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Revision as of 18:44, 30 August 2007 editDavwillev (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users687 edits Your edit: Alternative medicine← Previous edit Revision as of 18:58, 30 August 2007 edit undoBlack Kite (talk | contribs)Administrators85,335 edits Jim62schNext edit →
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Good decision to remove that POV paragraph from the alternative medicine article. As I've done quite a lot of editing of that article recently, I decided to leave the fate of some of the other content (including that para) to other users so as not to take over. Hence, I'm glad you chose to do that. :) ] 18:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Good decision to remove that POV paragraph from the alternative medicine article. As I've done quite a lot of editing of that article recently, I decided to leave the fate of some of the other content (including that para) to other users so as not to take over. Hence, I'm glad you chose to do that. :) ] 18:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

== Jim62sch ==

I suggest you read ] and ]. <b>]</b> 18:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

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On the Hoyle-Boeing-thing-going

Hi Orange, I will try to get back when I have an identity on WP, planning to do so. Until now I've left comments here and there signing with IP. I saw you had a bad day checking for the original Hoyle quotation. This was from some archived discussion group, objections - evolution, or something. I don't have a firm reference at hand. Here's what I think, what I remember (I'm a physicist). Hoyle might have written it in a book, rather than an article. The book was coauthred, but I don't remember the name of the other author (Indian sounding). Whether or not the quote is there in that book, I think I know what he was referring to. Hoyle (almost certainly) firmly believed in evolution through natural selection, he understood that mechanism, he never questioned it, or he was just uninterested in it. What he was actually concerned about was the origin of life. He thought that life must have emerged somewhere in the universe, not on Earth specifically. Wherever it originated, it has travelled everywhere through comets and the likes. His motivation for coming up with this hypothesis was that life is very improbable, too improbable to arise in many planets independently at (more or less) the same time. But the Universe is very vast. So, by extending the "pool" for life to begin to the entire universe, such probability might become sensible. In summary, he argued, life has originated only once somewhere sometime in a vast universe (he probably still believed vaster than most do), and then was spread all around. This is also known as panspermia. Hoyle is using a kind of entropic principle he had used before for an outstanding discovery in Physics regarding how carbon atoms arose in stars. To paraphrase, he thought that a functional boeing can actually come around by chance if tornadoes are happening all over a vast universe at the same time. To conclude, his boeing argument was an argument in favor of panspermia, in relation to the origin of life, and had absolutely nothing to do with evolution, nor evolution by means of natural selection. It goes without saying that recent findings that suggest life exists in meteorites, compatibly with Hoyle, are dismissed as false by creationists, who cite Hoyle's objections out of conetxt, but then refuse to embrace his authority in regard to the origin of life (and the related findings possibly confirming one prediction of his). In other words, Hoyle passes from being a total genius in their view when he proposes the boeing argument, to a pure idiot just a few lines later when he advocates panspermia. --209.150.240.231 04:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

You mean Hoyle, the confusing guy? I swear everytime I read something of his, he's saying something different. Do I know you? Orangemarlin 05:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not likely we know each other. Not from WP though, I still have to open a user account. I make just comments to talk pages, usually suggestions for articles, anonimously.
Re: Hoyle. I am certain he proposed panspermia. I'm almost certain (99.9%) that's were he used the Boeing 747 example, which was not meant to be literal, of course it wasn't. He couldn't see an easy mechanism for the origin of life, so he kind of went for an argument from ignorance (I cannot see it so it must be very very improbable). But in essence he was just trying to increase the probability for life, still from the point of view of a pure naturalist/scientist, by enlarging the stage for life's first step (from Earth alone to space). One could accuse him of not being expert in that field, but he was not totally crazy, just bizarre (none other than Crick is another proponent of panspermia). His version also had kind of constant injection of biological "stuff" from space. But predisposition to bizarre theories is what has made the day for many scientists. Holye not being awarded the Nobel prize in Physics with Fowler was an injustice, but the intuition he started from was kind of bizarre, but absolutely correct. He was opposed, maybe, for his character. But to my knowledge, he never took any stance on Darwin. --209.150.240.231 05:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Dunno if this helps, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/chance/chance.html attributes the Boeing quote to Hoyle F Evolution from Space JM Dent 1981, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html#nonchris refers panspermia to Hoyle, Fred & Chandra Wickramsinghe, Evolution from Space: A Theory of Cosmic Creationism (Simon & Schuster, NY, 1981). At Kitzmiller, Behe testified that "n the year 1973, a man named Francis Crick, the eminent Nobel laureate who discovered the double helicle shape of DNA with James Watson, he published, with a co-author named Leslie Orgle, he published a paper entitled Directed Panspermia, which appeared in the science journal Icarus.", while Buell testified "Dr. Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe published together an article in the journal, a technical journal called Icarus. The title of the article was Directed Panspermia. ... and then Dr. Hoyle... wrote a book entitled the Intelligent Universe." Make what you will of that lot. .. dave souza, talk 11:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Hoyle also presented a paper on panspermia at a Royal Astronomical Society meeting in 85/86 (can't quite remember but can look it up if necessary) which was not well received (got very heated to say the least). Chandra Wickramasinghe was also lecturing at the time as we invited him to talk to our Astrosoc and from what I remember he was analysing cyclical patterns in disease outbreaks - the biologists in the audience complained that all he had done was prove that people got colds in the winter! Neither mentioned boeings in relation to these as far as I recall - they were just trying to get a serious debate started on whether life could have "seeded" in the same way other elements that make up the earth have come from other parts of the universe. Hoyle was a really nice man and it's sad that his legacy is so warped by the fixations of the time. This "life in comets" could prove him right yet. Sophia 22:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, probably Hoyle had an issue with natural selection too. Anyway, the 747 mystery might have no solution. Maybe it's not even in print anywhere. One hypothesis is that he mentioned it during a radio program. Now, that'd be interesting, as he had also invented the term Big Bang during a radio program (to mock it, actually). Anyway, Dawkins mentions it in The Blind Watchmaker. He's quite reliable, therefore I assume the quote is correctly attributed, wherever he learned about it. --209.150.240.231 06:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC) That was me! Now I exist as a wikipedian. --Gibbzmann 16:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Scary articles

Below are articles articles, mostly medical but some in the sciences, that promote ideas or POV's that might endanger human life. Feel free to add your own, but I'm watching and cleaning up these articles. Please sign if you add something.

Re: another Mac question

Hi there! Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I've been on a knitting bender, making socks for Christmas gifts, then the archiving bot took your post to my talk page archive before I saw it.

Anyway, if there's a program to help lose weight, I haven't found it, but I'm optimistic. When I had my first child, I lost 24 pounds in six days, so I've done it once and can do it again. That was expensive, though. And I had to take a baby boy home with me too. ;-) You could always turn to the myriad 'supplements,' like the ones that use chitin to bind cholesterol or some other such nonsense. (If that really worked, why not just eat lobster shells with a nice sauce and a lot of liquor and be done with it?)

Can't help you with the women, though. OTOH, it _is_ July, and you could always go over to a hospital near you and check out the brand new crop of wide-eyed interns. You know it's July when we have to dust off the "Ventilator Settings and IV Orders In The Real World" class and give it to them every damn morning until it sinks into their skulls. No software to teach them the difference between medical school and reality, and I'm _not_ optimistic about that. I guess I can't have everything.

Seriously, though, the apps/scripts I use most often, besides Butler, for Wiki-stuff (apologies if I've told you about these before):

  • My monobook.js file has Lupin's popups, Misza13's Status Switcher, and Twinkle.
  • TextExpander - a preference pane (accessed through System Preferences) allows me to type shortcuts - like "kk" for the four tildes, "citenews" to put in the {{cite news}} template, "oldafd" for {{Oldafdfull}}, and so on. It keeps track of how much time it saves you, and I'm at 2.86 hours of typing time saved. TextExpander was developed originally by the same guy who wrote Butler, Peter Maurer. He sold it to SmileOnMyMac last year sometime.
  • PTHPasteboard PRO - Butler allows custom pasteboards, which is good, but I've run into problems with instability if I ask it to save more than 50 pasteboards. PTHPasteboard is another preference pane that holds as many as I want and lets me do more things with them. I can name them, use hot keys for pasting each particular thing, and I can even publish and share pasteboards with other users (I haven't done that yet). There's a free version that I used for a long time, but I'm glad I paid the $20 for the pro version.
  • Sidenote - Sidenote is a tiny little memo app that hides on the side of your window and slides out when you need to jot something down. It's freeware, and you can create as many little notes as you like, format them with color, font, text size, and titles, name them, email them, export them, and more. It's very handy for numbers, phrases, instructions, quick reminders, grocery lists, and so on. For admin duties, I use it to hold blocks of text while editing, and for AFDs that I've relisted - each relisted AFD has to be manually removed from the old log and inserted into the new date, and I do that in batches of four or five, so I list their titles there so I can make sure I handle each one correctly.
  • browseback - another SmileOnMyMac app that runs in the background and saves my browser history. I used to use HistoryHound, but it didn't save the page as it's viewed, and browseback does. There have been some complaints about the app's CPU usage, but Camino uses more than browseback does, and I'm on a 15" PowerBook G4 with 1.5GB of RAM. If you use Application Enhancer, browseback has to be on its Master Exclude List because it crashes otherwise, but don't worry about it if you don't use anything that requires Application Enhancer to run.
  • Saft - I use Camino as my default browser, but when I do use Safari I use Saft. Saft is an input manager that lets me customize features of Safari. There's at least 50 different things it does, so go to VersionTracker if you want to check it out. The developer is a Chinese guy living in Sweden and his English isn't perfect, but he's really quick with support if you need it.

Okay, I'll shut up now. Email me if you have any questions, so I don't clutter up your talk page. It's time to eat some ice cream. See ya - KrakatoaKatie 22:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Han and Shang

I think in this instance you'll see that the stable version of these articles, before Hong Qi Gong's recent edits used BC notation. I have checked a random selection of recent archived versions of the articles, and they have all shown this to be the case.

Hong Qi Gong is free, of course, to argue his case for this change on the talk pages, but so far he has failed to gain consensus for his proposed change. Until and unless that changes, the original form of the article should remain - and that is why I am reversing your reverts.

I should note that I do not wish to take sides and push any particular opinion of mine here. Were I to see Hong Qi Gong's main adversary, John Smith's, make a similarly undiscussed change of an article that is stable using BCE notation to one that uses BC, I would apply the same principle, and revert back to the BCE version. Foula 19:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I should add that I have seen your comment here. As noted above, I think you've made a factual mistake here, hence my reversion. Foula 19:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Christian POV does not belong in an article that has nothing to do with Christianity. John Smith is POV-pushing, pure and simple. The template for Chinese Dynasty figures uses only BCE/CE, and there should be consistency. Just because someone placed Christian POV in an article long ago, does not make it right. AND, I am not making a factual mistake. It is POV-pushing by John Smith's. Time to deal with it through channels I suppose. OrangeMarlin 19:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Fourdee

If I thought that Fourdee eve intended to make a constructive contribution to Misplaced Pages, I would tolerate his racist views as I have other editors. But it is now evident tht he has no interest in wo9rking on articles but rahter will use talk pages as if hey are his personal blog. We HAVE policies that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, and that talk pages should be for constructive discusion, and he violates those policies all the time. That is my problem. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Censorship

I noticed some of your comments on AN/I about Fourdee. I think you've missed a crucial distinction here. I agree with you that Fourdee should be allowed to say whatever he wants, on his own website. Misplaced Pages is not his personal homepage, it's an encyclopedia. We're not intending to run a forum for free speech here- it's simply outside the scope of Misplaced Pages. See Misplaced Pages:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox. Friday (talk) 20:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Friday and SLrubenstein

OK, yes I do sort of agree with you, but only barely. He does not have the right to change articles into racist or anti-Semitic diatribes, especially in violation of WP:NPOV and a whole host of other wiki-rules. And if he persists in that behavior, screw him, toss him out of the project, get a community ban, and I'm there. But whatever he writes outside of the article mainspace, I guess I personally don't care. We all soapbox to some degree, so whether he does or not, doesn't bother me. I guess I edit too many of the science articles, and I see lots of soapboxing by both sides of the issue. It's part of the game. Fourdee's racist commentary on talk pages is perfectly acceptable to me (not in the sense that I agree, only in the sense that I ignore it), because if he were more subtle, he would keep his mouth shut, and put racist POV in articles, and we may not catch it. Everyone watches his BS, so we catch him. If he wants to rant about Jews, let him. I've heard worse, I've heard more subtle, and I have a thick skin. Free speech trumps everything IMHO, except in articles. But, like I said, if he tries to do this to articles, I'll be the first to ask for his banning. And once again, I'm going to shower thoroughly after voicing support for his right to state his disgusting racist POV. OrangeMarlin 21:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree very strongly. If he were allowed to rant his views here it would both frighten away otehr editors (includinmg our Jewish and black contributors) as well as giving a terrible view of the project as a whole. We are all volunteers and need a nice, friendly atmosphere in which to work and with him that was clearly impossible. I am personally unwilling to tolerate rascist atatcks merely because I work here, SqueakBox 21:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Soapboxing is not part of the game. The only opinions relevant to talk pages are opinions about how to improve Misplaced Pages. Opinions about the world in general are out of scope, and are regularly pruned if they get out of hand. As for "Free speech trumps everything", absolutely not. It's way more accurate to say that "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia" trumps everything. If you see soapboxing on talk pages, remove it. Friday (talk) 22:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


It does give me pause personally to see racist views expressed anywhere on Misplaced Pages; on private pages, on talk pages, on main pages- anywhere. Of course some cranks will put them there. But that does not mean I have to like it. It reflects badly on all of us at Misplaced Pages to permit it. If someone wants to have a racist blog off site, then so be it. We have nothing to say about that, although we might not want to link to it, or link to it only in very special circumstances.--Filll 23:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I was looking over his comments, and honestly, I am unconvinced that he violated WP:SOAP or WP:NOT#BLOG. He is a racist. He lacks civility (though I am on principle opposed to the civility rules of this project, because one person's civility is another's normal and common mannerisms). He is disgusting. He shouldn't have been banned. But again, I am NOT going take up his cause. OrangeMarlin 00:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

new policy

any thoughts about this? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your proposal, though I still contend he did not violate those issues, and was banned for being a racist. I think people throw around wiki-rules without actually reading them. OrangeMarlin 00:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I think its more accurate to say people throw around policies without re-reading them, SqueakBox 00:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Possibly. I keep being accused of personal attacks, when I don't actually violate WP:NPA. Civility, all the time, but never NPA. So I uncivilly post the NPA rules in any response that I make when I'm so accused. However, I'm now concerned that I do violate WP:SOAP on my user page. I really ranted about soccer a while back, and some Man United twit berated me. I removed it because the last thing I'm going to do is piss off a bunch of drunk Englishmen. OrangeMarlin 00:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Yep you dont want to piss off a drunken Englishman, lol. As I just posted to AN/I, and I'll rephrase, you can say you dont like me for being drunk or for loving football cos those would be personal choices (and I love alcohol much more than football) but dont slag me off for being English cos that is a matter in which I have no choice. Your user page isnt even vaguely offensive. Regards, SqueakBox 01:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey I like Englishmen. They made easy targets when we threw them out of our country (and that's about the limit of my patriotic soapbox). Oh but I hate their warm beer. And that driving on the wrong side of the road is quite annoying. And they owe the world for Benny Hill and Mr. Bean. And soccer. Hell, I'm going to be a English-racist starting today. OrangeMarlin 01:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Err you mean football? Actually I live in Honduras and am learning my American, zee and all that, but driving on ther right is plain unnatural but fortunately as a cyclist here we can use both sides of the road. And yeah i like Americans too as it happens, SqueakBox 01:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Category:Jewish atheists CfD

Hi. Thanks for your note. You wrote:

  • "I think the deletion is a bit silly."

I'm sorry to hear that, as I was the nominator.  :)

Seriously, though, if you examine this user's contributions, I hope you'd better understand my strong negative reaction. --Rrburke 14:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Your edit: Alternative medicine

Good decision to remove that POV paragraph from the alternative medicine article. As I've done quite a lot of editing of that article recently, I decided to leave the fate of some of the other content (including that para) to other users so as not to take over. Hence, I'm glad you chose to do that. :) Davwillev 18:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Jim62sch

I suggest you read WP:UP#NOT and WP:SOAP. ELIMINATORJR 18:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

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