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Firearms Unassessed

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Have reverted move of this page to hunting firearm, as hunting weapon encompasses other weapons that are also used. Yaf 04:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

added copyedit tag, requesting a verification of the grammar of article title.

I added the copyedit tag because the usage of the noun 'weapon' in context of hunting appears to be nonstandard English. Per the Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition 1989: a 'weapon' implies combat or warfare. Therefore a firearm used in hunting is not a 'weapon'. No combat and not warfare is involved. A full text search of English language usage in the OED also finds no example of the term 'hunting weapon'. Yaf has replied that he can find examples of the usage in 'mainstream newspapers', but I believe that there are plenty examples of improper English usage to be found in mainstream newspapers, and such does not in itself make the usage to be standard English. The Oxford English Dictionary is the supreme authority on proper English usage, and this Encyclopedia should use standard English.

I attempted to fix the title, a few days ago, by moving the article to Hunting firearms but was reverted by Yaf without a coherent explanation. I will let the user Yaf explain his reasoning, but in short he pointed to the United States Federal Code Title 18, claiming that because one type of hunting firearm, the antique firearm, is defined by US law to be not a firearm for criminal law, that therefore US Law defines "antique firearms to be weapons". Then, because antique firearms are used sometimes for hunting, therefore the article must be titled Hunting weapon. Title 18 actually does not say that antique firearms are defined as 'weapons', and I am not aware of where Yaf actually gets his idea. SaltyBoatr 18:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The grammar of the article title is entirely standard English. The title has also been Hunting weapon since the creation of the article, until the attempt at POV pushing by SaltyBoatr regarding the "proper" definition of weapon to preclude any mention of hunting. A weapon can be used in combat or in war, clearly. A weapon can also be used for hunting, in which case it is a hunting weapon. Not all hunting weapons are firearms. To claim so is entirely non-factual, and it is clearly POV to assume that only modern firearms can or should be used for hunting. Primitive weapons, for example, are legal for use as hunting weapons, and are commonly used for legal hunting in many states in the United States, in provinces in Canada, and among many other countries. A list of primitive weapons and a section on primitive hunting weapons is also included in the article. Similarly, black powder weapons and antique firearms are legally distinct from firearms, and are often used for hunting during primitive weapon hunting seasons, also. Likewise, air rifles are commonly used in the UK and in the United States as hunting weapons, for the taking of rabbits and other small game, and are not firearms, either. To claim they are firearms is not logical. As for CFR Title 18, this regulation is not about criminal law at all; rather, it is about the legal definition of antique firearms. This definition is used by many states in defining weapons as being legally distinct from firearms. Antique firearms, generally black powder weapons other than inline rifles, are defined based on CFR Title 18 wording, and are not considered firearms at all unless used in a crime in most states. Otherwise, when used for hunting, antique firearms are always categorized as primitive weapons under state and federal laws. The list of primitive weapons discussed in the primitive hunting weapon section also contains articles where the identification of these items as weapons is also clearly stated in their respective articles, along with their use in hunting. I think it is clear that Hunting weapon is entirely proper English, and to claim otherwise is simply a manifestation of Anti-hunting sentiment on the part of SaltyBoatr. Yaf 19:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion appears entirely to be original research. Could you please restate your opinion, citing credible sources per WP:V? Also, would you please point to the exact clause in Title 18 that defines antique firearms as being weapons? All I see is that it says that 'antique firearms' are not firearms. antique is an adjective modifying a noun. The sentence: "Antique firearms are not firearms" is self contradictory because they are a type of firearm, the antique type. Perhaps the trouble is that we are trying to read the primary document and we misunderstand the context? That is why I guess that it means in the context of crime. Anyway, I am not anti-hunting by the way (I want to get a deer tag this year). And I have no idea why using English as described in the Oxford English Dictionary does anything what-so=ever to threaten you and hunting. Please explain. SaltyBoatr 20:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

No original research at all. In the EPA 2004-2005 Refuge-Specific Hunting and Sport Fishing Regulations , it is noted: “We prohibit possession of more than one hunting weapon while in the field.” Similarly, it is noted,

“ 13. Primitive weapons hunters (sambar deer and January white-tailed deer hunt), when outside the campsite area, must wear a minimum of 500 square inches (3,250 cm\2\) of a solid, unbroken pattern of fluorescent orange-colored material visible above the waistline. 14. We limit weapons to muzzleloaders or bow and arrow on the sambar deer hunt and the January white-tailed deer hunt. We limit the December hunt to bow and arrow. Weapons must meet all State regulations.”

This is only one sourced and cited example, but the terminology hunting weapon and the fact that weapons are used for hunting is in widespread common English usage, the OED notwithstanding. Likewise, muzzleloaders, which meet CFR Title 18 antique firearm requirements, are considered weapons. Unlike what your interpretation of the OED is (which, I might add, appears to be original research on your part), weapons are clearly used for hunting. This is not original research on my part, but is simply common English usage. This whole discussion is getting a little tiresome, and it is starting to appear you are trolling, but I will still assume WP:AGF for now. Hunting weapon makes perfect sense in English. Yaf 21:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

How do you figure that the United States Environmental Protection Agency is the place to look to check usage of standard English in a global encylopedia? I have pointed to the Oxford English Dictionary, which beyond all doubt is the authority on usage of the English language. And regardless, the EPA is writing only of dual use firearms, which are used both for hunting and as weapons in combat. Their wording is sloppy, but is describing the use of a combat weapon for hunting. How does this prove that the term 'hunting weapon' is proper English? SaltyBoatr 15:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

This shouldn't be such a big deal. The Encyclopedia should use standard English. Notice that the EPA wording says primitive weapons hunters, which is actually standard English usage to describe hunting with primitive weapons. While the term primitive hunting weapon is not standard English. Have you actually read these definitions in the Oxford English Dictionary? If not, could you please read it so we can discuss the definitions? Thanks. SaltyBoatr 15:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Notice that the EPA document] Yaf cited from is actually only a "proposed rule". Also, notice that Yaf did not answer my question about Title 18. SaltyBoatr 18:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The EPA document has nothing to do with combat; it is merely a set of proposed hunting regulations given as an example. Please stop your POV pushing that weapons are only used for combat and warfare due to your misreading of the OED. Weapons can be used for combat, during warfare, of course, but can also be used for hunting. Such usage is clearly standard English, widely published in Governmental regulations regarding hunting, at both the state and federal levels, in magazines, and in newspapers, all of which are verifiable. Just do a Google search, and you will see that "hunting weapon" is clearly standard English. I clearly don't understand why you are pushing a POV that weapons are never used for hunting because of something you have read in the OED. Weapons clearly are used for hunting, which incorporates firearms along with primitive hunting weapons. Also, I don't understand how you can claim that atlatls and other primitive hunting weapons that are ranged weapons are somehow supposed to be considered firearms; they clearly are not firearms. Neither are cross bows, or bows or spears or a whole host of other hunting weapons ever considered any kind of firearm. Please stop this silliness. Thank you. Yaf 18:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Proper usage of the English language is not silliness. I am literally reading the OED, not misreading. Your research on Google is no more than original research. Google does nothing to filter out grammar errors. Just because to your ear the term 'hunting weapon' sounds right does not make the term standard English. SaltyBoatr 20:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Your unverified claim that the term 'hunting weapon' is widely published in Government regulations also appears false. If it was true, a Google search would find it and this search: "hunting weapon" site:.gov returns a paltry 171 hits, a very low number. Exactly what one would expect to find with a 'grammar error' in a Google search. SaltyBoatr 20:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I have not claimed that weapons are never used for hunting. With dual use, as you pointed out with muskets, people can hunt with combat weapons. I am simply asserting that the term 'hunting weapon' is not proper English per the OED. SaltyBoatr 20:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, you have done just that: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weapon&diff=136133194&oldid=136131392 Yaf 20:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Look again, my complaint is that the term 'hunting weapon' is not standard English. Though I agree, that one may use a weapon to hunt. It is a subtle, but real, distinction. SaltyBoatr 21:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You basically said the same thing "firearms ... are not considered weapons when used for hunting." SaltyBoatr 21:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You are quoting me out of context. I was speaking there of the legal difference that black powder or antique firearms are considered legally to be weapons, and that they are legally treated distinctly different than modern firearms under firearms laws. On the other hand, modern firearms are treated as firearms under the law, and are treated differently than are items that fall strictly into the legal category of weapons. Both, however, i.e., antique firearms and modern firearms, are often used as weapons for hunting. And, as scot points out below, many firearms are distinctly not intended for use as weapons, or for hunting, but rather are intended for use as sporting tools solely for competition and punching precision holes in paper targets. It is pejorative and factually inaccurate to call these competitive shooting firearms weapons, to the shooting cognoscenti. Yaf 21:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

How is shooting a paper target different than shooting a rabbit? Both are sporting and neither involve 'combat'. SaltyBoatr 21:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The rabbit would certainly see a difference. Also, one of these acts for me results in a tasty meal, whereas I don't eat paper. On the other hand, during the Shot heard Round the World at the beginning of the Revolutionary War, nearly all of the weapons used by the soon-to-be Americans were hunting weapons that had been pushed into service among militia members as combat weapons. This article, however, is not about militia or militia weapons, or combat weapons, but is instead about hunting weapons being used for hunting. Lets stay on topic. Yaf 04:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that clubs and bows are not firearms, so perhaps the best 'standard English' title should be Hunting tools or Hunting implements. Further, unless the WP:V and WP:NOR problems are cleared up shortly I would favor a move to AFD this article. SaltyBoatr 20:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to concur with Yaf; a "weapon" in common usage is a tool designed to injure or kill any living thing. The EOD is not the only dictionary out there, and it is not an authoritative source--they don't make the words, they describe the usage. Looking at Dictionary.reference.com, which is handy because it groups together a number of different sources, I see the following definitions:

• 2. anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim: the deadly weapon of satire. (Random House unabridged, 2006)
• 3. Zoology. any part or organ serving for attack or defense, as claws, horns, teeth, or stings. (Random House unabridged, 2006)
• 3. A means used to defend against or defeat another: Logic was her weapon. (American Heritage, 2006)
• 1. any instrument or instrumentality used in fighting or hunting; "he was licensed to carry a weapon" (WordNet, Princeton, 2006
• any instrument or means which is used for one's own defence or for attacking others (Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version), 2006)

While other definitions do deal with combat or warfare, it is by no means exclusive to that field. The reason many shooters object to the term "weapon" used for a firearm is the fact that the average Hammerelli free pistol, for example, is NOT intended to be weapon, as it is intended only to very accurately punch holes in paper at 50 meters distance. It can be used as a weapon, but then ANYTHING can be used as a weapon, and by the definitions above, anything used to inflict damage while hunting is a weapon. scot 20:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Your examples 1,2,3 and 5 do not conflict with the OED defintion. Your fourth example, WordNet, is a lexical database, not a dictionary and therefore is not useful to answer the question of standard usage. Your discussion about the Hammerelli pistol appears to be original research. SaltyBoatr 20:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

From Dictionary:

The dictionary is a list of words with their definitions, a list of characters with their glyphs, or a list of words with corresponding words in other languages. In a few languages, words can appear in many different forms, but only the lemma form appears as the main word or headword in most dictionaries. Many dictionaries also provide pronunciation information; grammatical information; word derivations, histories, or etymologies; illustrations; usage guidance; and examples in phrases or sentences. Dictionaries are most commonly found in the form of a book, but more and more dictionaries are produced as a software runs from electronic PDA or a general purpose computer. Most dictionaries are produced by lexicographers.

From Lexicography: The pursuit of lexicography is divided into two related disciplines:

* Practical lexicography is the art or craft of compiling, writing and editing dictionaries.

* Theoretical lexicography is the scholarly discipline of analyzing and describing the semantic relationships within the lexicon (vocabulary) of a language and developing theories of dictionary components and structures linking the data in dictionaries. This is sometimes referred to as metalexicography.

I fail to see the difference between a "lexical database" and a "database compiled by a lexicographer" and a "dictionary". They all are collections of words and definitions; if you argue that one is descriptive while the other is definitive (which is POV), then you should use the descriptive sources, as they are secondary (and thus preferred), while the definitive source is primary. (As an aside, while I reject the OED as an authoritative source (it didn't create the language) I do think Misplaced Pages needs to deal better with the issue of authoritative sources.)

Even if you toss out the WordNet definition, then it's still the case by the remaining definitions any tool used to injure or kill an animal while hunting is a weapon. As for the example of the free pistol, yes, that is a personal observation, but it goes along with the given definitions of "weapon"--a weapon is defined by use ("used", "serving", "used", "used", "used"), not by characteristics. scot 21:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

None of the other dictionaries conflict with the OED, and the OED carries a great deal of authority. Per the OED, I see that a gun used to kill a bear that is attacking you is a weapon. The same gun used to kill a bear for sport is not a weapon. SaltyBoatr 21:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

So killing a bear for sport is not attacking it? It is not an adversary or victim in that scenario? I'm sure the bear would disagree with you. Just grabbing the first definitions from dictionary.reference.com, I see "attack" as "to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with"; certainly shooting a bear qualifies. scot 21:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Swap the words 'rabbit' for 'bear' and I see your logic fall apart. A hunter never fights with a rabbit. Also, the OED carries a great deal of authority, and chooses to use the words 'warfare' and 'combat', both involving reciprocity. For example, a gun used by an executioner to effect capital punishment would be not be considered a weapon per the OED definition. Neither a gun used for target shooting. SaltyBoatr 21:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Worse, see above, the OED definition of 'hunting' is actually describing the chase, not the killing. Per the OED, one could go hunting with a camera. SaltyBoatr 21:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, top definition from dictionary.reference.com for "hunt" is "to chase or search for (game or other wild animals) for the purpose of catching or killing", and for "hunter" "a person who hunts game or other wild animals for food or in sport" (eating something tends to have lethal consequences for the meal). For a camera, the better word is "safari", which is "a journey or expedition, for hunting, exploration, or investigation, esp. in eastern Africa", and most commonly found in the form of a "photo safari" these days. While you won't find that term in a dictionary, I'm sure far more people go to Africa with a camera than an Express rifle these days, and it's certainly a common term in the travel industry. scot 22:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I miss your point. The key issue with hunting is the chase. Per the OED, a person goes hunting with a butterfly net. SaltyBoatr 22:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Per the OED, a weapon implies combat or warfare, in other words: aggressive reciprocity. Therefore, the title of the article Hunting weapon is poor English because hunting is a non-aggressive and non-reciprocal sport. SaltyBoatr 22:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a person can go hunting with a butterfly net (in the sense of "to catch"), and whether or not the net is a weapon depends on how it's used. If it is used to capture the butterfly unharmed, then it is not a weapon, but if it is used to kill the butterfly, then it is.

And where are you getting reciprocity in this? Is the Glock Cho used not a weapon, because his victims were not fighting back? Was he not aggressive? None of "used against", "attack", "defeat" or "victim" imply any reciprocity. scot 22:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Warfare and combat, from the OED require reciprocity. SaltyBoatr 00:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

If by this you mean that both sides must use weapons, this is patently silly and wrong. Requiring reciprocity of weapons has little to nothing to do with defining the state of war and the presence of combat. There are many historical cases that exist for showing unbalanced warfare and combat do historically exist with arms prevalent on only one side. Okinawa was subjugated by the Japanese Samarai, and the Okinawans were forbidden to have any arms. Even the knife for the village was kept chained in the center of the village for use in butchering animals, so that it could not be used as a weapon. Instead of relying on overt weapons, empty hand combat techniques (kara te, or in English, karate) was developed to counter the Japanese Samarai, kara being the root symbol meaning either empty or Chinese, depending on which kara symbol was used, te being the root word or symbol meaning hand. The OED clearly doesn't go into this either, yet warfare and combat without reciprocity of arms did occur historically, and examples exist even today. Warfare and combat require no reciprocity in terms of weapons, the OED notwithstanding. Yaf 20:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Have you actually read the OED definition? If not, could you read it please so we can discuss their etymology? I don't agree with you original logic, presented above. Can we just rely upon a credible authority, like the OED? Thanks. SaltyBoatr 21:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your recognition that for a butterfly net, 'how it is used' is what makes the net a weapon or not. Similar is true for guns. Hunting is either sport or subsistence. Yet a use for sport or subsistence do not make the gun a weapon, per the OED. Therefore, the 'hunting weapon' is poor English and the article should be renamed. SaltyBoatr 00:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the same significance to the 'killing' aspect as you do. If you were right, the gun used in an execution would be a weapon, and obviously it is not. SaltyBoatr

One of the definitions from Websters for weapon is, "anything used, or designed to be used, in destroying, defeating, or injuring an enemy." Wordnet says, "any instrument or instrumentality used in fighting or hunting." Dictionary.com says, " anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim."--LWF 22:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

WordNet is not a dictionary so it brings very little authority to this question. Yet the OED holds a great authority. The OED says that 'weapon' involves combat or warfare, which matches closely the object of the Webster's definition which is 'an enemy'. You try to distort the Dictionary.com definition by truncating it, actually it says "2. - anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim: the deadly weapon of satire." In light your distortion I see I cannot assume good faith from you. SaltyBoatr 00:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

What distortion? That was just an example of it in that usage and I deemed it not integral to the definition. Although I notice you make no comment on the definition itself. A rabbit can be considered a victim if one of the listed objects is used against it. That object is then a weapon. The New American Webster Handy College Dictionary Third Edition says, "any instrument used in fighting." It defines fight as, "1, engage in combat. 2,strive; contend." In legal terms (I work in a law office, I have seen the documents) if someone uses an object to attack, injure, or even threaten, then the object has become a weapon.--LWF 02:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

section break

It has been shown, with attribution to the WordNet lexical database, that the term 'Hunting weapon' exists in the English language. And obviously, this term has widespread usage among the United States gun culture, though generally not in the rest of the English speaking world.

"Gun culture"? What the hell is "gun cutlure", other than some perjorative political term created to imply that anyone who desires to own a firearm also supports gang warfare, mass murders and drive by shootings? If you're trying to argue that "hunting weapon" is jargon, then perhaps it it, but then gun jargon should be acceptable to provide minimum ambiguity in a technical article on guns. The term "hunting weapon" can also be found on the Brady Campaign's website (as in "we don't want to take your hunting weapons") and I found the term mentioned on Germany's US consulate website. scot 23:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

It also has been shown, with attribution to the Oxford English Dictionary, that 'Hunting weapon' is not standard English. Consider that this encyclopedia is a global encyclopedia, not a gun culture encyclopedia; a question then remains:

Should Misplaced Pages use non-standard 'gun culture' English for the title of this article, when reasonable standard English options exist?

I think the answer is no. And, at the least, I have not heard reasoned arguments why the encyclopedia should use non-standard English. SaltyBoatr 14:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Has it occured to anyone that the definitions provided from all these sources are not mutually exclusive? That perhaps multiple dictionaries will provide multiple correct meanings of a different word?--LWF 15:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if they are MORE CORRECT! scot 23:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I have already noted this fact multiple times; the dictionaries which have been cited do not conflict which each other. Yet, the Oxford definition conflicts with the gun culture usage of the term 'Hunting weapon'. Not to say that the gun culture usage is not widespread, but just to say, per the OED, that the gun culture is not using standard English.

Regardless, could you answer the question: Should Misplaced Pages use non-standard 'gun culture' English for the title of this article, when reasonable standard English options exist? SaltyBoatr 16:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Hunting regulations printed by state and federal bodies hardly constitute an ergot of gun culture language. Instead, their chosen vocabulary reflects a technical vocabulary that is entirely standard English, but which is perhaps not reflected in the OED, it being primarily devoted to describing non-technical words. This would be much the same as attempting to write an engineering article, and instead of using language common to engineering usage, insisting on using liberal arts English that is entirely inappropriate for an engineering article. Likewise, I don't think you would get very far by insisting that "very itchy red bumps" should always be used on Misplaced Pages in place of using proper medical terminology of pruitis or chicken pox or shingles in every medical article on Misplaced Pages dealing with one of these conditions. To a lay person, the different conditions may all look like "itchy red bumps", yet to a medical doctor, these 3 conditions are noticeably different. This article is no different. Lets use the English that is common and appropriate for the discussions of each article, instead of forcing the language into clearly non-standard English usages that is not common or appropriate for a topic through insisting on using OED definitions instead of relying on appropriate versions of English for articles. Clearly, we should write articles for Misplaced Pages using the language appropriate for the article, instead of a pidgin-English built from using inappropriate vocabulary based solely on the OED, and we should promote the use of the English language vocabulary that will appear appropriate to educated lay people as well as to experts in any given field. Yaf 03:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Would the legal definition do? I'm certain I can find it soon.--LWF 04:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

All Yaf has yet identified is one EPA proposed regulation. In any case, I am not surprised that these regulations would be drafted with 'gun culture' wording. It is safe to guess that the agencies are staffed by members of the gun culture, and certainly they need to communicate with members of the gun culture, so writing in the vernacular of the gun culture is appropriate for them, but not for us.

The 'big picture' question is whether this is a global encyclopedia. LWF asks "Would the legal definition do?", with a POV bias revealed by the unsaid assumption that the jurisdiction is the United States. Certainly, the wording of laws of one country should not have an undue weight in a global encyclopedia. The subtext of Yaf's argument, that the OED forces "a pidgin-English"; is that this article is a gun culture article. Therefore, Yaf argues it should use natural gun culture language. I strongly disagree, this should be a global article.

Misplaced Pages is a global encyclopedia, and the articles should be written in a globally neutral language, even these special interest articles. Would the title Hunting equipment, or something similar be all that horrible? Would sourcing the article with neutral reliable sources hurt? The benefit could be an improvement to the credibility of the encyclopedia, because when people who do not belong to the gun culture read this article and see it unsourced and written with a gun culture bias, our credibility suffers. SaltyBoatr 18:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Hunting tools or equipment has a different connotation than weapon. A weapon quite clearly has the connotation of an attack, even if no retaliation or combat is involved. In fact, a firearms can be used to attack and kill a person, and even though no true combat has occured, it is still being used as a weapon. That is the law in any country. Likewise, using most any object to attack a person, even if they do not retaliate or engage in combat will be defined as assault with a weapon. Also, it has been admitted that there may be more than one correct definition of weapon; isn't it possible that some of the ones such as those that say "anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim: the deadly weapon of satire. (Random House unabridged, 2006)" might also be correct, and that this definition is Standard English as well? Per this definition, using Weapon in the term "Hunting Weapon" is correct English, and not at all uncredible.--LWF 19:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Your definition of 'Hunting weapon' is the gun culture definition, which is at odds with the global standard usage. You are essentially claiming that the Oxford English Dictionary is wrong. Indeed the OED is wrong, but only from your perspective (that of the gun culture). What you need to argue, and have failed so far to argue, is why or whether the encyclopedia should be written from the perspective of the gun culture. I argue it should be written from a global perspective. SaltyBoatr 19:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying that the OED is wrong, I am saying that its definition is not the only correct one. My POV is that its definition is a correct definition but that the one I cited above is also a correct definition of weapon. Per the Random House definition (I highly doubt that they can be considered to be writing from the Gun Culture's POV) the use of Weapon in the term Hunting Weapon could be considered a correct definition, both inside and outside of the gun culture.--LWF 19:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The Random House definition does not conflict with the OED definition and vice versa.

And, you stretch to read the Random house allegorical definition (the one associated with satire) as 'correct' according to your POV. Are you saying that guns when used for hunting are allegorical weapons? Indeed, they are. But in that case, I argue that the encyclopedia should avoid allegory when possible because allegory is easily misunderstood. SaltyBoatr 21:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying that it would be an allegorical weapon, the "Deadly weapon of satire" bit is an example of it in that usage, not part of the actual definition.--LWF 21:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You write 'an example of it in that usage'. Yes, an allegorical example. It is incredible for you to deny what you see in black and white and claim that allegory is not part of the Random House definition. If you are correct you then are in conflict with the Oxford English Dictionary, which is a strong authority. Who should we believe, you or the OED? SaltyBoatr 23:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The definition is literal, not an allegory. The example is an example of using something (in this case satire) as a weapon. It should be noted that the definition says, "Anything used against an opponent, adversary or victim : the deadly weapon of satire." It does not say satire, it says Anything. To provide an example of different dictionaries providing different but correct definitions, I will use the example of French-to-English dictionaries. In the Larousse French-to-English Concise Dictionary it defines Pitre as a masculine-noun meaning Clown, and when used as "Faire le Pitre" as to fool about. In the Collins Robert French Dictionary it defines Pitre as a masculine noun also meaning Clown, and with "Faire le Pitre" meaning "to fool about, or to fool around, or to act the fool." These provide different definitions of the same word, yet both are correct. As such, I do not say the OED is wrong, just that there are other correct definitions of weapon that allow for the term "Hunting weapon" to be Standard English.--LWF 00:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Note that you need to modify the text of the Random House definition to make your point. Just because you find another dictionary does not fix this problem: Either the gun culture definition or the OED definition must be wrong because those two definitions conflict. I will wait a week to hear your reply, I am heading out of town now. SaltyBoatr 01:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

What modification? Those examples are not integral to the definition in any way. They are just there to present an example, and that is all that satire bit was. I made no modification of the definition, because the satire portion was not part of the definition proper. Also, has it not occured to you that both definitions could be correct? Just like one dictionary can provide multiple correct definitions of a word, so too can multiple dictionaries present multiple correct definitions of a word.--LWF 01:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Either the gun culture definition or the OED definition must be wrong because those two definitions conflict. Have you read the definition of 'weapon' in the Oxford English Dictionary? SaltyBoatr 17:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

How do they contradict? The two definitions merely could be interpreted as, "a weapon is..." and "a weapon can also be..." rather then being interpreted as, "a weapon is this" or "a weapon is that but not this". Besides, we only have your decision that the OED is the only standard english dictionary in existance. Your statements to this point have essentially stated that if something is not a verbatim copy of the OED it is not Standard English and is therefore not suitable for Misplaced Pages, per your opinion. We have multiple citations that show the term "Hunting weapon" is Standard English, while on your side we have your insistence that only the OED is Standard English. Aside from all this, I found the term Hunting weapon more informative than Hunting tool, because weapon implies (and rightly so in my opinion) that an attack or violence is taking place. Tool has the connotation of construction and industry rather than attack.--LWF 21:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

1. I don't see your "multiple citations", could you restate them? All I recall is your "Random House unabridged, 2006" definition, the one with the allegorical usage. Further, your rationalization that we should ignore that allegory found in your definition is a great stretch of logic. Have you provided other citations?
2. Would you please answer my question: Have you read the OED definition? The accompanying OED etymology is very enlightening, and perhaps it would be helpful if you read it so we can discuss. Thanks.
3. Also, I don't see that your usage of the word 'attack' is consistent with hunting. Per the dictionaries I have read, hunting is the search and pursuit not the violence and killing. And, the killing associated with hunting is just barely "an attack", there must be a better, more grammatically correct term. SaltyBoatr 21:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Answering your question, 'How do they contradict?': Read the OED definition to see. During the last millennium of usage of that word, the context has consistently been 'combat' and 'warfare'. The modern gun culture usage conflicts with the last millennium of usage because no combat or no warfare is implied when hunting. SaltyBoatr 21:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

A "millennium" is only about, oh, 400 years too long, given that William Caxton only started standardizing published English in the mid to latter part of the 15th Century. The Oxford English Dictionary obviously didn't document any usage of English words before works in English were published. Claiming "The modern gun culture usage conflicts with the last millennium of usage because no combat or no warfare is implied when hunting" is patently false. Yaf 00:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I take your response to mean you have not actually read the OED definition of 'weapon'. Could you please read it so we can actually discuss what the OED says, (they date the origin of the word to the poem Beowulf). Hopefully we can avoid wasting energy arguing past each other. SaltyBoatr 05:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No where does Misplaced Pages policy require that we use only the OED as a sole reference for determining anything. Clearly, there are many references that show that hunting weapon is valid English, and that the expression is also in common use. That is all that matters here, not whether one book makes any statement or not. Yaf 07:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

"Longbows" were first used as a hunting weapon in and prior to the 13th Century, though, before their introduction into English warfare during the 13th Century. Yaf 00:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Quite ironic, for you to point to the book _Warfare in World History_, when the essence of my argument is that 'weapons' implies 'warfare' per the OED. I grant that weapons of war have had a long history of dual use, but that does not make the term 'hunting weapon' standard English. The OED is a very powerful authority. SaltyBoatr 05:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The quote in the reference shows the use of "hunting weapon" relative to longbows, and points out that they were used as hunting weapons long before they were used as weapons of war starting in the 13th Century. No irony here, just another example of the usage of hunting weapon in yet another English language source. Whether or not one book (the OED) says anything is not the issue here. It is highly obvious that hunting weapon is an expression that is in common and widespread use, and that it is entirely proper English. Yaf 07:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary, which is hardly 'one book', is the preeminent authority on usage of the English language, a very powerful authority. Not to say that you cannot find examples of misuse of the English language. By the way, you have not actually demonstrated that 'hunting weapon' is in widespread use. Though I agree it enjoys common usage in the gun culture. The question is, I repeat: Should Misplaced Pages use non-standard 'gun culture' English for the title of this article, when reasonable standard English options exist? SaltyBoatr 15:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Question still not answered. For instance the standard English term Hunting implement is widely used and suitable as a title to the article. SaltyBoatr 16:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiousity, how does the OED define 'combat'? While you're at it, look up allegory. You may be surprised to learn that the random house definition is not an allegory in any way. An allegory can be considered a drawn out metaphor, but the wordnet definition is in no way metaphorical or allegorical. Once again, I'd like to see your definition for 'combat'.--LWF 23:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Killing with satire? One does not literally kill with satire. LWF, you still haven't answered my question. Have you actually read the OED definition of the word 'weapon'? It seems not, and if not, then please do read it so we can actually discuss what it says. SaltyBoatr 05:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I do find it odd that you claim that all of the Government regulation usages, state law usages, federal law usagess, etc., as well as usages in international newspapers, magazines, books, and an assortment of other native English-speaking sources are somehow all invalid sources and are together collectively misusing the English language, since, collectively, these are the very sources that the OED attempts to research to categorize evolving English language usage. Gun culture has nothing to do with this popular usage directly; rather, hunting weapon is simply a widely-used and well-understood expression which appears in many English language sources. Hunting weapon is standard English, as evidenced by the rather wide usage that has been noted previously in (lengthy) discussions. One point, though, which version of the OED are you insisting should be the sole arbiter of proper English usage? Yaf 05:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You have never actually identified these multiple sources which you claim prove your point, and now which you describe falsely as being 'noted previously'. Only three have been identified above: 1) One proposed US regulation. {Please explain why a proposed local regulation is meaningful in a global article.} 2) One Random House definition, containing allegory. 3) One passage in a book about warfare.

The OED version I am using is the latest, OED Online, made available online through the website of my local library which I see is constantly updated as they identify new words and word usages. Here is their sourcing explanation: The online Oxford English Dictionary is a work in progress. Hundreds of new entries are added every year. The OED is currently being revised, with the aim of producing a completely updated third edition. Draft material from the revision programme is published online, alongside unrevised entries from the 20-volume Second Edition, first published in 1989, and its 3-volume Additions Series, published in 1993 (volumes 1 and 2) and 1997 (volume 3).

You describe this a 'the sole arbiter', and I do not. Yet, it is an extremely authoritative secondary source on English language usage, and the best secondary source yet identified in our discussion. Your original research based on your personal style of English usage, and your Google searches looking for usages of the term that match your own do not carry nearly the same weight. SaltyBoatr 15:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

End the nonsense

Hunting weapon is a commonly-used expression often appearing in formally-written English. For example, consider additionally the following international examples of the use of “hunting weapon“ in English language sources:

• Hungarian National Museum : Hunting weapons from the 15th century until today
• New Zealand hunting laws on hunting weapons
• Mississippi Proposed Hunting weapon restrictions
• ESPN article on crossbows not always being recognized as a legal hunting weapon
• Latvian hunting regulation summary, requiring that a “hunting weapon” must be used for hunting (and not a military weapon)
• Hungarian regulations on hunting weapons
• Russian Federation laws requiring compensation for seizure of hunting weapons
• 4th Circuit ruling containing observation of differences between a hunting weapons versus weapons intended for use in a criminal offense

Enough is enough. Lets stop this nonsense and end the POV pushing that weapons are only used for combat or in warfare. Not all weapons are used solely in combat or warfare. Not all weapons used for hunting are firearms. Not all weapons used for hunting are primitive weapons. Not all weapons used for hunting are even listed in this article. So what? Lets stop the inane, nonsensical discussions and return to productive editing for improving Misplaced Pages content. Yaf 19:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Your original research of the usage of the term does not carry the same weight as the Oxford English Dictionary. What is wrong with the title Hunting Implement? It would communicate exactly the same meaning and would be unambiguously standard English. I do not dispute that the term 'hunting weapon' is widely used, as your searching has confirmed. I just dispute that it is standard English. Your Google searching does not disprove the OED. The issue at stake is the credibility of the encyclopedia. When readers see the use of non-standard English, our credibility suffers. SaltyBoatr 19:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems that the brunt of your argument is that the OED is the only source of so-called Standard English. Somehow, I think a great many people would disagree with this. The logic of your argument is that Random House, WordNet, Webster, American Heritage, and anything else that isn't a verbatim copy of the OED is wrong. You keep saying that the Random House definition is allegorical, because it doesn't involve death, but the Random House definition just says "used against" not "used to kill". A document can serve as a weapon in politics just to present one example, and weapon has been used in that context before. And one more thing, I have never tried to prove the OED wrong, I just think that these other definitions are also correct.--LWF 22:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you misunderstand me and misstate my point. The OED definition does not conflict with the dictionary definitions you have identified, none of which mention 'hunting'. (Wordnet is not a dictionary.) The OED definition does conflict with a hunting usage of the word 'weapon'. The OED carries a great deal of authority. The question which you repeatedly ignore is: Why use non-standard English when good standard English option exist? I answer your questions, and you ignore my questions. This is a poor way to seek out consensus. SaltyBoatr 00:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

None of them mention hunting, but they can very clearly be applied to hunting. Although here's a question for you: why are all of these dictionaries and sources not Standard English?--LWF 03:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, you evaded my question, wasting our time. And, no obviously, they (all) cannot be applied to hunting. You choose to ignore the most influential dictionary, the OED. That is another question you evade: Have you read the OED definition? Would you do so please so we can discuss the etymology of the word. I believe that standard English involves respecting that words have a history use, and the OED documents that history as it evolves. The OED does not recognize the modern use you favor. The OED carries a very large authority regarding standard English. Now, please answer my questions. SaltyBoatr 14:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Would you care to regale us with the OED definition of weapon then?--LWF 22:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I fear it would be a copyright violation to cut and paste it here. The OED definition of the word 'weapon' contains 2,700 words and spans five pages. It is easy to look up in a library, I bet that your local library has free online access for you to use. SaltyBoatr 00:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

How about I post the concise definition from my recent purchase: the Oxford Dictionary of Current English? Because that dictionary makes no mention of combat, instead it says used or designed to caused physical damage or injury, or to gain an advantage. This being published by Oxford, I think this definition is suitable for staking the claim that "hunting weapon" is Standard English. It is from Oxford after all.--LWF 01:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between the Oxford English Dictionary (which is vastly more comprehensive) from the smaller Oxford Dictionary of English. I don't know much about the Oxford Dictionary of Current English. Also, I see that you have paraphrased the definition and I question if you paraphrased accurately. Have you read the OED definition yet so we can discuss the etymology? SaltyBoatr 14:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Response to request for comment on LoCE board: "hunting weapon" is an extremely common phrase, and what leaps to mind when I hear it is "spear > bow > gun". However, this article isn't exactly about hunting weapons. A short section at the end titled "Primitive hunting weapons" doesn't change it: this article is about guns. Ideally, there would be one article (hunting weapons) about weapons used for hunting in general, and another (this one) about firearms used for hunting. — Demong _talk 04:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I am curious if your opinion is based upon reading the OED definition? It appears that your opinion, is based on your personal experience with slang English. Again, I do not dispute that 'hunting weapon' is a common expression. I just observe that it is not a form of English documented by the Oxford English Dictionary, and that the OED carries a very large amount of authority. Further, reasonable standard English alternate title(s) exist, so I see no reason to keep using a non-standard English title regardless if it is common slang. SaltyBoatr 04:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I paraphrased to avoid plagiarism but since you insist, "1. a thing designed or used to cause physical harm or damage. 2. a means of gaining an advantage or defending yourself." Sorry about forgetting defense in my paraphrase. Now, I would like to point out one thing, when Oxford University Press decided to put together the Dictionary of Current English; its compilers came to Weapon and when they defined it, out of the vast number of definitions they had to choose from, they used the best definition they had access to, that wouldn't take up huge amounts of space. And at the moment, I am seriously doubtful of what the OED actually says, as you say the definition is five pages long, somehow I think that tucked away in it somewhere is the definition in current usage, not the one people used to use. I also wonder what gives you the authority to just come into a debate and declare that the OED, which most people don't have access to, is the only dictionary acceptable for Misplaced Pages. That claim personally sounds like original research, as their is little or no way of really backing it up.--LWF 16:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This is interesting. You cite from the Oxford Dictionary of Current English which you recently purchased, but I see that the Oxford University Press does not publish a dictonary with that title. Please explain. By the way, the Oxford English Dictionary is easily available and almost everybody has access. Have you tried your local library? Indeed, most local library systems offer online access to the OED from the library's website. The OED's lengthy coverage for the word 'weapon' addresses the history of the meanings of the word, and the history does not include hunting usages. I do not deny that, in the very recent times, slang usage has come to include hunting. But, I argue that the title of this article should not use slang. SaltyBoatr 17:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You'll need to look closer, because I have it right in front of me, and it says it was published by Oxford University Press. Try adding fourth edition into your search. Although I will also add that frequently slang becomes part of the language, and becomes accepted. Take a look at Shakespeare, he outright made up words, some of which are still in use today (although we don't always realize it). And also, I don't have a local library, the last one was poor beyond belief and got torn down. The closest is miles away and I have no way of knowing before I go if they have the OED.--LWF 17:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Look at this site, . OUP does publish it.--LWF 17:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Try calling your library on the telephone. Also consider another library, in many states the residency requirement is very liberal. I heard that anybody in the world can get a New York City library card for instance. I agree that slang can become part of the language, and in this case, per the OED a hunting definition of weapon has not yet. Therefore the question is why use slang when standard English options exist. Does your dictionary cover the etymology of the word weapon? SaltyBoatr 19:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I would think that any definition published in any Oxford Dictionary would come from or be included in the online version. By the way, it doesn't quite cover etymology, closest it comes to etymology is stating that it is of Old English origin.--LWF 20:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I ask again that you check the 2,700 word entry in the Oxford English Dictionary. The 27 word entry at www.askoxford.com is lacking in detail. When you check the OED etymology of the word you see that the vastly overwhelming usage is in context of fighting, warfare or combat. Hunting is not fighting. The OED entry (1.c) does allow for figurative usages, similar to the allegorical usage you found in Random House, but again I ask the question which you repeatedly ignore: Why use a slang, figurative or allegorical term in the title when a standard English option exists? SaltyBoatr 20:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring it, I just think that their is ample evidence that hunting weapon is Standard English. I dispute that the Random House is allegorical, as the example isn't really part of the definition, and when the example says deadly, it doesn't specify deadly to what, and there is also one last thing, there can be a difference between how something is used in a language and what it means. Weapon may be used more frequently in the context of warfare, but that doesn't mean that is the only proper usage.

At the moment though, this debate is going nowhere, so would you be willing to accept mediation in this dispute? I think it might be able to end this dispute in a manner that will hopefully leave all parties satisfied.--LWF 21:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation? Perhaps yes, but I suspect that we don't agree on what is at dispute. If we don't, what is to mediate? The dispute (as I see it) is: Should respect the authority of the OED with regard to determining standard English? How we can learn what is standard English without checking an authoritative etymology? The best source of that etymology is the OED, yet you can't or won't read the OED. Is mediation necessary to convince you to read the OED definition? SaltyBoatr 21:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to find a way, but it could be a while. Could you please refrain from moving the article in that time?--LWF 23:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that you will read the OED definition. Quantify 'a while'. Though, you have never expressed a reason for your opposition to another title. On its face, the title Hunting implements seems totally accurate, neutral and satisfactory. Or, as suggested by user Demong above, the article is really most significantly about Hunting firearms. The reason for your opposition is obscure. SaltyBoatr 17:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Hunting weapons to me is the most descriptive title, and has no theoretically misleading connotations. Although I will say this, if it must be moved, I think hunting implements would be the best place. Tools just doesn't have the right connotation if you ask me. A while means a week or two, as I am rather busy at the moment.--LWF 18:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

A simple telephone call, or quick visit with your local librarian could probably get you access to the OED online in minutes. Have you asked? I disagree that 'weapons' 'has no theoretically misleading connotations'. It is a very misleading use of the word in context of 'hunting' and I have provided authoritative sourcing of this fact with the etymology found in the OED. I respect that, in your personal usage of English this may not be the case, but Misplaced Pages should be based on non-personal standards, and the OED is a very powerful authority and standard. SaltyBoatr 19:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

1. See dictionary; "Large 20th-century dictionaries such as the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) and Webster's Third are descriptive, and attempt to describe the actual use of words."

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