Talk:Courtney Love: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 06:17, 20 November 2007 editCobaincase (talk \| contribs)142 edits →KC suicide dispute ← Previous edit		Revision as of 08:47, 20 November 2007 edit undoDoc glasgow (talk \| contribs)26,084 edits →Warning: new sectionNext edit →
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	I do not request protection after the past few days activity. I would like to discuss this with anyone who wishes to. --] (]) 08:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)		I do not request protection after the past few days activity. I would like to discuss this with anyone who wishes to. --] (]) 08:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

	== ~~KC suicide dispute~~ ==		== Warning ==
	Does anyone agree that this shouldn't be on here? It really relates to the ] page, it doesn't really have an impact on Courtney's bio. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 17:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:Yes, it's thoroughly covered at ]. I've been talking with ] (] '''·''' ]) about this through email. We have come to an agreement that the prose about it is enough on the Cobain article, and unnecessary here. But he does want at least a link to the Suicide dispute section there which but it . I agree with Cobaincase that there should be some link of the evidence at least, because if there is enough verifiable sources and information to make a whole section about how Cobain's suicide is disputed and there is evidence to suggest Love was ''directly'' involved, there has to be some kind of connection here. would be the bare minimum. --'''] ]''' 05:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
	::I'm not sure that it should say 'dispute' on it though, because unless seattle police rule it as a murder or implicate Courtney, it's slander, which is obviously not appropriate. How about something that says "See also:Kurt Cobain Suicide"] 18:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)]
	:::Well that would be a completely different matter to be dealt with on ]. --'''] ]''' 05:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

			This article is a biography and as such comes under our policy on the ]. This is not a discussion forum. Pushing theories, conspiracies, and potentially libellous material will not be tolerated. Editors ignoring this warning may be blocked without further notice.--]<sup>g</sup> 08:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
	For some reason ] refuses to acknowledge that two highly respected ]s from ], ] and ], wrote a book implicating Love in Cobain’s death, along with a ] ], hired by Courtney Love. They all agree that Love was involved in the murder of Kurt Cobain. That information should be on Love's[REDACTED] page.

	Wikepedia should not be censored and that is exactly what ] is doing, it is strange that ] does not have an email address to correspond with.

	She is censoring a major fact about Courtney love. Go to http://cobaincase.com/ and http://justiceforkurt.com/ and it’s impossible to dispute the suspicion surrounding Courtney Love’s involvement.

	Who is ] working for and why is she censoring the truth on wikepedia.

	She should be examined as well as all the facts linking Courtney Love with Cobain’s death. The last four lines of Cobain’s suicide note are in a handwriting that has been compared to Love’s.

	Kurt Cobain deserves justice and[REDACTED] would be doing a great service by just allowing people to examine the evidence and make their own decisions regarding his death.

	Why doesn’t ] have an email address? What is his/her agenda? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) {{{2\|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

	:As you have already been told, the alleged controversy surrounding his death is covered at ], in a neutral, factual manner. It is not appropriate to cover it here, as it is very slanderous to imply that Courtney Love was responsible. You obviously are either a fan of or perhaps the creator of this cobaincase.com site, as you have named your Wiki account after it. Your edits are attempting to present the conspiracy theory as fact, and that is '''not'' going to fly here. Also, Please stop making accusations about other users' agendas, as continuing with that behavior is going to land you in hot water as well. ] 13:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

	::I have already discussed this with you personally as well, Cobaincase. I'd also advise you not to accuse any editors of scandalous behaviour (see ]). --'''] ]''' 16:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
	::: You'll find I don't have an email address available as I do not appreciate you ] spamming my inbox with conspiracy theories that most people left in the 90's with the X Files. Why don't you put all this energy into a "crime" that actually happened? Unless seattle police rule it otherwise Kurt Cobain committed suicide, and putting so on Courtney Love's page to suggest otherwise is slander.] (]) 11:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

	Have I spammed '''] ]'''’s inbox? I most certainly have '''not''' spammed yours, as you state, ].

	I just want to have an intelligent debate.

	Have you ever actually reviewed the evidence against Love?

	In 2004 ] and ], two highly respected ]s from ] wrote a book called, ''Love & Death; The Murder of Kurt Cobain'', in which they implicate Love in Cobain’s murder. I suggest you read this book and educate yourself.

	There are also two webites, http://cobaincase.com/ (not mine but ]'s who Love hired to find Cobain days before he died), and http://justiceforkurt.com/. Both of these websites are current and are dedicated to having the investigation re-opened in Seattle.

	Why do you suppose Courtney Love has never brought a lawsuit against these people for slander, since you are so concerned with slandering Courtney Love?

	If she did there would be a court case and she would be confronted with all the evidence in open court.

	This is not "X-Files conspiracy theory from the 90’s". But the truth '''is''' out there....if you do a little research.

	The Seattle police never even had a homicide investigator look at the crime scene. There was, unfortunately, a rush to judgment and many people believe a travesty of justice occurred. Please do some research.

	The statement that the gunshot wound to Cobain’s head was self inflicted is biased towards the shoddy investigative work of the Seattle Police.

	It ignores the vast amount of evidence which supports the fact that it was not self inflicted and that the Seattle police made a hasty rush to judgment without even allowing a homicide investigator to view the body.

	When I corrected this by simply eliminating the term “self inflicted” it was reverted.

	The only thing that is undisputed is that he was killed by a gunshot would to his head.

	Then when I clarified the timeline by adding the date that Love read Cobain’s alleged suicide note, (alleged because there is much evidence that the last four lines were forged) and added the specific facts that Cobain died on April 8, Love played the recording of herself reading the note on April 10 (and that this was repeatedly played on MTV) and Love's debut album was released on April 12, this was also reverted.

	Why?

	I just clarified the dates and added the fact that it was played on MTV. The statement that the suicide note was alleged was also reverted, with bias, ignoring all the evidence of forgery.

	All my changes were unbiased and related solely to Love and they were reverted by ] who will not engage in a dialog with me and even goes so far as to accuse me of spamming her which is completely unfounded and insulting; "I do not appreciate you...spamming my inbox".

	This is a site dedicated to the truth. '''] ]''' agreed that there "should be some link of the evidence at least, because if there is enough verifiable sources and information to make a whole section about how Cobain's suicide is disputed and there is evidence to suggest Love was ''directly'' involved, there has to be some kind of connection here."

	Again, two highly respected, unbiased, investigative journalists wrote a book in 2004 which came to the conclusion that Cobain’s death was not suicide and that Love was directly involved, yet this information has being censored on Love’s page by ].

	Is wikepedia about the truth, or is it a biased reflection of an unwillingness to look at facts.

	If Cobain’s death was not at his own hand, and if Love was involved, he deserves to have the truth revealed.

	Again all I did was remove the biased opinion that his death was not self inflicted, added a more complete timeline of Love’s pre-recorded reading, adding that it was broadcast repeatedly on MTV and that Love’s album debuted two days later.

	All this was reverted by ] in a biased attempt to keep people from learning the facts and making their own decision about Cobain’s death. I also added a link to his Suicide/dispute page and that was also reverted. --] (]) 08:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

	:Reliable sources state that the official findings was that it was a suicide. You unreliable sources are given their due in ], along with sources to counter their allegations. Du to policies regarding ], this info cannot be added to this page, unless it is ever confirmed that Love had a hand in this. Period. I believe that that is about as clear as it can be explained to you. ] (]) 13:49, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

	:FYI, I have opened a case at the ], so we can hopefully put an end to this. ] (]) 13:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
	:: Thanks ], I couln't have put it better myself. ] (]) 18:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

	] never directed me to the policies regarding biographies of living persons. I am a newbie and respect all Wikepedias policies. I respect the policies regarding biographies of living persons. I believe that a ] about Courtney Love warrants a mention on her Wikepedia page.--] (]) 20:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


	I disagree. The way the entire thing and the organizations that support it have become, instead of convincing people of the possiblity of murder, is anti-Courtney propoganda. The argument does not belong here and is a ''theory'' with heavy circumstantial evidence, which is not enough to convict someone and can be disputed in a court of law. Just because the book and theory is popular does not always mean it is a correct one. Theres many slanderous things said about Courtney after all and the media jumps on that, and frankly I do not believe Courtney can be as 'evil' as everyone potrays. They give her far too much credit in areas where they want to argue that shes something of a slut or make her look bad and do not give her credit where is due such as music and her band. I will say that at times she is somewhat of a media whore, but hey so is Spears, whose even ''worse'' in my opinion than Courtney has ever been. I think people need to leave her alone and let her be. She does play the widow and Kurt card every now and then, but theres so much more to Courtney than just Kurt or Nirvana. In fact she more of a household name than he is anyway.

	] (]) 21:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
	:Well I said to Cobaincase that if there is going to be any mention of these allegations in this article, we would have to carefully craft it here so that we don't violate ]. If we were to do this, we must definitely include that these are ''allegations''. Also, it should be short enough that it isn't a ], and it relates directly to Love herself. Whether we should have it at all, I will remain neutral there. --'''] ]''' 22:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

	Yeah I agree. She, however, was on the verge of divorce w/ Kurt towards the end. (This is attested by Courtney more than once and I can obtain and provide sources if need be.) Maybe that should be mentioned, but w/ it Love also said she wished she had married Norton. It does concern the marriage portion at least.

	] (]) 00:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

	It is hard to believe that anyone could be evil enough to have their husband and the father of their child murdered. It '''is''' hard to accept. Yet it happens all the time.

	The thing that finally convinced me was the interview with Eldon Hoke where he said that Love had offered him $50,000 to "wack Kurt Cobain". His whole demeanor in that interview, it just hit me in the gut that he was telling the truth. It was pretty relevatory for me. Then you look at the fact that he passed a polygraph and was hit by a train six weeks after he gave the interview. To me that is just too much of a coincidence.

	But when you think about the fact that Cobain was about to divorce Love and that they had a pre-nuptial agreement, and after Cobain’s death she wound up with 98% of Nirvana’s publishing, which she just sold 25% of for over $50,000,000 that could be considered a pretty strong motive considering what would have happened to her if they had simply divorced.

	She was also doing a '''lot''' of hard drugs at the time (a lot, a lot) and that can make people do some crazy irrational things.

	It also doesn’t make sense that Love hasn’t sued any of the people who are making these allegations public such as Tom Grant, Ian Haperin and Max Wallace. Love is very litigious; she sues everyone at the drop of a hat. But then consider that if she did sue there would be a trial with evidence presented to back up the claims.

	It’s not so much that people are trashing Courtney, and I used to be a fan of hers too. There is no question that ''Live Through This'' and ''Celebrity Skin'' are great albums. ''Pretty on the Inside'' is good too. I saw her on tour with Maryln Mason in 1999, she was great. People just want to clear Kurt’s name if he didn’t commit suicide and a lot of the evidence just doesn’t make sense. It's also interesting that radio stations such as KROQ do not play Hole any longer but they constantly play Nirvana. It's almost like they are boycotting Hole.

	After all the copycat suicides, the Seattle police would be in deep trouble if it were determined that they had indeed rushed to judgment and Cobain’s death wasn’t actually a suicide. It would be very embarrassing for them as well. They do not want to re-open this case at all.

	In my last post I was very careful about following the rules for living people. The book was a national bestseller about Love by two highly respected investigative journalists from a major publication, Rolling Stone. There was a big controversy at the time and Love commented on the book in the press. In my last post (which was simply an addition to Love's page) I stated that it was controversial and that the SPD maintain that Cobain was a suicide. I feel that if the suicide controversy warrants a mention on Cobain’ page, it warrants a mention on Love’s in the form of mentioning a bestselling book about Love. I do not understand how that could be considered vandalism.

	I could keep posting and change my ip address when one gets banned, it's not hard to do, but that's not my style. All this controversy on her discussion page tells people where to go if they want to search for the truth.

	It seem like you are all big Courtney Love fans who maintain her wiki page and who just are unwilling to even entertain the theory that Love was involved at all.

	It is hard to believe someone could be that evil.

	If the case is ever re-opened it will be very interesting. I will feel vindicated but will never say I told you so. Peace --] (]) 01:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


	I do hope you know that this is an ''encyclopedia'', not a place for outlandish '''theories'''. Theres contradicting evidence to what you stated as well. Courtney was a drug addict you say? SO was alot of people hence all the OD in the Seattle scene among her peers, and even into more modern times like w/ Layne Staley's death. Let us not forget that Cobain was likewise a heavy user as Love was.

	Hoke was sleazy and came from the streets, you, yourself cannot deny that his statements are questionable given his background. Frankly, i think you should stay off of Courtney's page and go to a real website to boast your POV of Kurt's death. If you have a disagreement, I would defenately say you can post it on my user page, rather than bickering on a talk page. You do not even take in consideration to what Frances would think of you talking bad about her mom like this, I think Kurt would be ashamed.

	You also are not even remotely neutural, if this controversy is to be added in the article, it should be written from NPOV that reports ''facts'' about the allegations, rather than reposting "facts" of the theory. I hope you know you are not making the Cobain case fans look any better.
	] (]) 03:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


	Hoke was sleazy and he did come from the streets, absolutely. He was a disgusting drunken pig. That doesn’t change the fact that in the almost 40 years he was alive he was not hit by a train until six weeks after he gave an interview about Love allegedly trying to have him “wack Kurt Cobain” for $50,000. And he did pass a polygraph with 99.7% certainty, by the same highly respected polygrapher who failed O.J..

	Layne Stanley was an overdose. I don’t really understand why you are comparing his death to Cobain’s. Although the amount of heroin found in Kurt’s bloodstream during the autopsy was three times the lethal limit which would have rendered him physically incapable of rolling down his sleeve, putting the syringe back in the box and shooting himself with a shotgun. That is just a fact that many, including the SPD, choose to ignore. --] (]) 06:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

	I have struggled with the impact this will have on poor Francis as well, but considering she watched her mother fall into serious drug addiction and almost die in 2005 she probably knows more about her mother than most. If my father had supposedly committed suicide and there was any shadow of doubt about that fact I would most certainly would want to know.

	I would love to be proven wrong, but facts are pesky things. And there are too many facts that support the theory that he was murdered.

	I’m sure all the Cobain Case fans aren’t worried about looking “any better”.

	The real bozos in this case are the SPD who rushed to judgment and now refuse to accept new evidence and re-open the case.

	I believe Elvis is dead, Andy Kaufman too. JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, and Kurt Cobain’s death does not look like a suicide.

	Why hasn’t Love sued anyone who claims this if she is so innocent and maligned?

	] and ], I do applaud your tenacity in defending Courtney Love who you both obviously have a great deal of respect for.--] (]) 05:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:47, 20 November 2007

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Archives

— September 2007

The Image Doesn't Suck Enough

Could we possibly get a blurrier image of the side of her drunken face? I think that would really help the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crash2108 (talk • contribs) 00:24, 27 October 2007 (UTC) Somehow, I don't agree Chickpeaface 11:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

References at bottom

~~can anyone give me a hand with formatting these? somethings changed and they are making the page wide~~ thanks Chickpeaface 20:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Real quote?

There's a section, when she's on about her custom guitar, where she's quoted as saying "Also, I am a total hosebag" is this a real quote or vandalism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.76.92.200 (talk) 23:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

i checked the source, and it's vandalism - i've removed it Chickpeaface 08:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

murder theorists

I don't think this is the place to replay all of that mid 90's speculation, so I've removed it. Chickpeaface 20:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

In 2004 Max Wallace and Ian Halperin, two highly respected investigative journalists from Rolling Stone Magazine wrote a book called, Love & Death; The Murder of Kurt Cobain, in which they implicate Love in Cobain’s murder. I suggest you read this book. This is not conspiracy theory from the 90’s. The Seattle police never even had a homicide investigator look at the crime scene. There was, unfortunately, a rush to judgment and many people believe a travesty of justice occurred. Just read the book or check out the websites http://cobaincase.com/ or http://justiceforkurt.com/. --paultimmons (talk) 08:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Picture replacements, anyone?

That picture should really be replaced. It's so amateur and blurred that she isn't even identifiable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.149.131.145 (talk) 16:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well unfortunately, it is the only image so far that is free, because it has a Creative Commons licence, and therefore meets WP:NONFREE. -- Reaper X 16:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

there's an appeal for a free image on her official forums, so hopefully something will come of that Chickpeaface 19:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I uploaded one from Flickr yesterday. I'll put it up. -- Reaper X 19:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

that looks loads better ;)Chickpeaface 21:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Protection

I've requested protection again after the past few days activity.Chickpeaface 18:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It was removed by a bot right after, maybe proper format wasn't followed. I'll re-submit it. -- Reaper X 22:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

nice one cheers ;) Chickpeaface 22:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not request protection after the past few days activity. I would like to discuss this with anyone who wishes to. --paultimmons (talk) 08:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Warning

This article is a biography and as such comes under our policy on the biographies of living people. This is not a discussion forum. Pushing theories, conspiracies, and potentially libellous material will not be tolerated. Editors ignoring this warning may be blocked without further notice.--Doc 08:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

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