlist. My first edit here was done while I was reading the article trying to find a mention to the Nazi salute by Musk. Sorry for the misclick though. Thanks, ] (]) 18:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I'm not really jazzed about including the Scarlett content, but it is supported by the citation that follows it, : {{tqd\|"after software engineer Cher Scarlett criticized Musk’s handling of the cave incident, the tech billionaire fired back and she was soon being harassed by dozens of Musk’s online fans. He later deleted the posts, but not before Scarlett had to lock down her account"}}. ] (] / ]) 04:28, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
			:CNC, I'm not an "edit war warrior"; not everyone who reverts the addition of X as a source likes to edit war. I've made two reverts, neither of which were related. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The problem is the "along"
			::@] You deleted my comment from this talk page. Please restore it. ] (]) 18:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::''He deleted the tweets'' '', and apologized,''' along '''with deleting his responses to critical tweets from Cher Scarlett.''
			:::Restored it myself manually... ] (]) 18:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I can't find any sources that suggest he deleted those tweets ''along'' with the tweets headed toward Cher Scarlett. Whilst the "jackass tweet" was definitely deleted along - which the Misplaced Pages article used to contain and was backed up by sources. ] (]) 04:38, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
			::::Ah, sorry, there was an edit conflict. Nothing malicious. :) ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Does address your concern? ] (] / ]) 04:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
			:@] Stop throwing accusations around. My most recent edit was not "edit warring". I was restoring @]'s correct edit replacing a source with a better source. I reverted @]'s "]" edit because he has personal issues with the ADL apparently. ] (]) 18:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Yes!
			::I have personal issues with ADL? What?! Why? ] (]) 18:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::My concerns are now of the type that I wrote in the bottom of my first post of this section. But that's another discussion ] (]) 04:46, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::~~And~~ ~~yeah.~~ ~~The~~ ~~user~~ ~~who~~ ~~inserted~~ ~~this~~ ~~was~~ ~~alleged~~ of ~~COI~~ on ~~Cher Scarlett~~ https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=~~1093142001~~&~~diffmode~~=~~source~~ ] (]) 04:49, 11 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:::@] You said it in your own edit. I'll quote your own edit ] (]) 19:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::With respect I think he was referring to the fact the source was linking to a (]) Tweet, which is why I replaced the source with the one from politico. Though after I replaced it he did say "cannot see the pertinence of this" when reverting my edit. ] (]) 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The source was still ADL. It doesn't matter if its hosted on X, but yes moving to a secondary instead of a primary source is better. If his issue was X then his comment doesn't really make sense as its the official press account of said organization. ] (]) 19:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::fair enough. ] (]) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Not going to ] with you, only to clarify that I posted this 1 minute after the revert you are describing, thus is unrelated. You are referenced here for the ]. ] (]) 19:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Six reverts that are largely disconnected from each other... But sure let's handle this through normal processes. You weren't even involved in the editing. ] (]) 19:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have not edited the article a single time, and have sent only three(I think) messages on here. ] (]) 18:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{reflist-talk}}

			== RfC: Should the page describe Musk as a supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes? ==
	== " and comparing Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau to Adolf Hitler." ==
			<!-- ] 03:01, 25 February 2025 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil\|1740452488}}
	I guess this is a very uncontroversial suggestion. Fact of matter is that Adolf Hitler analogies are extremely common on every political party. If we wanna have an insight into Elon Musk's views, we need to understand how he uses the analogy. So insert something like this "comparing Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau to Adolf Hitler in the light of Canada convoy protest". - Copenhagen University IP <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			{{rfc\|bio\|pol\|rfcid=E363D71}}
			Should the page describe Musk as a supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes? ] (]) 01:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			===Proposed Sources===
	:@]
			*{{Cite news \|last=Clayton \|first=Freddie \|date=December 22, 2024 \|title=Elon Musk courts Europe's surging far right \|work=NBC News \|url=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/elon-musk-europe-surging-far-right-rcna185145 \|access-date=January 20, 2025 \|archive-date=January 19, 2025 \|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20250119003701/https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/elon-musk-europe-surging-far-right-rcna185145 \|url-status=live \|quote=Musk has thrown his support behind far-right politicians in the U.K., Italy and Germany, where the leader of the AfD party has evoked Nazi rhetoric. ... What began as a tech mogul railing against political correctness in the U.S. has evolved into what appears to be a global campaign of support for far-right ideologies, forcing governments on both sides of the Atlantic to reckon with Musk's growing political and cultural influence. }}
	:Why? https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elon_Musk&diff=1125261053&oldid=1125251632 ] (]) 21:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			*{{Cite news \|last1=Mac \|first1=Ryan \|last2=Bensinger \|first2=Ken \|date=January 8, 2025 \|title=As Elon Musk Embraces Far Right, Some of Its Top Figures Reject Him \|work=The New York Times \|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/08/technology/elon-musk-far-right.html \|url-access=subscription \|access-date=January 20, 2025 \|archive-date=January 8, 2025 \|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20250108183322/https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/08/technology/elon-musk-far-right.html \|url-status=live \|issn=0362-4331 \|quote=Mr. Musk's falling-out with some on the far right stands out as he increasingly embraces more extreme parties and figures globally, including in Germany, where he has backed a political party with ties to neo-Nazis and plans to host a livestream with one of its leaders on Thursday. }}
	::Sorry, but it's not the first time I have seen you break neutrality policy. ] (]) 21:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			*{{Cite news \|last=Lawless \|first=Jill \|date=January 7, 2025 \|title=Elon Musk helped Trump win. Now he's looking at Europe, and many politicians are alarmed \|work=The Associated Press \|url=https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-europe-politics-germany-uk-f50d69d0d192a2d81c95f5d64c6d4acd \|access-date=January 20, 2025 \|archive-date=January 8, 2025 \|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20250108183646/https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-europe-politics-germany-uk-f50d69d0d192a2d81c95f5d64c6d4acd \|url-status=live \|quote=The Tesla and SpaceX chief executive has endorsed the far-right Alternative for Germany, demanded the release of jailed U.K. anti-Islam extremist Tommy Robinson and called British Prime Minister Keir Starmer an evil tyrant who should be in prison. Many European politicians have been left concerned by the attention. Musk's feed on his social network X is dotted with abusive language — labeling politicians "stupid cretin" and "sniveling cowards" — as well as retweets of far-right and anti-immigrant accounts.}}
	:::Cut it out with the ] bud. ~ ]] 22:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			*{{Cite news \|last1=Siddiqui \|first1=Faiz \|last2=Merrill \|first2=Jeremy B. \|title=Elon Musk's X feed becomes megaphone for his far-right politics \|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/08/11/musk-x-feed-politics-trump/ \|date=August 11, 2024 \|access-date=January 20, 2025 \|archive-date=November 24, 2024 \|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20241124030234/https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/08/11/musk-x-feed-politics-trump/ \|url-status=live\|work=The Washington Post \|issn=0190-8286}}
	::::Why? https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elon_Musk&diff=1125261053&oldid=1125251632 ] (]) 22:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			*{{Cite news \|last1=Darcy \|first1=Oliver \|title=Radicalized by the right: Elon Musk puts his conspiratorial thinking on display for the world to see \|url=https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/19/media/elon-musk-don-lemon-interview-analysis-hnk-intl/index.html \|date=March 19, 2024\|access-date=January 20, 2025 \|work=CNN \|archive-date=December 9, 2024 \|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20241209211716/https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/19/media/elon-musk-don-lemon-interview-analysis-hnk-intl/index.html \|url-status=live\|quote=At this juncture, calling Musk a right-wing shitposter is no longer provocative. It's simply accurate. ... Musk appears to be growing more intolerant of other viewpoints. While elevating right-wing extremists, he simultaneously seeks to destroy trust in credible news sources. }}
	:::::Because it's ] and if you continue to do so I will bring you to the ]. ~ ]] 22:40, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::Well, was this edit ever brought to the talk page? ] (]) 22:52, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::Yep. It was a revert to the status quo, which was agreed upon in a compromise. Visit the archives. ~ ]] 23:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::Here is my account. Nope, it was never agreed on. ] (]) 23:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::] So what?
	:::::::::Consult the archives at https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Elon_Musk/Archive_13 ] (]) 00:22, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::'''He voiced support for the 2022 Canada convoy protest''' and was criticized for comparing Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau to Adolf Hitler.
	::::::::::TechnophilicHippie (talk) 04:25, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::That's fine with me. ~ HAL333 15:27, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::Second. QRep2020 (talk) 22:24, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::Yeah? ] (]) 01:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::If not, we could perhaps talk about it? ] (]) 22:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	Hitler comparisons don't actually come out often from the mouths of prominent people, and Jewish groups like the Anti-Defamation League often object to their usage as trivializing the Holocaust. ] (]) 23:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

			=== Polling ===
	== " Shortly thereafter, Musk announced that SpaceX could no longer supply Ukraine " ==
			{{Not a ballot}}
	The combination of those two sentences are very critical
			==== Support ====
			*'''Support''' This appears to be contentious on this page, and there are constant edit wars over it and disagreements on talk. I believe there are ample reliable sources that describe Musk as a supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes as presented in the proposed sources section above. Note, that we are not saying Musk ''is'' far-right, but that he is a supporter of the far-right, which is what reliable sources describe him as. ] (]) 01:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the average reader would consider that the statements "supports the far-right" and "member of the far-right" to have different meanings. Most think of those two as identical meanings. ] (]) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::You are so close to figuring things out. Just keep rubbing the sticks together. ] (]) 13:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:'''Support''' - per RSs. ] (]) 15:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' This statement is backed by numerous reliable sources. I agree with the above reasoning. ] (]) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' - Misplaced Pages, as a matter of policy, repeats what reliable sources say. Reliable sources say this. Thus we should too. ] (]) 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong Support''': As per reliable sources ] (]) 09:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong Support''': If not even a recorded Nazi salute can convince some that he endorses these types of regimes, I'm genuinely not sure what else he needs to do to change their minds.
			:Being afraid to use labels that are not well-received by some in society is not being neutral, but rather the opposite, because you are artificially trying to make everyone look "normal" by hiding what your prejudice deems to be "bad." ] (]) 10:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''', one only has to look at the situation in which he changed Twitter's policies on doxing, almost overnight, in order to provide cover for the neo-Nazi ] (read the article for more details and sources) when he could not have given a flying fuck about doxing on his platform previously. That aside, per the reliable sources given above. '']''<sup>]</sup> 10:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Yes, that is a wholly uncontroversial description, very well supported by reliable sources. --] (]) 12:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' - Following RS is what we do. ] (]) 12:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong Support''' We go by what reliable sources say, not what editors think about those sources. ] (]) 12:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' ] is met for including this in the body for sure. – ] (]) 16:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Soft support''' per the sources available. Might be worth waiting for academic sources. Surprised we need an RfC on this? ] (]) 17:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Strong Support''': There are more than enough reliable sources suggesting this with verifiable proof of this pattern. There appear to be no reliable sources denying this is happening or contradicting the proposed wording. The opposing argument that "far-right" is a slur lacks any basis, as it is used extensively by reliable sources and there are a number of high-quality Wiki articles dealing with this topic. ] (]) 18:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' as per sources already in the article --] (]) 18:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' We can't say he's a Nazi (yet), so this will have to do (for the time being). ] ] 19:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' Per sources. - ] (]) 19:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Strong Support''' This is a man who openly supports and advocates for neo-nazis in Germany and the UK, performs the nazi salute on stage, is criticised by numerous world leaders in democratic countries for his far-right propaganda, and is described as far-right by a long list of recent and reliable sources. Should be one of the most obvious RfCs ever on WP. ] (]) 20:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Strong Support''' Musk has been extremely vocal in his support of far-right parties and policies abroad. His support hasn't been ambiguous, indirect, or isolated. I'm inclined to believe that someone is a supporter of something when they have a long history of saying that they support that thing, and their statements have been verified and interpreted similarly by multiple third parties. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' Even if Elon Musk didn't make a Nazi salute, there are more than enough proof from reliable sources of him supporting the far-right. ] (]) 21:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Strong support''' Reliable sources clearly state this, with little to no reputable rejection of this description. --] (]) 21:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support'''. We document what RS say. It's that simple. -- ] (]) (PING me) 21:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Strong support''' per other !votes, I also don't see this as controversial, though I understand the need for such an RfC given this is a contentious topic on a highly notable figure. Reliable sources clearly document Musk as a supporter of the far-right in the article body already, in a variety of ways, so an inclusion is merely ] at this point per ], in order to avoid a ]. I also don't see this description as ] words, nor as a slur like ], it's merely an accurate description of the end of the political spectrum that Musk supports. While being far-right can be seen as negative, similar to far-left, there is nothing inherently ] about these labels, even if often associated with a negative connotation. Overall, for balance we go with what a diversity of sources say. ] (]) 22:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong support''' simply because it is objectively and verifiably true. Musk consistently supports political figures who our own Wiki, as well as most verifiable news sources, describe as either right-wing or far-right. There are dozens of available examples where reputable sources document Musk supporting international right-wing/far-right figures and causes:

			:: a right-wing opposition leader in ,
	"It was reported that Musk allegedly spoke with Russian President Vladimir Putin prior to the proposal, which Musk denied. Shortly thereafter, Musk announced that SpaceX could no longer supply Ukraine with Starlink satellite units at its own expense, but he reversed his stance a day later."
			:: a right-wing Prime Minister
			:: a right-wing to far right Prime Minister ,
			:: a right-wing to far-right head of state ,
			:: an imprisoned alt-right figure ,
			:: a far-right leader ,
			:: a far-right party ,
			:: a far-right activist movement ,
			:: a far-right former President ,
			:: a far-right Prime Minister ,
			:: far-right "anti-white genocide" activists in ,

			: Respectfully, the available sources are clear and overwhelming. The discussion closer who assesses for consensus should keep the above evidence in mind. ]]] ] 23:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	It is written in such a way that it suggests that Elon Musk stopped supplying Ukraine with Starlink satellite units because of Putin. The source tells an entirely different story: "Musk on Friday said that in asking the Pentagon to pick up the bill for Starlink in Ukraine, he was following the advice of a Ukrainian diplomat who responded to Musk’s Ukraine peace plan earlier this month, before the letter was sent to the Pentagon, with: “F*** off.” "

			==== Oppose ====
	Obviously, this shall be fixed. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			*'''Oppose''' - Absolutely not! Far-right and far-left are in the eye of the beholder. Heck in the Bay Area Bernie Sanders is middle of the road. Plus a lot of the contention is whether it should be in the lead, not just anywhere. It could say that "Elon Musk has often been a supporter of conservative political parties and ideals." That's a more neutral and understood sentence. ] (]) 03:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Why? ] (]) 09:26, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
			*:@] i like the attempt at neutrality here but the views of elon musk wiki page says he support obama, Clinton and biden. so a time aspect or acknowledgement of past democrat support would be needed to be neutral. ] (]) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::It's actually terribly written. It's not even clear whether Elon Musk announced that he would stop the supply, just after talking with Putin, or just after the critique of the proposal. ] (]) 10:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
			*::Fair enough. ] (]) 21:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::*REPLY TO THE COMMENT BELOW ME(=IP 130.225.188.130) SINCE I CAN'T REPLY TO IT SOMEHOW
			*'''Oppose''' - The only party he's supported that Misplaced Pages itself describes as "far-right" has been the ]. ] is only listed as "right-wing populism". ] of Italy is also described as "right-wing". I think a single data point does not make a trend line. ] (]) 06:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Alright. But we have to make it clear whether it was after talking with Putin or after the critique. We also have to include Elon Musk's own reason. Once again the Misplaced Pages article suffers from bias issues. It depicts him as he is sensitive to critique. That might be true, but we also have to cover that he was told to fuck off, and that is actually what he uses to explain his motivation behind his descision. We can't just assume that Elon Musk is lying. That's bias. But at the other hand, we also have to make it clear that the proposal was in general met with critique such that the reader can make his own opinion on the question "Was it because he felt mocked or is he just too sensitive to critique"? ] (]) 10:28, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
			*:Musk supports ] who is a far-right figure in the UK. ] (]) 06:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::We say Musk denied it, and plenty of RS cover it. Nor do we say he did, it say it was claimed he did. 10:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::~~:We~~ do we ~~said~~ ~~musk~~ ~~denied~~ ~~it,~~ we ~~include~~ ~~his~~ ~~response.~~ ] (]) 10:33, 10 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		*::The statement that is being discussed is "supporter of international far-right political '''parties''', activists, and causes" ] (]) 06:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The statement says "supporter of international far-right political parties, '''activists''', and causes". The way you only highlighted parties is extremely disingenuous ] (]) 09:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Sorry, I might mix stuff now. I talk about that Elon Musk's motivation behind stopping the financing of the satelitte units have to be included too. He expresses his motivation in a tweet that has widely been covered by reliable sources too https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1580819437824839681 ] (]) 10:36, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::~~:As~~ I ~~recall~~ ~~that~~ ~~came~~ ~~after~~ ~~the~~ ~~Uklrianian's~~ ~~response~~ to his ~~statement~~. ] (]) 10:42, 10 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		*::::He did not support Robinson's politics though but pushed for his release under the (mistaken) idea that TR was a political prisoner. ] ] 15:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Sigh... "Support" means you agree with the entire wording of the statement. There are clear issues with the statement given its clear he's not plurally in support of far-right political parties. ] (]) 09:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::You mean his statement on withdrawal of Ukranian satelittes? Nope.
			*:::::Wholly incorrect. Hungary's Fidesz, the Brazilian Liberal Party, Brothers of Italy, the Dutch Party for Freedom, and Argentina's La Libertad Avanza are all described by our own wiki as right-wing to far-right. Musk has supported all of them (either explicitly, or via support of the party leader, which is functionally the same thing). If you disagree that these are "far-right political parties", take it up on the talk page of the respective party and seek consensus to change that characterization instead of having a discussion page war on this one. ]]] ] 23:19, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::https://twitter.com/melnykandrij/status/1576977000178208768?lang=en 3. October. He announced his withdrawal the 14. october. ] (]) 10:46, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - ] using the term "far" right or "far" left are clearly used as a form of slur against someone's character. Much better to use the more neutral term "conservative parties" <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 07:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
	:::::::Yeah, I will not question whether the hypothetical conversation between him and Putin should stay there.
			*'''Oppose''' - it is indeed a weasel-like slur. ] ] 15:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::But we have to make it clear that he announced his withdrawal of satelitte units after the backlash of the proposal, not before the proposal. ] (]) 10:52, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::So he announced this because a Ukrainian official told him to fuck off, that is what you want us to say? And why did the Ukirians official say that? would we not also have to include that? ] (]) 10:55, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1580819437824839681 Yes, but it is a hint too that fits into the situation. He wasn't just met with critique, but anger https://time.com/6219480/elon-musk-ukraine/ - I'm pretty sure that is covered in many reliable sources. He points at this anger and somewhat hints "if you don't respect me then ...". That is my interpretation. But it is not my interpretation that he refers to the anger in his motivation behind his reason, that is Elon Musk himself.
	:::::::::Ofc. we can include the motivation behind the Ukranian official. But I'm pretty convinced he is just responding to his peace proposal. ] (]) 11:03, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::It might not be necessary to include his apparent motivation directly. But we can't just say "after the critique" ... We have to include "After critique and outrage ...". It wasn't just critique. Many reliable sources confirm this, and Elon Musk confirms that in his motivation behind the descision. ] (]) 11:06, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::But I have has my say, time for others. ] (]) 10:55, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::It is a very simple edit which makes it more clear. We don't have to state Elon Musk's motivation directly.
	:::::::::'''Replace "Shortly thereafter" with "Shortly after the condemnation to his proposal"'''.
	:::::::::'''Replace "which was criticized by Ukrainian officials" with "which was condemned by Ukrainian officials with one of the officials telling him to 'fuck off' "'''
	:::::::::Makes it more clear. ] (]) 11:17, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::Something like that. My english is not too good. It can also be more elaborate. ] (]) 11:18, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

			*'''Oppose''' I feel like the proposed sources above are claiming that far right is negative, and to some that may not be the case. The sources are also making assumptions about someone's character who supports far right policies, which is a very bias opinion and not a neutral fact. If it can be done in a more neutral way I think it is Misplaced Pages appropriate, otherwise just sharing his support of Trump and pursuit of politics in that sense will allow those reading to make their assumptions and not provide rhetoric one way or the other. ] 20:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I agree that reliable sources do not link Musk's peace proposal or his later announcement about discontinuing Starlink's services in Ukraine, with the Starlink outages that occurred around the same time. According to the Financial Times and other reliable sources, there were other reasons for the outages , so the current text looks like ], or ]. I recently tried separating the peace plan proposal from the issue, by moving the former to the Views and Twitter section, leaving the latter two in the Politics section . I hope {{u\|HAL333}} and {{u\|Slatersteven}} understand my reasoning now. ] (]) 06:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' reference to far-right but, to some extent, with less objection to a reference of "right wing". All the same a lot of support from the parties concerned are from the working class who simply oppose disproportionate levels of migration and of people who would like to protect their own indigenous cultures, Kirr Hardy who founded the UK Labour party had parallel views. ]] 01:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	**That was not the reason you stated, it was we needed to put his view. Are you now saying this is ]? ] (]) 09:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	*:I'm not sure I understand the context properly since I have had limited time to look at the previous talk pages. I didn't talk about the outages here, but, yea, that context about the outages also completely misses. There is a lot of contexts that misses here, and some of the information is misleading too, for example, how the backlash of his proposal just gets reduced to "critique". The context that doesn't miss here is, strangely, some very hypothetical conversation between Putin and him where we have no idea what they could have talked about either, that subtly and misleadingly can being readen (by readers) as the entire, only, or main reason why he had an interest in this withdrawal - which is not balanced in any way and actually propagandist, lol. It has to be rewritten ] ] (]) 12:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	*:Oh, because the issue of expensiveness comes from the outages, but the Misplaced Pages article doesn't even talk about that - it just mentions the expensiveness (but uses a source that elaborates on that, yeah). The WK article says nothing. It even makes it look like he just didn't bother with the expenses any longer. The paragraph is terribly non-neutral, unbalanced, misleading, ambiguous, etc. It should definitely be rewritten. ] (]) 12:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

			===Discussion===
	==More bias in the Misplaced Pages article " Musk also claimed falsely that children "are essentially immune" to COVID-19"==
			*'''Comment''' — I'm dissatisfied with the quantity of sources here; in order for me to support this, I would need a greater number of sources, preferably academic. The fifth source from Oliver Darcy is an analysis and effectively constitutes an opinion. <span style="font-family: monospace;">] (he/him)</span> 05:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	It misses that Twitter actually concluded that Musk's statement was not definite misinformation because of the context and therefore the tweet couldn't be
			*:Academic sources don't just appear overnight. While they are always preferable, we should go with the very best sources at the time. '']''<sup>]</sup> 10:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	deleted. It is also worth noting whether it is misinformation depends on Elon Musk's understanding of the word "immune". He posted a graph that showed that no children had died in Italy which suggests his understanding of immune was not the medical one. But the medical definition of "immune" isn't the only one. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/immune?q=immune definition 2 and definition 3 - these definitions are more open to interpretation. I know this is somewhat original research I'm carrying out here. But point is that we need more context here. -Copenhagen University IP <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:40, 10 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			*:While I see your point here, that's not the list of sources, that's just the proposed list of sources that would be used for such a description. There are plenty more both within the article and elsewhere. We don't require academic sources for a political description, when there is a diversity of sources and near-consensus by some of our best new-org RS. It would be helpful for someone to produce a table of sources that back up this statement, not that it's required for consensus either it seems. ] (]) 22:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:It is the only definition that maters when we are discussing medical issues. ] (]) 12:51, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' - Depends where it is placed. Throwing in the 1st lead paragraph would be undue --] (]) 18:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::It is also worth noting
			*:Agree. Put it in the Politics section if anything. ] (]) 19:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::"Twitter told Business Insider that Musk's tweets didn't violate its rules when looking at the overall context and conclusion. The firm said it would continue to consult its fact-checking partners to identify misinformation that was most harmful." As I understand it, the conclusion was not aligned with what he said - that makes sense because the graph didn't show that no children had been infected in Italy. It's definitely a problem that this context is hidden away. We need to embrace neutrality and cover both sides. ] (]) 12:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	~~:::So?~~ As we do ~~not~~ ~~say~~ he ~~broke~~ ~~Twitter's~~ ~~rules~~ ~~the~~ ~~fact~~ ~~they~~ ~~say~~ he ~~did~~ ~~not is irrelevant.~~ ] (]) 13:05, 10 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		*'''Comment''' We seem to be at 23-6 in support after 1 day. Does this qualify for snowball? ] (]) 03:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I wouldn't say so, but there is consensus. ] (]) 05:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Why aren't you adhering to the principles of '''biographies must be written conservatively and neutrally'''? Both sides shall be covered. It has been marked as misinformation by some sources - almost by no realiable sources by the way. BBC, for example, doesn't call it misinformation. You are reducing the matters here and ignoring that Twitter's rules were to combat misinformation. Twitter concluded also that the tweet was not definite. A statement that is not definite is not false (or at least not necessarily false) ] (]) 13:31, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::OK, so if you can find a source that says that Elon Musk was right we can include the as a counterpoint to him being wrong. But him not breaking Twitters rules is not a counter point to him saying something that was not true. ] (]) 13:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC)@
	::::::Again, you are reducing everything. https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-misinformation-elon-musk-children-coronavirus-2020-3?r=US&IR=T
	::::::''Twitter said it would suppress (emphasis ours): "Denial of established scientific facts about transmission during the incubation period or transmission guidance from global and local health authorities, such as 'COVID-19 does not infect children because we haven't seen any cases of children being sick.'' But couldn't conclude it broke that ruling, but you know better than professionals, apparently. Also, you are implying a statement is either true or false, but that is not true, for example "I love the weather today". In mathematics, for example, a statement can be "undefined" or "not well-defined" - but that is not a false statement. I think it's important that a few journalists have called it misinformation. But it's also important that Twitter ''whose job, including, is to tackle down these issues'' couldn't conclude that the statement was definite or that it broke the rules that disallow the specific misinformation in question. ] (]) 14:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/elon-musk-wrongly-tweets-kids-are-immune-to-coronavirus-twitter-is-okay-with-it-1657807-2020-03-20
	:::::::the word "definite" can be found here including. ] (]) 14:18, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::Elon tweeted medical misinformation and was called out for it. Therefore, {{tq\|Musk also claimed falsely that children "are essentially immune" to COVID-19.}} is factual and neutral. The end. – ] (]) 15:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::It isn't the end unless you ignore every source that cover this subject that talks about how Twitter couldn't conclude that.
	:::::::::''Twitter said it would suppress (emphasis ours): "Denial of established scientific facts about transmission during the incubation period or transmission guidance from global and local health authorities, such as ''''COVID-19 does not infect children because we haven't seen any cases of children being sick'''. '' But couldn't conclude it broke that ruling which I told you.
	:::::::::You are cherry-picking information which certainly isn't a way of writing biographies neutrally or conservatively. Yes, it is factual that he wrote that. It is somewhat also factual that it was said in an overarching context where he contradicts himself - thus isn't actually necessarily stating that, but writing it, definitely, yes. That's the point. We need the context. We should not delete anything here, but we need the context. ] (]) 15:31, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::Twitter community notes is not the arbiter of what is or is not medical misinformation, and the sentence doesn't say anything about twitter. The full context is that Elon tweeted medical misinformation and was called out for it. – ] (]) 15:34, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::We have no sources of medical experts calling it misinformation, anyway. Twitter also said
	:::::::::::'''Twitter told Business Insider that Musk's tweets didn't violate its rules when looking at the overall context and conclusion. The firm said it would continue to consult its fact-checking partners to identify misinformation that was most harmful.''' Strange, we can't find any medical experts calling it out in any sources. Instead we rely on journalists whose '''area of expertise''' isn't within that area ] (]) 15:39, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT TWITTER RULES BUT YOU. It is medical misinformation. Does work for you as a "medical expert"? It should, because this isn't controversial in medicine. – ] (]) 15:55, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::The article you sent me doesn't say that anywhere. It seems unbelievably unintuive for you, but if you say x and later deny x, then you haven't said x. But if you insist on isolating the context only looking at the statement of x, then yes, then you can easily make Elon Musk look like an idiot. That's why we need the context instead of cherrypicking. ] (]) 16:03, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::It literally says that in the last sentence of the first paragraph. Elon doesn't need our help to make him look like an idiot, he does it on his own when he says that kids are "essentially immune" to something that they are not immune to. – ] (]) 16:24, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::You are right, my bad. But it doesn't change my point. The source that is used in the Misplaced Pages article from Axion already calls it misinformation and actually seems to be somewhat the only reliable source that calls it misinformation, so no news. Also you forget that Buzzfeed isn't a realiable source. It's a journalist who doesn't have any medical education. You also forget that Buzzfeed is very left-wing https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/buzzfeed/
	:::::::::::::::https://www.allsides.com/news-source/buzzfeed-media-bias . My point still stands anyway that Twitter, a team of employees who are educated in moderation (and not a, frankly, fucking journalist), couldn't conclude that Elon Musk broke their ruling on ''"Denial of established scientific facts about transmission during the incubation period or transmission guidance from global and local health authorities, such as 'COVID-19 does not infect children because we haven't seen any cases of children being sick. '' ... they even refer to the conclusion of Elon Musk's tweets so that is somewhat the factual content side of Elon Musk's tweet.
	:::::::::::::::And I have to stress a thing that I didn't see myself. Elon Musk said children were '''''essentially''' immune''.
	:::::::::::::::"Essentially immune" isn't a medical term. ] (]) 16:47, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::::::::::::Buzzfeed News is a reliable source. Check ], it's in green. And Musk using a non-medical term to say something medical just demonstrates the nature of the disinformation. – ] (]) 18:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::::::::::::::I see. They have two departments. Still doesn't change my point. It also appears like the media outlets that call it misinformation are overwhelmingly left-wing. I can only find Indiatoday who appears to not have a left-wing bias. No, it doesn't demonstrate the nature of misinformation - it demonstrates the nature of undefined statements and statements that reflect how people casually talk with each other.
	:::::::::::::::::''Broadening our definition of harm to address content that goes directly against guidance from authoritative sources of global and local public health information. '''Rather than reports, we will enforce this in close coordination with trusted partners, including public health authorities and governments, and continue to use and consult with information from those sources when reviewing content.'''''
	:::::::::::::::::Twitter dealt with this professionally, in teams, in coordination with experts, but couldn't conclude what I have told you million of times. But I'm not saying that those individual journalists don't have a right to their interpretation, but clearly their interpretation doesn't stand alone. ] (]) 03:38, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

			== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 January 2025 ==
	:We have been over this many times. It stays. ] (]) 15:50, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::It appears like you haven't read anything. I have never wanted it removed. ] (]) 15:54, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

			{{edit extended-protected\|Elon Musk\|answered=yes}}
	::There is no bias. The part about misinformation is fine as is. There is nothing to correct or contextualize further. ] (]) 17:47, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	~~:::I~~ ~~guess~~ we ~~could~~ ~~add~~ ~~that~~ ~~this~~ ~~COVID~~ ~~misinformation~~ ~~doesn't~~ ~~violate~~ ~~Twitter~~ ~~TOS,~~ ~~but~~ I ~~don't~~ ~~see~~ the ~~need~~ ~~for~~ ~~that~~. ~~– ~~]~~ ~~(]) 18:23, 10 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		On January 20th, 2025 Elon Musk displayed the Nazi salute twice during the United States presidential inauguration telling the world he is a Nazi. ] (]) 04:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			: {{not done for now}}:<!-- Template:EEp --> Being discussed further up the page at {{slink\|\|Controversial Salute}}. ''']''' <small>(''she/her'' · ] · ] · ] · ])</small> 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Totally unneeded. ] (]) 18:27, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::TOS on "Denial of established scientific facts about transmission during the incubation period or transmission guidance from global and local health authorities, such as 'COVID-19 does not infect children because we haven't seen any cases of children being sick." Yeah. But there is more to it. They have also made statements on the matter to the media. Why do I have to tell you this over and over, but you simply reduce it to "not breaking TOS"? Which TOS? How didn't it break the TOS when Twitter's TOS clearly state this? All those question? Every news article do adress these questions, but you don't. Misplaced Pages articles are not meant to be more biased than Buzzfeed News or than every single article on the matter. ] (]) 03:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::'''You don't see the need for that, despite every single article that covers the subject sees the need for it?''' ] (]) 03:58, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

			== Musk's role in DOGE ==
	It is lovely how anything now, even the dryest, briefest descriptions of Elon Musk's online fails, gets called Misplaced Pages Bias, and the people doing it can't even point out anything unfactual about what they're objecting. ] (]) 23:28, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

			I’m confused about what Musk will lead and what his title will be. Will he head the entire "]" (formerly the United States Digital Service) or just the "]" (the "U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization", a temporary organization within the United States DOGE Service)?
	:So you admit that it is the dryest and briefest descriptions of Elon Musk's fails, yet find it notable enough to be included in the Misplaced Pages article. Hmmmmm? Oh, you suggest it should be removed altogether? Yeah, possibly.
	:'''we will enforce this in close coordination with trusted partners, including public health authorities and governments, and continue to use and consult with information from those sources when reviewing content.'''
	:I still don't acknowledge that individual journalists have more saying here than a complex of professionals in social media moderation and public health authorities. - At least not to such an extent that it isn't worth including the opinion of a complex of professionals in social media moderation and public health authorities. But I can easily point out that it is unfactual, but we aren't allowed to do original research here, so I will refer to Twitter's statements on the matter. But to make it short, it's unfactual because the statement in question is not coherent with the context, his conclusion, and not even his statement is well-defined because he uses a word open for subjective interpretation "essentially immune" - somewhat in the same way as 1 divided with 0 is not false, but undefined. ] (]) 03:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Of course, any statements about this on Misplaced Pages should be cited to ]. But for me, I cannot shirk from saying that my five year old unvaccinated granddaughter got COVID-19. Then her vaccinated parents got breakthrough cases. Then her double vaccinated and triple boosted grandparents got the virus after 2-3/4 years of studiously avoiding it. Her grandmother with significant preexisting conditions ended up in the hospital for five days and is struggling to recover another five days later. We do not know whether we got it from our granddaughter or a local grocery store. But extrene caution is still called for. ] (]) 06:32, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::''Of course, any statements about this on Misplaced Pages should be cited to WP:MEDRS''
	:::Agree! I understand you man. I do also find Elon Musk's statement unprofessional (also considering the context) ] (]) 06:47, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

			And what will his title be?
	== Copenhagen University IP ==

			* The only mentions a "USDS Administrator."
	What is happening with the deluge of messages from Copenhagen University IP? ] (]) 10:03, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	:This is not the place to discuss user actions. ] (]) 10:07, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	:Hey. I have finally made an account. I deleted a comment from myself because I misunderstood something. I tend to sometimes not reading carefully enough. My bad, I lack some experience in talks. I will also start to use Grammarly after this post. Anyway, where is the right place to discuss user actions? ] (]) 17:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

			* The mentions an "Administrator of the United States DOGE Service."
	== Musk's preferred pronouns ==
	{{archive top\|1=]. Or the ]s. – ] (]) 19:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)}}
	Musk has stated today that his preferred pronouns are Prosecute/Fauci. Can someone with rights to edit please update the pronouns in this page? Currently it's referring to prosecute's old pronouns. ] (]) 17:58, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	:No, normally I would say yes, but this is clearly such a piss take no way. ] (]) 18:00, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	::What is your proof that Elon stated his pronouns in bad faith? Is there a metric that we're supposed to use to judge whether they are someone's actual preferred pronouns? ] (]) 18:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	:Don't waste people's time. ] (]) 18:27, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Is it a waste of time to update Misplaced Pages pages of people who have changed their pronouns? ] (]) 18:48, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

			* The mentions an "Administrator of the Department of Government Efficiency."
	*Fuck off. ] (]) 19:16, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
			] (]) 13:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			== Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry ==
	:New to Misplaced Pages. Is there any avenue to report abuse such as this message? ] (]) 19:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}

			There is most likely no Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry. Elon Musk's paternal grandmother had Dutch ancestors (Dutch Free Burghers). Dutch relates to the Netherlands where the majority of white settlers in SA came from. Pennsylvania Dutch on the other hand relates to the German speaking religious group (Dutch here means Deutsch/German) who live mainly in Pennsylvannia and a few other places in the US and Canada. They came from Germany and Switzerland. ] (]) 13:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	==The entire sentence "Musk's statements have provoked controversy " is not backed up by any sources==
			: Both could be true, free Dutch through South Africa on the paternal side and Pennsylvania Dutch/Deutsch through America on the maternal side. ] (]) 03:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	Not backed up by any source. I have checked the two first sources and the third one for the two statements respectively. None of those articles refer to his statements as being a cause of controversy. The second statement (about the Canada convoy) is not just backed up in that way that the statement isn't characterized as cause to a controversy, the statement itself is not anywhere to find in the article! You might subjectively interpret the first statement as a controversy, but that's not allowed, and even if it seemingly is intuitively self-evident (which I don't agree with at all), it isn't allowed because the sources lose its reliability on this matter because that would suggest that ''many think it is a bad idea'' according to Oxford Dictionary, but that statement is within the expertise of a polling institute (or something alike) because it deals with numbers. It's also a contentious label. Rewrite the bullshit. Ofc. this Misplaced Pages article information is also from 2022, lol.

			==Number of children==
	'''EDIT:''' I have looked more into it. The story was written "elaborately" and sourced as well back in times: "In February 2022, apparently supporting the convoy protesters, Musk tweeted and later deleted a meme comparing Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to Adolf Hitler." Later an activist shorted it down to Elon Musk comparing Justin Trudeau to Adolf Hitler without the context, and the source (a Reuters article) was also replaced with another Reuters article. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:38, 12 December 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:It's sourced in the body. ~ ]] 21:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::"The policy on sourcing is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations."
	::] ? ] (]) 22:07, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:If it is sourced in the body, it does not need to be sourced in the lead paragraphs. Perhaps consult ] more closely. ] (]) 22:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::You link me a page dealing with WK policy, yet "Sourced in the body" isn't a term in the WK policy, please elaborate, instead of creating your own private language.
	::If I understand it correct, it is implicitly justified considering the entire context. Contentious labels are definitely not justified in the body. That's even directly said in ] "Rather than describing an individual using the subjective and vague term controversial, instead give readers information about relevant controversies.''' Make sure, as well, that reliable sources establish the existence of a controversy and that the term is not used to grant a fringe viewpoint undue weight'''." ] (]) 22:21, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::"Body" is the term and it is used many times in ]. The specifics of citation use in the lead are available at ].
	:::And the sources cited in the body of the article certainly establish the existence of controversies surrounding the man. ] (]) 22:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::They need to connect controversies to the statements in question. Especially when they are contentious labels.
	::::By the way,
	::::'''Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead.''' ] (]) 22:33, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::I would not describe what you are doing as a challenge. Regardless, there was a recent Talk discussion about the sentence where the consensus was that the current wording is fine. ] (]) 22:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::Go check out ] -- no source is required in the lead to support that he has made racist/racially charged statements. ~ ]] 22:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::That's not a statement about Donald Trump or label on Donald Trump, it's a statement that some people (where the subject ''some people'' is hidden away via the passive verb ''have been'') have characterized many of his comments as racially charged, etc. That's indeed a more considerable way actually. It's also different because the sentence is general and don't refer to specific events. Anyway, why do you not have sourcing for statement 2? Elon Musk never said that according to the source in question. ] (]) 23:07, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:The article is full of well-verified controversy. "Have provoked controversy" is actually the understatement of the year. ] (]) 22:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Ah, so the entire article fails the ]? ] (]) 22:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::? ~ ]] 22:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::], you seem to have missed the "well-verified" part. I'm going to repeat some of the things that were said here, and I'll add a note or two for your and our benefit. First, citations in the lead are not necessary, but the lead should summarize well-verified material. Second, unsourced "controversy" isn't immediately a matter of POV; it's first of all a matter of being unverified, so if I'm reading your misreading correctly, you pointed at the wrong problem. Third, "have been" is not a "passive verb" (there is no "passive verb" in English, and "have been" is two verbs), but I understand what you mean; however, the lead should summarize, and if the material in the article is well-verified and properly ascribed, there is no problem with such a summary. The sentence is general: yes it, because it is the lead.{{pb}}Since I left my note for you, a few hours ago, you made a dozen edits, and two editors had to come by and explain things to you. That's what I was pointing at on your talk page. Please be advised that uninvolved administrators (such as myself) have a variety of tools at our disposal to prevent or stop disruption on this and other such articles--the notification on your talk page, which you removed, provided valuable information about those tools. Thank you. ] (]) 23:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Hey, thanks for your contribution. I can't find the term "well-verified" in the ] sorry. I have never questioned whether citations in leads are necessary or not. Second, I'm not sure about which "unsourced pov" you refer to. True, passive voice, I forgot the third verb ''characterized''. Okay, the lead shall summarize, cool. I was not talking about the lead, but the first paragraph in ''Personal views and Twitter usage section''.
	::::Anyway, the inline-citation source does not back up the Adolf Hitler comparison story. ] (]) 01:12, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

			The article in two instances gives the number of Elon Musk's children as either "12" (infobox) or as "at least 12". However, if one goes through the number of his relationships and the offspring stemming from each, I count three with Justine Wilson (one deceaed plus the twins), three with Grimes (though one by "surrogacy") and three Shivon Zilis.
	== No longer the wealthiest person in the world ==

			<strike>Searching through the archive, I have found that the article used to say ""Musk met his first wife, Canadian author Justine Wilson, while attending Queen's University. They married in 2000 and separated in 2008. Their first child, son Nevada Alexander Musk, died of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) at the age of 10 weeks. They share custody of their five surviving children, all sons.". So they had an additional three children, which indeed brings the number up to twelve. But these children should be mentioned in the article as well. This used to be sourced information that should be restored, with the sources given (in the archive these are only numbers).</strike>
	Forbes now lists ] as the richest, with Musk falling to second place. — ] <sup>(])</sup> 23:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

			However, there is no justification to go beyond the 12 and speculate about "at least 12", if there is even as little as the claim that additional children exist. Note that both instances are sourced with a single article (https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2024-elon-musk-population-collapse-baby-push/), which expressly only mentions the children with Grimes and Shivon Zilis. That's too little to speculate about additional children. ] ] 15:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I would let it sit for a few days as the Tesla stock price is volatile. ] (]) 23:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

			:I just realised that I have not seen that the article speaks of twins and triplets. So the three additional children were included after all. Still, the arguments against speaking of "at least" stands. Hence I have removed these words. ] ] 15:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	Why when it is presently inaccurate information? Bernard Arnault's page lists him as the richest person right now, so as of this moment there is conflicting information on wikipedia. ] (]) 16:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

			== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 January 2025 (2) ==
	:I agree here; as long as both lists are in agreement for the top rankings, the page should be updated as the information is available as this is often important to one's status and it doesn't hurt to stay on top of the data. Is there some policy against this? I like the version of the lead from as a concise way to display the current standings as they are. ] (]) 07:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

			{{edit extended-protected\|Elon Musk\|answered=yes}}
	WHy we should not include Newsy content, it changes. ] (]) 16:58, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
			Elon Musk uttered the words 'my heart goes out to you' after his 'supposed' Nazi salute. The article is clearly trying to mislead the reader. No serious news organisation is suggesting it was a Nazi salute. Only Wokepedia. ] (]) 18:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:This is why we used to say "A centibillionaire, Musk is one of the richest people in the world." We really shouldn't have something that changes every day, every hour. To a certain degree, these net worth claims are just somewhat arbitrary estimates. ~ ]] 17:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	::I’m in favour of restoring this phrasing (although change richest to wealthiest). Perhaps we should ask other editors? ] (]) 20:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

	:~~::I~~ ~~agree~~ ~~with~~ ~~this.~~ ] (]) 20:42, 13 ~~December~~ ~~2022~~ (UTC)		:No news source? Are you sure about that? ] ] ] 19:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Rejected''' As the instructions above clearly say: {{tpq\|This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".}}. ] (]) 19:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::"Wealthiest" is an improvement. ~ ]] 21:40, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
			*:But he is right. It should absolutely have proper context and not be left hanging with conjectured bias. {{ping\|Chrisyking}} needs to write exactly what should be said and where it should be placed in the article. Only then can a request be granted. ] (]) 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

			:There are '''MANY''' news sources describing it as a NAZI salute. Please specify what changes you want to make. ] (]) 01:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Per my now-reverted edit: We think that the second he's no longer the richest person in the world, the information of his estimated net worth suddenly becomes irrelevant? Almost every other billionaire in the top ten has a net worth listed in their leads (an estimation per both--or either--''Forbes'' and ''Bloomberg''), but Musk, now the second-richest person, shouldn't have that same information listed? It's ridiculous. ~ ] (]) 01:04, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::Almost every billionaire has it in their lead. If you're going to take it off of here, go take it off all the others, ], ], etc... it's not that big of a deal ] (]) 01:10, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::I'll even take it a step further: Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Buffett, Ellison, Balmer, Page, Ambani, literally all of them have net worths listed in their leads. lol. ~ ] (]) 01:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::And they shouldn't. I'll open a community-wide RfC if need be. But, per ], that's an irrelevant argument. ~ ]] 01:32, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
	::The net worth estimate is constantly changing and is highly volatile (violating ]). Thus, we will never be able to give readers an instantly accurate number. ]. The exact value isn't notable. The reader doesn't care if Musk is worth $185 billion or $197 billion. The difference is arbitrary. What's notable is that Musk has a lot of frigging money (hence centibillionaire). Furthermore, ''Forbes'' and ''Bloomberg'' are in constant disagreement as to the exact value of his net worth. As of this writing, ''Forbes'' claims it and Bloomberg claims its . That’s a pathetically imprecise $10 billion difference. We cannot claim to know the true value to any degree of uncertainty and to do so is misleading to the reader. Choosing one over the other is ultimately arbitrary and violates NPOV. Let's leave the nitty gritty for the "Wealth" subsection, and grive the reader a summary in the lead. ~ ]] 01:27, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
	::In addition to the fact that our colleague , the on net worth values in IBs may also be of interest. ~ ]] 01:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

	== Elon Musk ~~as Chief Engineer of SpaceX~~ ==		== Elon Musk Gif ==

			] If we are going to have something like this I suggest it should be a video which includes audio saying the quote he made directly after making the Gesture ""My heart goes out to you. It is thanks to you that the future of civilization is assured,""] I think we should do this to give context and to allow the readers to come to their own conclusion. ] (]) 21:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	There doesn’t seem to be any source for this claim. I only see articles that refer to him as CEO/CTO of Space Exploration Technologies. ] (]) 06:10, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
	:It's in the ''Atlantic'' article. ~ ]] 06:15, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

			:To begin with, it's ridiculous this made it into Misplaced Pages. This is no longer an ecyclopaedia but a propaganda board. ] (]) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Jet ==
			:I uploaded it as a gif to make the fair-use case stronger (non-free content should generally be short and low-quality). I think it's enough to have in the caption that he said "My heart goes out to you" after making the gesture. Since the video is copyrighted, we need to explain how any parts of it we use couldn't just be replaced by text. <span style="font-family:'Courier New'">''' – ]'''<sub>(]•])</sub></span> 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It is a muckraking smear to suggest that the socially awkward Musk was making a anti semitic salute. When I type "Musk visit to" into a search engine, the first auto complete option given is "... Israel". Please can Misplaced Pages editors not lose their minds. Let's research aeound issues and not fall for stilted media propaganda. ]] 23:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please stick to making suggestions for the article and refrain from using this talk page for general discussion. <span style="font-family:'Courier New'">''' – ]'''<sub>(]•])</sub></span> 00:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That's a fair enough argument. I added the caption "My heart goes out to you" after I made/started this discussion about the gif. I'm happy as it is now. I do have one more thing I would like to bring up on the talk page of the image itself. Thank you. ] (]) 00:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I'm also happy with the caption as it stands. <span style="font-family:'Courier New'">''' – ]'''<sub>(]•])</sub></span> 00:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The section "Accusations of antisemitism" is biased. A section on Musk's views in regard to Jewish people could be more balanced so as to present a variety of content. ]] 00:26, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::: or ] then. <span style="font-family:'Courier New'">''' – ]'''<sub>(]•])</sub></span> 00:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::] suggested above that the content should be replaced by "a video which includes audio". I say that it should just be removed.Comments by that anti-defamation league (whose very purpose is to combat anti-Semitism) have supported Musk and might otherwise be included. As also reported in media hey said:
			:::: <br>There should be a way to present content with a ] ]] 01:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You should have made it more clear in your first comment that you specifically think the gif should be removed. Regardless, I pretty firmly disagree. Including the gif allows readers to make up their own mind as to whether or not Musk was doing a Nazi salute. If you believe it's only an "awkward gesture", then you should want it included so that readers can see for themselves. <span style="font-family:'Courier New'">''' – ]'''<sub>(]•])</sub></span> 01:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Please do not tell me what I should want. A silent rendering of an event in a context that at no point mentioned jews, in regard to a figure who has widely supported jews, is biased. Anyone who was not simply out to smear Musk should want it removed, imo. ]] 01:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::We go by ]. We do not make our own evaluations or do our ]. ] (]) 01:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::" expressed outrage over </nowiki>]?" Perhaps a question that I hope might be raised in reflection of balance. ]] 02:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::A good example of why X is not a reliable source. ] (]) 02:26, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::There's a difference between still photos and video. Full videos of those Democrats making those gestures are on social media and are clearly not Nazi salutes. Libs of TikTok attempting ]. – ] (]) 02:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::That's why we're including a gif and not a still image. Regardless of your personal opinion, the gesture was widely commented on and should therefore be included in the article. <span style="font-family:'Courier New'">''' – ]'''<sub>(]•])</sub></span> 04:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

			=== Placement of reference to Musk.s inauguration gesture in a section such as on views on immigration ===
	{{re\|Slatersteven}}{{re\|Jatlin1}} I am not sure how aware you are of the account ] and its significance. It has been covered by ''national'' news media for years, sometimes several times in a row, and has been a personal target of Elon Musk since its creation. The account belongs in the mention about Musk's jet as it is intensely notable for tracking the jet's movements. As well, the account has a high degree of secondary notability for its relations to sustainability, freedom of speech, and how Musk has handled his new Twitter ownership. Any attempt to remove this oversight reads as a whitewash effort in line with Musk's own to ban the account. ] ] 02:29, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
			Musk clearly has strong and varied views. While many religions may be regarded as supremacist and arguably the monotheistic religions particularly so, as mentioned Musk has regularly made positive statements about Jews and Judaism. In contrast to this he seems to me to be relatively sceptical in regard to, for instance, Islam, Perhaps this may be evident in his X references to topics including those related to Tommy Robinson.
	:It's clearly notable and due. ~ ]] 03:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	::'''What about mention of Musk's promise NOT to ban the account?'''
	::Also highly relevant, and probably worthy of inclusion:
	::{{tq\|In November 2022, after Musk bought Twitter, he said: "My commitment to ] extends even to not banning the account following my plane, even though that is a direct personal safety risk".<ref name=O'Brien>{{cite news \|last1=O'Brien \|first1=Matt \|title=Twitter changes rules over account tracking Elon Musk’s jet \|url=https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-technology-business-social-media-13119e8cc9bbc15a886369263b29087a \|access-date=December 15, 2022 \|work=] \|date=December 15, 2022}}</ref>}} Quoted from the ] article. Cheers! ] (]) 04:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	:''In 2003, Musk said his favorite plane he owned was an L-39 Albatros. He uses a private jet owned by Falcon Landing LLC, a SpaceX-linked company, and acquired a second jet in August 2020. The jet's heavy use of fossil fuels—it flew over 150,000 miles in 2018—has received criticism. His flight usage is tracked on social media through ElonJet. The Twitter iteration of the account was blocked in December 2022.''
	:It's not about whitewashing efforts, it's about putting the information in the right place. This entire paragraph doesn't fit into "wealth". Put it somewhere else. This information lacks tons of context too which you amusingly even point out yourself - you mention free speech, how Elon Musk has handled his new Twitter ownership, etc., yet this context isn't to be found anywhere. I still think the Twitter policies are on its way to be settled, etc., and we don't know what's really up and down before 2023 on this matter. But if you really want to include it, then cover the context properly. ] (]) 04:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::None of these are valid reasons to remove the content. If you disagree with the location, move it, add more context, or take it to talk. I agree more context could be relevant in this page, even if most of it is already covered over at ]. And it ''is'' relevant to multiple portions of this article, from leadership of Twitter to personal wealth through his airplane usage, to his general controversies and criticisms. We can't list this in all those places, so we have to choose the most relevant area. For me, that was the area that already talked about his jet. ] ] 04:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Agreed. Especially the supposed "free speech" claims by Musk. Important for the record on many fronts. Cheers! ] (]) 04:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::Yep. But we have to cover it in its entirety. For example the unbans of the scientists who were critical of the lockdowns (many of which who signed https://gbdeclaration.org/) and the unbans of conservative voices is also an important subject that tell us about how Elon Musk look on free speech. He has also talked about deamplifying negativity just like the former Twitter organization somewhat did on hate speech, but in contrast he says he will make it transparent, though he hasn't proved that yet - we will have to wait til 2023. His views on doxxxing and impersonating are also important, but question is also whether these policies weren't already in place before he took over Twitter? My impression is that impersonation policies were already in place, but not doxxxing, that's actually something new he introduced. He did break his promise indeed, but we also have to include the context of how his family was stalked which led to the final decision. ] (]) 04:56, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::::You should probably start a new thread to discuss these other issues. Cheers! ] (]) 05:05, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	::::::The problem is that it is a clear violation of ] ] (]) 11:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	:I fail to see what this tells us about Musk. If the suggestion is "it tells us about his hypocrisy" then let's reword it to be about this, not one spat. But I do not see the relevance of just his dispute with one user on Twitter. ] (]) 10:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Yeah and if it is about hypocrisy which is the about the entire Twitter+free speech debate then the subject should be covered properly such that we don't violate ] . And it shouldn't be covered under "wealth" lol. ] (]) 12:01, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::If anything this is really about Twitter, so should have a paragraph there with one sentence (here) linking to it. Something like "and after his claim of protecting free speech musk was accused of hypocrisy (link to twitter article section)". ] (]) 12:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	Some news this morning for assessment: '''' Regards, ] (]) 13:07, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

			Perhaps there is a possibility that, despite Musk's many pro Jewish references, he is an antisemite, He has proven to have been dishonest certainly in the issue of gaming as referenced by the likes of Quin and Asmagold. However, it seems to me a stretch that he may be integrally anti Jewish while making all his pro Jewish references.
	:Or here. BBC has a far better reputation.
	:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63996061
	:And to adress ], the content of this article should be covered too
	:https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-63963779 ] (]) 13:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

			Looking at the event, Musk's topic at the time was civilisation. Among other of the topics that Musk supports are what seems to be a defence against an Orwellian type take over against free speech and an opposition to a communist / socialist related economic regression of a type perceived in locations such as Venezuela. However it is also possible to interpret that Musk is also opposed to what he might see as negative changes that might occur away from traditional forms of American culture.
	{{reflist talk}}

			While I still think it would be more encyclopaedic to present the event, if it needs to be presented, in video form, I also tbink it would be appropriate to present it in reference to a broader topic of culture or, as Musk referenced, civilisation. ]] 04:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Excessive subsections ==

			:See ]. It doesn't matter whether or not Musk is an antisemite in his heart. What matters is how ] and ] figures have described his words and actions. If you can find sources presenting this "in reference to a broader topic of culture or... civilisation" then please add them.
	{{ping\|Country20}} please discuss and gain consensus. Why are you adding dozens of subsections? ~ ]] 14:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
			:Regarding a potential video of the speech, Misplaced Pages has ]. The gist of it is that every piece of non-free content used must be completely necessary to provide an adequate overview of the subject being discussed, as well as serve a purpose that could not be served by text alone. This means that copyrighted videos should be uploaded without audio unless the audio is absolutely necessary to make a point. It would be difficult to argue that the audio of Musk's speech is necessary when his relevant comments can simply be transcribed. However, if you think you have a case, you can upload the video through ]. <span style="font-family:'Courier New'">''' – ]'''<sub>(]•])</sub></span> 05:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I deleted them...I thought it was more organized. Why did you delete my sourced content? ] (]) 14:58, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Because it's poorly written, the sources are subpar, and there are potential BLP vios. The subsections don't make it more organized - if anything it's more cluttered. ~ ]] 16:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

			== 1RR & ECP ==
	== Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2022 ==

			In case anyone hasn't noticed, this article is now under ] and ]. ] (]) 01:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{edit semi-protected\|Elon Musk\|answered=yes}}
	I suggest the following paragraph be added under media appearances.

			:Thanks for the heads-up. ] (]) 04:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	"Musk made a brief appearance at a ] show in ],]."

			== "Political figure"? ==
	Source:
	https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/dave-chappelle-booing-elon-musk-fans-react-twitter-1234646236/
	https://web.archive.org/web/20221214235358/https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/dave-chappelle-booing-elon-musk-fans-react-twitter-1234646236/ '''''(archived)''''' ] (]) 15:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	:I'm not really sure that it's of lasting significance. ~ ]] 15:14, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

			Why is he described as a "political figure" as opposed to a "politician"? {{tq\|A politician is a person who participates in policy-making processes, usually holding a position in government.}} ''']]''' 01:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Musk and his relationship with journalists covering him and his enterprises ==

			:Should he be called a "powerful unelected federal bureaucrat?" ] (]) 02:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	I would like to propose a new subsection under Personal views and Twitter usage that expounds on Musk's history with journalists, especially ones who have either praised him or criticized him. Source material could include the following:
			::You'll have a task and a half ahead of you if that's your suggestion for all bureaucrat articles. ''']]''' 02:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	* https://slate.com/business/2018/07/elon-musks-attacks-on-reporter-linette-lopez-need-to-stop.html
	* https://slate.com/technology/2020/05/kara-swisher-elon-musk-interview.html
	* https://www.inverse.com/article/45319-elon-musk-erin-biba-daily-beast-twitter
	* https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-technology-business-dac21de7abb6167bb604f5317aeda10a

			: To give you a serious answer, he does not hold "hold a position in government". The "DOGE" is not a real government department and so the administrator thereof is not a "politician". He is effectively an unelected, unappointed politically opinionated person with a high degree of influence over American politics, so "political figure" is the more accurate descriptor. ]]] ] 03:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	All (well-mannered and judicious) thoughts appreciated. ] (]) 19:21, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
			::{{tq\|''Usually'' holding a position in government}} does not mean ''always''. I'd argue "political figure" means the same thing, it's just weaseling around calling him a "politician". A {{tq\|high degree of influence over American politics}} sees him qualify, in my eyes, without considering his political activities and campaigns elsewhere. His notability as a politician is beyond question. ''']]''' 03:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	:As this seems to be also discussed under Jet, it will get a bit confusing to also discuss it here as well. ] (]) 19:25, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	::But it extends way before and beyond ]. ] (]) 19:26, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	*I don't think it's due to have a section solely for this, but I would be fine with interspersing (some of) the content throughout other sections. The Twitter stuff should go with Twitter, and we should also move the ElonJet fiasco there (something I wanted to do but decided not due to the edit war.). ~ ]] 19:45, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

			== Ableism/Discrimination in Article ==
	:: Why not just add a general new section as part of the timeline, called "2022 and his descent into madness"? ] (]) 22:45, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	:::<small>I was going to say that this is not the article on ], but then...<span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">]</span> <sup>] </sup> 22:50, 16 December 2022 (UTC)</small>
	:::You said it, not me! ] (]) 23:28, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
	::Could link to the ] article, which covers recent suspension of journalists from Twitter. Cheers! ] (]) 23:30, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

			Did you all forget that Elon musk has autism? He has expressed this publicly. Sometimes atoms happen or actions/words come out in ways they (autistic people) don’t mean. Please do not mention this “nazi salute” in the article. Pointing this out is really just an insult to the autistic community, is ableist, and discriminatory. I guarantee that most people perceiving this as a “Nazi salute” aren’t even Jewish/are atheists looking to defame someone simply because they disagree with him and are upset that their candidate fairly, securely lost the election and wasn’t the one being inaugurated yesterday. “””Not to mention, using Nazism/Adolf Hitler as some silly political insult because YOU’RE mad that your political party/candidate lost and didn’t take control of the presidency and congress is disgusting and downplays the real horrific situation that occurred, a permanent stain and disgrace on world history, as well as the millions of lives lost.””” Shame on those in control of editing this article. Did you all forget that Elon musk has autism? He has expressed this publicly. Sometimes atoms happen or actions/words come out in ways they (autistic people) don’t mean. Please do not mention this “nazi salute” in the article. Pointing this out is really just an insult to the autistic community, is ableist, and discriminatory. I guarantee that most people perceiving this as a “Nazi salute” aren’t even Jewish/are atheists looking to defame someone simply because they disagree with him and are upset that their candidate fairly, securely lost the election and wasn’t the one being inaugurated yesterday. “””Not to mention, using Nazism/Adolf Hitler as some silly political insult because YOU’RE mad that your political party/candidate lost and didn’t take control of the presidency and congress is disgusting and downplays the real horrific situation that occurred, a permanent stain and disgrace on world history, as well as the millions of lives lost.””” Shame on those in control of editing this article. ] (]) 03:26, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	== LADD and his son info ==

			:Fellow autist. I find it more ableist to act like autists are above criticism. ] (]) 03:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	I added the following on it, seeking consensus. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Elon_Musk&diff=1127860528&oldid=1127859361&diffmode=source ] (]) 01:59, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
			:@] We go on what reliable sources say, not the opinion of one person. If you find one that states that the gesture was a result of his autism, thats a different story. ] (]) 04:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
	*Not found. You presented hearsay as fact. ] (]) 02:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	**I concur. ~ ]] 02:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	***Here is a source about his LADD blacklisted plane. https://www.protocol.com/elon-musk-flight-tracker Why are you hiding this info? Also stop pinging my home page. I though I opted out of your spam. ] (]) 02:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	****Not even Elon's tweet claimed his son was "attacked". – ] (]) 02:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	****Please read ]. ~ ]] 02:48, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	*So, the original edit didn't make the claim ("his son was attacked"), nor does the link here. I have blocked ] for a blatant violation of the BLP: misrepresentation of what is in the sources. ] (]) 02:56, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	**The source they cited did use the word "attacked". But it looks like a bad source blowing things out of proportion. – ] (]) 03:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	***], the car, not the child... So if the bad source already blew something out of proportion, this user blew it up even more. ] (]) 17:35, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	***Dear admins, please for the love of God give this article extended confirmed protection. Just look at the chaos in the revision history. It's going to give me an aneurysm. ~ ]] 03:12, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
	***:Second. ] (]) 18:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q1: Can I write a message to Elon Musk here? (No.) A1: No. The "Talk:Elon Musk" page is not for writing messages to Musk. It is only for discussing changes to the Misplaced Pages article about him. Writing a message to Musk here is pointless and disruptive, and such messages will be removed as an improper use of the page. Q2: Can you update the article to call Musk a "business magnet"? (No.) A2: No. Musk once suggested in an interview that his Misplaced Pages article be changed to describe him as a "business magnet" rather than a magnate. The tone of that interview was not very serious; he also claimed to be an alien. Misplaced Pages doesn't have to do what Musk says, and this request has been made and declined dozens of times already. New requests may be removed without a response so that other discussions are not disrupted. Q3: Should Musk be identified as South African in the opening sentence? A3: Musk is a US citizen (since 2002) born and raised in South Africa, and also acquired Canadian citizenship via his mother. Including these nationalities in the opening sentence in a balanced way would be complex, and the consensus is that they should instead be explained later in the lead. Q4: Can you change "Tesla CEO" to "Tesla Technoking"? A4: No, because he is still CEO according to company records and that is a common corporate title that readers will understand, unlike "Technoking". The goal of the article is to inform people, which would be hindered by raising a confusing technicality. Q5: Should the mention of Errol Musk having an interest in an emerald mine be removed in view of Elon's denials? A5: While Elon today vehemently disputes any history with an emerald mine, he formerly accepted and even confirmed it. Specifically, a 2014 report originally printed in the San Jose Mercury News (and cited in the article) stated that Errol Musk had "a stake in" a mine. Elon affirmed his father's mine involvement in an interview with Jim Clash, a career interviewer of public figures, that was published by Forbes and withdrawn without explanation a few months later. Elon biographer Ashlee Vance likewise confirmed Errol's mining interest, with Elon's objections but not denials, in a 2020 interview report with Elon. Errol has stated that he received hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of emeralds from his dealings. Q6: Should "Bachelor of Arts in Physics" be "Bachelor of Science" instead? A6: No. Although it may seem counterintuitive, "Bachelor of Arts" is awarded for all undergraduate degrees at the College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Pennsylvania. His economics degree however is from the Wharton School which does award a "Bachelor of Science" degree. Q7: Should the article acknowledge doubts about Musk's academic record? A7: Misplaced Pages policy on biographies of living persons requires that negative information about a person must be attributed to reliable published sources, and excludes both self-published sources (e.g. Twitter threads) and court trial records. The article states that sources disagree about when Musk obtained bachelor degrees, and that he did not attend Stanford for any significant amount of time. Any doubts beyond this require appropriate sources. Q8: Why doesn't this article describe Musk as an engineer? A8: Musk is chief engineer of SpaceX, a title that applies within the company and that the press regularly mentions. He is not a professional engineer, a distinction within engineering that carries certain legal privileges in the United States, nor has he completed an engineering training program, nor has he ever been hired as an engineer. The article therefore does not include any of these claims. It does note that, from time to time, Musk has made initial product proposals at his companies that his trained engineers then research and develop. He does hold IEEE Honorary Membership. Q9: Why doesn't the article identify Musk as co-founder of PayPal? A9: Because that could mislead readers that Musk was involved in the creation of the PayPal service and brand, when he was not. Instead, as the article states, he co-founded a company (X.com Corporation) that acquired the company that had developed PayPal (Confinity Inc.) and then renamed itself as PayPal, Inc. Q10: Why does this page include criticism of Musk's actions and stances? A10: Musk is criticized/praised a lot in many reliable sources, and as such we need to talk about these criticisms and praise. To quote from Misplaced Pages's policy on a neutral point of view, articles must represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Q11: Why is this a "good article" when some people consider Musk a bad person? A11: "Good article" on Misplaced Pages refers to the way the article is written, not what kind of person Musk is. Good articles have been found to satisfy Misplaced Pages editorial standards for accuracy, verifiability and balanced presentation. Q12: Why doesn't this page call Musk African American? A12: African Americans are an ethnic group of Americans with total or partial ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa. Reliable sources do not use this term to describe Musk. References

"Joe Rogan Experience #1169 - Elon Musk". The Joe Rogan Experience. September 6, 2018. Event occurs at 9:53. Retrieved October 2, 2020 – via YouTube.

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A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 15, 2021.The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Elon Musk* lost $16.3 billion in a single day, the largest in the history of the* Bloomberg Billionaires Index?
Current status: Former featured article candidate, current good article

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Reference ideas for Elon MuskThe following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Breland, Ali (2024-08-20). "The Far Right Is Becoming Obsessed With Race and IQ". The Atlantic.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

Elon Musk in popular culture was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 14 May 2022 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Elon Musk. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Isobel Asher Hamilton (December 23, 2019). "Elon Musk fact-checked his own Misplaced Pages page and requested edits including the fact he does 'zero investing'". Business Insider. Retrieved December 23, 2019.
Don Reisinger (December 23, 2019). "Elon Musk Took Issue With His Misplaced Pages Page, So He Asked the Community to Fix It. They Did". Inc. Retrieved December 23, 2019.
Sissi Cao (December 23, 2019). "Elon Musk Says His Misplaced Pages Page Is 'Insanely' Inaccurate". Observer. Retrieved December 27, 2019.
"Misplaced Pages locks Elon Musk's page after he 'begs' Twitter users to 'trash him' on site". The Tribune (Chandigarh). August 17, 2020. Retrieved August 17, 2020.
Sanya Jain (August 17, 2020). "Elon Musk Is Begging - Yes, Begging - To Be Trashed On Misplaced Pages. True Story". NDTV. Retrieved August 17, 2020.
Stephen Harrison (May 3, 2022). "The Controversy Brewing on Elon Musk's Misplaced Pages Page". Slate. Retrieved May 3, 2022.
Dave Lee (October 26, 2023). "Now Elon Musk is attacking Misplaced Pages". Australian Financial Review. Retrieved October 31, 2023.
CT Jones (October 24, 2023). "Elon Musk Offers to Also Ruin Misplaced Pages". Rolling Stone. Retrieved November 5, 2023.
Will Bunch (December 29, 2024). "Explaining the right: Why Musk and MAGA are so mad at Misplaced Pages". Daily Kos. Retrieved December 29, 2024.
Oliver Willis (December 29, 2024). "Forget Greenland. Trump and Musk's real WWIII is an all-out war on the truth". The Philadelphia Inquirer. Retrieved December 31, 2024.
Marcie Jones (January 8, 2025). "Misplaced Pages Won't Let Elon Musk Fluff His Resume. Heritage Foundation Will Help By Terrorizing The Editors". Wonkette. Retrieved January 8, 2025.
Anthony Blair (January 21, 2025). "Elon Musk lashes out at Misplaced Pages over 'Nazi salute' claims at Trump's inauguration as he calls for site to be defunded". The Sun. Retrieved January 21, 2025.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Elon Musk's submarine was copied or moved into Elon Musk with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Section sizes

Section size for Elon Musk (53 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	8,230	8,230
Early life and education	29	25,660
Childhood and family	14,265	14,265
Education	11,366	11,366
Business career	20	124,311
Zip2	4,453	4,453
X.com and PayPal	5,499	5,499
SpaceX	12,014	23,639
Starlink	11,625	11,625
Tesla	18,821	36,701
SEC and shareholder lawsuits regarding tweets	10,564	10,564
SolarCity and Tesla Energy	7,316	7,316
Neuralink	9,090	9,090
The Boring Company	5,155	5,155
Twitter / X	30,228	30,228
Leadership style	9,526	9,526
Other activities	21	47,633
Musk Foundation	8,510	8,510
Hyperloop	8,608	8,608
OpenAI and xAI	5,852	5,852
Tham Luang cave rescue and defamation case	9,993	9,993
2018 cannabis incident	2,143	2,143
Music	2,983	2,983
Private jet	6,548	6,548
Company towns	2,975	2,975
Wealth	2,088	2,088
Personal actions, views, and social media usage	8,363	166,085
Finance	7,788	7,788
Technology	5,803	6,564
Criticism of Wikimedia	761	761
Existential threats	18,782	18,782
Politics	32,766	91,921
United States governmental roles	4,159	4,159
Conservative PAC activities	9,877	9,877
International politics	5,076	5,076
United Kingdom	13,095	13,095
Germany	9,674	9,674
Israel	2,724	2,724
China	4,357	4,357
Russia	10,193	10,193
Accusations of antisemitism	18,084	18,084
COVID-19	14,583	14,583
Personal life	6,901	56,639
Relationships and children	23,237	23,237
Legal matters after 2020	22,126	22,126
Gaming	4,375	4,375
Public perception	20,181	20,181
Notes and references	25	80
Notes	26	26
Citations	29	29
Works cited	1,501	1,501
Further reading	1,608	1,608
External links	5,894	5,894
Total	459,910	459,910

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RfC: Mentioning Oligarch Characterization in Lead

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Musk is the wealthiest person in the world. He has been described as an oligarch by prominent commentators, academics, and experts.

Should a variant of the following sentence be included in the lead?

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

Does this addition have any support? Are there any other suggestions? (Some editors have argued that Musk should directly be referred to as an oligarch in the lead. I now agree with those that oppose doing so per WP:UNDUE.) Firecat93 (talk) 08:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Support I support this course of action.

Here are just a few notable examples of prominent commentators, academics, and experts who have characterized Musk as an oligarch:

Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman, has described Musk as a "petulant oligarch"
Former United States Secretary of Labor Robert Reich has referred to Musk as an oligarch
Senior fellow at Brookings and former Senior Director at the United States National Security Council during the Trump administration, Fiona Hill, has characterized Musk as an emerging oligarch
Ali Breland, staff writer at The Atlantic, has described Musk as "a new kind of oligarch"
United States House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.) has called Musk as an "unelected oligarch."
United States Senator Bernie Sanders (I-V.T.) has described Musk as an oligarch
There are many other examples in reliable sources of the term oligarch being associated with Musk, including by academics like Northwestern political scientist Jeffrey Winters, who specializes in the study of oligarchy.

This characterization has received significant media coverage, especially in the past year.

Influential Russian billionaires such as Roman Abramovich are referred to as oligarchs in their article leads, as there is consensus in RS that they are oligarchs. This is clearly not true in the case of American billionaires like Musk. However, I believe that this characterization should still be briefly described in the lead in as neutral a way as possible.

For reference, Oxford Languagues' Google dictionary defines an oligarch as, "a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence."

From the Business Oligarch Misplaced Pages Page: A business leader can be considered an oligarch if some of the following conditions are satisfied:

uses monopolistic tactics to dominate an industry;
possesses sufficient political power to promote their own interests, often exacerbating income inequality and corruption, particularly through policies that benefit the elite at the expense of the majority.
controls multiple businesses, which intensively coordinate their activities.

Firecat93 (talk) 08:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, per WP:NOTGOSSIP regarding leads of BLPs, "News reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary."

Additionally, per lead policy, "The lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents."

1. Does Musk's article go into more detail about him being an oligarch? The article must, if it is going to be considered summarizing the article's contents.

2. And do we believe calling him an oligarch is one of the most important contents? I don't believe so. Pistongrinder (talk) 19:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per the items in Firecat93's Business Oligarch list, I see only the last example as true. This seems like the purpose of the post is a derogatory one, as the term Oligarch usually applies to Russians. It's one thing in a legacy or speculation section, but the lead??? Not a good fit. I'm sure there are even more people that would describe him as something like a benevolent genius, where I'm sure he is closer to something in the middle ground. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) Regardless of whether or the label applies, Musk has been described as an oligarch by academics and experts such as Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, and Fiona Hill. I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples of this characterization in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s description of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" Firecat93 (talk) 17:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Look, we all know how politics is these days. If you are on the opposing side you're nothing short of Godzilla out to destroy the world. That isn't encyclopedic, and it's undue weight. As I had said, and what we do with many sports figures, in a legacy section or political enemy section, it could fit.... but it is certainly not something we would put in the lead. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
@Firecat93 Support

reasons:

the duck test: The "duck test" is a form of reasoning that identifies something based on its observable characteristics: "If it looks, swims, and quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck".Applied to Elon Musk as an oligarch, critics like Bernie Sanders argue that Musk's immense wealth and political influence resemble characteristics of oligarchy- concentrated power in the hands of the wealthy.Musk's actions, such as pressuring lawmakers and influencing government decisions, align with this critique, fitting the "duck test" for oligarchic behavior.

International perception: sources should still be collected by expanding the relevant section of the article but internationally musk has been perceived as Oligarch.

Elon Musk has been characterized as an oligarch internationally, particularly in Germany and Britain:

Germany: Politicians like Dennis Radtke (CDU) and Anton Hofreiter (Greens) condemned Musk's endorsement of the far- right AfD, calling it a threat to democracy, "Haken dran" and "Lanz und Precht" discussed him as an Oligarch.

Britain: Media outlets like Spiked and Byline Times referred to Musk as a "foreign oligarch" due to his rumored $100 million donation to Nigel Farage's Reform UK party, raising concerns about foreign influence in politics Aberlin2 (talk) 10:32, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

By virtue of a "duck test," Musk would also be an engineer. The ASCE and other sources have described him as such. So if a "duck test" and having some quantity of experts stating as such does not justify being described as an "engineer" on this page, then neither is it sufficient for "oligarch." Foonix0 (talk) 11:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Foonix0 Hi, thank you for your reply.

so, when is it possible for you to describe him or to call him an Oligarch or will you always move the goalposts? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

also I'm noticing, actually the discussion is not wether he is or is not an Oligarch but If it should be mentioned that people seem to perceive him as such. what do you think about this? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Aberlin2 Yes, thank you. I apologize if I didn't make this clear: I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" Firecat93 (talk) 17:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Could it be acceptable to briefly mention he has been characterized as an engineer in the lead as per your proposal?

The relevance here is that established standards should be applied in a consistent manner. It's fine to change the standard, but it should be applied consistently. If we don't, then people will pick and choose which standard they want based on their preferred preference, which presents a bias issue. Editors will favor relaxed standards for information they like, and favor more stringent ones for information they don't like. Foonix0 (talk) 01:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

See the FAQ. QRep2020 (talk) 16:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose As we do not fact know how much influence he really has, yet. Also if we have him as an Oligarch would that not mean we have to say this about every rich person who meddles in politics? What makes Musk special? Slatersteven (talk) 10:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
If every other rich person who meddles in politics has been described as an oligarch in a number of reliable sources, then we can describe them as oligarchs too. That's the only criteria for describing them as such; and this is an RfC on Musk alone, not every article about a rich person who meddles in politics. He's reliably described as an oligarch, he's one of the world's richest men; I would be comfortable describing him as such in-article.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 12:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" Firecat93 (talk) 17:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
@Slatersteven I wanted to make this distinction clearer, as it appears that my RfC suggestion was misinterpreted by some editors. Firecat93 (talk) 17:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Yep, I agree EarthDude (talk) 11:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven

if this discussion is only about mentioning his characterisations as Oligarch and not if he in fact is an Oligarch, then the difference is the reception. there are a lot of of rich people who are not characterized as Oligarch by scientists and influential public persons in multiple states across the globe

hth Aberlin2 (talk) 18:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Support as per my comment above.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 12:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Support, WP:Spade applies, doubt any reliable source contests it. Some academic sources:

Zelinsky 2024: By supporting the Reddit crowd, Musk performed a remarkable persona in-between his elite status as one of the tech oligarchs, at that time the world’s richest person, and his support of the populist cause against the routinized and supposedly immoral establishment.
Allcorn 2023
Waller 2024: Yet the oversize personality of figures such as Musk and the clear trend towards the oligarchization of near-Earth space settlement…
Lipsitz 2024: On the question of Khan, it seems likelier that he’ll take his cues from an oligarch like Musk than from his own vice president.
Kampmark 2024

Kowal2701 (talk) 13:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Zelinsky 2024 is dated within the GameStop short squeeze. Allcorn 2023 has an indirect association between Musk and oligarchy through X, and I would be hesitant to use it if there are better references. Waller 2024 might be acceptable—though oligarchization is in quotes—but I question if space colonization is the sector that most who claim Musk is an oligarch would identify their claims with. Lipsitz 2024 is an opinion article. Kampmark 2024 mentions Musk being a "tech oligarch" in passing and does not elaborate on that much, analysis that is absent from most of these articles and would greatly strengthen them. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 22:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

@ElijahPepe

does that mean oppose or support? Aberlin2 (talk) 22:53, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't mean either, and that is not relevant to my comment. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 22:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Strongly oppose While I personally find it very interesting that the "oligarch" rhetoric ramped up as soon as Musk aligned himself with Trump's campaign, outside of that tidbit Musk's influence on the US government is being greatly exaggerated and this push to label him as an oligarch feels blatantly partisan.

Per Firecat93's comments above, which "monopolistic tactics" are being used to "dominate" an industry? Which industry? How much political power does Musk actually, legally possess? Even if he does possess political power in some way, how is he using it to promote his own interests and thereby exacerbating income inequality and corruption? Which of his businesses are "intensively" coordinating their activities?

Labeling a living person as an "oligarch" is a serious step and should only be taken if there is abundant proof, not just a relatively small collection of highly opinionated political commentators who have spent most of the last decade assigning derogatory titles to people who disagree with them politically. Big Thumpus (talk) 14:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The FT is probably the best source we could have, hence why it’s £40 a month. See From Putin to Musk: the making of a modern-day oligarch (2023), I can’t access it but that’ll answer most of your questions Kowal2701 (talk) 15:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Does the monthly cost of a source indicate its quality? I can't access it either, so unless someone who has a subscription can provide some quotes from the article for us to analyze it's not very useful. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:30, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

It’s useful in that a highly reputable source supports the nom, I used to have access to it, but agreed quotes would be very welcome Kowal2701 (talk) 16:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

A plain text version of the article's body is available at https://pastebin.com/wKTThszJ.

"First, oligarchs are not simply tycoons. The latter are rich business people who may not have any political power. Lingelbach told me that Elon Musk went from tycoon to oligarch when he bought Twitter last year. The social media company, now renamed X, shapes opinion on events from Ukraine to Israel — often by platforming falsehoods. Today, adds Lingelbach, "Musk is one of the five or 10 most consequential oligarchs in our world."

QRep2020 (talk) 18:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay so in that article, the person referring to Elon Musk as an "oligarch", David Lingelbach, just so happens to be the author of the new book the article is entirely about? The article that even states that the definition of oligarch has been "reworked" by the two authors of said book, in order to accommodate the actions of people like Musk? Big Thumpus (talk) 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Big Thumpus & Kowal2701 - here is an archived copy of the article that is accessible. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:03, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this Big Thumpus (talk) 20:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Kowal2701 I am not advocating that we "label" Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one by some academics and politicians in the lead. Firecat93 (talk) 18:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus To clarify, I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" Firecat93 (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the clarification but I still oppose as the opinion of a few politically biased commentators - or at the very least, commentators who may hold negative personal opinions of Musk - is not appropriate for an encyclopedia and certainly not for the lead of an article about a living person. If, say, history rolls on and it turns out in several years that Musk does in fact end up using any political power he might gain to enrich himself, increase corruption, etc. then it would be fine to expand the article. Doing so out of pure speculation before the fact gives the appearance of mud-slinging at the very least. Big Thumpus (talk) 19:56, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus

" a few politically biased commentators" are politicians and scientists from multiple nations around the world. it should of course be expanded in the article ...but still it should be mentioned in the introduction otherwise the article's introduction could seem Like Cherry picked favorable facts about his life.

Aberlin2 (talk) 16:41, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

They aren't favorable facts, they're just facts. That he is an oligarch is not a fact; it is the opinion of people who just so happen to also oppose him politically. Not at all appropriate for the introduction, at the very least. Big Thumpus (talk) 16:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

That he is an oligarch is a fact, even if those who support him politically dislike the label. What else can you call a man who spent $200 million supporting Trump's campaign on top of buying out the world's largest social media platform to censor his critics and platform his political allies? For god's sake, he's even trying to bend this very site to his whims! plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 22:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I could not agree more with this positioning. Pistongrinder (talk) 00:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:TOOSOON and rushing this to a RFC after four comments shows a fundamental misunderstanding of WP:RFCBEFORE. Some time needs to pass before we can have a real conversation about this topic. Musk and Trump's current association is being sensationalized and what that means is mostly a lot of speculation for which it appears some of the arguments above have decided to indulge. We do not have a WP:CRYSTALBALL. This is a biography, not a news article. Nemov (talk) 14:48, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
@Nemov Just as a clarification, I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" Firecat93 (talk) 17:54, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Your clarification doesn't change my argument. People engaging in name calling and speculaction falls considerably short of justification for inclusion here. Nemov (talk) 22:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose oligarch, as the lead of our article on Oligarchy states that it's rule by the few, which I don't think really applies here. I would Support plutocrat. Support after clarification from nom Feeglgeef (talk) 16:13, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not it applies, he has been described as an oligarch by academics and experts such as Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, and Fiona Hill. I am not advocating that we describe Musk as an oligarch. My suggestion is that we briefly mention that he has been characterized as one in the lead.

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

I've listed some examples in my comment above such as House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.)'s characterization of Musk as an "unelected oligarch" Firecat93 (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Feeglgeef Firecat93 (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I've changed my comment. Feeglgeef (talk) 17:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose adding it to the lead. The term "oligarch" isn't featured significantly enough in the article body (see WP:SUMMARY) or in reliable sources (see WP:DUE) to include in the lead in my opinion. Doing a keyword search on the article's current references, I found 336 sources containing the word "billionaire" and 9 containing the word "oligarch". – Anne drew 19:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Yep. We should add that he's been called an oligarch, and there's quite a few reliable sources to back that up, but it shouldn't be added in the lead. Maybe adding it in the public perception section would be better? EarthDude (talk) 16:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
While I still oppose the idea of adding "oligarch" generally, I believe this is the first inclusion idea that could be argued as an appropriate use of WP:DUE and WP:NEUTRALITY. Pistongrinder (talk) 16:27, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That would work for me although we seem to have a general consensus not to include now. Thanks EarthDude Lukewarmbeer (talk) 17:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose inclusion in the lead. This seems like basically just unnecessary name-calling. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose adding this in the lead, per Anne drew and BarrelProof. It might just about be WP:DUE as a single sentence in the politics section of the body, though note that wording such as "some academics and politicians" is discouraged by WP:WEASEL. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose A sentence is WP:DUE in the lede if it summarizes the body, and a sentence is allowed an exception to WP:WEASEL if it is used in lede and if it summarizes the body. It does not summarize the body, failing both principles. Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:32, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Despite what the bias news media calls him, be it oligarch or president Musk, he is neither by any definition of the words. Dream Focus 10:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree, primarily because his influence has broad populist appeal. At this point, he is effectively a businessman and politician. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:13, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

@Dream Focus

the discussion is currently not about if he is Oligarch or not but if it should be mentioned in the introduction that someone people publicly state that they see him this way.

i also got this wrong the first time are you aware of the distinction?

hth Aberlin2 (talk) 16:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
And some in the media call others dictators, or compare those they don't like to Hitler. We don't put that in their articles. We don't list everything anyone ever said about someone in their articles. Dream Focus 18:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Support I found Aberlin2's line of reasoning especially persuasive. QRep2020 (talk) 16:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose The term oligarch isn't used much in America, it is a Russian thing and therefore it isn't clear what it means. But he can't be an oligarch in that sense because Trump isn't in power yet. Most of the sources are political opponents of Elon and not reliable. Kruger is an economist not a political scientist. Here he is acting as a pundit. I am troubled about the appeal to authority based on his so-called "Nobel Prize", because it is not relevant. Using the definition of one scholar to decide if Trump is an oligarch is SYNTH. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:14, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I also oppose "using the definition of one scholar to decide if" Musk or anyone else is an oligarch. The RfC asked whether or not a brief sentence explaining that prominent academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an oligarch should be included in the lead. Firecat93 (talk) 04:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - too soon. Also does not meet traditional definition of oligarch, seems like tech oligarch is a new label.

Not sure it'll last. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:26, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Support - We have all been following the recent events and know that the way he has used his fortune during the elections is why he was appointed to join the Department of Government Efficiency, people are just in denial about it at this point.

In the future, should US politics remain as they are, expect more billionaires to join this and similar parallel government agencies where their voices are louder than those of the public. Yoitai (talk) 12:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Support. Mentioning this in the lead section of the article seems appropriate, as it is backed by multiple credible sources that explicitly describe the individual as an American oligarch. The term oligarch is not exclusive to the post-Soviet context but has been applied in broader political and academic discourse to denote individuals wielding outsized influence on government, media, and public affairs and opinion due to their financial leverage. This individual's substantial influence over key industries, public discourse with privately owned social media platforms, recently policymaking, and involvement in multiple countries' elections headings aligns with this characterization. Adding this description provides important encyclopedic context for his societal role without violating WP:UNDUE, as it reflects notable, sourced opinions rather than fringe perspectives. While Misplaced Pages maintains a neutral point of view, accurately labeling such influence with correct term seems necessary. Onikaburgers (talk) 19:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose While we do describe some people as oligarchs (See eg.: Roman Abramovich, Oleg Deripaska, Vladimir Potanin, etc.), there is not enough here to reliably define Elon as an oligarch. However, the bar set by some here is much higher than it should be - if there is some reliable, peer-reviewed research defining Elon as an oligarch, and enough reliable reporting, then I believe the bar is met (and it isn't as far off as some here indicate). This isn't a matter of gossip, being news media, name calling, or about helping a reader understand the article, this is about the reliability of the claim that Elon is an oligarch and whether it is a defining characteristic of the person. Here, it is not - for now. ReidLark1n 23:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

The RfC asked whether or not a variation of the following sentence should be included: Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch.

The discussion is not about categorizing Musk as an oligarch. Firecat (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

The same logic applies whether he is being categorized as an oligarch or inserting your sentence in the led as far as I am concerned. I.e., if there was a hypothetical list of American oligarchs, then Elon would need to belong in that category to call him an oligarch in the led.

Otherwise, the current stasis of the article is sufficient in the public perception section. ReidLark1n 02:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Support as per reasons stated by other editors. Theofunny (talk) 08:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This s kind of like asking whether or not we should add that several media outlets have deemed him “shadow vice president” (I.e The Guardian). 2600:100C:A21D:971A:6018:4BB8:C9C0:2BE4 (talk) 19:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Support - If he weren't an American businessman he'd already be called an oligarch and it wouldn't be remotely controversial. The definition fits and the people labeling him as such are prominent enough. Many of the opposing comments implicitly rely on American exceptionalism. If this RFC fails I think it will be worth revisiting as Musk's role in the Trump admin becomes more clear Monk of Monk Hall (talk) 23:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:TOOSOON Sushidude21! (talk) 01:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Strong support: According to Oxford, the definition of an oligarch is "a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence". Musk ticks of everything here. He's the richest man on earth, with almost half a trillion dollars, and most importantly, he indeed has a great deal of political influence. First of all, he controls one of the world's most popular social media platforms, Twitter, which he has repeatedly used as a tool to promote Trump in the 2024 election, according to countless reliable sources(NBC: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/elon-musk-turned-x-trump-echo-chamber-rcna174321, CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/13/tech/elon-musk-donald-trump-x/index.html, NPR: https://www.npr.org/2024/10/22/nx-s1-5156184/elon-musk-trump-election-x-twitter). According to Al Jazeera (https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/11/7/the-elon-musk-effect-how-donald-trump-gained-from-billionaires-support), Musk played a big role in Trump's reelection, taking not just Twitter, but also his sizeable donations, being one of the largest individual donor to the Trump campaign. His recent attempt to not let the government shutdown bill to pass, showed his direct attempt to leverage his wealth and influence in politics, which will only increase once the Trump Administration kicks in from Jan 20, and Musk heads DOGE. This Vox article (https://www.vox.com/money/387348/elon-musk-trump-president-billionaire-oligarchy) directly analyzes and calls out Musk's oligarch status.

EarthDude (talk) 11:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

So how is his status going now MAGA are telling him to eff off? Slatersteven (talk) 18:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose — Taking a look at the six references—a number that automatically raises questions:
- The first reference is to Business Insider, which is not a reliable source nor an unreliable source per WP:BUSINESSINSIDER. The Insider source links to an opinion article written by Paul Krugman, which might suffice here if Krugman were a qualified individual to make the claim that "petulant oligarchs rule our world"; having read Krugman's article prior to this discussion, one criticism I had of it was that it did not sufficiently associate wealth to power. I re-read it and came to the same conclusion, though I am sure that if it were written recently that Krugman could point to the debt ceiling fiasco. Still, this is not a particularly effective reference.
- The second reference is to Barron's, which has no reliability at WP:RSP, though it was syndicated from AFP, which would make it generally reliable to use. The AFP article cites a tweet from Robert Reich. Again, the issues with the Krugman reference persist. Reich is not qualified to make the claim that Musk is an oligarch. By the time the article was written—when Twitter had named Musk to its board—Musk had a minimal political influence that primarily benefited his companies, such as his dinner with former president Barack Obama in February 2015.
- The third reference is to The Hill, which is generally reliable per WP:THEHILL, and from October. The article cites Fiona Hill, but doesn't specifically quote her on claiming that Musk is an oligarch, but rather makes that conclusion from her statements. I continue to be skeptical of who is making these claims, though I suppose this could suffice if necessary.
- The fourth reference is to The Atlantic, a generally reliable source, and from last week. Ali Breland makes the claim that Musk is an "information oligarch", a term he borrows from Shoshana Zuboff in the Financial Times. However, because the term is effectively a neologism, it can't be given the same weight as "oligarch" because it implicitly requires a suffix that is not widely applied as a subset of oligarchs. If it was, then Musk would be known as an information oligarch, not a general oligarch.
- The fifth reference is a duplicate of the second.
- The sixth reference is to Slate, which is no longer present at WP:RSP but is generally reliable regardless. The article is an interview with Jeffrey Winters, who is a political scientist and would be qualified to claim that Musk is an oligarch.
- The seventh reference is to Newsweek, which should not be used in Trump-related articles per WP:TRUMPRS and WP:NEWSWEEK; the criticisms I have for Newsweek are elaborated in the former and which I recommend reading. Fortunately, the article is relatively acceptable given that it cites Bernie Sanders; unfortunately, it cites a politician, who is clearly not qualified to make this claim.

In all, there are only one or two usable references here. Six is a remarkably low number for a viewpoint that is not in the majority. For instance, Infowars cites thirteen references to claim it is a far-right website, with many of those being scholarly articles. Very few newspapers, if any, have independently made the association between Musk and oligarchy largely because scholars in this field often look at macropolitics with an examination of macroentities, i.e. institutions such as the banking sector. As for the statement in question, in what ways does Musk wield "considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse"? At a base level, many of the references included are not even dated to this year, and the ones that are do not make that connection, save for the Slate interview. Musk does not have influence over government policy—as the spending fight showed, industry—given that the Department of Government Efficiency has not even been formed, or public discourse—a concept I would find it difficult to qualify to begin with. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 22:37, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Strongly oppose: If you consider for a moment the hundreds of thousands of articles and media attention given to Elon Musk, and then you consider the number of those sources that call him an oligarch, you simply cannot make a case for WP:DUE period, let alone in the lead. I'm actually very concerned we're considering this idea at all. As a reminder from the policy WP:NOTNEWS and its subsidiary WP:NOTGOSSIP, For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary. I understand the motivation, seeing as some sources do present the label, but this opinion is WP:FRINGE and absolutely does not belong in this WP:BLP, which, by nature of the WP Policy, should err on the side of caution when presenting subjects with labels like this. Pistongrinder (talk) 00:51, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
I understand your reasoning. Just to clarify, however, the RfC proposed including a brief sentence explaining that prominent individuals have characterized him as an oligarch. It did not propose to "present" Musk with this label. Firecat93 (talk) 04:21, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose — Elon has only recently obtained any form of political influence, and with someone who isn't even president yet! Under the current administration he was largely shunned (not even invited to the Whitehouse for an EV summit!!) So, WP:DUE and WP:TOOSOON. Not to mention the common understanding of the term "Oligarch" as someone having undue influence in countries where power is highly concentrated, would be a stretch in US politics.JamieBrown2011 (talk) 13:11, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
It wouldn't be a stretch in US politics honestly. Most industries and sectors have monopolies by a small number of corporations, and both of the two main political parties have a lot of the same corporate donors. Someone who almost got the government to shut down by using his wealth and influence to Veto a bill, when not even being in office or elected in any way, as Musk recently did, even before the Trump Administration has formed, is a clear sign of oligarchic use of power. Also, quite a few reliable sources state Musk to be a oligarch or similar to an oligarch, so it should definitely be added in the article EarthDude (talk) 16:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
With all due respect, I think your facts of that situation are a little tainted. He didn't use his "wealth" to veto that bill. Himself and Vivek made people aware of the contents of the bill (1600 pages of it) and that it was trying to be pushed through congress at the last minute (not even giving senators a chance to read it) and congress itself killed the bill and replaced it with 116 page bill. That is not oligarchs abusing power, that my friend is democracy. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose — Name-calling is weird. Do we need to mention that Pedro Pascal is called "the Internet daddy" in the lede of his article just because a crap ton of results from reliable sources pop up when we google it? No! Barnt Toust 02:35, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Oligarch is a word that describes, " a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence ." Describing Musk as an oligarch is not a form of name calling. Firecat93 (talk) 04:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Not per most reliable dictionary definitions. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:52, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

suppose we call every rich dude who speaks with Drumpf last an oligarch? Since the president is notorious for having being swayed by the last fellow whom he speaks with on any given subject. Barnt Toust 17:27, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@BarntToust no, please read the discussion or the article Aberlin2 (talk) 22:41, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

In discussions such as these, I cannot help but notice a pattern. there are two sides. One side shares their thoughts, then the other side shares their thoughts. One side of the discussion cannot bear to let the opinions of the other just exist as they are and everyone on the other side has every particular of their two sentences of two cents bludgeoned. I don't understand why this helps any decisions to be made. Each side must have the merits of their arguments assessed by a closer. If one side's argument is garbage, a closer doesn't need the help of literally everyone in their Majesty's most Loyal Opposition in making this be known. Barnt Toust 22:59, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose — I don't think it adds to the readers knowledge of the subject to use the word oligarch. The word could be stretched to fit around Musk but at the risk of subverting the current meaning. If we use this for Musk we must surely also use it for Gates and Bloomberg (which we don't) and so many more. It does seem that one of the criteria that is being used here is the association with Trump. That's not a reason to label Musk an oligarch.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 19:13, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
The characterization of oligarch must be done so for Bill Gates, George Soros, Michael Blooomberg, and Judith Faulkner. Calling only the billionaires who supported Trump oligarchs ignores the Corporatism present in the Democrat party. Leftists are well aware of this fact and call it out, but through a Blue vs. Red lens, people who only call out Musk are doing so with the intention of steering people into the arms of Corporate Democrats instead of letting people learn of the bigger picture. When the pro-Democrats side refuses to accept criticism and only points it at the right, people become reformists and either call out partisanship behaviour OR they choose to go the anti-bi-partisanship route. Elibroftw (talk) 18:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose, does not help readers, and is mentioned just once in the body, in the literal last paragraph. CMD (talk) 09:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose By my count, the lead is already at 565 words. The guideline on lead length suggests that a well-written lead is 250–400 words. That sets a high bar for adding information to the lead. If we had a 400-word paragraph in the article body on Musk's characterization as an oligarch, then adding this to the lead would be due weight. But adding a sentence to the lead about a perspective that otherwise only gets one sentence in the article is undue weight. In a lead that is already so long, if we can't write a substantial paragraph about a particular viewpoint, it probably doesn't belong in the lead. PrinceTortoise (he/him • poke) 19:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
While policy says 400, lots of leads in featured articles have 700+ Kowal2701 (talk) 19:47, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the complexity of the subject and development of the article. There is no set policy on 400 words limit of the lead section. Onikaburgers (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

RFC on family's wealth

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Should we remove "A member of the wealthy South African Musk family"

Yes or No Slatersteven (talk) 19:01, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose EarthDude (talk) 11:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Support removal - the cited article is ambiguously sourced and contradicts facts in the more credible Isaacson biography. Because of the inadequate support, the statement appears biased and makes the entire article less credible. VRavenn (talk) 20:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Change: Remove the word wealthy as it suggests that they are notably wealthy. He is but they are not. Sushidude21! (talk) 01:06, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

For context, it's this part of the lead: "A member of the wealthy South African Musk family, Musk was born in Pretoria..." Here's the previous discussion back in April-June and this was the new wording from June to November: Tikaboo (talk) 19:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose removal. As noted, the topic was recently discussed at length, and the general language in use has been shown to be well sourced. QRep2020 (talk) 02:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
Support removal of the WP:UNDUE emphasis on the family's wealth. While they were certainly not poor, the current wording strongly suggests that the Musk family was notably wealthy at the time of Elon's birth, which is not borne out by sources. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:57, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
Support removal (Summoned by bot) per Rosbif73 and for lack of WP:RS. If sufficient WP:RS can be provided that describes "the wealthy South African Musk family", then I would reconsider. --David Tornheim (talk) 15:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: it is treated as important context in most longer pieces, for example The Independent: "Mr Musk’s journey to such unimaginable wealth started from a position of financial privilege" and the NYT "Interviews with relatives and former classmates reveal an upbringing in elite, segregated white communities that were littered with anti-Black government propaganda, and detached from the atrocities that white political leaders inflicted on the Black majority." India Today "But he, by all means, was never poor. Neither was his family... But he did not acknowledge the part about his upbringing in a rich family." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Please provide links to the articles. I doubt I can read the NYT's article because of pay-wall. If you know of a free copy of the NYT article, I would look at it there. --David Tornheim (talk) 16:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sure you can find the articles from what I've provided. I would suggest the internet archive for accessing non-paywalled versions of the NYT Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose removal, we have plenty of sources for this... The Musks were wealthy even for a white family and in Apartheid South Africa even the poorest white families were relatively wealthy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
There's plenty of sources saying the family was wealthy when Elon was born in 1971? Can you provide them? The earliest I've seen them mentioned as wealthy is the mid 1980s. Tikaboo (talk) 15:40, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Unless you're suggesting that the Musk family was of a different race prior to the 1980s they were at least relatively wealthy, South Africa was a racially segregated society in which whites occupied a position of economic and social privilege. This is what the sources say, they treat the fact that Musk being born white under an apartheid regime as important context. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Nobody is disputing that the family was part of a privileged group within South African society at that time. But the current wording suggests that the family was notably wealthy at the time of Elon's birth, which is not borne out by sources. For that matter, it also implies that the family was itself a notable entity within that society, which again is not borne out by sources. In short, we are giving WP:UNDUE status to what was a relatively ordinary white family in that racially segregated society. Rosbif73 (talk) 10:03, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
It doesn't say notably wealthy, it suggest that his family's position of privilage in the context of Musk's bio which is how the sources treat it. None of the sources say that they were a relatively ordinary white family, remember that his mother was already notable when Musk was born (and his dad was borderline notable)... Which means that the family was a notable entity entity within that society when he was born. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
One or two notable members does not make a family a notable entity in its own right, per WP:NOTINHERITED. The Kennedys or the Rothschilds have long been notable, the Musk family was not in 1971. And I maintain that the current wording unduly emphasises a state of wealth at the time of Elon's birth that is totally unsourced. Rosbif73 (talk) 16:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
This isn't an argument about whether the family was a notable entity in its own right (it literally does not matter either way). If you think we go beyond the sources that would be easy to demonstrate, and a BLP bio to boot so you would be required to remove it instantly without waiting for consensus... So apparently you either don't believe what you are saying or don't believe in following BLP. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Support removal from lead. This is covered sufficiently in the body and isn't notable enough to justify inclusion into the lead of the article. This isn't a source issue. MOS:LEADBIO says the lead section should summarise with due weight the life and works of the person. Musk is notable for his career and work. The details about his early life are fine in the body. Nemov (talk) 18:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose. Sourced and relevant. Gamaliel (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Support removal from LEAD.JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:34, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose removal; we could always tweak the wording slightly, but his wealthy background is extremely well-sourced and treated as a major part of his biography in the sources, so it belongs in the lead. See eg. It's also worth pointing out that Musk's denials have themselves been discussed and dismissed in high-quality sources - see eg. --Aquillion (talk) 21:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose removal per above comments, it's well sourced, and despite not being in the MOS:OPENPARABIO; it provides the necessary context as desired for the paragraph it is introducing in the lead, ie background. Additionally, this predominantly serves as a wikilink to the quasi-child article Musk family, as thus per WP:SUMMARY, this link is beneficial in the lead. So the only question should be based on how we include it, rather than whether it is due for inclusion. While we could be regurgitating more of that article into the body, it naturally makes more sense to summarise in this article body, and ideally link in the lead also for convenience. This is similar to Views of Elon Musk and Twitter under Elon Musk, that are also linked in the lead (noting that the views article summary here is awful and nowhere near a SUMMARY of the child article, but that's another topic). Finally, this is otherwise notable context in the lead as there is an entire standalone article that justifies the notability of the Musk family (re:linking child articles in lead sections), which he was born into. So on this basis, and setting aside the South African as a descriptor that I think we can all agree on, I don't believe there is a more notable description than "wealthy" at this point, per sources. CNC (talk) 12:18, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose, the family someone was born into is important, and I think important enough to warrant a sentence fragment in a 5 paragraph lead. Photos of Japan (talk) 00:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose with qualifications, this aspect of his biography is sufficiently notable to include, however the wording as it currently stands does give the impression that the family itself is notable outside of its relationship to Elon, which I do not believe is the case. I would perhaps support a rewrite to something along the lines of "Born into a wealthy family in South Africa". Chaste Krassley (talk) 01:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Support removal unless we can be more precise. So much of the argumentabove is of the how long is a piece of string kind ie in this context, highly relative. It appears to be established that compared to most black South Africans of the time, the Musks were extremely privileged, (as were most whites) but relative to a successful US physician/academic/politician or film actor, maybe much less so, maybe on a par?? Certainly they were not in the super-wealthy class of families which the present text somewhat implies. The father's profession itself or some more precise social-class term would be clearer than this very vague phrasing. Terms in the sources such as "a position of financial privilege" … "a comfortable childhood" … "The relative privilege of his upbringing" do equate to being far-from-poor, but they don't clearly equate to simple 'wealthy'. Pincrete (talk) 09:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
I agree with @Pincrete. I think the term has to be defined better, these descriptions are all relative. The evidence points much more toward a middle class upbringing. Elons mom had to work 5 jobs to support her kids He went to public/hybrid schools not private schools. Wealthy white kids went to private schools None of this points towards what is described in the article. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 15:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
The linked article does not say that all wealthy white kids went to private school, you're making that up. According to Elon's mom when they divorced in 1979 the family had "two homes, a yacht, a plane, five luxury cars, and a truck" which doesn't sound middle class at all even by American standards (I grew up in a wealthy area and having two homes, a plane, five luxury cars, and a truck put you in the upper tier even there). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
It's not made up, the article says this was the legacy of apartheid. But please share where the Mom says those things, I would agree if that was their level of wealth that takes it out of the middle class category. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
The article doesn't say that all wealthy white kids went to private school, either now or under apartheid. The claim is from her book A Woman Makes a Plan: Advice for a Lifetime of Adventure, Beauty, and Success. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 09:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Two homes, a plane and five luxury cars in 1979 is reasonably wealthy by most people's standards, sure, but says nothing about their wealth in 1971 when Elon was born. Rosbif73 (talk) 10:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
You are forgetting the yacht and truck... And you're going in circles, remember you're arguing against reliable sources which say that the family was wealthy (at least in a relative sense) so you need to actually provide one which says otherwise. Quibbling that they don't give an exact amount of wealth for the day of Musk's birth but only a general description of that era for the family is bordering on tendentious. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose removal - I would not object to a hypothetical minor rewording or restructuring, but the information is both well sourced and relevant to the article, so this information should be kept in one form or another. (Don't take this !vote as arguing that we SHOULD reword it, just that I don't care about the specific wording as much as I care that the information is here) Fieari (talk) 01:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose removal wealthy is defined relative to the society/country one grows up in. It’s effectively a euphemism for social class, and this one word is very informative to the reader in summarising the early life section, and effectively says he had good opportunities available to him. I’m not opposed to changing it to something more obviously relative or something that captures what I’ve said better but I can’t think of anything except explicitly stating their class if sources agree. Kowal2701 (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose removal – Well-sourced in body of article and very relevant to understanding the rest of Musk's career. – MW_(t•c) 01:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Refs

References

Dole, Manoj. Great Businessman in the World. Manoj Dole. p. 27 – via Google Books. The Musk family was wealthy in his youth.
"How Elon Musk made his money - from emeralds to SpaceX and Tesla". The Independent. 28 October 2022. Retrieved 2025-01-06. Mr Musk's journey to such unimaginable wealth started from a position of financial privilege, albeit one of emotional abuse.
"How Rich Has Elon Musk Been During Every Decade of His Life?". finance.yahoo.com. Retrieved 2025-01-06. Elon Musk was born in Pretoria, South Africa, in 1971. His family was very well-off, and he had a comfortable childhood.
Reid, Charles J. Jr (2023). "Two There Are That Rule the World: Private Power and Political Authority". University of St. Thomas Law Journal. 19: 3. A native South African whose family had grown wealthy thanks to mining interests...
Rhodes, Carl (21 January 2025). Stinking Rich: The Four Myths of the Good Billionaire. Policy Press. pp. 60–61. ISBN 978-1-5292-3910-2 – via Google Books. The relative privilege of his upbringing is clearly a sore point for Musk and obsessively denying it is all part of his need to assert his own heroic self-made status.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/elon-musks-mom-worked-5-jobs-to-raise-3-kids-after-her-divorce.html. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
"Private Schools in South Africa".

Discussion

Before we can even discuss whether this is worthy of inclusion in the lead, it needs to be sourced right? Are there any sources stating the Musk family was wealthy when Elon was born? Tikaboo (talk) 19:20, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

yes here https://www.independent.co.uk/space/elon-musk-made-money-rich-b2212599.html "We were very wealthy. We had so much money at times we couldn't even close our safe," --FMSky (talk) 23:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

That's referring to the mid 1980s, Elon was born in 1971. Tikaboo (talk) 06:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/elon-musks-mom-worked-5-jobs-to-raise-3-kids-after-her-divorce.html I don’t think a mom working five jobs to support her family describes a wealthy upbringing. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

https://dailyinvestor.com/technology/42510/elon-musk-sets-record-straight-about-south-african-upbringing/ the wealthy upbringing narrative is debunked here. He went to public school in South Africa. Rich families send their kids to private schools in SA because of the difference in the quality of education between public and private. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:39, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a misunderstanding of the South African educational context... There were historically very few fully private schools in South Africa with most elite schools following a hybrid model where they received state funds, had boarding students, had selective admissions, were white only, and charged tuition. Musk went to such a hybrid school, Pretoria Boys High. These are not distinguishable from private schools in the American context and certainly indicated a relatively high standard of living for the Musks even among comparable white families. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I know this is a relative assessment and very open to interpretation, but he only transferred to that school after the bullying that nearly killed him at Bryanston High School, a state run public school, not a hybrid and certainly not for the wealthy. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Bryanston High School is also a hybrid, it charges tuition and has selective admissions... It is certainly for the wealthy, and whites only at that time in history. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not denying what you say, you seem to have more knowledge of these things than me, but do you have evidence of these claims you are making? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 05:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Here is the tuition fee schedule for Bryanston High School and for Pretoria Boys High . Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

https://www.expatica.com/za/education/children-education/education-in-south-africa-803205/ Do you know that all public schools in South Africa are a hybrid system? Which means Bryanston and Pretoria Boys High are normal public schools, does it not?. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

That is not what the linked article says, it says that schools are currently divided into five quintiles by catchment area income with the schools in the top two quintiles able to charge school fees. You're also overlooking the apartheid aspect of it, today these are integrated schools but then only students from privileged racial classes could apply. A school where admissions is directly racially determined is not a normal public school however else you want to cut the pie. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

"Mr Musk’s journey to such unimaginable wealth started from a position of financial privilege, albeit one of emotional abuse." ] Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 4 January 2025 (UTC) "Elon Musk was born in Pretoria, South Africa, in 1971. His family was very well-off, and he had a comfortable childhood." ]. Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the sourcing, Slatersteven. Do you oppose the removal from the lead paragraph? QRep2020 (talk) 16:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on the above a rewrite would be better. Slatersteven (talk) 17:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Bias regarding Mr. Musk's views

The article states the following --> He has been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation, affirming antisemitic and transphobic comments, and promoting conspiracy theories.

The statement is biased in that it avers his comments and actions actually are unscientific and misleading. In truth, Mr. Musk and millions of others do not agree with that perspective. It would not be biased to say the he has been criticized for alleged unscientific and misleading statements.

Here is Misplaced Pages's own policy on points of view.

Misplaced Pages's policy on a neutral point of view, articles must represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias,

47.13.37.229 (talk) 23:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles should reflect what reliable sources have to say on a subject. The fact that "millions" disagree is not relevant. It would be relevant, however, if you can show that some some sources have been given undue weight. best wishes Flat Out (talk) 23:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't get it. How is antisemitism "unscientific"? What scientific claims does it make? Dimadick (talk) 01:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Well we would need to see examples, but one might be they are genetically inferior. But I agree general hatred of Jews is not science. Slatersteven (talk) 10:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's a good question, and agree with @Slatersteven's response. I wonder if the grammar of the sentence is a bit confusing? Is it supposed to mean.. "He has been criticized for: making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation; affirming antisemitic and transphobic comments; and promoting conspiracy theories."? I think whatever the meaning, a verb is needed before "COVID-19 misinformation", e.g. "spreading" DecFinney (talk) 13:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that adding "alleged" or some variation would keep this more in line with WP:BLP Big Thumpus (talk) 01:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, and there's factually nothing scientific about this. The statement is already neutral EarthDude (talk) 11:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I see no bias in the statement. It says what he has been criticized for, and it is a fact that that criticism has been made. If anything, the statement is mild. In recent days, he has been criticized by numerous world leaders for his overt interference in other countries' political processes. Jeppiz (talk) 14:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This language was the result of a previous Talk page discussion. If editors take issue with the language, please refer to the arguments therein first. QRep2020 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The bias in this article is unreal. It actually works as a hit piece. The purpose is to paint Mr. Musk in a negative light using emotionally loaded, and sensationalized verbiage. However some will not see that, as it is a reflection of their own subjective thoughts towards Musk. 2601:18C:8183:D410:8107:B7E4:99B9:A5C5 (talk) 20:59, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

People can claim anything is biased. Saying something is biased doesn't actually mean much at all. Especially on Misplaced Pages where arguments are centered around policies and guidelines, and not if you feel like something is "biased". Photos of Japan (talk) 04:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

People can claim anything is unbiased. Saying something is unbiased doesn't actually mean much at all. Especially on Misplaced Pages where arguments are centered around policies and guidelines, and not if you feel like something is "unbiased." See how that works? 2601:18C:8183:D410:8107:B7E4:99B9:A5C5 (talk) 02:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

All writings reflect their authors' biases, and Misplaced Pages is no exception. Asserting otherwise is misguided. Policies and guidelines are often overlooked to promote consensus. 2601:340:8200:800:51A0:6BE4:9EFC:7B03 (talk) 05:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I can agree there are issues of neutrality in places, I have a Talk discussion open on one such paragraph. I would like evidence for what supporter's consider to be his most positive characteristics/philosophies, and I think examples of evidence might help this discussion be more constructive. If you have any, please share. I agree with the sentiment of other responses - it doesn't matter what we think is biased or what view we have of Musk or guess that millions of people think, any statement needs a robust evidence source - I have been struggling to find that from the positive point of view. DecFinney (talk) 13:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Our job is easy. We don't look for a positive or negative view. We don't make such evaluations. We publish what reliable sources say. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The lead specifically says views are polarised. That means people have positive and negative views of Musk. Since the paragraph only lists criticisms, it is not neutral. It is good editorial practice to represent the range of views. In the kindest judgement this means editors have not come across sources that provide positive viewpoints. I am very happy to assume that, but in this age of algorithm control of search results, the assumption that the sources you come across can be representative does not seem reliable. I would say robust editing involves one to look for a range of resources that represent the apparent range of opinion. DecFinney (talk) 14:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

We always look at a range of sources. But the sources must be reliable. If you look at unreliable sources, you can find many that say the Earth is flat. And 15-20% of millennials believe this. We are not going to add that possibility to satisfy those readers. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree the sources must be reliable. I requested robust evidence. I consider reliability to a component of robustness. DecFinney (talk) 14:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You can request sources, but evidence is irrelevant because we don't do original research. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Elon_Musk_(Isaacson_book) covers Musk’s transformative first-principles engineering philosophy, hands-on leadership, and customer-focused innovation. It highlights his emphasis on speed, execution, and challenging the status quo, driving ambitious goals like Mars colonization and electric vehicles. Musk's frugality, resilience, relentless work ethic, autodidacticism and appetite for risk allow him to lead across industries. His provocative, direct communication style, creativity, and humor inspire and challenge his teams. 2601:340:8200:800:5821:DB76:CB45:FDA8 (talk) 13:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Most people (if not all of them) think that they alone are good judges of "neutrality". They are also frequently wrong. One single book by an author whose whole personal brand is "biographies of geniuses" does not constitute the a rebuttal to the mountains of less-biased sources that support how the article is currently written. plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

If the highest-quality sources describe his statements as unscientific and misleading, then we have to reflect that statement. Inserting "alleged" or the like would be a violation of WP:WEASEL as well as violating WP:NPOV's requirement to treat unequivocal facts as facts. It's especially important here because many of his positions may be scientifically WP:FRINGE. The fact that some random people on the street might disagree doesn't change things - we decide truth based on the best available sources (which, especially for scientific matters, means ones by academic experts.) This is no different than our articles on, for instance, climate change or vaccines - plenty of people believe in fringe positions on those things, but our articles have to present the scientific consensus as fact. It is not editorial bias to do that - it is accurately summarizing the sources. In fact, it would be editorial bias to look at those sources and then say "well some people might not like this, so let's cram an 'alleged' in front of it that isn't in the sources." The editorial there is vital - it means that we cannot add bias ourselves. The flipside of that is that we're not permitted to censor or downplay a clear consensus among the sources simply because an editor believes it to be biased, since that would be another form of editorial bias on our parts. --Aquillion (talk) 21:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
See The Hill for example. We need a little more of the other side of the 'Polarisation' - or a little less of the negative side.

"Sen. John Fetterman (D-Pa.) offered praise for tech billionaire Elon Musk and his career on Thursday, while acknowledging they may not always see eye-to-eye on political issues.

“I admire Mr. Musk. He’s been involved in very important parts of American society: AI, SpaceX and other kinds of things,” Fetterman told reporters on Capitol Hill in an interview Thursday.

“Yes, he is on a different team, but that doesn’t make me an enemy,” he continued. “I don’t … automatically going to become a critic.”

The Pennsylvania Democrat added, “It’s like, ‘Hey, he has made our economy and our nation better.’ And our politics are different, and I don’t agree with some of the things that he might say, but that doesn’t make him, like I said, an enemy.”" Lukewarmbeer (talk) 19:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

“Shadow Vice President” claims from media

Should we add that some Democrats and media outlets have called him a “shadow vice president” or “shadow vice president” under the Politics section? 2600:100C:A21D:971A:6533:6A3:6518:BBF1 (talk) 23:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

No, we should not. WP:NOTNEWS Big Thumpus (talk) 01:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

NO, more Trivia. Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

NO. Biased media scandalmongering JamieBrown2011 (talk) 10:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

It may (or may not) be notable that President-elect Donald Trump responded to these references on Dec. 22, when he said this about Musk: "But no, he's not gonna be president. That I can tell you. And I’m safe. You know why? He can’t be. He wasn’t born in this country." Or maybe that note, if it's worth mentioning anywhere, should go in the separate "Political activities of Elon Musk" article?

Anywhere, here's one story about Trump's comments:

Fact Check: Trump Is Right — Elon Musk Can't Be President. Here's Why NME Frigate (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry: "Anyway" not "Anywhere." NME Frigate (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

It's something to consider eventually, but we should wait and see if there's WP:SUSTAINED coverage, especially once Trump is actually in office. --Aquillion (talk) 21:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Improving neutrality of an introductory paragraph

In my opinion, the current state of paragraph beginning "Musk's actions and expressed views have made him a polarizing figure...." does not meet my expectations of neutrality. It claims he is polarising but proceeds to describe only criticisms of him.

Below I propose a new version of the paragraph which attempts to improve neutrality using evidence:

of his polarising effect,
that public opinion of him is in flux
of what, I think, people like about him, i.e. libertarianism.

I struggle to do point 3 full justice as it is not of my opinion, but I think it at least creates space for that to be made clear and robust in time.

Do people support such a change? Are there any corrections or suggested edits?

Proposed new version of the paragraph:

Musk's actions and expressed views have made him a polarizing figure. In a 2024 survey, about 40% of Americans had at least a somewhat favorable view of him, while about 50% had at least a somewhat unfavorable view. The public's impression of Musk has changed over time. For instance, after his purchase of Twitter, a lower proportion of people described him as an “innovator” or “visionary” compared to 8 months earlier. Meanwhile, a higher proportion described him as “impulsive”. He has been described as having a passion for free speech and free markets, building on the “tech libertarianism” philosophy. However, Musk has been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation, affirming antisemitic and transphobic comments, and promoting conspiracy theories. His ownership of Twitter has been controversial because of large employee layoffs, an increase in posts containing hate speech, misinformation and disinformation on the service, and changes to service features, including verification. DecFinney (talk) 17:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It just adds words to an already long article. Slatersteven (talk) 17:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

No, It would make the lead too long. Maybe, we can just add "In a 2024 survey, about 40% of Americans had at least a somewhat favorable view of him, while about 50% had at least a somewhat unfavorable view.", and not add the rest of what you're proposing. I feel like that would be a good balance EarthDude (talk) 18:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I accept the article and leader are long.

Only keeping the first sentence (i.e. on 2024 survey) does not add balance on its own because it only quantifies the existing first sentence of the paragraph. For balance, the third sentence (i.e. on free speech and markets) is most powerful because it states a key aspect of Musk that people may favour. The free speech and markets point is fundamental to understand his polarising position because it is why many may see the criticised points as necessary to achieve something they see as positive.

Therefore, I propose to drop the first sentences and add the survey references to citations on the existing first sentence of the paragraph as "polarizing" is not well evidenced. And I propose to instead keep the sentence "He has been described..."

If the edit needs to be a near-zero change in characters then further balance can be achieved by reducing the list of criticisms. The criticisms listed are repeating text on the "views of elon musk" and "twitter and elon musk" pages. Furthermore, both sentences relate to many of the same things (e.g. misinformation and hate speech).

It could become something like the following:

"However, Musk has been criticized for affirming hate speech, promoting conspiracy theories, and making misleading statements, including disseminating COVID-19 misinformation. His ownership of Twitter has been seen to promote these behaviours on the platform, and has also been controversial due to high employee layoffs and changes to service features, including verification." DecFinney (talk) 08:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

This kind of sums up the problem, (arguably) his most well-regarded "achievement" (social, as opposed to technology) was the promotion of "free speech", which to many of either a dog whilst ort just a lack of common sense, as it is seen as enabling racism and fascism. Slatersteven (talk) 13:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree, though I don't see why it is a problem. His promotion of "free speech" seems key to the paragraph's focus on his polarising character, in that people have different opinions of the consequences of his approach to "free speech". So, whilst I'm happy to use the survey based approach (as proposed by @Entinator) instead of the politico link, I think the politico link and "free speech" point are more pertinent. If trying to limit new characters, I would choose something along those lines instead of survey results. DecFinney (talk) 14:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

He also stood against free speech while claiming to stand by it. For example, he cracked down and censored journalist accounts on Twitter. Source: https://www.npr.org/2022/12/16/1143330589/twitter-owner-elon-musk-suspends-the-accounts-of-several-high-profile-journalist EarthDude (talk) 18:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

This. In practice, his actual stance towards "free speech" could be more accurately described as "any speech I don't personally object to". M!dgard (talk) 13:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The 'unscientific' comes from a lengthy Talk page discussion. Mentioning criticisms described by the article in a lead paragraph is perfectly acceptable. QRep2020 (talk) 12:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I only removed "unscientific" to reduce words more. It could stay in.

I am not suggesting criticisms should not be repeated in the lead. I am saying I consider it important that this paragraph is written neutrally, and should therefore at least have 1 sentence which states something that supporters may favour about Musk. I am proposing length reduction, not removal, of the list of criticisms in order to satisfy the comments here requesting no lengthening of the leader. There are still many more criticisms listed in the paragraph than there are positive points.

New draft of paragraph:

"Musk's actions and expressed views have made him a polarizing figure. He has been described as having a passion for free speech and free markets, building on the “tech libertarianism” philosophy. However, he has been criticized for affirming hate speech, promoting conspiracy theories, and making unscientific and misleading statements, including disseminating COVID-19 misinformation. His ownership of Twitter has been seen to promote these behaviours on the platform, and has also been controversial due to high employee layoffs and changes to service features, including verification." DecFinney (talk) 07:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree putting the stats in is interesting, but could also be placed in the section about his public perception. It would be good to contrast what he is criticized for with what he is praised for in a single sentence. You say "free speech and markets" is what you believe people like. It would be more relevant to state what the 40% actually agree with. "Innovator" and "visionary" seem to be direct citations of positive perceptions, the source you have for those probably provides more concrete statements. Entinator (talk) 12:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Second. QRep2020 (talk) 23:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree. Better to have a new section like 'Musk in the opinion polls' or something. I'm not a lover of polls becoming central to an article. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 10:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Um... this is Misplaced Pages. Neutrality on political figures is not our strong suit. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Add the pronunciation of "X Æ A-Xii" (one of his child's name)

I cannot edit the article, as I rarely contribute to the English Misplaced Pages. Could someone with editing permissions please add this sentence to the 'Relationships and children' section (before 'They have received criticism for choosing a name perceived to be impractical and difficult to pronounce.'):

According to Grimes, the name is pronounced (the letter 'X', followed by 'A' and 'I'), while Musk states it is pronounced (the letter 'X', 'Æ' pronounced as 'Ash', followed by 'A-12' as 'A twelve').

Here is my source: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/elon-musk-child-name-grimes-pronounce-x-b2469396.html

Thanks Renardeau.arctique (talk) 23:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

We need to describe the Musk that exists today

It's absurd that we still describe him in the first sentence only as a "businessman known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc." That is not what he is best known for today. His political meddling (now also in Europe), his far-right politics, and his promotion of conspiracy theories are what he is best known for today. "A polarizing figure" doesn't adequately summarize how he is viewed today. He has openly promoted fascist and even neo-Nazi politics. We need to have something about far-right politics and conspiracy theories in the first section. --Tataral (talk) 17:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I disagree, he has only been known for that for (what?) a year. Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Closer to two. In any event, he is described by many as the effective co-president or shadow president of the United States. He tries to topple governments, supports far-right neo-Nazi parties and politicians in Germany and the United Kingdom, etc., etc. His past life as a businessman known for Tesla is trivial in comparison to the role he now plays in world politics. --Tataral (talk) 17:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

And he is a lot older than 4, thus this is really recent thing, and when (and if) he actually topples a government this might change. He is still only a businessman, one who happens to own a social media company used to amplify his voice. Slatersteven (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That is not how he is perceived today, and it is not the standard that Misplaced Pages follows. --Tataral (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

He has not openly promoted fascist or neo-Nazi policies... Some people appear to be living in alternative realities. Ergzay (talk) 21:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

You're right, you are apparently living in an alternate reality where he didn't use his ownership of twitter to spread the conspiracy theory that jews are encouraging immigration to exterminate whites, and where he didn't support the far-right AfD party in germany, and where he didn't make a nazi salute twice at Trump's inauguration.

This is why editing the article to come across as "neutral" to his fans is a losing proposition. It is impossible to accurately describe reality while appeasing those who are ideologically opposed to acknowledging it. (See also: the talk page for "Evolution".) plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 22:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I have had my say, it is now time for others. Slatersteven (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Following the creation of the presidential commission Department of Government Efficiency which is likely to be in the next couple of days since the inauguration of Donald Trump today, I think it would be prudent to describe musk as "is a businessman and political figure known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc and since 2025 has served as the Commissioner for the Department of Government Efficiency, under the Second Trump Administration.

I feel that this change should only go into place following the creation of this department by executive order. Side note that the title for the head of this department is likely to be Commissioner/ Co-Commissioner or Chairman/ Co-Chairman but title could change. Knowledgework69 (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That's pretty reasonable. Far better than the attacking far-left dribble bias promoted by the original poster of this discussion. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

as of 20 January 2025 the department of government efficiency has been established by executive order, under the authoirty of the 47th president of the united states. with elon musk being appointed as sole leader of said organisation due to the resignation of Vivek Ramaswamy in order for him to run for governor of the state of Ohio.

Pursuant to this executive order Elon Musk is now a member of the Federal government of the United States as such it should be mentioned in his preamble, in line with other government officials as of this date Elon Musk holds the position of The Administrator of The U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization. as such I shall be including my pre mentioned edit, with the correction of his title into Musk's preamble.

@Fyunck(click) @Slatersteven @Tataral Knowledgework69 (talk) 06:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Controversial Salute

I understand User:PickleG13 has previously attempted to install this development, quickly erased by User:Slatersteven.

Why is this the case? It is evidently proving to be a significant story, reported by numerous trusted mainstream press outlets. There is no established consensus on The Jerusalem Post, either, but it is suitable given the context of antisemitism. Hauntbug (talk) 21:54, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Because it really is speculation, and may this is a BLP, not a new paper. Slatersteven (talk) 21:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Suggest snow: here the links The Guardian The Jerusalem Post QalasQalas (talk) 22:01, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The Independent

PBS Newshour QRep2020 (talk) 22:42, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Now the New York Times is reporting on it.

The New York Times "Mr. Musk twice extended his arm out with his palm facing down, drawing comparisons to the Nazi salute." Marincyclist (talk) 22:58, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The video literally shows that his palm is facing upward in the second one. They're literally lying. Ergzay (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

You are mistaken, or lying. Palm is clearly down in both "salutes". – Muboshgu (talk) 23:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you bend your arm backwards when you raise your arm to thank someone? I certainly never do. My hand is "facing upwards" even though it's technically still facing with some angle toward the ground.

I'm really getting tired of these disingenuous arguments. These arguments are emotionally manipulative to make it look like the guy's a Nazi. Ergzay (talk) 23:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I presented you video of Musk doing the salute twice with palm down both times. It is not disingenuous or emotionally manipulative to WP:SPADE. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

He was not doing a salute. He was thanking the crowd with a "throwing heart" motion. Ergzay (talk) 23:28, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

As stated earlier, this interpretation is your WP:OR. Multiple RS are comparing his gesture to a nazi salute. Marincyclist (talk) 23:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I mean, it is very obviously a Nazi salute, and he did it twice, so it isn't like it was an "accident". RSs are reporting he did the salute, so he did. E_F 13:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It's interesting that you'd accuse anyone else of being "disingenuous" given that you have been presented with obvious evidence, multiple times, that you are being untruthful in your defense of Musk. plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 23:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Please stay on topic and focus on content, not contributors. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:06, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not evidence of anything. He was literally throwing his heart out to the crowd. People who believe this stuff need to put down their foggles. Ergzay (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

you need to look up the word literally 71.168.184.112 (talk) 10:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

He did it twice. It's very clear at least one of it is an attempt at a nazi salute. You don't wave to people like that. Anyone who has seen the accounts he interacts with, boost and defend on twitter (openly fascist ones and mazis), would understand exactly what he is doing. Someone on Bluesky theorised he attempted to do a mix of wave/nazi salute with plausible deniability, but was overly enthusiastic and made it an obvious salute instead. Of course some media will pretend otherwise. But enough reliable sources call is for what it is. Let's call a spade a spade.Squeezdakat (talk) 12:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

If you actually watch the video he says "My heart goes out to you" and brings his hand to his heart and then out to the crowd. This section should not even be added to Misplaced Pages when it was clearly taken out of context. If this is to be included, we should include this type of entry into most there politicians who have accidentally imaged a nazi salute when they have waved or interacted with a crowd. There is photos and videos of notable figures who do not have whole Misplaced Pages sections who have made this gesture: Elizabeth Warren, Barack Obama, Kamala Harris, and more.

This needs to be removed. TimeToFixThis (talk) 01:47, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

He happened to touch his shoulder, then send his arm out in a 45 degree angle above his head. These two movements, in conjunction, have a name. That name is the Sieg Heil. drdr150 Yell at me Spy on me 02:56, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't disagree with Slatersteven that this is speculation, but I do think we should open a wider Talk Page discussion about this because I believe that is exactly the point. Many of Musk's statements that are alleged to be antisemitic could be argued to reflect wider conspiracy theories, rather than deeply held anti-Jewish sentiment. However, they make major news and are the subject of discussion. If we should take a day or two to see how this settles into the news cycle, I definitely accept that, but even the concept of a Nazi salute in American public life is a major deal. It is a controversy, and if it is to be labeled a Roman salute in further defense, that adds to the fascism controversy as well. PickleG13 (talk) 22:03, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The difference is that a "nazi salute" could just be waving at someone, a picture is a snapshot. Slatersteven (talk) 22:07, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

It isn’t merely an embarrassing freeze-frame, Elon beat his chest and stretched the arm to indicate unambiguously a salute. There is now widespread political commentary, of journalists criticising it. I agree that we should wait as the story develops, however, it will certainly be notable as an allegation against Elon’s involvement in far-right ideology. Hauntbug (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

It is precisely an embaressing freeze-frame. He was in the middle of thanking the crowd and grabbed his heart and "threw it" out to the crowd in front and then did the same to the crowd behind him. Try it. Put your right hand over your heart in a clenched fist then fling your arm out to the right springing open your hand. You end up in exactly the position he's in with your hand out stretched, fingers spread and your hand tilted slightly upward from your arm. This whole thing is internet drama that violates basic BLP page quality standards. Ergzay (talk) 22:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

grabbed his heart and "threw it" out to the crowd is your WP:OR. I would never do what he did because it looks like a Nazi salute. We need to give this enough time to see how RS cover it, beyond the immediate "apparent fascist salute" headlines. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:51, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Here's ADL saying it isn't a Nazi salute. https://x.com/ADL/status/1881474892022919403 Ergzay (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Let’s Call the ADL What It Is: an Ally of Fascists | The Nation – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The only reason that article got written is because of the unpopularity of Israel's war with Hamas and ADL's support of israel, not because they've suddenly become antisemitic themselves. Ergzay (talk) 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

The article was written because the ADL has taken an odd stance around Trump-related Naziism recently. I put their excuse of Musk in that bucket. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Trump isn't Nazi and dosen't support nazis... If you mean hate groups like proud boys, ADL does not defend them. Ergzay (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I mean all white nationalists he refuses to condemn, from David Duke down to the Proud Boys. ADL is oddly silent, or making excuses. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

"Refusing to condemn" is a purity test that's generally inappropriate to use. You shouldn't use the "you're either for them or against them" type arguments. Ergzay (talk) 06:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Let's try to stay on topic here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 10:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

On the one hand, we have an opinion piece written in a fringe left wing publication by a rival advocacy group generally bashing the ADL on an unrelated topic. On the other hand, here's how well established RS (The New York Times) refer to their specific comments on this salute.

The Anti-Defamation League, which has tangled with Mr. Musk in the past, later said on X that Mr. Musk had “made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm” and that it was “not a Nazi salute.” The organization added that “all sides should give one another a bit of grace.”

So NYT not only highlights their explanation of the issue, it notes that the ADL is no fan of Musk and implies that it might be expected to be even less charitable to him. KiharaNoukan (talk) 00:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Former ADL chief Abe Foxman blasts group for muted response to Trump’s MSG rally | The Times of Israel – Muboshgu (talk) 23:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Anti-Defamation_League Ergzay (talk) 23:14, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Closed June 2024, before they didnt respond to Trump's Nazi rally. Probably out of date. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Feel free to open another one then, but point stands it's a reliable source as considered by Misplaced Pages. Ergzay (talk) 23:16, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I might have to. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:19, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Doesn't the Nazi salute fall under antisemitism anyway (WP:ADLAS)? Alpha3031 (t • c) 06:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It does lol — 🧀Cheesedealer 07:25, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Saying that Elon Musk isn't a fascist on a platform he runs and has a history of censoring criticism on is hardly evidence. drdr150 Yell at me Spy on me 18:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

In 2022, the leader of the ADL also favorably compared Elon Musk to Henry Ford, apparently unaware that Ford was notoriously antisemitic. The organization's response to Musk's gesture yesterday should certainly be noted, but so should criticism of their response.

(For whatever it's worth, today the ADL condemned Donald Trump's decision to pardon some 1,500 participants in the Jan. 6th insurrection, saying that move "undermines accountability and risks reinvigorating violent extremists".)

Musk himself responded to the ADL's tweet encouraging "grace" with the message "Thanks guys" followed by the laughing while crying emoji. Is he laughing at the ADL? Is he laughing at the whole sitaution? Does he just like to play games with public opinion? (If so, why doesn't he pay someone to boost his score?) Is he like the Kitchen brothers in Fargo silently gesturing that their shoe size is eleven? Is he like people egregiously making the "OK" sign after it emerged that some extremists used it to signify "white power"? Many of those copycats just liked being subversive and edgy.

And is there any connection between the gesture and what he said next? ("It is thanks to you that the future of civilization is assured.") I've seen suggestions that he's referencing the "fourteen words" with that statement, but I think without the prior gesticulation, that remark would be seen as entirely anodyne. NME Frigate (talk) 22:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Some members of the ADL's own staff have pointed out that lately the organization seems to be more interested in supporting the state of Israel than actually opposing antisemitism in the general case. Forgetting their own organization's opposition of Ford's Dearborn Independent seems on-brand for the new leadership. plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 23:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting something which is so very clear. No, his palm was not facing upwards, that's just untrue. No, it was not a throwing hearts sign. It was very clearly a sieg heil. Elon even did it twice. EarthDude (talk) 13:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It's even worse in the video. :) E_F 13:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Those on the far-right are characterizing this as a Nazi salute and celebrating it. Marincyclist (talk) 23:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Confirmation bias at play. Ergzay (talk) 23:29, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

It is very obviously a nazi salute to anyone with eyes. He even did it twice (once to the crowd, once to the leader) just like the nazis did. plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 23:19, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Comment: What Elon Musk did is not a Nazi salute or Roman salute. you can easily locate images and videos of left and right wing politicians doing the same thing. This is a case of people seeing what they want to see. ]. currently from what I can see no reliable sources are actually saying he was doing a Roman salute. The articles that are saying he was are either opinion pieces, or are considered unreliable by Misplaced Pages.

From Politico "The Anti-Defamation League notably defended the billionaire in a post on X, “It seems that made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute, but again, we appreciate that people are on edge.” ]Zyxrq (talk) 00:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. This is sensitive time. Look at all the democrat leaders doing the same "salute" JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The difference is that those images are pictures of people waving, while we have video evidence of Musk touching his shoulder and launching his arm out over his head at a 45 degree angle. There is a name for this, and it is called a Seig Heil. drdr150 Yell at me Spy on me 18:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Nah, not the random WP:TWITTER post as a source bruh — 🧀Cheesedealer 07:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

This is original research. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 07:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Is the Anti-Defemation League reliable in this matter considering they consider 'Free Palestine' to be anti semitic? It's clear they act to further Israel's interest and are willing to defend Musk, who is a zionist. Squeezdakat (talk) 12:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Is Musk a zionist or is he a nazi? Or are you claiming he's both? Words have meaning. Ergzay (talk) 18:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Those are not mutually exclusive. Are you aware that a significant faction of right-wing Christian fundamentalists, for example, support the Zionist cause because they think it will bring about the Second Coming? Or that there are anti-Semites who support a Jewish homeland so that they Jewish people are in the homeland, as opposed to other places? 136.55.168.45 (talk) 03:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

As the other person said, they are not mutually exclusive terms. Musk promotes fascists, including nazis, and is also a zionist. Squeezdakat (talk) 04:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, Elon Musk, the man who performed the action himself, doesn't think its a "nazi/far-right/fascist" salute.

Top level he's made denying it:

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881536518206218445

Tweet's he's replied to/reposted agreeing with the statements/denying it:

https://x.com/kimbal/status/1881536140572045472

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881536708388528348

https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/1881539485071994939

https://x.com/Thompsonklay/status/1881539657974136847

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881543856199700727

https://x.com/stillgray/status/1881511383600447817

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881534446639501320

https://x.com/AutismCapital/status/1881525932248477720

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881526554100203739

https://x.com/GadSaad/status/1881513315299668386

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881520368235765866

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881520634343387474

https://x.com/AdamCollettX/status/1881492336305471755

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881512076344217868

https://x.com/ADL/status/1881474892022919403

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881510804006269080

Ergzay (talk) 06:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:MANDY applies. Of course he'll deny what we saw with our lying eyes. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:19, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

He's not denying he made the motion. So that's irrelevant. Ergzay (talk) 18:08, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

This is mincing words to the point of disrespect. He’s denying the meaning of the motion and significance of the act. 136.55.168.45 (talk) 03:11, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's worth re-emphasizing that Musk doesn't actually deny in any of those tweets that his gesture was a Nazi salute. Not once.

In fact, in one of them, he supports another Twitter user's argument that no one should ever be compared to a Nazi because "it didn't work, it's not working now, it's tired, boring, and old material".

That is, in effect, a call to let even undeniable Nazis say what they like without being criticized as Nazis. NME Frigate (talk) 22:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I have now seen the video, and yes it looks to me like a Nazi salute, arm straight out. So it seems to me that if RS say it is (and I think it is) we can say he has ben accused of it. Slatersteven (talk) 09:19, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

If you think Elon Musk is a nazi you'll believe it's a nazi salute. This is just a rorschach test if anything. Ergzay (talk) 09:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Odd as my OP doubts it based upon a picture, but it has changed now I have seen the video. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. It is not a wave. And read wp:agf.Slatersteven (talk) 09:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I am assuming good faith. I fully believe you think what you are saying and that you are convinced it's a nazi salute. Ergzay (talk) 10:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No, as you do not know what I think about musk. Slatersteven (talk) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Ergzay is mistaken in believing this is a Rorschach test: I didn't think Musk was an actual nazi (I'm not from the US and I don't care about Musk), then I watched the clip and was instantly convinced. No-one makes this gesture with their arm and hand extended like this, unless it's a nazi salute. M!dgard (talk) 13:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Addendum: I'm referring to the first salute. The second salute looks like a regular greeting. It is possible that the second one was meant to "correct" accidental behaviour. This happens often in human psychology. Ergzay is making it hard to keep assuming their good faith by arguing against rather clear evidence. M!dgard (talk) 13:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The first "salute" (it wasn't a salute) has his hand bent upward from his arm. It's not parallel with his arm. That's not a salute it's a "throwing your heart out to the crowd". BTW I'll add he's continuing to laugh about people who actually think it was a nazi salute on twitter with plenty of memes about it. Ergzay (talk) 17:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a convenient way to both side a very obvious gesture. Fact is it's a fast straight thrust of the right arm at a particular angle amd withdrawal, with no actual waving. Yeah you can find pics of Obama holding his arm at the same angle. But he was waving then. But the action at that situation makes it undeniable. You don't need to even know Elon Musk to understand this. (edit, added a sentence) Squeezdakat (talk) 13:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No you do need to know Elon Musk. He's has autism spectrum disorder and he went on stage in an extremely excitable state and was gesturing wildly throughout his whole speech. I've again removed it and will continue to remove it. Ergzay (talk) 17:34, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

A bit off-topic here, but that is zero excuse to go throwing up fascist symbols. I have ADHD and probably have undiagnosed autism, yet I don't go around seig-hieling and blaming it on my mental state. "He has autism" is zero excuse. E_F 17:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't say it's an excuse to throw up fascist symbols. I'm saying he didn't make a fascist symbol. He threw up his arm thanking the crowd. Not everyone is hyper aware of trying to avoid the slightest hint of making any arm motion that makes you look strange. (I'm personally frankly extremely tired that people throwing their arms in strange directions gets you automatically marked as some kind of nazi. It's intellectually dishonest to continue this type of nonsense.) The media of course loves it because they get free clicks. This whole arm thing got more media attention than the inauguration itself. Ergzay (talk) 17:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

He pumped his right hand to his heart, and then reached up with his right hand, palm up. The second time was the same thing, but he wasn't biting his lip. It was 100% a fascist (or Roman, at that) salute, and I'm not arguing over what my eyes see. George Orwell once said "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.", and the media agrees that it was questionable at best. E_F 17:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

He's right hand dominant so anyone would thank people with their right hand so the right hand thing is irrelevant. He grabbed his fist to his heart to throw his heart out to the crowd in the front right and then again to those behind him. When he reached out to the right, the palm at a higher angle than the rest of his arm as if in a wave, and then the same thing to the audience behind him similarly palm at a higher angle than his arm. It was not a "fasicst" or "Roman" salute. It wasn't a salute at all. Ergzay (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

We need to stay focused just on what the sources say, @Ergzay, and to avoid OR. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I think if we abandon all reason and blindly copy paste the interpretation of sources even when they're in a state of mass delusion we are not doing our jobs as editors. Ergzay (talk) 18:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

We follow RS. We don't accuse them of "mass delusion" if we don't personally agree with them. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

This is not about personal agreement. This is about what is obvious from primary sources that anyone can see that doesn't have predispositions to see everything as nazi. Ergzay (talk) 18:18, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

anyone can see that doesn't have predispositions to see everything as nazi. Are you talking about sources or editors? We surely don't use sources that see everything as Nazi. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

1. Elon Musk has never been diagnosed with autism.

2. Even if he had, compulsive fascist hand gestures are not a recognized symptom of autism.

It is clear that you are just throwing every disingenuous argument you can think of at the wall in the hopes one will stick. plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 23:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it might be reasonable for this article to note that some people defending Elon Musk from accusations that his gesture was a Nazi salute are explaining what he did as deriving from his autism. Here are four news articles that mention it:

1. "Aaron Astor, a history professor at Maryville College in Tennessee, posted: “This is a socially awkward autistic man’s wave to the crowd where he says ‘my heart goes out to you.’” (Musk has previously disclosed that he has Asperger’s syndrome, also known as autism spectrum disorder.) Newsweek opinion editor Batya Ungar-Sargon offered a similar explanation, adding: “We don’t need to invent outrage.”" source: Elon Musk Comments on Nazi-Like Salute Controversy | TIME

2. "Andrea Stroppa, a confidant of Musk who has connected him with far-right Italian PM Giorgia Meloni, was reported by Italian media to have posted the clip of Musk with the caption: "Roman Empire is back starting from Roman salute". ... Stroppa later deleted his post, Italian media said. He later posted that "that gesture, which some mistook for a Nazi salute, is simply Elon, who has autism, expressing his feelings by saying, 'I want to give my heart to you'"." source: Elon Musk responds to backlash over gesture at Donald Trump rally

3. "Democratic Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez blasted the ADL's reaction, saying on X: "Just to be clear, you are defending a Heil Hitler salute that was performed and repeated for emphasis and clarity." Another historian, Aaron Astor, also rebuffed accusations of Musk's Nazi emulation. "I have criticized Elon Musk many times for letting neo-Nazis pollute this platform," he wrote on X, adding: "But this gesture is not a Nazi salute." "This is a socially awkward autistic man's wave to the crowd where he says 'my heart goes out to you.'" In 2021, Musk announced he had been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism." source: Musk repeatedly makes gesture likened to 'Nazi salute' at Trump rally

4. "Holocaust deniers and openly self-identified Neo-Nazis were thrilled to see the tech mogul and DOGE Head DOGE-er appear to acknowledge them. Far-right political commentator Evan Kilgore tweeted a clip of the moment Monday, writing, “Holy crap...Did @elonmusk just Heil Hitler at the Trump Inauguration Rally in Washington D.C...This is incredible.” He added two fire emojis for good measure, and followed up in another tweet: “We are so back,” appending a—wait for it—saluting emoji. Oh. In his replies, Kilgore repeatedly insisted that “it’s a joke” and that “we all know that wasn’t his intention.” Do…we? Also on Monday, he tweeted, “Elon Musk is autistic. He was excited. We all know his intentions weren't to make a Sieg Heil. It looked much more like a Roman Salute. Can we all have a sense of humor for 5 seconds?” (Incidentally, Musk first opened up about his neurodivergence on Saturday Night Live in 2021.)" source: Elon Musk Sure Isn’t Denying That His Inaugural Gesture Was a Nazi Salute | Vanity Fair NME Frigate (talk) 00:09, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Sources

Bloomingbit (2025-01-20). "Donald Trump Issues Executive Order to Establish Department of Government Efficiency". Bloomingbit. Retrieved 2025-01-21.
"Ramaswamy forced out of DOGE by Musk after calling US workers 'mediocre,' report says". The Independent. 2025-01-21. Retrieved 2025-01-21.
"Establishing And Implementing The President's "Department Of Government Efficiency"". The White House, United States Government. 2025-01-21. Retrieved 2025-01-21.
Schleifer, Theodore; Ngo, Madeleine (2025-01-20). "Ramaswamy Will Bow Out of Cost-Cutting Project and Run for Governor in Ohio". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2025-01-21.
Bravender, Robin (2025-01-21). "Trump makes DOGE, energy emergency official". E&E News by POLITICO. Retrieved 2025-01-21.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/20/us/politics/elon-musk-hand-gesture-speech.html
Dickinson, Tim (20 January 2025). "Right-Wing Extremists Are Abuzz Over Musk's Straight-Arm Salute". Rolling Stone.

His Nazi salute needs to be covered together with his broader involvement in far-right politics and his promotion of the far right more broadly. --Tataral (talk) 12:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree. If this was a one-off without all of the other accusations of far-right/Nazi sympathy/support, it could be written off as "throwing hearts at the crowd" more easily. We can't say definitively that it was meant as a Nazi salute, as we can't read his mind, but the WP:WEIGHT is pretty hefty on this. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The video was edited by people in Europe to make it look like that when it wasn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.146.30.38 (talk) 19:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

section break

I re-inserted text about the salute, trying to keep the wording as neutral as possible. BLP doesn't really apply here as there are dozens (if not hundreds, at this point) of reliable sources discussing it. There's a lot of discussion here about personal interpretations but I'm trying to reflect the sources. These are some sources that might have useful context (quotes from historians, reactions from relevant parties like politicians and ADL, far right reactions, etc):

Hopefully we can use this as a starting point. Citing (talk) 15:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

BLP absolutely applies here as Musk is obviously alive and the claim is potential slander/libel. Just because a couple of media repeat the claim doesn't make it less so. That the most prominent organisation opposing anti-semitism points out that this wasn't a Nazi salute - and it wasn't - should be indicative. That some however seem to think that "Nazi salute" and "salute" are synonyms is telling. Str1977 15:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

As if the fact that le monde has now canceled Twitter, as have the Spanish government, this is at least as important as he gobbing of creating reactions. Slatersteven (talk) 16:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

ADL isn't the authority in anti-semitism or nazis. For Instance 'most prominent organisation opposing anti-semitism' doesn't seem to know the difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Anybody with an eye can watch the video and understand what it is. Watch the video of his salutes - both of them if you haven't yet and please stop engaging in bad faith - It's not just a couple of media sources - that's blatantly false. Squeezdakat (talk) 16:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

And the "difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism" - a distinction largely without difference - is relevant to a supposed Nazi salute how? (The Nazis were antisemites, not antizionists.) I have seen the video multiple times. Heck, I've even seen it live. And while the first instance by itself is a bit iffy, the second and what he said after that make the matter clear ... to anybody who does not look for such things. Str1977 18:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

To claim that "anti-semitism vs anti-zionism" is a "distinction without difference" is exactly the same as claiming "opposing the chinese government is the same as being racist against chinese people". It is asinine, and highlights why the ADL cannot be treated as the definitive source on what does or does not constitute anti-semitism. There is a reason many outspoken jews are anti-zionist, and it's not because they're "self-hating". plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 23:29, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It's relevant because Musk is a zionist. This is a case of ADL resorting to obfuscating the narrative around a blatently obvious anti-semitic Nazi salute In defence of a zionist. Several people have called it out as such. Al Jazeera AOC

Also, the difference between anti-semitism - hatred of an ethnicity and anti-zionism - opposition to a colonial ethnic cleansing and settlement project is clear unless you want to willfully defend the latter using the former. (edit - grammar)Squeezdakat (talk) 03:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

BLP applies, but does not prevent us from including what the sources say about the salutes. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, so we can't say he did give a Nazi salute, only that he has been widely accused of having done so. Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Right. That is BLP compliant, backed up by pretty much every single source, except the ADL. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No we can't say he's been accused of making a Nazi salute, because he wasn't making one. Ergzay (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

That makes no sense. He could have lost both arms and his head and it would still be true that "he's been accused of making a Nazi salute". That he also did it and we saw him do it also makes the allegations quite true. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Again it wasn't a Nazi salute or a salute of any kind. The angles were wrong and the associated dialogue in context shows he was thanking the crowd. Ergzay (talk) 18:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Turn your logic on. He could have scratched his butt with his big toe, and it would still be true that "he's been accused of making a Nazi salute". We document what RS say, not what we believe he did. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

To clarify, I meant that removing this content under BLP doesn't make sense given the widespread coverage in independent reliable sources. Obviously Musk is still covered in general under BLP. Citing (talk) 16:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I completely agree. It's clearly slander/libel. And I'll quote Elon Musk himself referring to this page in relation to this exact situation. https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1881752812276891674 "Since legacy media propaganda is considered a “valid” source by Misplaced Pages, it naturally simply becomes an extension of legacy media propaganda!" Ergzay (talk) 17:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

So what, we go by what RS say, not Musky. Slatersteven (talk) 17:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

@Ergzay: I'd ask that you reinstate my edit as this is the second time you've blanked someone else's text on this topic and (as I've demonstrated) the topic has significant independent coverage from major reliable sources. That content is under discussion does not mean it should not be present at all. Citing (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I will not, and any attempts to add it will be reverted as it's full of misinformation. Ergzay (talk) 17:46, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

What about In his speech during the second Trump inauguration, Musk twice extended his right arm towards the crowd in an upward angle. The gesture was compared to a Nazi salute or fascist salute. Musk denied any meaning behind the gesture. is "misinformation"? Continue to revert its addition and you'll end up reported to WP:ANEW. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

That's more acceptable as it includes his denial. I would also include ADL. Ergzay (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

This is literally the exact text you're deleting! – Muboshgu (talk) 17:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

My apologies... The text I thought I was reverting was the original version that was on the page. I've added the ADL statement. Ergzay (talk) 17:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't believe the ADL statement is due for inclusion. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:04, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

ADL is the foremost center for in the US for determining anti-Jewish sentiment. We use ADL elsewhere in the article. Ergzay (talk) 18:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that ADL is a yellow source when it comes to antisemitism. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a misread. It's a yellow source with regards to antisemitism when Israel/Palestine are involved. "There is consensus that outside of the topic of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, the ADL is a generally reliable source, including for topics related to hate groups and extremism in the U.S." Ergzay (talk) 18:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I think you made a a mistype, as it's WP:MREL for anti-semitism when Israel and Zionism are not involved per WP:ADLAS, as you quoted. Anything to do with IPA and it's WP:GUNREL. It otherwise seems due for inclusion with necessary attribution. CNC (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Ah okay missed that, in that case as long as we name ADL when sourcing them it seems fine. ADL was citied in a bunch of other sources, including the NYT source so it should be fine to keep. Ergzay (talk) 18:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Per WP:ADLAS, the ADL is a yellow source with antisemitism, excluding Israel and Palestine, and can roughly be taken as reliable. It mentioned it is a case-by-case basis. I feel like it could be phrased somewhere in the article as "the ADL disputes this notion". The green wording for ADL could definitely be clearer though. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Am I going to be the first one to link to WP:EXCEPTIONAL in this discussion? It's possible that the richest man in the world is a secret nazi based on orthopedic choices but I think we need more than this. SmolBrane (talk) 19:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No one is suggesting for the article to say that Elon is a "secret Nazi". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I was being a bit whimsical, apologies. The sourcing is inadequate to extrapolate so much charged intent from a brief clip with no talking. Nazi or nazi adjacent is exceptional. SmolBrane (talk) 20:03, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Obviously this belongs in the article, as it has been widely covered in detail by reliable sources all around the world. We should not say Musk performed a nazi salute as that call is not for us to make. What is a fact, though, is that his raised arm has become a noticeable incident, with many sources comparing it to a nazi salute (and others don't). We are here to report on notable events, not making our personal guesses on what he meant or didn't mean. Jeppiz (talk) 21:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit war warriors

Could all edit warriors please stop edit warring now, this is getting ridiculous. @RodRabelo7, @Zyxrq, @Ergzay, @EF5, @Muboshgu.

I'm aware some of you, the worst offenders, have been warned on your talk page, and others have only engaged in one or two reverts or removal or content (as part of this war), but you all need to stop now. Contributing to a multi-party edit war is still edit warring, regardless of whether you revert once or reach your WP:3RR max, and you are disrupting the article and the discussion above for everyone else. CNC (talk) 18:32, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

What? I don't believe I was engaging in a edit war I was just replacing a source with one that was actually reliable. I only reverted one thing. Zyxrq (talk) 18:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

But yes it does seem like an edit war was possibly starting, thank you for trying to avoid one. Zyxrq (talk) 18:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC) comment edited Zyxrq (talk) 18:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't engage in any edit wars and, in fact, didn't even know one was happening until I saw this page once again on my Watchlist. My first edit here was done while I was reading the article trying to find a mention to the Nazi salute by Musk. Sorry for the misclick though. Thanks, RodRabelo7 (talk) 18:37, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

CNC, I'm not an "edit war warrior"; not everyone who reverts the addition of X as a source likes to edit war. I've made two reverts, neither of which were related. E_F 18:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

@EF5 You deleted my comment from this talk page. Please restore it. Ergzay (talk) 18:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Restored it myself manually... Ergzay (talk) 18:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, there was an edit conflict. Nothing malicious. :) E_F 19:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

@CommunityNotesContributor Stop throwing accusations around. My most recent edit was not "edit warring". I was restoring @Zyxrq's correct edit replacing a source with a better source. I reverted @RodRabelo7's "WP:IDONTLIKEIT" edit because he has personal issues with the ADL apparently. Ergzay (talk) 18:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I have personal issues with ADL? What?! Why? RodRabelo7 (talk) 18:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

@RodRabelo7 You said it in your own edit. I'll quote your own edit "LMAO, this is as trustworthy as Fox News" Ergzay (talk) 19:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

With respect I think he was referring to the fact the source was linking to a (X) Tweet, which is why I replaced the source with the one from politico. Though after I replaced it he did say "cannot see the pertinence of this" when reverting my edit. Zyxrq (talk) 19:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The source was still ADL. It doesn't matter if its hosted on X, but yes moving to a secondary instead of a primary source is better. If his issue was X then his comment doesn't really make sense as its the official press account of said organization. Ergzay (talk) 19:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

fair enough. Zyxrq (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Not going to waste my time with you, only to clarify that I posted this 1 minute after the revert you are describing, thus is unrelated. You are referenced here for the six reverts you made on this page within 24 hours. CNC (talk) 19:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Six reverts that are largely disconnected from each other... But sure let's handle this through normal processes. You weren't even involved in the editing. Ergzay (talk) 19:23, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I have not edited the article a single time, and have sent only three(I think) messages on here. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 18:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

References

Samuels, Ben (2025-01-20). "Elon Musk Appears to Make Fascist Salute at Trump Inauguration Rally". Haaretz.com. Retrieved 2025-01-21.
Wright, George (2025-01-21). "Elon Musk responds to backlash over gesture at Donald Trump rally". BBC Home. Retrieved 2025-01-21.
"Musk accused of giving Nazi salute during Trump inauguration celebrations". Al Jazeera. 2025-01-21. Retrieved 2025-01-21.

RfC: Should the page describe Musk as a supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes?

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Should the page describe Musk as a supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes? BootsED (talk) 01:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposed Sources

Clayton, Freddie (December 22, 2024). "Elon Musk courts Europe's surging far right". NBC News. Archived from the original on January 19, 2025. Retrieved January 20, 2025. Musk has thrown his support behind far-right politicians in the U.K., Italy and Germany, where the leader of the AfD party has evoked Nazi rhetoric. ... What began as a tech mogul railing against political correctness in the U.S. has evolved into what appears to be a global campaign of support for far-right ideologies, forcing governments on both sides of the Atlantic to reckon with Musk's growing political and cultural influence.
Mac, Ryan; Bensinger, Ken (January 8, 2025). "As Elon Musk Embraces Far Right, Some of Its Top Figures Reject Him". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on January 8, 2025. Retrieved January 20, 2025. Mr. Musk's falling-out with some on the far right stands out as he increasingly embraces more extreme parties and figures globally, including in Germany, where he has backed a political party with ties to neo-Nazis and plans to host a livestream with one of its leaders on Thursday.
Lawless, Jill (January 7, 2025). "Elon Musk helped Trump win. Now he's looking at Europe, and many politicians are alarmed". The Associated Press. Archived from the original on January 8, 2025. Retrieved January 20, 2025. The Tesla and SpaceX chief executive has endorsed the far-right Alternative for Germany, demanded the release of jailed U.K. anti-Islam extremist Tommy Robinson and called British Prime Minister Keir Starmer an evil tyrant who should be in prison. Many European politicians have been left concerned by the attention. Musk's feed on his social network X is dotted with abusive language — labeling politicians "stupid cretin" and "sniveling cowards" — as well as retweets of far-right and anti-immigrant accounts.
Siddiqui, Faiz; Merrill, Jeremy B. (August 11, 2024). "Elon Musk's X feed becomes megaphone for his far-right politics". The Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Archived from the original on November 24, 2024. Retrieved January 20, 2025.
Darcy, Oliver (March 19, 2024). "Radicalized by the right: Elon Musk puts his conspiratorial thinking on display for the world to see". CNN. Archived from the original on December 9, 2024. Retrieved January 20, 2025. At this juncture, calling Musk a right-wing shitposter is no longer provocative. It's simply accurate. ... Musk appears to be growing more intolerant of other viewpoints. While elevating right-wing extremists, he simultaneously seeks to destroy trust in credible news sources.

Polling

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Support

Support This appears to be contentious on this page, and there are constant edit wars over it and disagreements on talk. I believe there are ample reliable sources that describe Musk as a supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes as presented in the proposed sources section above. Note, that we are not saying Musk is far-right, but that he is a supporter of the far-right, which is what reliable sources describe him as. BootsED (talk) 01:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the average reader would consider that the statements "supports the far-right" and "member of the far-right" to have different meanings. Most think of those two as identical meanings. Ergzay (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
You are so close to figuring things out. Just keep rubbing the sticks together. 155.186.205.191 (talk) 13:12, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Support - per RSs. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 15:43, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support This statement is backed by numerous reliable sources. I agree with the above reasoning. Marincyclist (talk) 03:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support - Misplaced Pages, as a matter of policy, repeats what reliable sources say. Reliable sources say this. Thus we should too. Fieari (talk) 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong Support: As per reliable sources EarthDude (talk) 09:27, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong Support: If not even a recorded Nazi salute can convince some that he endorses these types of regimes, I'm genuinely not sure what else he needs to do to change their minds.

Being afraid to use labels that are not well-received by some in society is not being neutral, but rather the opposite, because you are artificially trying to make everyone look "normal" by hiding what your prejudice deems to be "bad." Yoitai (talk) 10:35, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Support, one only has to look at the situation in which he changed Twitter's policies on doxing, almost overnight, in order to provide cover for the neo-Nazi StoneToss (read the article for more details and sources) when he could not have given a flying fuck about doxing on his platform previously. That aside, per the reliable sources given above. TarnishedPath 10:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support. Yes, that is a wholly uncontroversial description, very well supported by reliable sources. --Tataral (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support - Following RS is what we do. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:45, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong Support We go by what reliable sources say, not what editors think about those sources. Carlstak (talk) 12:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support WP:WEIGHT is met for including this in the body for sure. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:25, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Soft support per the sources available. Might be worth waiting for academic sources. Surprised we need an RfC on this? Kowal2701 (talk) 17:21, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong Support: There are more than enough reliable sources suggesting this with verifiable proof of this pattern. There appear to be no reliable sources denying this is happening or contradicting the proposed wording. The opposing argument that "far-right" is a slur lacks any basis, as it is used extensively by reliable sources and there are a number of high-quality Wiki articles dealing with this topic. CrazyPredictor (talk) 18:22, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support as per sources already in the article --RodRabelo7 (talk) 18:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support We can't say he's a Nazi (yet), so this will have to do (for the time being). Serial (speculates here) 19:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support Per sources. - SchroCat (talk) 19:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong Support This is a man who openly supports and advocates for neo-nazis in Germany and the UK, performs the nazi salute on stage, is criticised by numerous world leaders in democratic countries for his far-right propaganda, and is described as far-right by a long list of recent and reliable sources. Should be one of the most obvious RfCs ever on WP. Jeppiz (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong Support Musk has been extremely vocal in his support of far-right parties and policies abroad. His support hasn't been ambiguous, indirect, or isolated. I'm inclined to believe that someone is a supporter of something when they have a long history of saying that they support that thing, and their statements have been verified and interpreted similarly by multiple third parties. RFZYNSPY 20:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support Even if Elon Musk didn't make a Nazi salute, there are more than enough proof from reliable sources of him supporting the far-right. Prime6421 (talk) 21:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong support Reliable sources clearly state this, with little to no reputable rejection of this description. --Pinchme123 (talk) 21:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Support. We document what RS say. It's that simple. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:51, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong support per other !votes, I also don't see this as controversial, though I understand the need for such an RfC given this is a contentious topic on a highly notable figure. Reliable sources clearly document Musk as a supporter of the far-right in the article body already, in a variety of ways, so an inclusion is merely WP:DUE at this point per WP:BALANCE, in order to avoid a WP:FALSEBALANCE. I also don't see this description as WP:WEASEL words, nor as a slur like MOS:RACIST, it's merely an accurate description of the end of the political spectrum that Musk supports. While being far-right can be seen as negative, similar to far-left, there is nothing inherently WP:CONTENTIOUS about these labels, even if often associated with a negative connotation. Overall, for balance we go with what a diversity of sources say. CNC (talk) 22:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong support simply because it is objectively and verifiably true. Musk consistently supports political figures who our own Wiki, as well as most verifiable news sources, describe as either right-wing or far-right. There are dozens of available examples where reputable sources document Musk supporting international right-wing/far-right figures and causes:

a right-wing opposition leader in in Canada,

a right-wing Prime Minister in New Zealand

a right-wing to far right Prime Minister in Hungary,

a right-wing to far-right head of state in Argentina,

an imprisoned alt-right figure in the UK,

a far-right leader the Netherlands,

a far-right party in Germany,

a far-right activist movement in Ireland,

a far-right former President Brazil,

a far-right Prime Minister |in Italy,

far-right "anti-white genocide" activists in South Africa,

Respectfully, the available sources are clear and overwhelming. The discussion closer who assesses for consensus should keep the above evidence in mind. FlipFlopped ツ 23:09, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose - Absolutely not! Far-right and far-left are in the eye of the beholder. Heck in the Bay Area Bernie Sanders is middle of the road. Plus a lot of the contention is whether it should be in the lead, not just anywhere. It could say that "Elon Musk has often been a supporter of conservative political parties and ideals." That's a more neutral and understood sentence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:50, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
@Fyunck(click) i like the attempt at neutrality here but the views of elon musk wiki page says he support obama, Clinton and biden. so a time aspect or acknowledgement of past democrat support would be needed to be neutral. DecFinney (talk) 20:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Fair enough. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose - The only party he's supported that Misplaced Pages itself describes as "far-right" has been the AfD. Reform UK is only listed as "right-wing populism". Fdl of Italy is also described as "right-wing". I think a single data point does not make a trend line. Ergzay (talk) 06:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Musk supports Tommy Robinson who is a far-right figure in the UK. Marincyclist (talk) 06:10, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
The statement that is being discussed is "supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes" Ergzay (talk) 06:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
The statement says "supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes". The way you only highlighted parties is extremely disingenuous EarthDude (talk) 09:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
He did not support Robinson's politics though but pushed for his release under the (mistaken) idea that TR was a political prisoner. Str1977 15:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Sigh... "Support" means you agree with the entire wording of the statement. There are clear issues with the statement given its clear he's not plurally in support of far-right political parties. Ergzay (talk) 09:39, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Wholly incorrect. Hungary's Fidesz, the Brazilian Liberal Party, Brothers of Italy, the Dutch Party for Freedom, and Argentina's La Libertad Avanza are all described by our own wiki as right-wing to far-right. Musk has supported all of them (either explicitly, or via support of the party leader, which is functionally the same thing). If you disagree that these are "far-right political parties", take it up on the talk page of the respective party and seek consensus to change that characterization instead of having a discussion page war on this one. FlipFlopped ツ 23:19, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose - WP:WEASEL using the term "far" right or "far" left are clearly used as a form of slur against someone's character. Much better to use the more neutral term "conservative parties" — Preceding unsigned comment added by JamieBrown2011 (talk • contribs) 07:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose - it is indeed a weasel-like slur. Str1977 15:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose I feel like the proposed sources above are claiming that far right is negative, and to some that may not be the case. The sources are also making assumptions about someone's character who supports far right policies, which is a very bias opinion and not a neutral fact. If it can be done in a more neutral way I think it is Misplaced Pages appropriate, otherwise just sharing his support of Trump and pursuit of politics in that sense will allow those reading to make their assumptions and not provide rhetoric one way or the other. bedazzledunicorn 20:42, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose reference to far-right but, to some extent, with less objection to a reference of "right wing". All the same a lot of support from the parties concerned are from the working class who simply oppose disproportionate levels of migration and of people who would like to protect their own indigenous cultures, Kirr Hardy who founded the UK Labour party had parallel views. Greg Kaye 01:51, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

Comment — I'm dissatisfied with the quantity of sources here; in order for me to support this, I would need a greater number of sources, preferably academic. The fifth source from Oliver Darcy is an analysis and effectively constitutes an opinion. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:15, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Academic sources don't just appear overnight. While they are always preferable, we should go with the very best sources at the time. TarnishedPath 10:56, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

While I see your point here, that's not the list of sources, that's just the proposed list of sources that would be used for such a description. There are plenty more both within the article and elsewhere. We don't require academic sources for a political description, when there is a diversity of sources and near-consensus by some of our best new-org RS. It would be helpful for someone to produce a table of sources that back up this statement, not that it's required for consensus either it seems. CNC (talk) 22:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Comment - Depends where it is placed. Throwing in the 1st lead paragraph would be undue --FMSky (talk) 18:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Agree. Put it in the Politics section if anything. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 19:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Comment We seem to be at 23-6 in support after 1 day. Does this qualify for snowball? BootsED (talk) 03:33, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
I wouldn't say so, but there is consensus. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 05:03, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 January 2025

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On January 20th, 2025 Elon Musk displayed the Nazi salute twice during the United States presidential inauguration telling the world he is a Nazi. 72.69.140.186 (talk) 04:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Not done for now: Being discussed further up the page at § Controversial Salute. ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email · global) 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Musk's role in DOGE

I’m confused about what Musk will lead and what his title will be. Will he head the entire "United States DOGE Service" (formerly the United States Digital Service) or just the "Department of Government Efficiency" (the "U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization", a temporary organization within the United States DOGE Service)?

And what will his title be?

The Executive Order establishing DOGE only mentions a "USDS Administrator."

The hiring freeze Executive Order mentions an "Administrator of the United States DOGE Service."

The merit Executive Order mentions an "Administrator of the Department of Government Efficiency."

Max1298 (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry

There is most likely no Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry. Elon Musk's paternal grandmother had Dutch ancestors (Dutch Free Burghers). Dutch relates to the Netherlands where the majority of white settlers in SA came from. Pennsylvania Dutch on the other hand relates to the German speaking religious group (Dutch here means Deutsch/German) who live mainly in Pennsylvannia and a few other places in the US and Canada. They came from Germany and Switzerland. 2A02:810B:1609:9800:A1DD:B1F9:C50E:1532 (talk) 13:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Both could be true, free Dutch through South Africa on the paternal side and Pennsylvania Dutch/Deutsch through America on the maternal side. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Number of children

The article in two instances gives the number of Elon Musk's children as either "12" (infobox) or as "at least 12". However, if one goes through the number of his relationships and the offspring stemming from each, I count three with Justine Wilson (one deceaed plus the twins), three with Grimes (though one by "surrogacy") and three Shivon Zilis.

Searching through the archive, I have found that the article used to say ""Musk met his first wife, Canadian author Justine Wilson, while attending Queen's University. They married in 2000 and separated in 2008. Their first child, son Nevada Alexander Musk, died of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) at the age of 10 weeks. They share custody of their five surviving children, all sons.". So they had an additional three children, which indeed brings the number up to twelve. But these children should be mentioned in the article as well. This used to be sourced information that should be restored, with the sources given (in the archive these are only numbers).

However, there is no justification to go beyond the 12 and speculate about "at least 12", if there is even as little as the claim that additional children exist. Note that both instances are sourced with a single article (https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2024-elon-musk-population-collapse-baby-push/), which expressly only mentions the children with Grimes and Shivon Zilis. That's too little to speculate about additional children. Str1977 15:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I just realised that I have not seen that the article speaks of twins and triplets. So the three additional children were included after all. Still, the arguments against speaking of "at least" stands. Hence I have removed these words. Str1977 15:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 January 2025 (2)

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Elon Musk uttered the words 'my heart goes out to you' after his 'supposed' Nazi salute. The article is clearly trying to mislead the reader. No serious news organisation is suggesting it was a Nazi salute. Only Wokepedia. Chrisyking (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No news source? Are you sure about that? drdr150 Yell at me Spy on me 19:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Rejected As the instructions above clearly say: This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".. Cullen328 (talk) 19:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
But he is right. It should absolutely have proper context and not be left hanging with conjectured bias. @Chrisyking: needs to write exactly what should be said and where it should be placed in the article. Only then can a request be granted. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

There are MANY news sources describing it as a NAZI salute. Please specify what changes you want to make. Sushidude21! (talk) 01:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Elon Musk Gif

File:Elon Musk salute.gif If we are going to have something like this I suggest it should be a video which includes audio saying the quote he made directly after making the Gesture ""My heart goes out to you. It is thanks to you that the future of civilization is assured,""] I think we should do this to give context and to allow the readers to come to their own conclusion. Zyxrq (talk) 21:40, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

To begin with, it's ridiculous this made it into Misplaced Pages. This is no longer an ecyclopaedia but a propaganda board. 31.205.2.78 (talk) 23:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I uploaded it as a gif to make the fair-use case stronger (non-free content should generally be short and low-quality). I think it's enough to have in the caption that he said "My heart goes out to you" after making the gesture. Since the video is copyrighted, we need to explain how any parts of it we use couldn't just be replaced by text. – MW_(t•c) 23:44, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

It is a muckraking smear to suggest that the socially awkward Musk was making a anti semitic salute. When I type "Musk visit to" into a search engine, the first auto complete option given is "... Israel". Please can Misplaced Pages editors not lose their minds. Musk describes himself as "aspirational;y Jewish. .." Let's research aeound issues and not fall for stilted media propaganda. Greg Kaye 23:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Please stick to making suggestions for the article and refrain from using this talk page for general discussion. – MW_(t•c) 00:08, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a fair enough argument. I added the caption "My heart goes out to you" after I made/started this discussion about the gif. I'm happy as it is now. I do have one more thing I would like to bring up on the talk page of the image itself. Thank you. Zyxrq (talk) 00:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm also happy with the caption as it stands. – MW_(t•c) 00:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The section "Accusations of antisemitism" is biased. A section on Musk's views in regard to Jewish people could be more balanced so as to present a variety of content. Greg Kaye 00:26, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Start a separate thread or fix it yourself then. – MW_(t•c) 00:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Zyxrq suggested above that the content should be replaced by "a video which includes audio". I say that it should just be removed.Comments by that anti-defamation league (whose very purpose is to combat anti-Semitism) have supported Musk and might otherwise be included. As also reported in media hey said:

This is a delicate moment. It’s a new day and yet so many are on edge. Our politics are inflamed, and social media only adds to the anxiety.
It seems that @elonmusk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute, but again, we appreciate that people are on edge. In this moment, all sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of the doubt, and take a breath. This is a new beginning. Let’s hope for healing and work toward unity in the months and years ahead.
There should be a way to present content with a Neutral point of view Greg Kaye 01:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

You should have made it more clear in your first comment that you specifically think the gif should be removed. Regardless, I pretty firmly disagree. Including the gif allows readers to make up their own mind as to whether or not Musk was doing a Nazi salute. If you believe it's only an "awkward gesture", then you should want it included so that readers can see for themselves. – MW_(t•c) 01:17, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Please do not tell me what I should want. A silent rendering of an event in a context that at no point mentioned jews, in regard to a figure who has widely supported jews, is biased. Anyone who was not simply out to smear Musk should want it removed, imo. Greg Kaye 01:29, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

We go by reliable sources. We do not make our own evaluations or do our own research. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

"Can someone direct me to the articles where expressed outrage over ?" Perhaps a question that I hope might be raised in reflection of balance. Greg Kaye 02:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

A good example of why X is not a reliable source. O3000, Ret. (talk) 02:26, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

There's a difference between still photos and video. Full videos of those Democrats making those gestures are on social media and are clearly not Nazi salutes. Libs of TikTok attempting WP:FALSEBALANCE. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:43, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

That's why we're including a gif and not a still image. Regardless of your personal opinion, the gesture was widely commented on and should therefore be included in the article. – MW_(t•c) 04:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Placement of reference to Musk.s inauguration gesture in a section such as on views on immigration

Musk clearly has strong and varied views. While many religions may be regarded as supremacist and arguably the monotheistic religions particularly so, as mentioned Musk has regularly made positive statements about Jews and Judaism. In contrast to this he seems to me to be relatively sceptical in regard to, for instance, Islam, Perhaps this may be evident in his X references to topics including those related to Tommy Robinson.

Perhaps there is a possibility that, despite Musk's many pro Jewish references, he is an antisemite, He has proven to have been dishonest certainly in the issue of gaming as referenced by the likes of Quin and Asmagold. However, it seems to me a stretch that he may be integrally anti Jewish while making all his pro Jewish references.

Looking at the event, Musk's topic at the time was civilisation. Among other of the topics that Musk supports are what seems to be a defence against an Orwellian type take over against free speech and an opposition to a communist / socialist related economic regression of a type perceived in locations such as Venezuela. However it is also possible to interpret that Musk is also opposed to what he might see as negative changes that might occur away from traditional forms of American culture.

While I still think it would be more encyclopaedic to present the event, if it needs to be presented, in video form, I also tbink it would be appropriate to present it in reference to a broader topic of culture or, as Musk referenced, civilisation. Greg Kaye 04:44, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, not truth. It doesn't matter whether or not Musk is an antisemite in his heart. What matters is how reliable sources and notable figures have described his words and actions. If you can find sources presenting this "in reference to a broader topic of culture or... civilisation" then please add them.

Regarding a potential video of the speech, Misplaced Pages has strict guidelines about using copyrighted content. The gist of it is that every piece of non-free content used must be completely necessary to provide an adequate overview of the subject being discussed, as well as serve a purpose that could not be served by text alone. This means that copyrighted videos should be uploaded without audio unless the audio is absolutely necessary to make a point. It would be difficult to argue that the audio of Musk's speech is necessary when his relevant comments can simply be transcribed. However, if you think you have a case, you can upload the video through Misplaced Pages:File upload wizard. – MW_(t•c) 05:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

1RR & ECP

In case anyone hasn't noticed, this article is now under WP:1RR and WP:ECP. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. QRep2020 (talk) 04:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

"Political figure"?

Why is he described as a "political figure" as opposed to a "politician"? A politician is a person who participates in policy-making processes, usually holding a position in government. MB 2437 01:54, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Should he be called a "powerful unelected federal bureaucrat?" soibangla (talk) 02:01, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

You'll have a task and a half ahead of you if that's your suggestion for all bureaucrat articles. MB 2437 02:05, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

To give you a serious answer, he does not hold "hold a position in government". The "DOGE" is not a real government department and so the administrator thereof is not a "politician". He is effectively an unelected, unappointed politically opinionated person with a high degree of influence over American politics, so "political figure" is the more accurate descriptor. FlipFlopped ツ 03:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Usually holding a position in government does not mean always. I'd argue "political figure" means the same thing, it's just weaseling around calling him a "politician". A high degree of influence over American politics sees him qualify, in my eyes, without considering his political activities and campaigns elsewhere. His notability as a politician is beyond question. MB 2437 03:24, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Ableism/Discrimination in Article

Did you all forget that Elon musk has autism? He has expressed this publicly. Sometimes atoms happen or actions/words come out in ways they (autistic people) don’t mean. Please do not mention this “nazi salute” in the article. Pointing this out is really just an insult to the autistic community, is ableist, and discriminatory. I guarantee that most people perceiving this as a “Nazi salute” aren’t even Jewish/are atheists looking to defame someone simply because they disagree with him and are upset that their candidate fairly, securely lost the election and wasn’t the one being inaugurated yesterday. “””Not to mention, using Nazism/Adolf Hitler as some silly political insult because YOU’RE mad that your political party/candidate lost and didn’t take control of the presidency and congress is disgusting and downplays the real horrific situation that occurred, a permanent stain and disgrace on world history, as well as the millions of lives lost.””” Shame on those in control of editing this article. Did you all forget that Elon musk has autism? He has expressed this publicly. Sometimes atoms happen or actions/words come out in ways they (autistic people) don’t mean. Please do not mention this “nazi salute” in the article. Pointing this out is really just an insult to the autistic community, is ableist, and discriminatory. I guarantee that most people perceiving this as a “Nazi salute” aren’t even Jewish/are atheists looking to defame someone simply because they disagree with him and are upset that their candidate fairly, securely lost the election and wasn’t the one being inaugurated yesterday. “””Not to mention, using Nazism/Adolf Hitler as some silly political insult because YOU’RE mad that your political party/candidate lost and didn’t take control of the presidency and congress is disgusting and downplays the real horrific situation that occurred, a permanent stain and disgrace on world history, as well as the millions of lives lost.””” Shame on those in control of editing this article. CavDan24 (talk) 03:26, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Fellow autist. I find it more ableist to act like autists are above criticism. Ilovededue (talk) 03:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@CavDan24 We go on what reliable sources say, not the opinion of one person. If you find one that states that the gesture was a result of his autism, thats a different story. GiftedWithThought (talk) 04:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

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