Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:53, 18 September 2007

Do not edit my talk page

You placed a comment on my talk page and I removed it. You reverted my edit. Please stop this behavior. Please do not revert any my on changes on my own talk page. This is not acceptable. Thank you. —Christopher Mann McKay 04:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I added extra information to the prior edit. I wish to inform you of what I see as your unconstructive and distruptive behaviour on the AFA article. Hal Cross 06:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't care about your complaints. Do not fill up my talk page with your claims that I am unconstructive and distruptive, when it is you who is being unconstructive. Thank you very much. —Christopher Mann McKay 06:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I replied to you on your talkpage. Hal Cross 06:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do not comment on my talk page. I don't wish to dicuss anything with you. Thank you very much. —Christopher Mann McKay 06:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back

Welcome back, Hal. Glad to see that after gaining all that experience in content disputes, you used it to make constructive contributions to a wide variety of Misplaced Pages articles. In the interests of continuing that positive outlook, how about you engage in the discussion instead of just edit warring, and perhaps even make some arguments rather than appealing to an invalid interpretation of policy? Thanks, Orpheus 02:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, my webconnection was down for a while. Its fine to make reversions where they are obvious and if you are not repeating the same editsummary. Now, how about us removing all those controversial categories we nicely allowed you to keep a few weeks ago? It can happen really easily. We have consensus based recommendations on our side. Hal Cross 02:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

In response to your message on my talk page, all I am interested in is discussing the content of the article. Your empty comments like "It can happen really easily" are a complete waste of time. Seriously - try actually discussing the content rather than throwing around who said what and where. You posted on WP:AN/I about this sort of thing and it was resoundingly ignored. Doesn't that tell you something? Orpheus 16:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have a problem with me personally just say it. I am simply referring to WP policies and recommendations, and stating what seems to be inevitable about what happens with categories. Controversial cats tend to get ditched, and for good NPOV based reason. Its just one of those things. Hal Cross 16:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with you personally. Your reading of Misplaced Pages policy is flawed and your approach to community-based discussion is unhelpful, but none of that affects how I view you personally. You need to show that the categories are controversial - you can't just say that they are. Orpheus 17:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, you seem to be sending mixed messages. You seemed not to want deja vu on the AFA talkpage. But above you want me to go over the same ground and show what must be the most obviously controversial subject in the article. I don't mind, but you may appear to be quite vexatious to other editors. So what do you want, to revisit or not? Hal Cross 18:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No mixed messages, it's quite straightforward. I'm happy to discuss the content of articles. I'm sick and tired of your continuous posts to the talk pages that contain no actual discussion of content. The deja vu came about because you seem to be up to "adopt air of injured innocence", which if I recall correctly is the second or third step of the approach you took last time. If you're prepared to discuss the merits or otherwise of the Homophobia category, then that's great. If you insist on saying things that belong in a spaghetti western like "Now, how about us removing all those controversial categories we nicely allowed you to keep a few weeks ago? It can happen really easily" then it's very difficult to have a constructive discussion. Orpheus 18:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, you don't seem to understand the situation you are in. You negotiated for compromise for a few weeks, and now that the page is unlocked and new editors seem to be helping you with reversions, you have broken the compromise. I am offering you a chance to reconsider. I don't think I could put it more plainly than I have above. Please reconsider. There are other editors on the article who are pretty upset you seem to be wasting everyone's time. I am remaining patient about it because I think that is what is required. Continue to throw accusations if you wish. But editors are quite well directed to remove any controversial categories, and cat disputes show that any disputed cats tend to stay gone long term. Hal Cross 03:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

(od) What are you talking about? This is a total non sequitur. Misplaced Pages isn't a daggers-drawn, pistols at 10 paces adversarial forum. It's a community. The way it works is that people advance an argument to support their point of view, the community considers it and the argument which sways enough people (not necessarily everybody) ends up being considered consensus. It's not treaty negotiation. Nobody ever agreed to "If we can have X, then Y can go".

If you go back through the discussion, you'll find that the homophobia category was removed because it was a subcategory of Discrimination. It's frowned upon to have a category and its subcategory in the same article. As a result, homophobia was removed. Now the article isn't in the discrimination category, that reason is invalid. I don't see any other reason to remove it.

Some specific points: "I am offering you a chance to reconsider" - what gives you the right to make that offer? It's not your article, just like it's not mine. You aren't the gatekeeper who decides what goes in and what doesn't, and taking that role as you seem to want to is not a helpful position.

"cat disputes show that any disputed cats tend to stay gone long term" - I disagree, and there's a lot of articles out there that support that position. Perhaps if you edited more widely you would have noticed that.

"There are other editors on the article who are pretty upset you seem to be wasting everyone's time" - That's a ridiculous comment.

"new editors seem to be helping you with reversions, you have broken the compromise" - You don't appear to be paying very close attention to the page history.

As a suggestion, try advancing arguments of your own on the article talk page rather than making nonsense comments like "I'll check through the literature". It's the text equivalent of nodding sagely in a bar, and just as useful. Orpheus 08:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm being patient with you because I believe that is the most productive way forward. I am explaining what I see as the situation as clearly as I can. I know you disagree with me, but I am looking for points of agreement here. Timing is an issue. Exhausting editor's patience is really something to be avoided. You seem to have dismissed the possibility of the previous compromise that took editors time, patience and a lot of generosity to achieve. If you begin to show willingness to work back towards compromise then I believe things may improve for you. I'm content to wait a while. Hal Cross 09:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Civility

Excuse me? I don't see how my statement was "cutting". I've been ignoring your continuing snide remarks about how I'm supposedly pushing an agenda, and suppressing information, and the other accusations you keep alluding to, and you're calling me uncivil? I find it interesting that if you go back over the talk page history, the only time progress is ever made on disputes is when everybody, on all sides, totally ignores you. That suggests to me that your method of dispute resolution is combatative and unhelpful. Orpheus 00:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, your edits are definitely suppressing information. There is no two ways about it. You repeatedly remove sourced and relevant facts about the views of the AFA. I am referring to your edits and not to you. However, you have cast aspersions by implying I am homophobic. Please stop being so personal. I have to talk about the homosexual agenda on the AFA article because its core to the subject. I am working on getting the article into shape, and your personalizing is highly unconstructive. Please be civil. Hal Cross 02:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Edit Warring

Please cease the edit warring on this page WAVY 10 16:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

AFA

please participate here. Jaakobou 02:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure Jaakobou. Thanks in advance for your input. Hal Cross 11:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Editor review

If you're serious about wanting feedback on your editing, make a post at WP:ER and ask for some. I think you'd benefit from the experience. Orpheus 06:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking for higher level information. Admin coaching may be more appropriate. It involves more problem solving with controversial articles and issues. Hal Cross 06:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Admin coaching? Go for it. Here's the link: WP:ADMINCOACH. I think the response you get will be an extremely useful guide for you. Orpheus 07:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I had it already thanks. Hal Cross 07:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What are you waiting for, then? You want feedback on your editing, you know where to ask for it - go for it! Be bold! Orpheus 09:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm already getting feedback thanks. Hal Cross 11:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Really? Who from? You seemed very keen to get feedback on your editing style, but I don't see where you've posted in the many forums and sources of assistance available to you on Misplaced Pages. Orpheus 15:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I've been requesting admin advice since I came here. Its often very helpful. They seem to be quite happy to be contacted using a direct approach. Hal Cross 17:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Really? How do you request that, because I don't see any such posts in your contributions. I'm curious to know what method you use, and who "they" might be. Orpheus 17:36, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

We are allowed to email each other to seek advice, to offer advice, and so on. Are you asking me to give you a list of each and every experienced editor and admin I have contacted in the past months? Hal Cross 18:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

No, but one or two representatives would be a helpful resource. It's always nice to expand one's list of useful contacts. It's somewhat against the spirit of Misplaced Pages to get advice via email rather than on talk pages where everybody can benefit from it. Orpheus 18:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I just pick any. Their standards are pretty good as far as I can tell, and you can always get a second opinion. Hal Cross 01:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)