Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:26, 27 September 2007

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

United States: Mississippi This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Mississippi. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Christianity Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Organizations This article is within the scope of WikiProject Organizations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Organizations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OrganizationsWikipedia:WikiProject OrganizationsTemplate:WikiProject Organizationsorganization ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. LGBTQ+ studies This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Archives

Archive 1: 2006-03-18—2007-07-17 Archive 2: 2007-07-17—2007-08-13 Archive 3: 2007-08-16—2007-09-21

Removal of AFA views from the article

Orpheus, I refer to this link that was just archived by CMMK . You two have not been explaining over and over, you have been repeatedly dismissing sourced views. The "not a press release, detailed directory" objection simply doesn't hold. There is no policy on those points, and concisely presented sourced views do not apply. Summary style is WP style. I have explained that the important parts of what you keep deleting are simply deleted from the article. So the views are being suppressed. Two editors repeatedly deleting and dismissing reliable sources and discussion does not mean consensus. I am totally willing to apply for outside input on this matter and therefore I am totally willing to listen to Misplaced Pages community input. You can keep trying to dismiss my comments if you like, but its not going to stop me from applying Misplaced Pages policies to the article. I am not insinuating anything, I am clearly presenting you with the NPOV tutorial section on Information Suppression Hal Cross 02:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Hal Cross 02:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I am totally willing to apply for outside input on this matter and therefore I am totally willing to listen to Misplaced Pages community input.

Good - please do so.

I am not insinuating anything, I am clearly presenting you

That would be an accusation then. There's plenty of insinuation in the other comments, and I for one am sick of both. There is no information suppression because the information you are trying to add is either already in the article or easily accessible from the issues link provided (linked as "The AFA raises and pursues these and other issues").

Orpheus 07:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, Orpheus, I will just have to explain it to you again. The first line states "A common way of introducing bias is by one-sided selection of information. Information can be cited that supports one view while some important information that opposes it is omitted or even deleted.". You are introducing bias by deleting the reliably sourced information presented in the correct context . Notice I have not deleted any reliably sourced criticism of the AFA. Not one. You have been deleting repeatedly for a long time. The last line states "It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability." You are repeatedly deleting such information and thus preventing NPOV from being allowed. All relevant views should be allowed "summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability". The views are relevant to the beliefs and goals of the AFA and they should be presented without suppression. Please stop deleting such information from the article. The information is necessary to create an article that comes closer to featured article status. Hal Cross 07:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

More comprehensive belief section

In my effort to bring the article closer to featured article status, using the Islam article as an exemplar, I have added more belief related information to the belief and goal section . Please offer input or suggestions here. Hal Cross 11:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Orpheus. You just deleted the new and more comprehensive belief section . Now I am not going to say your actions are dismissive again, but you did rather say that it had been discussed "per lengthy talk page discussion" in your edit summary. Now I think you would have to admit that is not entirely accurate. Firstly there is more information there, and it is in a very different context. None of those things have ever been discussed. Furthermore, as per usual, and similar to CMMK's edit summary comments, you do not make adjustments, you simply delete without any suggestions on how to improve or adjust. Perhaps you would like to come back to the land of the living in terms of Misplaced Pages talkpage discussion? Or not! Hal Cross 16:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

, and . Orpheus 17:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, posting such links isn't helping anyone. All objections have been dealt with, and new material is presented. This version is far more encyclopedic than the one you keep insisting upon . Narrowing the views and suppressing their reasoning really is against NPOV policies. You are really not helping the article move towards featured article status. Please refrain from dismissing sourced relevant views, and please stop dismissing my efforts to accommodate NPOV policies. Hal Cross 19:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

New material

Regarding the new material posted:

• The Yahoo "action alert" is years out of date (2001 - hardly current). At best it should go in former (unsuccessful) boycotts, but we don't really need a comprehensive list of every boycott ever suggested by the AFA.
• The research by Paul Cameron is not published in a reputable, reliable academic journal and is therefore not a reliable source in this context. Additionally, Paul Cameron is a thoroughly discredited former psychologist who has been expelled by the American Psychological Association and censured by four professional organisations and a federal court. The Freund & Watson link does not suppport what you have written in the text.
• The bit about the AFA being under attack by the "homosexual community" is a slanted version of what's already in the article and is unnecessary.

Orpheus 07:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The Yahoo information is supported by multiple citations. The Research by Cameron is what the AFA uses to support their views, Freund and Watson is also used by the AFA to support their beliefs. Yes the AFA has their own slant on criticism of themselves and that is their view. Removal of such reliably sourced views results in such relevant views being suppressed and thus bias is introduced to the article . I am allowing all relevant views. You have disallowed specific AFA views giving the reason that the AFA is slanted. Misplaced Pages acknowledges that all have their viewpoint. I refer to you the basic point of NPOV, a simple formulation . I also urge you towards an article that is closer to a featured article status. That involves adding an encyclopedic level of information to the article, rather than restricting it or narrowing it in information towards any particular bias. I have been adding information that comes from the beliefs of the AFA according to reliable sources. Their beliefs and reasoning needs to be presented in full if NPOV is to be allowed. You seem to be perpetually disallowing such information against the basic goals of Misplaced Pages - to present encyclopedic articles. I have not once removed or disallowed any reliably sourced critical information. In fact I have just added critical information. Please go back to NPOV policies, re-read and come back to this article with a fully informative encyclopedic article in mind. Hal Cross 09:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Take your own advise and try to write "an article that is closer to a featured article status." Maybe you should read WP:IA and WP:FACR because your edits are not moving the article "closer to a featured article status." You continue to ignore any constructive criticism of your in inappropriate edits and you continue to accuse others of policy violations when they have not violated any policy; this is also very bothersome. —Christopher Mann McKay 02:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If you care to give any specifics on your objections, rather than dismissively delete, I think your comment above may mean something. As it is your comment just looks like smoke. Please offer constructive comments on the specifics of the material rather than me or your feelings about WP editing. I refer to your comments and your deletions and not to you. Hal Cross 03:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Your "WP editing" is directly related "to your comments and your deletions," which are made by you...—Christopher Mann McKay 03:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

CMMK your comment is unconstructive. You have still not explained your objections to the sourced material in question. For example, please explain why you object to the sourced and supported AFA views on the link between homosexuality and pedophilia being presented into the article. Hal Cross 10:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedic information; Beliefs and Goals

Orpheus. You have once again removed this information from the beliefs and goals section .To my knowledge it is all reliably sourced, adds information to the article and is relevant to beliefs and goals. Despite your edit summary, your reasons for removing the information are still totally unclear. Please explain your reasons for removing each piece of information in turn. Hal Cross 02:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

AFA and Boycotts

This information was removed from the article: . That’s a lot of information and a lot of explanation of AFA views. Removing the information creates a POV fork. Again it suppresses the views of the AFA for specific issues. I see nothing wrong with re-organizing or adding to it, but removing it suppresses encyclopedic information about the views of the AFA.

Also, this information is relevant to the boycotts section: The AFA have expressed concern that Yahoo is encouraging pedophilia by providing sites that contain sexually explicit pictures of children (PR Newswire 2001) The AFA's are running a petition drive urging Yahoo! to eliminate all such pornography from its site. Orpheus removed it saying its too old. The AFA is still here, Yahoo is still here, and Yahoo are still selling porn of all descriptions and it is still being viewed by pedophiles, homosexuals or any other category of porn viewer. It’s a relevant addition to the boycotts section, is current and ongoing. Feel free to offer any reason for why you don't want this information in the article. Hal Cross 02:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

AFA responses to Katrina

CMMK, you added this to the article; . Do you have the actual press release from the AFA in this regard? Also, I am just wondering the sort of bias the statement has. To me it looks quite one sided. What do you think? Hal Cross 02:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Freund, K. & Watson, Vitagliano

CMMK, you removed this multiple sourced view . Please explain why you removed it? Hal Cross 03:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it not obivous? In addition to what Orpheus stated, Misplaced Pages is NOT a place to reference faulty studies just because the AFA journal did a news story on it. It has no relevance... —Christopher Mann McKay 03:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Its an AFA view and you are not supposed to edit with reference to your OR on the correctness of the study. If you disagree that men seeking and engaging in sexual activities with boys is not a sort of homosexual behavior, I think the vast majority of the world would disagree with you. Its the sourced view that counts, rather than mine or your's. Its an encyclopedic fact and relevant to the homosexual agenda. Its a specific view from the AFA and is clearly stated. Its also neutrally stated and given with due context. Hal Cross 03:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Category dispute

The category dispute, especially concerning the homophobia category, is still ongoing. I added the category disputed tag and kept removal to a minimum so that the rest of the article could be improved. The dispute continues, as far as I am concerned the homophobia category is:

• Accusatory in this case
• Pejorative in this case
• Totally unbalanced. Its applied with only one particular view in mind
• Circumvents NPOV policy specifically because it cannot be annotated
• Lists are a much more appropriate alternative

Therefore, the category should be removed. Hal Cross 03:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody other than Hal Cross think this? The proposed solution is here: Talk:American Family Association/Archive 3#Category. Comment here if you agree or disagree with it. Orpheus 10:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree obviously. Orpheus 10:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. The solution here is to remove inappropriate categories. There is no point switching one inappropriate category with another inappropriate category. The pedophilia category is more relevant and appropriate than both the homophobia ones. Not that I am offering it as a solution, just that the homophobia and homophobic violence cats are totally out of order here, Hal Cross 11:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Nobody is suggesting Category:Homophobic violence for this article. Nobody has ever suggested that category for this article. That category was specifically created so that the American Family Association was not associated with organisations engaging in homophobic violence. It shows a remarkable lack of reading comprehension on your part that you are still suggesting that, after being corrected several times. Orpheus 12:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Lead section improvements

I made some changes to the lead section as per WP:LEAD. . The article main body seems to be under attack specifically from some editors who are persistently removing the sourced views of the AFA. So I'm improving the lead as per "relative emphasis in the lead should not reflect the body if the body is haphazard or missing critical information.". Feel free to discuss here Hal Cross 04:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

POV forking

Orpheus and CMMK. You keep deleting the section on boycotts including the reasoning for those boycotts . That creates a POV fork. Here is the relevant section . It states:

• A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article.

You have been removing the information in a way that hides AFA viewpoints for why they are boycotting those particular companies. I have no problem at all with re-arranging the a viewpoints to make them more concise and information rich. But repeatedly removing them from the article is unacceptable POV pushing. Please stop deleting the sourced views of the AFA. Hal Cross 12:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Hal Cross 13:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a list of boycotts. The article doesn't need to have a list of every single boycott the AFA has ever been involved in. It's fine to move that list to a sub-article which is linked using the main template. A POV fork is where you end up with two articles presenting different sides of an issue. That is not the case here. Orpheus 15:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a sub-article isn't that bad an idea. I may create it if for no other reason to cease this latest squabble here. WAVY 10 15:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Wavy 10. I really have no objection to sub-articles or whatever as long as the views are presented clearly and encyclopedically. I am open to any of your suggestions and would really like some advice on how to proceed. Hal Cross 15:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, you are dismissing WP regulations. Read it again, its just above in this section just a few paragraphs up next to the bullet point. Removing the large portion of the section is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. Sure you can have the other article and I can fill it out with more details about why the AFA has boycotted those companies. But the specific views about specific companies and why they are boycotted have to be present in the main article itself, otherwise AFA views are suppressed. I can see a lot of ways to make that section richer and I will do that no matter how many times you try to remove the views of the AFA. Deleting those views is completely unacceptable, just as it says above. It removes encyclopedic information about the subject. It impoverishes the article. It weakens the knowledge content of the article. It disinforms the reader about specific views of the AFA. I would like to remind you yet again as you don't seem to have grasped this basic fact about encyclopedic editing on Misplaced Pages; All relevant views are to be presented. I am allowing all relevant views. Please watch more carefully and learn from me and other concerned Misplaced Pages editors and allow all relevant views. This point is really very important and I hope you will try your very best to understand at least this elementary concept fully before you make any more edits or comments on Misplaced Pages. I will be extremely happy to make that boycott section more concise and encyclopedic. I can present the rationales for why the AFA decided to boycott certain groups of companies very very clearly. There seems to be a lot of room for that. I doubt whether an anti-AFA editor will like the result though. Never mind, Misplaced Pages is not about what we like. Its about making a good encyclopedia. Hal Cross 15:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wavy 10, there is no need for two sub-sections on boycotts; one is sufficient. Having two sub-articles for boycotts would not "cease this latest squabble here." I have no idea what you meant by such a strange comment. Please elaborate. (diff) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher Mann McKay (talk • contribs) 23:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, having two sub-articles on boycotts really would be a POV fork! I don't think that's what WAVY10 was suggesting though - looks like a misunderstanding to me. It's an easy mistake to make with all the reverting going on. Orpheus 00:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus and CMMK. Some editors are doing their best to solve problems here. Your constant removal of relevant views requires that certain adjustments be made to the information and structure of presentation. As far as I can see, it looks like AFA views will inevitably be presented far more clearly than some would like. But thats what happens when extreme demands are made. If you want extra support for a particular view, more support and clarity will be found. As it is, the article is growing more clear and information rich in terms of AFA views, and I know its a real shocker, but the information is becoming more and more solidly supported, which makes deletionism all the more wrong. The facts about the homosexual agenda, obscenity, pedophilia, and the link between homosexuality and child molestation are not easy to countenance for some people. Those items will probably be removed by vandals and POV pushers for as long as this article exists. But Misplaced Pages has mechanisms and protections that can deal with any such agenda. And I am working on making such trouble as positive in outcome as possible. Hal Cross 02:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• Unassessed United States articles
• Unknown-importance United States articles
• Unassessed United States articles of Unknown-importance
• Unassessed Mississippi articles
• Unknown-importance Mississippi articles
• WikiProject Mississippi articles
• WikiProject United States articles
• B-Class Christianity articles
• Low-importance Christianity articles
• WikiProject Christianity articles
• B-Class organization articles
• Unknown-importance organization articles
• WikiProject Organizations articles
• B-Class LGBTQ+ studies articles
• WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics