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Archives

The archives of the discussion of the September 11, 2001 attacks article may be found here: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30

To-do: E · H · W · RUpdated 2022-03-27 Summarize the sections by cutting down on detail, which can be moved to the main articles specific to those sections. Combine related sections and cut down on ToC Better organization of pictures Provide more references Add effect on Northern Virginia, as the attack on the Pentagon occurred there. Priority 1 (top)

Template:WP1.0

Template:FAOL An event mentioned in this article is a September 11 selected anniversary.

...believes or facts?

Right now, the article reflects the opinion of an estimated 2/3 majority of Americans, that Al Qaeda did not get any inside help. Personally, I feel this opinion leaves out some important questions to ask, such as: why would George W. Bush not testify under oath, why not without Cheney present; how could Al Qaeda evade NORAD intercepts for 80 minutes? Any American wishing to avoid a similar tragedy should be wanting to ask these questions. Misplaced Pages is *not* the one to ask them. But we should not bury the facts leading to such questions under a Minitrue version of reality, either. So let's agree to disagree, and at least put the { { neutral } } flag up. Then, we can make the article NPOV and telling the tale of more sides than one. Misplaced Pages is not censorship. — Xiutwel (talk) 12:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

See the discussion directly below this one; namely that by your own admittance 'a 2/3 majority of Americans' don't believe in the ideas you want to incorporate. In fact you vastly under-estimate the percentage, and seem to ignore the fact that Misplaced Pages is browsed by people the world over. In fact that percentage of people who think it wasn't 'an inside job' is probably at least 95%, and such a view has not been substantiated anywhere, therefore undue weight policy clearly applies as far as their inclusion here. See also: 9/11 conspiracy theories —Harmonica 07:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

first paragraph

No proof exists that the trade center was destroyed by Islamic extremists, I've heard other versions of the story all supplying limited evidence just like the official story. Some people I know even think it was the Bush administration itself that coordinated the attacks. The first paragraph of this article states that the WTC was destroyed by terrorists which is not necesarily true.--Dominik92 03:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

All other explanations are fringe theories with very little support. Giving any credence to the, especially in the lead paragraph leads to undue weight problems. These explanations are, instead, linked in the articles 9/11 conspiracy theories and Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks. You will also find that they, too, are less than partial to such theories. --Haemo 03:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course you're right, I didn't see the links to the two articles you provided a link to, although I still think it is worth mentioning in the first paragraph that the Islamic terrorist theory isn't certainly 100% true.--Dominik92 04:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Very few things are 100% certainly true -- however, in the interests of encyclopedia merit, we explain the one which has a super-majority of support from experts, and leave the speculation and less-popular theories for more indepth analysis. Think of it like this; if someone said to Joe Everyman "what happened on 9/11", he'd say "Islamic terrorists attacked the WTC and the Pentagon". The rest is a footnote; that's what we're trying to get at here. --Haemo 04:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you realize that remains of the hijackers were found at all three locations?

• Remains of 2 Sept. 11 hijackers identified - at Ground Zero
• Remains Of 9 Sept. 11 Hijackers Held - at the Pentagon and Flight 93 crash site near Shanksville. This includes the remains of two brothers at the Pentagon -- Nawaf al-Hazmi and Salem al-Hazmi.
• About half of New York remains have been identified - more about the DNA identification process, mentions that remains of 3 hijackers have been found at Ground Zero.
• Hallowed Ground - article about Wally Miller, the local coroner in Somerset County, Pennsylvania

There will always be some coincidences with events like these, but the evidence is nearly 100% consistent with the mainstream account. No reason to give any additional undue weight to fringe theories in the main article. --Aude (talk) 04:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, as long as the article provides a link to the controversies and similar it's fine.--Dominik92 05:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Why can't phrases like "thought to be" or "most evidence sugguests" be used more? Both sides of the argument would be happy.

That would kind of be like "Pearl Harbor was 'thought to be' bombed by the Japanese on..."... Gtadoc 01:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The theory that the hijackers were not on the planes is not widely held in the 9/11 Truth Movement. The universal view in this minority group is that responsibility for the attacks lies with the US Government. How about (as a third paragraph in the opening): "Although official investigations placed responsibility for the attacks solely with Al-Quaida, there is a minority of people who believe that the US Government are responsible." Corleonebrother 19:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Finally, a "conspiracy theories need more weight" suggestion that could actually make sense. Still, I think that would still give too much weight to it. It's handled ably in the conspiracy section and articles. An example I used before is petroleum - A minority of people think that it has an abiogenic origin, and we mention that in the petroleum article - but not in the lead. It would also, I think, give undue weight to the 9/11 Truth Movement, as if they are the only group of people who believe this. --Golbez 19:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The petroleum article lists abiogenic theory as if it is a possibility, but just not a widely-held belief. Using the petroleum article as an example then, we should split the Responsibility section of this article into two - first the 'official/mainstream theory,' then the 'inside-job theory,' noting that the latter is not the widely-held belief. Corleonebrother 23:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The sum total of the mention of abiogenic origin is a small section linking to a larger sub-article. The sum total of our mention of conspiracy theories is a small section, linking to a larger sub-article. This is how it should be, or else we fall into problems of undue weight. --Haemo 23:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't object to the size of the section, just its placement within the article. The 'reaction' section contains the immediate reaction of various groups. I think its unfair to suggest the alternative views are just part of the reactions (after all, they have grown in prevalence over the years). The more natural place would be under 'Responsibility' since that is what the issue is about and currently the Responsibility section presents that it is Al Quaida without question. Corleonebrother 17:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) Conspiracy theories emerged as a reaction to the events. While many of the theories involve who was responsible, they do not all do so. By a similar token, not all significant conspiracy theories deal directly with responsibility; for instance, many deal with negligence or prior knowledge of the attacks, or with specific details of the attacks. It's fair, I think, to say they were a reaction to the attacks, and it really only makes sense for the article to be in that section, given the diverse views expressed in it. --Haemo 00:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

FAQ?

Since we seem to field the same questions over, and over, again (and the archives are getting huge) it might be a sensible idea to write a FAQ for this page, like the one at Talk:Evolution. Anyone agree? --Haemo 21:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Does the FAQ really help there? do people actually read it? or do they still get the same questions time and again? --Aude (talk) 21:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll ask them! --Haemo 21:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I share Aude's concern, but I think that if we write an FAQ then we can dismiss the endless questions by responding, "Read the FAQ." I think that writing an FAQ is an awesome idea. Pablo Talk | Contributions 02:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a very good idea. Some organization to the archives, perhaps in the form of a faq as suggested, would make it easier to see what are the reasons for all the conclusions regarding the outcomes of this article. Place some note at the top of the page recommending people read the faq before posing new questions. Kevin77v 01:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

They seem to agree with this idea, in general, and have found it to be useful. I guess the hard part will be finding some definitive discussions in the archives to put in it. Perhaps, if anyone can remember them off, they could link them below? --Haemo 04:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to pitch in, you can check out my current revision here: User:Haemo/Examples. Feel free to edit it. --Haemo 07:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I think a FAQ is basically a good idea, but it will be just as contentious as the article itsself, and that would not be helping. In stead of writing an "encyclopedic" FAQ I would recommend just quoting the main/best arguments from either side, referencing these to the archives, and giving the outcome of the debate. Sadly, there seldom was any consensus; the minority just had to walk out and since then the quality of the article seems to be deteriorating, getting more POV by the month.— Xiutwel (talk) 11:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Osama bin laden

According to the US government, there is clear and irrefutable evidence to link Al Qaeda and bin laden to the semptember 11 attacks, but there doesn't seem to be an explanation for why he hasn't been indited for his involvement, despite his common perception as the head master of the event, and even so-called confession tapes of him decribing his involvement.

The article says little about the why this is so, and it seems to only leave the door open for conspiracy theories,especially when bin laden initially denied involvement. Rodrigue 17:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Indictment is a legal proceeding. Often, specific indictments for crimes cannot be handed down with the suspect being in custody, because jurisdictional problems prevent bringing specific types of evidence to bear. To be quite frank, the FBI hasn't charged him because they don't feel it is of any benefit to charge him until they have him in custody. This is a very common tactic, especially for high-value and elusive targets, since it betrays less information about what the FBI knows about him. Any conspiracy theory which relies on this is prima facie hopeless, since if the US government had the gall to set him up, then why on earth would they stop short of indicting him? --Haemo 23:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, not that I believe in any this, but one could argue that the point was just to make him a despised and hated man in the western world,because commonly, people say the government would perpetrate the attacks so people would support an invasion of middle eastern countries (Afghanistan and Iraq) as retaliation for what happened.

And I don't know about the FBI wanting to wait until he is caught, since he was charged with two separate offenses in 1998 with ought his capture, according to his main page in wikipedia. Rodrigue 18:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, what to what end? Any conspiracy theory which used this fact would have to not only overlook standard procedure, but would be forced to apply schitzophrenic rationales to the US government. They are willing to, what, fake his involvement in the most notable terrorist attack in history but are not willing to use indict him for that involvement? That doesn't make any sense; it seems to follow the typical "you always find the right crumbs" logic for poor theories. --Haemo 21:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Question

Does anyone know if there were people on the observation deck at the time?

The observation desk opened at 9:30 a.m., so there were no tourists. However, some employees were likely there. --Aude (talk) 01:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, and sorry for not being on topic, i didn't know where else to ask this question.

Off topic rant removed

diff

re: 9/11 was executed prophetically

I would like to avoid such reactions (above) to our article, and am proposing we make it more balanced, as we will not agree on the final truth. — Xiutwel (talk) 12:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

NPOV guideline violation / and proposal to move forward

A lot of wikipedians above are, unawares, violating the Neutral Point of View consensus directive. I quote from it:

If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

One can do so: As "conspiracy views" on 911 have been repeatedly uttered, and never revoked, by former Ministers of Britain and Germany — both economic superpowers — Michael Meacher and Andreas von Bülow, I do not feel it is fair to refer to such theories as 'fringe'. They may be wrong, but they are not fringe.

As I assume there is about a 1/3 - 2/3 distribution on critics versus believers in the official version which is currently portrayed in the article, I propose we will agree to adopt a 20-80 percentage for giving weight to facts and views regarding this debate, hoping to reach consensus on this; and change the article accordingly. — Xiutwel (talk) 12:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

How many structural engineers can you name that support those theories? what portion of reliable sources adhere to those theories. The way the article is currently, with a section provided for those theories and link to the subarticle, more than suffices, given how those theories are viewed by the nearly all majority of reliable sources, structural engineers, etc. I think it may even violate undue weight by giving too much space to those theories. Just a link in the "see also" section in the bottom would be sufficient. --Aude (talk) 12:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment How many structural engineers I can name is not relevant; it suffices to name any prominent adherents to make the minority view worth describing in the article. Your opinion is that we should treat the minority views in sub-articles only, AND refer to those articles as less as possible. I disagree with both.
I am not really into the subject, but I can point you to a physics professor, Steven Jones, previously not controversial; and the leading demolitions expert in the Netherlands, when interviewed on TV, immediately assumed controlled demolition from the sight of the WTC7-collapse. I do not know about the sound. But again, I'm not debating whether these people are right or wrong, I am just debating the allocation of space. And we should definitely mention these views proportionally in the article, or else we need to throw-away or overhaul our guidelines on NPOV. — Xiutwel (talk) 13:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, we do mention those views in this article, in an appropriate amount of detail per WP:SUMMARY and link to the subarticle. There are numerous articles about various aspects of the attacks, but we can only have small sections about some of these aspects in the main article (e.g. only two sentences about the 9/11 Commission, short section on rescue and recovery, etc). Given that those conspiracy theory views are by and large rejected by reliable sources (with good fact checking), there is no reason to give them undue weight here. The section we have suffices and is consistent with how we handle subarticles. --Aude (talk) 15:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Aude. There are plenty of other articles which document conspiracy theories and other notions regarding this event.MONGO 15:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

NPOV does not mean putting reality and fantasy on an equal footing. Most of the dissenting "viewpoints" are demonstrably incorrect. Peter Grey 16:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

So, uh, who wants to help out on the FAQ, so we can just say "See the FAQ" ;) --Haemo 21:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Haemo, I feel a FAQ would be more useful when there is consensus. Consensus is defined as: editors may still disagree, but all abide by a compromise which best serves everybody's needs. There is, to my knowledge, no such compromise. In stead there is a majority viewpoint, defended succesfully by means of edit warring, not by debate. — Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 11:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I think I'll have to coin the phrase "there is no debating with the insane." The only ones who edit war are you and the minority. The majority are quite satisfied with this article. --Tarage 16:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Lack of evidence of Osama/hijackers doing 9/11

According to CIA/FBI there would not be enough evidence to hold up a court case against Osama Bin Laden and the other hijackers.

The alledged confession videos were proven outright fakes, the guy in the videos didn't look anything like Osama, he wore a ring on the wrong finger and wrote with his other hand, did I forget to mention that the real Osama denied his involvement... --otester (talk) 11:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

He denied it, before he accepted it. Kind of like John Kerry's voting record. As for "according to the CIA" you're making a logical fallacy. Just because I did not go to the store today does not mean I am incapable of it. --Golbez 10:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree the "according to the CIA" is a logical fallacy: Appeal to authority, but so is "according to mainstream accounts", "according to the official report" etc. How about "it makes no sense to state what happened on 9/11 because we don't even know what aircraft hit the WTC or the Pentagon". There is no reliable source that is capable of stating authoritatively what happened on 9/11. Pretty funny that 'the believable version' is that a fireball hot enough to melt steel and pulverise concrete didn't even singe the passport that one of the hijackers was conveniently carrying (on an interstate flight within the US), and it landed, completely intact on top of a pile of rubble. "I call shenanigans!" User:Pedant 05:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

And I call yet another conspiricy pusher who needs to read the archives to understand we have been over this over and over and over and over and over again, and that unless Pedant can read through the entirity of the logs, and STILL come up with something new, this debate is dead. --Tarage 13:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The towers collapsed due to core failing, sign of controlled demolition with the use of Thermate (Thermite with extras to improve effect) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wVLeKwSkXA. --otester 15:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Concidering that the core was hit BY the planes, that hypothisis is very unbelievable. That and posting something from youtube to back up your point is laughable. --Tarage 13:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Then what your saying is that only a small, minuscule part of the core has to failure for the building to fall at free-fall speed and everything turns into dust, now that's "laughable". --otester 15:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Way to oversimplify. A LARGE chunk of the central collum, where the elevators and stairs were, was taken out by both jets. This not only weakened the building substantially, but prevented everyone above the impact point from escaping. The buildings didn't free-fall, they stood for quite a while concidering the intense heat of the fire and the critical structural failures, before pancaking down. And if you seriously believe that the only debree was dust, you are more insane that I would have pegged. Next time you want to question the official(and true) explination, don't oversimplify to the point where I can so easly pick appart your argument till it is nothing but 'dust', as you put it. --Tarage 08:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

You may be interested to know that here in the Netherlands we have Americans (I hope they are not fleeing their own country yet) who bear witness that they were in the towers, heard and saw explosions well before the collapse. It must be very frustrating for them to see even[REDACTED] distorting the facts. — Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 11:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Explosions? Perhaps from the fire burning inside the building? The planes hitting the building? Flamible things do tend to explode. Random explosions do little to advance the idea that this was a planned demolition. Nice try though. As for distorting the facts, I know quite a few 9/11 victim families who are more than a little upset knowing that people like you continue to try to defame this tragic event. Think about them once in a while please, instead of just your heavy left leaning ideals. --Tarage 10:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Venezuelans keep fleeing theirs and coming to the U.S. and you might see a lot more of them soon if you haven't already, especially those with experience in tulip farming, windmill repair and dike construction. The U.S. sucks so bad that it has the highest rate of illegal immigrants of any country. Go figure.--Beguiled 14:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to Venezuelans of Dutch origine? — Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 16:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

And this has what to do with this article? --Tarage 10:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

All that is clear to me is that there are lacks of evidences on both sides..Mochool

(deindent) At this point, I would just like to remind everyone that this is not a general forum for discussion. Please focus your comments on the article. --Haemo 01:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Baseless dismissal of conspiracy

"Various conspiracy theories have emerged as a reaction to the attacks suggesting that individuals outside of the terrorist organization Al Qaeda knew of, planned, or carried out the attacks. These theories are not accepted as credible by mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders, who have concluded that responsibility for the attacks and the resulting destruction rests with Al Qaeda."

is the Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE. itself refers only to the American Institute of Steel Construction’s Manual of Steel Construction, a report from F.E.M.A. (an agency of the United States government), and the proceedings of the 1986 Canadian Structural Engineering Conference.

So the article’s verification that conspiracy theories are not accepted as credible by mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders is based on three purely architectural sources and a report from the government against which the accusations are being made. This to me is inadequate.

Also, the word "mainstream" is highly subjective. A gx7 04:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

That's because we have an entire page devoted to them. --Haemo 04:36, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

And this paragrpah dismisses all of them without substantial sources. A gx7 07:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Because the conspiricy theories are all without substantial sources. --Tarage 04:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Dan Rather said it looked like a controlled demolition. This article is as one-sided as the Warren Report. User:Pedant 04:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

And the Cottingley Fairies really looked like fairies to Arthur Conan Doyle; another man with no experience evaluating evidence such as that. --Haemo 04:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Name one person who has (prior to 9-11-2001) experience in investigating the collapse of a burning steel-framed high-rise building? NYC Firefighters said they heard explosions and secondary explosions, and that it looked like a controlled demolition. User:Pedant 05:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Please discuss this on Controlled demolition hypothesis; you'll see that qualified experts disagree. --Haemo 05:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You are correct on one point. We should just drop the word 'mainstream'. It's unnecessary. --Tbeatty 05:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

And essentially meaningless. It only serves to introduce a negative connotation to anything contradicting 'mainstream' accounts or reports or what-have-you. User:Pedant 07:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

HOWEVER, replacing it with something like A gx7 did, 'most' is NOT a helpful improvement. I'm for leaving it as it is, but if you want to make it even more damning to your 'cause', be my guest. --Tarage 13:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Just because Dan Rather said it looked like controlled demolition doesn't mean it was. Selective sourcing to support a dubious line of reasoning.--MONGO 21:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

My point was the word "mainstream" in this context is a generalisation. Not 'every mainstream journalist and scientist considers conspiracy incredible, as the article currently claims. Why don't we say "Conspiracy theories are a marginal viewpoint in the mainstream media at best, the majority of which report the idea as incredible."? A gx7 02:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

In the mainstream there is not controversy about what happened. This does not mean anything since mainstream can be wrong but is the way it is.--Igor21 19:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

This article should not be arguing who's right, just provide a fair, proportional and unbiased account of different viewpoints. So the article should mention the main "conspiracy" claims. The conspiracy viewpoint is notable, and deserves fair treatment. Even if you disagree. As it is now, the article is canvassing the government viewpoint - which may or may not be true - and is ignoring the view of prominent critics like former ministers Michael Meacher and Andreas von Bülow. So, let's rewrite the article. — Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 11:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is based on facts, not fantasies by a bunch of fruitloops.--Beguiled 13:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Beguiled, you seem irritated? What would upset you the most? (a) the possibility of 911 being an inside job?, or (b) people thinking that 911 was an inside job when in reality the government was completely innocent?, or (c)[REDACTED] mentioning in this article on September 11, that people like Michael Meacher and Andreas von Bülow do in fact exist? Thanks — Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 16:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

d) That in the face of overwhelmingly contradictory fact, some people still hold on to their facile belief that it wasn't a plane, or it was controlled demolition, or what not. Don't turn this into "inside job"; this is purely about the facts that the towers collapsed because planes crashed into them. You haven't been trying to assign motive; you've been trying to refute this fundamental fact. --Golbez 17:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

e) That editors come to Misplaced Pages solely to push a POV that derives completely from a politically motivated agenda with a cynical disregard for the truth. That's what irritates me...RxS 18:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

ad d) and e):
Thank you for sharing this. From your answers, Golbez and RxS, I sense you are irritated when politics is being mixed with scientific facts? I strongly agree that facts should not be cherry-picked or distorted to serve an agenda. (Before you read on, would you confirm to me whether we share the same ground here? #1)
Second, in stead of facts, I would prefer to talk about "observables". The final question being, we can all agree: "did the government in any way mean any harm?"
In my opinion, people holding different views on the answer to this question are still acknowledging the same observables. It's the interpretation of the observables which differs. How could different people being interpreting the same observables so differently? (Can you agree with me so far? #2 — It's important for me to know, I want to understand your angle in this.)
Well, firstly I must assume that researchers coming from either view have made quite a few mistakes interpreting some observables. Secondly, from different views there are bound to be a few people who willingly distort truth, but let's assume that most of the people involved are acting on good faith. I then assume that whenever it is pointed out that there is an inconsistency in story "A", advocates of story "B" will take that as further proof for their story. And vice versa. If and when I assume good faith, there can be no doubt that the same observables obviously can be interpreted by reasonably intelligent people in two completely different ways. Since, I believe, only one answer can ultimately be correct, this leaves me two possibilities: either there exist too few observables yet to answer the question of complicity, or there do exist enough observables but at least one of these views is failing to take into account all the observables in the proper manner. (In fact, these together form 3 possibilities: inconclusive, not guilty, guilty.) From what you have written, you are advocating the "not guilty" option. (Do you agree with my reasoning so far? #3)
You stated you are absolutely convinced that fundamental facts indicate that the collapses were sponaneous; from this you conclude there is no indication of government complicity. Now I want to know how you feel when you read about other views, because I want to work in harmony on wikipedia; is it insulting for you to read others claiming there could be any government complicity? My question again: I assume you are also upset whenever such statements are uttered outside of wikipedia, or is the "problem" confined to such statements on wikipedia? #4
Conversely, I felt hurt when I read your writing "politically motivated agenda", because I'm convinced that 99,99% of editors are working in honesty and good faith, as I am, and I need us to trust eachothers "good faith" intentions in order to work harmoniously on wikipedia. I trust you are acting on good faith (well, 99,999999% that is, and my girlfriend trusts you 100%).
I am looking forward to your response! — Xiutwel ♫☻♥♪ (talk) 10:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Normally I don't respond to conspiracy theorists here because there's no point, but you're so gosh darn polite about it. 1) My problem is not that politics are mixed with scientific facts; it's that people have a poor understanding of scientific facts. For example, folks like you mention that witnesses "heard explosions", and immediately assume that means a bomb. No; an explosion is simply a forceful expulsion of air, and something sounding like it could also be caused by a large slab falling onto the ground, or bits of tower trickling down the inside of a destroyed elevator shaft. "heard an explosion" is in no way itself evidence of explosives. Yet that would be the only way to repeatedly bring up the "heard an explosion" thing - to try to convince others of the possibility that explosives were used. But there is no evidence whatsoever of this.

2) Their interpretation of the observables is incorrect, there's no reason to give equal bearing to them.

3) There are researchers who believe the controlled demolition theory. There are also researchers who believe oil has an abiogenic origin. But we don't give those folks equal ground on any petroleum article except the one about their theory, because the overwhelming consensus in their own community is that they are wrong. The conspiracy theories have exactly as much weight on this article as they deserve.

4) I never said the collapses were spontaneous. They were caused by massive damage to the supporting walls and central core by a large winged missile carrying a large incendiary load. I never said I conclude because of this that there was no government complicity. I don't care if there was government complicity or not, when discussing the actual events of the day. That's why I resist your attempt to change the subject.

5) I'm not upset when statements such as this are uttered outside of Misplaced Pages because I can ably refute them. It's the difference between a forum-style communication with random people like this, and face-to-face communication with people that I generally know and respect, but have gone astray. This mode of communication is far more frustrating and ultimately fruitless, considering that we always have another theorist du jour ready to pick up where the last one left off. That's why I've generally stopped trying here. --Golbez 15:18, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

We go with what reliable sources are saying, which include sources with good fact-checking such as peer-reviewed scientific journals especially , as well as news media such as the New York Times which happen to agree with what NIST says . All these sources overwhelmingly agree about what happened. Above you mention two foreign ministers. Meacher, a Labour Party MP in the UK, is one of 198 listed in Category:Labour_MPs_(UK). 1 MP out of 198. No need ot give any more weight to conspiracy theories. The status quo more than satisfies WP:NPOV#Undue weight. --Aude (talk) 10:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Aude, now you're leaping ahead to your conclusions, are you perhaps in a hurry and wanting to end this debate soon? I'm anxious to know your answers as well to the four questions that xiutwel is raising (numbered #1 to #4). How would it be for you to answer these questions? My answers are:
ad #1 I agree that facts should not be mingled with feelings/judgements/opninons/believes/evaluations etc.
ad #2 Studying the subject 9/11, I was suprised to learn so many different interpretations are made also by reliable persons;
ad #3 I agree this discussion is about 'guilty' or 'not guilty' or 'inconclusive'. Personally I think that so called 'agreed upon reliable sources' are to my opinion not always reliable/trustworthy, because people get paid to do their jobs and are fired when they do not do their job according to the will of their supervisors. Sadly I've seen many examples of people in so-called places of authority that have been fired once they openly had a different opinion than mainstream. And on the other side I've seen vast amounts of work done well by people entirely voluntary (i.e. not paid. Why should they do the effort? They must be genuinely concerned.) So this effect could bias the reliable sources and this puts things in perspective.
ad #4 It does upset me that governments advocate more and stronger social control over people based on the so-called fact that terrorists were responsible for the attacks. Instead of us people trusting eachother more we are directed by our governments to trust each other less. I see no reason to diminish my trust in my neighbours. Vanja2 12:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to use the Socratic Method here:

CBC Newsworld gave a report that supported the idea of conspiracy (the video is here: YouTube). Are CBC mainstream? If anyone thinks they're not, I would argue that they're using a definitional dodge (salvaging the argument by changing the meaning of the word) to change the criteria of "mainstream" so that mainstream reporters have to be on the side that says conspiracy as impossible.

Because unless all mainstream programs report conspiracy as impossible, then we have to use words like "generally" or "the majority". A gx7 02:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The fact that some psychopaths wanted a tragedy like this does not demonstrate, or even imply, a cause and effect relationship. Quote from the video clip: Is this a conspiracy? Quite the opposite. -- Peter Grey 04:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Conspiracy link should not be at top

If there is to be a link to the "Investigate 9/11" website, it should not be the first item, but put together with all the other links at the bottom. 213.115.59.220 11:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks; someone had hidden that little piece of vandalism in a template, so it didn't show up on my watchlist. --Golbez 13:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Golbez, for the quick fix to A gx7's weaselwords. I was attempting to fix them myself when you beat me to it. =) --Tarage 13:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Weasel words? The word "mainstream" is a weasel word; it's very vague and subjective. By adding the phrase "most of" to mainstream, I was merely removing generalisation from the sentence. Those in the "mainstream" who do consider the tragedy a conspiracy may be a minority but they should be acknowledged. A gx7 13:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You sound like a broken record. They ARE acknowledged in their own page. Please stop trying to give undue weight to such theories. --Tarage 14:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Elementary my dear Watson

I'm not sure if I was seeing things or not... but just in case be on the lookout for a refrence named watson. Somehow it got stuck into the article for a few minutes, then vanished as I was trying to hunt it down. It links to a typical "Question 9/11" webpage. Clearly the act of a desperate troll... --Tarage 13:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no shortage of them.--MONGO 21:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Actual editing - "Memorials" section

I've re-written the memorials section, since it seemed a bit lacking. It can be more thouroughly sourced, and I intended to do that at a later date, but I don't believe any of the information is contentious. I would, however, like to talk about how to improve it. We have two options for the "Tribute in Light" picture, A or B. Personally, I like B, but it seems a lot of people like A more. We also definitely need another image; there were two other ones, which I removed - the first, because the World Trade Center Cross is not a memorial, and the second because it was too large. The America's Heroes Memorial might be a good choice, but I'm open to other options too. --Haemo 06:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work. Possibly, the section could stand to be shorter with details in the subarticle. But, the subarticle is a mess now and is in serious need of work. Things to note in the section and/or subarticle (1) there's a temporary Flight 93 memorial (2) last September, the Tribute WTC 9/11 Visitor Center opened. The center includes exhibits, and they organize guided tours (3) The WTC Memorial Foundation organized the "9/11 and the American Landscape: Photographs by Jonathan Hyman" exhibition in 7 World Trade Center last September/October. (4) I don't have a source for it right now, but a lot of progress has been made in construction of the outdoor memorial at the Pentagon. I don't think it's officially scheduled to be complete until next year, but think it will be finished sooner. It's not easy to get a photo of the memorial construction, but maybe. I have uploaded a couple more photos for the subarticle, but I'm fine with using the America's Heroes Memorial photo here. --Aude (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Flight 93 temporary memorial
• Tribute WTC 9/11 Visitor Center

To give the respect to the victims, survivors and to the significance, that is increasing with the past of time, we need to add a gallery to this article, in which it can be "portrayed", the different memorials, all of them are very important and deserve to be mentioned and their picture shown in this page. John Manuel-02:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Any gallery would be on the September 11, 2001 attack memorials and services subpage, not this one. The image you keep re-adding is not exactly appropriate for this page -- it's of a minor, non-permanent memorial which is not mentioned in the article. This page already has too many pictures, and three in that small space is too many. I know you like the image, because you took it, and it's a nice picture, but this isn't the right place for it. --Haemo 03:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not only that is nice, it is substantial because shows where once the tower were. Those flags and every single item belongs to that catastrophe. Probably, you sought this from TV, I was there, right in Manhattan and I experienced and lost friends who had children which I played with in the park. The photo, means the whole a lot for many people. I observe that you has put another photo, it is OK. The section is about "Memorials" and this photo reminds the reader exactly of the location of the towers. We are in disagreement at this point. It is OK too. Your POV is respected, it doesn't mean that we should follow it. I suggest to cool it off for a while and then comeback to this point. If the article has "too much" photos then as in the WP:MOS (Which it doesn't explicitly states how much is too much) a gallery is recommended. Another photo that can be included is this:

Remember, let time talk to us, well greetings, and happy editing John Manuel-14:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The point is that we don't need more photos of memorials. There is an entire article about 9/11 memorials. You like your photo -- that is nice. It's a very good photograph. However, it is of a minor, temporary memorial which is not discussed in the article, and so it should not be here. Moreover, yours reasons for keeping this image are silly -- "it has many objects from the attacks", "it's in the Jersey Park", and "it shows where the towers were". Well, that's super, but the other images already do that -- "Tribute in Light", a major memorial which has its own article, is shot from the Jersery shore and shows were the towers were. I added a picture which is specifically discussed in the article, and has its own subpage. Yours is not discussed, and is too minor to even have its own page. There's no reason to keep this minor memorial here. We are not adding a gallery for 9/11 memorials on the page about the 9/11 attacks. We are also not adding huge pictures of plaques about 9/11 that are not discussed either. These are not appropriate for this page, and should be moved to a sub-page. --Haemo 23:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Haemo, thank you for explaining your reasons, it is fine to disagree; however, now I have a little problem, with your qualification of my reasons with adjectives, like "silly". If you felt happy, alright. Go ahead. Do you think that knowing and experiencing the pain of the disappearance of one of my friends who left his two children and wife alone forever, it is also "silly"? Now, about your temporal statement. No matter who long will pass this will remain in my soul, I have never cope nor I will be able to. The fact is that from New Jersey, you can see directly whereas other times were the towers. It has more to do with the location than with the memorial. That is why the mayor understood the meaning of the memorial. It was, is and will be simply the view. You and nobody will change that. The view is explicit, see again the photo of the plaque and you will perhaps understand why that view will be forever in our memories. At least of those who experienced at first hand the horrible event. The towers were there from any other vantage point you can see it so clearly and so directly, my fellow wikipedian. You probably will need to excuse me, because incidentally, for me this is not silly at all. It is a strong remembrance not only of that event but the responsibilities ahead and the almost complete change of the world order. Now, you seem a little obsessed with this, as I suggested to you let the time flow; there are other issues to improve in Misplaced Pages I am sure you know. Thank you again for your response but I disagree with you, with my cognitive and emotional will. Have an enjoyable editing time. -01:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

You seem a little bit too emotionally invested in this to edit an encyclopedia article about this -- perhaps you should try contributing to some of the memorial Wikis that exist online. I can't say anything about your personal pain, your memories, or what you feel about the events. However, from an encyclopedic perspective, they're not exactly relevant here. Misplaced Pages is not a memorial; your reasons for keeping this image might be very important to you, but from an encyclopedic perspective they are not appropriate or productive. --Haemo 01:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That is according to Haemo's views, correct? I ask you for waiting but you couldn't do this. Why can't you? because you are emotionally invested truly in this too. Thats is why you recurrently come here, the other case is because you have other motives rather than contribute to this encyclopedia, I challenge you as you have done above, to go to other wikis or other pages and leave this up to other users. I bet you cannot because you are too involved on this subject for some reason. I tell you what you could do, go edit some art articles. It will give you a fresh start. However if you want to state here then do not judge anybody's motivations. Are you an overseer? Judge? Well in here you are an editor? Let go to your peer-review. You will learn eventually to do this in here. I promise. John Manuel-13:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

PD if you think were so much photos, why, then, you took out that photo and added other photo? It doesn't make sense. Does it? Consensus is hard it seems John Manuel-72.229.114.226 01:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I took out a photo of a memorial which is minor, and not talked about at all, and replaced it with a photo of an important memorial, which has its own subpage, and is discussed in the article. The reasons for the replacement should be clear. --Haemo 01:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

PD (Real reason: because the photo of your friend Aude is the best one because is the photo of your friend and that is all, Haemo) John Manuel-"-Todos Llegan de Noche, todos se van de día" 13:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I have problems with people that use so often "Shoulds" and "Musts", precisely because these words form the main structure of irrational fundamentalisms, which are often the mayor and direct cause of what is unfortunately documented in this article. Again, nope, your reasons are not "cut in stone" and they are not clear, neither they should be clear for every one or need to be taken as law. Are they? It is just your POV and as your POV is valid up to the extent in which mine and other editors' are too. You are putting your chosen and according to you more important photo instead of other photo because your own POV. That is a fact, and it is clear, what is not clear is your motivation to do so, and your understanding of WP:consensus, Consensus or WP:OWN. You might want to reread these contents with more attention. Also the WP:CV, calling names to stated reasons in a subjective manner and qualifying them as "silly", represents or belittles not only those reasons but the person who states them. I will put back the photo, you will ask for mediation at RfC. I will follow the consensus. Probably, you would be right under the eyes of other editors, as for me you are not; now, it is not only about the photo but also about principles. I just cannot accept the way you want to impose your views. In addition, perhaps you would get a campaign in pro of your views (I hope you don't do this) on the IRC or through emails and for such, more easily, you could obtain the consent of the consensus because you would have had supported by your "colleagues". That will be fine for me, but the diffs and the contents of these talk page will stand and the issue will be more evident when in the current time is seen obscure. With the past of time, as for example with Galileo Galilei's case who is attribute this quote: "In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual". This is not rocket science, for such we need consensus, but a real one, to defeat our challenges in the best effective manner possible . Mine nor your judgment, necessarily, need to prevail because is just mine or yours, but because is the best effective way, in this case, to portray the information at hand. Under my now "silly" and subjective reasons, I see yours a little too imposing and for such disconnected to the aim of the article, however not only in thoughts but also in actions. I suggested to you politely to wait, you could not do this and got ahead and change it. It is the third time that you are doing this. What is the problem with waiting? I think you want your way and not other, don't you?. Therefore, lets proceed with losing time and effort and we shall look for a mediator. The "Minor Memorial" is already there and is the memorial plus the View of the place where the towers were placed and thousand of innocent civilians sacrificed for God sake. (And I don't know were is the substantiation for such denominators of minor or mayor, greater or lesser, good or bad. Who are the authorities who are stating all of this? Where is documented and by whom?. By you? Verifiability is important in Misplaced Pages, show me your sources not only your POVs. See and read the photo above for mines) Has it been done an "importance" or "scaling memorial contest? Where? Who? Why? Now, if just were your personal POV, I accept it as such without epitomes, but again, why aren't you more cautious in stating it or/and acting under these impressions of yours? Conclusion which is the same as it was before: We are in disagreement, and because we are not reaching a resolution, then we need mediation from and an involved third party from WP:RfC. I will leave this task to you since you are the one who is fundamentally obsessed with the photo or other. The other way is to just wait in the most neutral form and see what others uninvolved parties would do with the article at large and with the section in which we are focusing right now. I challenging you to take a "wait and see" status; irregardless, if you think you need to win, I am not minding at all not to, but in consensus, with respect and civility. Respecting what has defined and identified our western civilization is important for any editor of an encyclopedia, I think. I resist any seemingly omnipotent imposition, I am an individual but I respect social contracts. Don't you? Have the most pleasant editing. Greetings. John Manuel-12:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The "Tribute in Light" picture is mentioned in the text, as is the Flight 93 memorial. I think it would be nice to have more about the temporary memorials, but not on this page. The sub-article seems the ideal place to mention these and at the moment it does not go into much detail on the temporary memorials like the one you have photographed. Perhaps you could write a paragraph on that page about these and include your photo on there as an example of one? Corleonebrother 21:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is about the attacks themselves, not the memorials erected afterwards. In fact, some of this article should probably be moved to subarticles to new "daughter articles" and linked back to here to keep this main article focused. While I like image "B" above, it isn't really a big deal which image is used overall. Galleries and images as well as discussion regarding permanent and temporary memorials erected should be at the September 11, 2001 attack memorials and services article.--MONGO 21:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I would be against including any more memorials in this article. The idea of having a gallery of memorial images is a terrible one, no offence. --John 22:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Some comments above come across to me as incivil, which we try to avoid. Normally, I don't respond to such comments, but understand this article covers an emotional topic and can forgive such comments. I'm also pleased to be discussing improvements to the article, and pleased that the section fully referenced now. Though, per WP:SUMMARY, I think it can be shortened with some details more suitable for the subarticle. I usually find it easier to summarize the main article, based on a good subarticle. In this case, the subarticle is in dire need of attention of someone with time to fix it up (not me, I won't have the time in the next weeks). Also, I think one picture (or possibly/at most two) will suffice. My pictures don't need to be there, but whatever pictures are included should match what's discussed in the text. --Aude (talk) 23:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I have tried summarizing the section. You can see the sizes on the history tab. The page was 116,727 bytes before any of my edits. Removing the images brought the size down to 116,393 bytes and my copyedits have the article down to 115,593 bytes in size. A large portion of the bytes are due to all the references, which we can't worry about. But efforts to summarize sections, such as this section are helpful. See WP:SIZE for more about article size and WP:SUMMARY. --Aude (talk) 00:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Well, now we are communicating. I hope I didn't sound incivil just because, the diffs show the actions that have been done in regard to the photos and the reasons behind. I didn't care too much, but what really called my attention is when I sought the section and I understood its need to be improved. Suddenly, i put innocently a picture and you are seeing the positive results. For Aude and with respect this is WP:POINT, WP:Consensus and also Consensus, important to see is the WP:COI and evenly WP:NPA if what you really want is to follow the WP:CV therefore, it is good idea to visit and study WP:WOTTA or WP:ARGH!, well if you want to be really nice. Therefore, I have nothing more to do in here over this issue, but to respect your views. Now, about John's statements, unfortunately, I have to clarify the following, giving that I do understand his explanation of his purpose. This country is great because ideas, yes some of them probably weren't so great for some people at the beginning, but innovation is our trademark, not because we want to steal ideas this from others, but because as a nation we have been blessed by individuals who were bold enough to have ideas of their own and acted upon them in the first place and with good will , and not all are success histories or enjoyed popularity. The only terrible ideas that I happened to know about in my life is those events that I have experienced in person or through the press. Like the plot whose aftermath is described on this article, which was wisely coined, "beyond all imagination". That is a terrible idea, it is beyond our morals, we cannot even imagine to do such a thing. Now, I know what you meant, John, you didn't like the idea and it is OK. Besides, I know how bold is Mongo so, in this case I need to respect both his long-term commitment to the project and his dedication and significant input in his comments and actions. Lets continue looking for ways to exchange all kind of ideas, and making sure that anything goes too easy out "there" because of "group thinking" feelings, but because is the more pragmatic way and for such needs to be implemented for obtaining excellence. Our time is demanding this from all us, the demand appears to be very granular in nature and should be observed at all the times. There is little room for mistakes now. Simpler yes, simplistic is is not the way. Well, that is my take from this interaction, I am sure we would have other opportunities not to quantify or qualify subjectively, but to ponder heavily on the issues at hand. Remember, Galileo syndrome, well, Giordano Bruno's case was far worse. The danger is in our "tribal perceptions" and how we use this "to belong", to survive and to obtain the power of feeling alright. I remain an individual respecting social contracts, my security rest perhaps in my "terrible ideas". Well fellows, until the next issue in which we will be again pondering what is best for the readers of Misplaced Pages, which in turn should be good for Misplaced Pages itself. John Manuel-00:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't exactly know how you believed that claiming the "real reason" that I added the photo -- which is widely supported -- was because Aude is my "friend" is in any way civil. I don't know Aude. I've never talked to Aude before. From what I've seen, I think he's a good editor, but your assertion is totally groundless and shows a serious lack of good faith.

This perhaps belong to the section above, exactly "friend" in quotes, you did interact in this section and in the FAQ's section that you initiated in this page. Period. John Manuel-18:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

It's nice that you are trying to improve this page, but, as everyone has mentioned, your image is not appropriate for this page. I understand this is an emotional issue for you, and so your excesses in this instance can be forgiven. However, you need to understand this simple fact -- the picture you have added is of a minor memorial which is not discussed in the article. The picture which has been widely supported on this talk page is of a major memorial which is specifically discussed in this article. That is why the Flight 93 image is included, and not yours -- not because I'm emotional about this (I'm Canadian, and so was thousands of miles away), and not because Aude is my friend or some other fiction. It's simply a matter of having pictures that reflect the content on the page, and not just because it's an image you took, which has some emotional meaning to you. --Haemo 00:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Look, the person who states and give time to his or her hands to write that he or she has not been somehow affected by 9/11, I have aaaaaa little probleeem with. Those who come to this page to contribute are emotionally affected, it doesn't mean that we are not able of reasoning or act objectively, far from truth. I suggest you to read Albert Ellis and his Rational-Emotional-Cognitive therapy or REBT for understanding this much better than you do at the present time. So you could stop about that argument altogether. Nobody in here has brought nationalities or believes or age or maturity, only you by mentioning that you are Canadian. With all my due respect, I care less if you are from any other country, my point is that you have acted without empathy or concern towards other people's pain or editions/contributions/efforts/POVS and imposing your arguments. You started by reverting or deleting the photo without outreaching or searching for any consensus within an article that by its natures had had editor and tense interactions. You did this by stating first that the photo was too big. I changed the size asking you politely to come here and talk to reach consensus, you did your post and all the same you reverted the article arguing about minor and mayors memorials and placed Aude's photo in the same location that I put the photo in question; incidentally, right after Aude replied positively to your first post in this section. I added that controverted photo without moving Aude's photo, and then you went to say too many photos and took out the photo and place Aude's photo exactly in the place that I did. It just doesn't fit well. Does it? Look I can take the time and put the summaries of the diffs whereby which you labeled you actions. In one diff covertly you even not mentioned the removal of the Photo. So you are not "thousands of miles away", you are "zillions of miles away" off the subject: We do things in consensus, you didn't at first and I forced you somehow to do it. you now are coming and talk. I have acted with good intentions and good will. I have mentioned the evidence from my time analysis based upon an intervention-interaction scrutinies that have reveled close interactions. Over this subject not only you but Aude and others have commented and collaborated and the section looks better as result. In addition, Aude did something that you didn't she offered an honest way out, a resolution. So if I invested my time to explain you this clearly, I have bad faith? You also write about the meaning of the photo for me and something about that I took the photo. Aude took his/her photo too, I am sure that s/he did it because for Aude that memorial means something especial. Stop using that Ad hominem arguments, just it is saying something of your understanding in here about human relations and development. For me the issue has reached its climax and resolution, i.e., a consensus have been reached, other users have contributed to it and has exposed their ideas most of which are reasonable. Lastly, your semantic usage of "widely", or "all people". You see five users are hardly a wide audience, or participation. Certainly five users can not represent the majority, and again even the majority cannot and sometimes does not represent or understand the greatest good. You know something, I glad that the photo is not in here, I don't know about Aude, but I felt as if I were getting into a WP:COI, also I don't think so as the time passes, there are more and more reasons, to remember this awful event with perspective. I achieved what I wanted, that you participated first in the debate, in the conversation. I hope you have learned this from this interaction, and so I have fulfilled my real intention. Respect for every Edition and for all contributors, that have meant well and good intentions, will and faith. Now, I won't comeback here for this photo-issue ever, and to this article for editing anything for a period of 30 days at least. In reference, to our conversation about this topic, for me has ended. I don't want to read it anymore. In the future, I am sure we perhaps will join again in some another difference or edition, without needing to assert Ad hominem arguments. Have a nice editing time. Shalom. John Manuel-18:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you feel about me, I think we can just drop. I'm sorry you feel that an editing dispute is a personal attack, or in any way insensitive; however, at this point it's a fait accompli -- the section has been re-written, and even two pictures would be too many. I feel that the issue can be dropped safely, because I really, really do not want to get into massive text wars over an issue that has no relevance to the article anymore. --Haemo 22:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

More editing -- the "Motive" section

I recently re-wrote the "motive" section of the article, because it had turned into a poorly sourced, and poorly formatted quote farm. I tried to synthesize most of the material together into some section, and trimmed about 1k worth of text. However, I am a little worried that we might be giving too much weight to the opinions of certain authors -- I would prefer more general sources for the section.

For instance, I recall reading, in Harper's (I believe), an article that made the same point as the last line; that of the "mythic" quality that Bin Laden ascribes to the attacks. I would love to use that as a source, instead of the marginally notable author used -- however, I can't find the article. I would like to do the same for some of the other sections, as well. Can anyone help out? Does anyone object to any of the sources currently used? --Haemo 22:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't look at this in-depth right now and will be on Misplaced Pages in limited amounts of time in the next 2-3 weeks, but some things that stand out:

• The first sentence "According to U.S. government sources,..." is not good wording, since governments of other countries, journalists, and other experts agree with the statement. You might be interested in reading what the U.K. government has to say - http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page3682.asp. And the government of Germany, with the Hamburg trials there, has done a lot of investigation into the attacks, as has Spain. I have seen material written in German, but don't have time to search for again it now. And then there are non-government sources such as Al Jazeera, specifically Yosri Fouda who interviewed Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh in 2002.
• Also, I think the paragraph "The motives of al-Qaeda have also been extensively analyzed..." is unnecessary.
• As for other experts, I haven't read Jason Burke's book. I can get a copy and look at it. The reference to Michael Scott Doran is to a book, which is a compilation of articles in Foreign Affairs. The one by Doran is here, but only a preview. I'll try to get a copy of this, in order to verify this. Foreign Affairs is generally a quality source.
• Some of the details may be better suited for the subarticle - Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks. Like the memorial subarticle, this page needs attention.

--Aude (talk) 23:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

This could definitely still do with a trim. I've re-written the first line to simply just be definite -- we don't really need to qualify it, since other views are extremely fringe. I disagree with your feels about the "extensively analyzed" paragraph -- it introduces the topic of the analysis of motives, beyond what are, essentially, statements by the primary actors and introduces the "popular" view. Definitely needs to improve -- this article has really slipped since it was a featured article. --Haemo 07:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Haemo, you claim it was "poorly sourced", that simply isn't true, I know I had sourced much of it when several months ago people wanted sources. The edit has been in place for MONTHS. Along you come and remove from the motives section the testimony were the vice-Chairman point blank asks what the motive was (the only time it was asked in the 9/11 hearings) and an FBI Special Agent gives him the answer. And you don't think there is something wrong with that? You also removed the statement from the Former in Laden Unit Chief calling Clinton and Bush liars. Your edit is from yesterday, the edit I am returning to was there for MONTHS. You are removing KEY facts from FBI and CIA agents and you are obscuring the motive in the motive section. Tel555 01:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

As I explained on my talk page, you want to restore a comment that says this:

FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald answered, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States."

However, the version I wrote already says the following:

The fatwa also specifically condemns the U.S. for "plundering" the resources of the region, oppressing the people by supporting abusive regimes in the region, and dictating policy to legitimate leaders. ... By a similar token, it decries the continued refusal to address the "occupation of Palestine". The same motivation was shared by the two pilots who flew into the WTC: Mohamed Atta was described by Ralph Bodenstein—who traveled, worked and talked with him—as "most imbued actually about... U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region." "When someone asked why he and Atta never laughed, Shehhi retorted,"How can you laugh when people are dying in Palestine?" Abdulaziz al-Omari, a hijacker aboard Flight 11 with Mohammed Atta, said in his video will, "My work is a message those who heard me and to all those who saw me at the same time it is a message to the infidels that you should leave the Arabian peninsula defeated and stop giving a hand of help to the coward Jews in Palestine."

As you can see, it was removed because it was redundant, not because of poor sourcing, or whatever. --Haemo 01:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Haemo, I read what you wrote and I know what you removed. It is CLEAR what you are doing. It is not "redundant." The public deserves to know what AN FBI SPECIAL AGENT SAYS, it doesn't matter if terrorists were quotes, the public should know that the question of motivation was asked in the 9/11 Commission hearings and that an FBI agent gave the answer. ALSO, it is VERY important for people to know that the CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief calls Bush and Clinton LAIRS. You edited that out! Come on man, you think I don't know what you are doing? I have been fighting this fight for years. And you are not being honest, you wrote "poorly sourced" which isn't true. Now you deny that you wrote that? Tel555 01:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the edit that has been there for months:

Statements by others

President Bush says, "They hate ... a democratically elected government. ... They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other." (President George W. Bush) Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People Bin Laden says the White House is "hiding the Truth ... the reality is that we are striking them because of their evil and injustice in the whole of the Islamic World, especially in Iraq and Palestine and their occupation of the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries (Arabian Peninsula)."

Former CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief Michael Scheuer has bluntly stated that politicians are lying to the American people about the terrorists' motives, "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people. We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live. And there's a huge burden of guilt to be laid at Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton, both parties for simply lying to the American people." Lou Dobbs CNN

During the 9/11 Commission hearings, Vice Chair Lee Hamilton asked, "What motivated them to do it?" FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald answered, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States." 9/11 Commission testimony June 16, 2004

Jason Burke, author of Al-Qaeda: The True Story of Radical Islam, makes the point that, "Bin Laden is an activist with a very clear sense of what he wants and how he hopes to achieve it. Those means may be far outside the norms of political activity as we usually understand it, but his agenda is a basically political one, though it is couched, of course, in religious language and imagery." He says bin Laden's aim is "to end the repression of the Islamic world by the hypocrite governments and the 'Crusader-Zionist' alliance supporting and manipulating them."

Counter-terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke, says to understand why America was targeted we need to remember foreign policies of the last 25 years. Policies of "confronting Moscow in Afghanistan, inserting the U.S. military in the Persian Gulf," and "strengthening Israel as a base for a southern flank against the Soviets."

THAT is all well wrirten and sourced! You claim (see above): "I recently re-wrote the "motive" section of the article, because it had turned into a poorly sourced, and poorly formatted quote farm." and that simply isn't true. Tel555 01:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

But, we specifically explain that the explanations of Al Qaeda were supported by the 9/11 report. Why does it matter if an FBI agent says the same thing? I mean, right now, the article says basically "al-Qaeda claims that its motives are X, Y and Z, as supported by the 9/11 Commission report". You want to add in a new section that makes it say "al-Qaeda claims that its motives are X, Y and Z, as supported by the 9/11 Commission report. Also, an FBI agent who testified before the guys who made the 9/11 Commission report also says their motives are X, Y and Z." What's the point? As I said, redundant -- the material which was poorly sourced referred to another part of the edit. --Haemo 01:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Tel555 has been blocked for WP:3RR. This article is on my watch list, so I blocked. The 4th revert was after the warning. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Question the neutrality of this article.

The article presents as fact numerous presumptions which have not been proven and as such they simply might not be true. In short, from the missing Boeing 757 at the Pentagon to the blantant demolition of the WTC Building 7, the story presented in the article here is overtly biased.

This article violates the NPOV, it fails to "represent fairly and without bias all significant views" of people speaking up here and numerous authorities on 9/11, many of whom hold credentials which make them "reliable sources". Bofors7715 03:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Questioned previously and overwhelmingly rejected. I suppose you can bring it up again, if you want to. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 03:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The operative word in WP:NPOV is "signifigant". Please read about undue weight to understand why there is only a small mention on this page, and then an entire article about 9/11 conspiracy theories. --Haemo 03:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Another Question

Are there any security cameras around Pentagon, can someone post a video or a picture of a plane hiting the Pentagon building? Mkashifafzal 11:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

CNN video - Old, old story. Also the #1 hit when doing a Google search on "pentagon plane camera". Does your question have something to do with improving the article? --StuffOfInterest 12:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Some screenshots of the video - User:Aude/Pentagon, with links to videos and other information. --Aude (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't you think it will improve the article currently poised in favor of US Govt.'s story? some 3000 were killed in US and some hundreds of thousands in afghanistan just lost their lives because US thought it was their fault, I wonder how a question be an "old story" if not answered, i am searching on net to find more clips and pictures of that crash, from other cameras showing an aircraft flying in and not a cruise missile flying low, your posted links of CNN are not working :P, thanks for your concern.Mkashifafzal 11:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The five Israelis

Why doesn't this article mention the five Israelis who were detained by authorities when caught filming (and celebrating) the planes crashing into the towers? Instead, this is only mentioned on the "conspracy theories" page. It really happened - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/11/SundayHerald_021103.html It is an important part of the events that occurred on September 11, and raises many questions about who was involved, and who had prior knowledge.Logicman1966 04:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

There appears to be no reliable information that explains how that is an important part of anything. The whole "celebrating" claim is based on one person trying to decipher the expressions of someone's face from a distance. Conspiracy theorists predictably develop elaborate fantasies from flimsy rumors, but we don't need to fall victim to those. Weregerbil 06:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yet another question

How many Misplaced Pages editors here think 9/11 was an inside job? If so, why are we using the mainstream theory, which nobody believes anymore? Come on guys, we all know that Cheney gave the stand-down orders for NORAD. This article needs some serious revision.

About first paragraph

Here is what i suggest for it "The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks by terrorist, suspected by US Government as Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America." Is it OK.

Here's a reply I've been working on for questions and suggestions of this nature:

The article isn't neutral (or "why do you not mention...")

Another common question that is asked about the article is why certain theories are not mentioned, or why the manner in which the article is written uses definite language (i.e. "is" instead of "presumably is", "were" instead of "believed to be", etc.). This is rooted in our neutral point of view policy — specifically, in the idea that while we are bound to explain information fairly, and neutrally, and the amount of space, text, and context, devoted to any particular view needs to be weighted by how much credence qualified, reliable sources give them. This is especially critical when we are talking about pages which discuss a general topic, like this one, and are segmented into subpages.

An understanding of what this entails is rooted in summary style — that is, a Misplaced Pages article is composed of sections, which are in turn pages as they expand and grow. Any given fact, opinion, or viewpoint has a "size" or degree of scope based on its coverage and acceptance in reliable sources who are generally accepted to be qualified about the subject. For example, the flight number of the plane which struck the South Tower (175) is a very important, and relevant fact to an article about the attacks. However, the original pilot of Flight 175 (Victor Saracini) is not that relevant — so, he does not appear on the 9/11 attacks page. However, instead he appears on United Airlines Flight 175, and further gets a whole biography on the September 11 Wiki.

This same process applies to opinions, and theories, in an analogous way. For example, there has long been theories that Adolf Hitler survived the invasion of Berlin in 1945, and fled to Argentina; there have been books on the subject, and picture purportedly of him. However, if you read the article, it doesn't mention any of these; they plainly say that Hitler and Eva Braun committed suicide in their bunker. This plain, direct, statement of fact has been disputed -- however, it does not violate neutrality guidelines to make it; rather, neutrality guidelines support it. The concept here is undue weight — that is, giving too much space, credence, or weight to viewpoints which are not accepted by reliable sources who are qualified experts on the subject. To qualify the entire article, and the entire story of Hitler's life, based on a fringe theory violates neutral point of view.

This does not, however, mean that it is always inappropriate. Continuing the Hitler example, above — although talking about the theories surrounding Hitler's death on the main article is inappropriate, there is an entire article called "Death of Adolf Hitler" which discusses the theories and speculation surrounding his death. The theory, which has not very much mainstream credence, is removed to a subpage; much like the name of the Flight 175 pilot is removed, as well.

The analogy is then clear for the 9/11 article; there are numerous theories surrounding who carried out the attacks, whether they had inside support, what planes hit which buildings, whether they were planes at all, whether the Jews had anything to do with it, whether the towers where dynamited, etc. The list is endless, and ongoing. However, the simple fact remains that an overwhelming preponderance of reliable sources, both in and outside of the government, disagree with them; they are fringe theories, in the same way that Hitler escaping his death is a fringe theory. A good way to put it is that there are many questions about the 9/11 attacks which have not been answered; however, the major narrative of the attacks is not challenged by any of the most credible question. This article follows neutral point of view and gives conspiracy theories a short section, and then an entire sub-article at 9/11 conspiracy theories. However, following undue weight guidelines this article does not compromise the overall structure of the article — in the same way Hitler doesn't talk about him as if he escaped death, this article uses definite wording, and definite phrasing to explain the view outlined and supported by reliable sources who hold expert credentials on the subject.

Related archives

• The use of "allegedly"
• Asymmetrical POV
• Conspiracy & POV
• Disputes
• More disputes
• NPOV?
• Reducing 9/11 Disputes: A Possible Way Forward

See if it answers your question. --Haemo 20:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

1. "Excerpts: TEXT OF USAMA BIN LADIN'S AUDIO TAPE". robert-fisk.com. 14 February, 2003. Retrieved 2007-04-26. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
2. Burke, Jason (2004). Al-Qaeda - The True Story of Radical Islam. London, New York: I.B. Tauris. pp. 23, 162–163. ISBN 1-85043-666-5.
3. Clarke, Richard (2004). Against All Enemies. New York: Free Press. p. 35. ISBN 0-7432-6024-4.

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