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Veropedia and Misplaced Pages

Dear Jimbo,

I don't know where else to post to get a relatively "official" position on the relationship between Veropedia and Misplaced Pages. I'd like to start with the "facts", if you will:

• Veropedia is described as a "for-profit" encyclopedia web site in its Misplaced Pages article.
• The owner of Veropedia appears to be sponsoring or co-sponsoring a contest to improve[REDACTED] articles, with cash prizes. I removed a sentence from that contest page that implied to me that the purpose of the contest was essentially to move improved articles over to Veropedia.
• The owner of Veropedia is a former employee of the Wikimedia Foundation.
• Veropedia user boxes and templates appear on many user pages. Unlike other "branded" userboxes, the users who place them on their pages seem in a fundamentally different position—they are affiliated with the company; or, if they are not, they appear to be affiliated because of the unclear position of Veropedia with respect to Misplaced Pages.
• One user has a link in his or her signature that brings the reader to a promotion of Veropedia: See User:Moreschi/If. The page was nominated for deletion, and deleted by the closer in spite of the many Keep votes because the closer felt it to be simple advertising. (Was it simple advertising?—Well, that link is how I found out about Veropedia.) It has since been the subject of a Deletion Review and has been reinstated.
• In general, plenty of linking and discussion about Veropedia has taken place over the last month on Misplaced Pages.

In trying to understand how this is an appropriate use of Misplaced Pages, I have so far posted twice on User:Danny's talk page, and I have received a few responses from related parties, which stress that Veropedia will give back to Misplaced Pages, and that the two organizations have compatible goals. Nobody has yet addressed my question as to the ethicality of this relationship: I am concerned that this for-profit organization is attempting to embed itself here as a casual, informal extension of Misplaced Pages; that it will gain through the obviously valuable halo effect that it will receive from Misplaced Pages links and activities; and that this, in the view of society's consensus views on profit/non-profit business ethics is, indeed, unethical. Compare any other GFDL-compliant "mirror": none of them receive this benefit. Thus, to be clear, the re-use of open content is not the issue at all; the issue is that Misplaced Pages appears to be the ground for the sowing of a for-profit organization's seeds. What other organization has ever been permitted this (spam attempts notwithstanding)?

Your talk page is a busy place, and I wish to state that I am not a trollish editor flying by to create a fuss. I have contributed to the wiki positively for some time and have about 9000 edits. I am not writing because I am "anti-mirror" or have had some bothersome realization about GFDL licensing—such ideas simply distort the key issue I'm raising. Further, I have had no prior dealings with Veropedia or its owner, and have no reason to spend my time examining this issue other than its ethical bearing on whether I can in good conscience continue to contribute here.

Thus, I am here to ask, in earnest, if the Foundation considers this an issue worth examining, or has it already accepted this promotional activity? Of course, Veropedia's activities here are nascent. If the current amount of Veropedia cross-pollination is OK, how much Veropedia promotion would have to be in place, scattered about Misplaced Pages, before it became a concern? Has Wikimedia considered that the organization appears to be affiliated with Veropedia, or "not at arm's length", because of Veropedia's similarities, because of its presence on Misplaced Pages, and because its owner is a former Foundation employee? I hope you would agree that now is the time to clearly state—for the benefit of Misplaced Pages's volunteers and for proactivity in public relations—what is the official position on for-profit website promotion on Misplaced Pages. If this promotional activity is permitted, it's good to know. I have an Amazon.com affiliate account that I may start linking to on-site—it too will benefit Misplaced Pages, because I plan to send 40% of the proceeds to the Foundation, and I'll sponsor some contests too.

My apologies if this issue has been formally discussed elsewhere; I haven't seen anything. Thank you for your time. –Outriggr § 22:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You might want to consider going to #veropedia on IRC where it can be explained to you by people familiar with the way Veropedia works, or wait until you contact Danny before you make up your mind on Veropedia. ⇒SWATJester 01:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a fair question. KnightLago 14:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

See also

• Wikia

E kala mai. ;-) --Ali'i 14:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I see where the project stands on this. Thanks. –Outriggr § 00:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clearer, for posterity (who else is listening?), my above one-sentence post should have been more direct. Here's the new version:

I regret that no one will provide a thoughtful response on this topic. I'd like to be shown wrong here. One could say, for example, "Thank you for writing Outriggr. I understand your concern, but I don't see this as an ethical issue or presenting a conflict of interest for Misplaced Pages because... ". I might have stayed with the project had anyone, not just Jimbo, ever approached me in that manner. If I'm wrong, tell me why; if I'm way off base, the reply should be easy. But all I've received so far are bromides and silence, bringing to mind that old saying "the silence is deafening". I am leaving Misplaced Pages, a culmination of factors: partly because of my original concern, partly because nobody will actually present a counter-argument to it , and certainly in protest of the recent issues surrounding sockpuppet hunts and non-transparent activities. Apparently we regular Misplaced Pages editors are to pretend that these issues have no bearing on us—but they do. The most productive editors are often the ones who, quietly, go away. There are ways to stop this cycle. Regretfully, –Outriggr § 01:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The saying brought to my mind is attributed to Edmund Burke. --JayHenry (talk) 05:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Your quote in The Register

"'I believe that Jimbo's credibility has been greatly damaged because of his open support for these people,' says Charles Ainsworth."

Open support for which people?

--Jimbo Wales 14:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The people involved in those secret email lists. In addition to your comments in the ANI thread and on Giano's talk page in which you appeared to criticize Giano much more harshly than Durova, there are also these comments on the Wikien board: , , that show your support. Do you want some names? SlimVirgin organized and administered the CyberStalking list, and Moreschi and Krimpet have pointed out that she was active in discussions on that list in spite of her claims that she wasn't. JzG has stated that he was involved in that list and also organized and administered the "investigations" list. For other names, all you need to do is look at discussions, threads, RfCs, and RfAs where SlimVirgin, Durova, Jayjg, and/or JzG have gotten involved and suddenly 10 to 20 other editors, mostly admins, have suddenly appeared within a few hours, but often within minutes, of each other to support whatever cause or issue that any of those four have taken a stand on. Cla68 (talk) 23:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Why on earth would any of that damage my reputation? I have no idea where or when Slim Virgin claimed not to be active in discussions on that list, can you prove this astounding charge? Slim Virgin was by any reasonable account one of the primary participants in the list, and no wonder, since she has been the victim of really astounding stalking up to and including published nonsense that she is a spy!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla, please check what was said. I said I was never an active participant in the investigations list, which was created by others to move discussions about sockpuppetry away from the cyberstalking list. SlimVirgin 02:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Here you go . SlimVirgin states that she posted "once" to that list, and Moreschi then points out that she is straight-up lying. SlimVirgin then amends her statement saying that she may have participated in a "technical" discussion and that this was the "extent" of her involvement. Krimpet points out that this is also a lie .

I'll assert plainly here that SlimVirgin has an established record of having problems with the truth and others know this. Doc Glasgow just pointed out another incident of lying by her in a chat room discussion you recently participated in. This is why it damages your reputation to support "these people". As obvious as these issues are, I wonder how you couldn't be aware of them. Cla68 (talk) 02:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla68, this is really important, so I am bolding it. Do you acknowledge the confusion here? SlimVirgin did not lie at all here as far as I can see, and you owe her an apology on this point. She talked about the wpinvestigations mailing list, which she did not at all or only barely participated in, not about the cyberstalking list, where she was and is a very active participant. Please acknowledge your mistake.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right, she was talking about the investigations list, so I apologize to SlimVirgin for stating that she was talking about the Cyberstalking list. But, Moreschi did catch her in a lie about the extent of her involvement in the investigations list and Krimpet stated that SlimVirgin hasn't been truthful about what really went on on the Cyberstalking list, which that link to Allison's page confirms. Someone has pointed out to me that there have probably been other victims of harrassment on Misplaced Pages that didn't know about that list that would have been interested in participating but couldn't, because it wasn't advertised anywhere. If the list was used for victims of harrassment, it seems that it was only open to a select few of them. And it also appears that it was used for other purposes, such as Durova's sleuthing seminars and other vitriol against good faith editors. Cla68 (talk) 03:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin would most likely agree with Alison's summary. There is no question that the list has been noisy and at times a place for people to vent steam. That's very far from the characterization you have been making of a secret list for the purpose of cabalism or whatever. Durova posted only that one message there of the "cybersleuthing seminar type" and I believe it got no response at all. It's a mailing list. You say that Moreschi "did catch her in a lie"... that is a very strong statement, can you point me to the proof of it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Remember the line from Durova's email, "They don't know that this list exists"? Krimpet's statement supports that the list was used for much more than talking about harrassment. Now, the second link I provided above shows that SlimVirgin had to amend her first statement from "one post" to "eight times" to the investigations list. Perhaps not a big lie, but a lie. Anyway, are you asking for more evidence that she has ever lied? Cla68 (talk) 04:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You may want to review WP:NPA. Why do you assume that "one post" versus "eight times" constitutes a lie, rather than an error. I was not and am not a member of the investigations list, but I can easily imagine it being quite easy to misremember the exact participation on a list. I am happy to let SlimVirgin answer for herself, but on the other hand, I can hardly blame her if she just wants to ignore you... the assumption of bad faith and unwillingness to engage her in a sincere dialog in an attempt to understand strikes me as something you might want to drop. Remember, assumption of bad faith is exactly what got Durova going down the wrong path. Don't follow.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean this sarcastically, but did I answer your original question? Cla68 (talk) 03:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Not really, no. It seems that you are continuing to assume bad faith in a completely unfair way. Do you have any additional factual questions? It might help you to understand how far off track you have gotten here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla, your attack on SV is a clear violation of WP:NPA. Please stop attacking your fellow editors, or you will lose the ability to edit on this site. Thanks, Crum375 (talk) 03:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla, it just isn't reasonable to jump straight to the conclusion that a person is lying. These are the facts, and there's no point in having a discussion unless it's based on facts:

I am a regular participant in the cyberstalking list. I was subscribed to the investigations list on or around November 10 without being asked whether I wanted to be on it (and I unsubscribed on or around November 26). My memory when I wrote to wikiEN-l was that I'd posted to the investigations list once or thereabouts. Then I looked through my e-mail archives and found eight posts I'd forgotten about, where I'd contributed to a thread about headers in e-mails. So I posted an immediate correction to wikiEN-l. Between my first and second post, Moreschi had already implied that I was lying. I didn't see his post at the time because I wasn't subscribed to wikiEN-l, and indeed my own posts were taking some time to arrive because I was having to ask David Gerard to forward them for me. But really, whether it's one post or eight, the point is that I was subscribed for only around 16 days, and I participated every little during that time. In future, please assume bad memory or confusion or misunderstanding when you see inconsistencies, at least to begin with, instead of immediately assuming that a person is lying. As for your other claim, I do not have "an established record of having problems with the truth": that really is a serious and unjustified slur. Please tell me what Doc Glasgow is supposed to have said so I can respond to it; otherwise, it's left hanging on this page as an attack I can't defend myself against. SlimVirgin 06:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This one really, really bothered me, especially the drama comment. 75.65.91.142 (talk) 23:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The very idea that there were "secret email lists" is absurd. The rest of what follows from that assumption is mistaken.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Why were the lists invitation-only then? I would be interested in knowing about any actual stalking or harrassment going on, because some of the articles I edit are probably embarrassing to some very powerful people and institutions. But I wasn't aware of that forum because it was kept well-hidden, and since I became aware of it a week ago I requested admission and haven't heard anything back. User:Alison, an admin respected enough to be one of the few to recently be entrusted with Checkuser privileges, describes what really went on on that list here , and it exactly describes how that list was characterized in the Register article.

Now, you say the rest is mistaken, but, I could easily find several examples to support my assertion, because I observed them firsthand. Do you want to see them? Cla68 (talk) 02:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Alison's comments do not match what The Register said very much at all. I am happy to explain to you the key differences if you are interested. I would love to have examples to support your assertion, but in the interests of minimizing on-wiki drama, please send them to me in email so I can review it privately.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's the quote from the Register I was referring to, "a rogue editor revealed that the site's top administrators are using a secret insider mailing list to crackdown on perceived threats to their power." Durova's email was actually the evidence that this was occurring on that list (remember she also said, "they don't know that this list exists"), Allison's post confirms that the list was being used to complain about other editors. Now, do you really need more evidence than that? Cla68 (talk) 03:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

First, calling Giano, a widely respected if often difficult editor, a "rogue editor" is nonsense. Durova's email is not evidence for the list being secret, nor evidence for the list being used for a "crackdown on perceived threats to power". Both of those things are just astoundingly false. Durova's email is evidence that Durova wrote something up quite out of character for her and the list, and sent it. Nothing more, nothing else. Of course the list was being used to talk about problem editors, and editors who tend to have a knee jerk reaction in favor of "radical free speech" instead of our traditional policies of removing personal attacks and blocking people who engage in them. And, yes, people who are hurting sometimes say things about other people that are unfair, mistakes are made. None of those potential criticisms of the list in any way support the rampant paranoia of the Register piece.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you state with certainty, that that particular list was never used to canvass support for any issues under discussion anywhere on Misplaced Pages? Cla68 (talk) 04:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I can state with absolute certainty that the cyberstalking list was and is absolutely used to discuss proposals for change to Misplaced Pages in order to deal with the very difficult issue of cyberstalking. This includes people discussing things like possible policy changes, and other people saying that those policy changes are unworkable, or unwise. In short, like every discussion I have ever seen of Wikipedians in any place, for example, private meetups, public mailing lists, public irc channels, private irc channels, coffeeshops, wiki workshops, etc., the list absolutely was used to canvass support for issues under discussion in Misplaced Pages. I can't imagine that anyone could imagine that any discussion could be otherwise.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The list was never a secret. It's just a private list with a closed membership. People who've been victims of cyberstalking or serious harassment because of their participation in Misplaced Pages are invited, as are others who've expressed an interest in finding ways to deal with it. The discussions are often very personal, with victims explaining what happened to them and what the harassment made them feel like. Alison was a member for only a very brief period — from memory, it was just over a week, though I'd have to check that. We go through periods where mostly one thing is discussed, then we change to something else, so you need to have been a member for some time to get an overall picture. The reason for the privacy is so that victims have a safe place to discuss what happened to them. For obvious reasons, no support group with an open membership could offer this. SlimVirgin 02:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Being familiar with the stalking and trolling that eminates from Misplaced Pages Review, I must say that I am certainly sympathetic to the creation of a private discussion board to counter-act it. That said, I am deeply concerned that we are allowing paranoia to take over the upper echelons of the Misplaced Pages Community. Some of the arguments I have seen concerning BADSITES and related matters coming from respected, established admins (and even ArbCom members) are honestly quite unbelievable. And now this. Frankly, it seems that Giano called a spade a spade and was punished becuase of it. The fact that the establishment (including Jimbo) came down on him so harshly unfortunately leaves egg on the face of the entire Misplaced Pages project. Of course what's done is done, and it seems most everyone is in agreement that the whole thing was an over-reaction and blown out of proportion. The only thing we can do now is ask how do we keep this rampant paranoia from getting out of hand? Clearly much of it is justified, but that doesn't change the fact that it is hurting Misplaced Pages. Kaldari (talk) 03:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of the email list was not about Misplaced Pages Review, nor about "counter-acting" it. The purpose of the email list was to allow cyberstalking victims a safe place with my support to talk about their pain, to talk about what happened to them, and to begin to think about how Misplaced Pages might change for the better. Of course some of that discussion would naturally mention WR and also mention people who have been supportive of the "radical free speech" culture that allows bad behavior to thrive. There is nothing paranoid about that. I have never supported WP:BADSITES as it was written and rejected, and indeed said so publicly. But we do need to grapple in a mature way with the serious issue of people making hurtful attacks off-site that would get people banned on-site. Giano got in trouble with a lot of people because he made a huge drama out of something that need not have been a drama. Rather than violating a basic rule of civility by posting a private email publicly, he could have forwarded it to the ArbCom and/or me for review. And if we refused to do anything about it, or if there was any kind of "coverup" of Durova's errors, then and ONLY THEN, he might be justified in going public as a "whistleblower". But as it is, he should not be thought of as a brave whistleblower in the face of repression and paranoia, but rather as someone who made a pretty serious error of judgment in what was already a difficult situation. (A bad block, an admin apologizing, ArbCom investigating, and people freaking out.)

The first step in eliminating rampant paranoia, I think, is to step back and take a look at where the paranoia really lies. We have all this stuff about "secret mailing lists", facts be damned. We have this idea that some secret top cabal is orchestrating whatever whatever. When what we really have is a lot of people freaking out over routine errors that could be solved with a bit of good faith and loving discussion. I really strongly support that people should relax and get over the paranoia driven by various trolling conspiracy theories...--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

When Giano posted the email ArbCom wasn't, to anyone's knowledge, doing anything at all, let alone "investigating". The only action to that point which carried any vestige of authority was your statement that "a 75 minute block...is hardly worth all that drama." Far from indicating that our community leadership is attending to the problem you basically indicated that you felt the problem was solved and that we should stop talking about it. Of course you are welcome to have an personal opinion on the issue, but I think many people regarded your statement as dismissive of any concerns that the situation wasn't really resolved. The point is, I think you need to be more careful about making "pronouncements from on high" in your leadership role. Because for you to say that Giano should have brought the issue to you for review, when you had already made a prominent statement downplaying the seriousness of the issue, strikes me as a bit unreasonable: you can't expect people to see you as a neutral party when you've already taken a position. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Harassment can be serious business; real-life stalking always is. While I support the idea of Misplaced Pages developing an official program for victims of Misplaced Pages-related harassment and cyberstalking (which I can attest personally does occur), I am concerned that Misplaced Pages needs to know its limits in this matter. Some sympathy and practical assistance is at the top of the list. Consideration needs to be given to whether or not the Foundation will release the collected information on the alleged harasser/stalker to police at the request of the victim; as the policy is a Foundation one, there may be value in discussing a comprehensive response process with other projects.

I will also add that I am somewhat concerned that, while the members of this group include individuals who have experienced stalking and real-life harassment, it is unlikely that any of them have any training in the skills required to assist victims most effectively. Support groups are good, but they are usually led by professionals or at minimum well trained volunteers. Risker (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your concern, and it is important to understand that this was an ad hoc spontaneous email group formed by a group of people who were hurting. A big part of what came out of it was exactly what you are saying: we contacted a professional and got some first advice, we formed a task force led by a psychologist to work on proposals, etc. This is an ongoing work in progress of course. And it is not being helped, sadly, by the rampant paranoia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, geez, Jimbo...thanks for telling us NOW. There was no way that this could have been mentioned on-wiki any earlier? You make it sound as though this planning has been going on for months. Instead of giving people hope and showing that this was an identified problem that was being taken seriously, the silence has been deafening. Risker (talk) 04:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I have talked about it openly for a long time. I am not sure what piece of what I just said was new for you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Where exactly have you said on-wiki that you/the Foundation were establishing a professionally developed program to address Misplaced Pages-related harassment and stalking? Was there something from the Foundation Board that got posted there and never disseminated to Wikipedians? Something in the Signpost? And irrespective of how this information was or was not disseminated to the community, what does this program entail - big picture, I understand that details may not be finalized. Risker (talk) 04:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't even say that now, I am sorry if this is unclear. I think we will move in that direction in the near future, but for now, there is just what I said above... I would consider this the first step in a process. What does the program entail? No clue, details are not even really started, much less finalized. This is not a cabal list that is going to hand down policy to us out of the blue, this is a discussion group to get ideas. Anyone can start a similar group, or join any of the multiple places that similar discussions are being carried out everywhere on the wiki. :-) We can start talking about proposals right here if you like.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

As pointed out on the[REDACTED] mail list by David G, http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/structurelessness.html has some useful insights into where the Misplaced Pages community has been and clues about where it should go. "Any group of people of whatever nature coming together for any length of time, for any purpose, will inevitably structure itself in some fashion. 'structurelessness' does not prevent the formation of informal structures, but only formal ones. The rules of how decisions are made are known only to a few and awareness of power is curtailed by those who know the rules, as long as the structure of the group is informal. Those who do not know the rules and are not chosen for initiation must remain in confusion, or suffer from paranoid delusions that something is happening of which they are not quite aware. It is this informal structure, particularly in unstructured groups, which forms the basis for elites. Elites are not conspiracies. Seldom does a small group of people get together and try to take over a larger group for its own ends. Elites are nothing more and nothing less than a group of friends who also happen to participate in the same political activities. In a structured group, two or more such friendship networks usually compete with each other for formal power. This is often the healthiest situation. The other members are in a position to arbitrate between the two competitors for power and thus are able to make demands of the group to whom they give their temporary allegiance. there are some principles we can keep in mind that are essential to democratic structuring and are politically effective also: 1 Delegation of specific authority to specific individuals for specific tasks by democratic procedures. 2 Requiring all those to whom authority has been delegated to be responsible to all those who selected them. 3 Distribution of authority among as many people as is reasonably possible. 4 Rotation of tasks among individuals. 5 Allocation of tasks along rational criteria. 6 Diffusion of information to everyone as frequently as possible. 7 Equal access to resources needed by the group. When these principles are applied, they ensure that whatever structures are developed by different movement groups will be controlled by and be responsible to the group. The group of people in positions of authority will be diffuse, flexible, open and temporary. They will not be in such an easy position to institutionalise their power because ultimate decisions will be made by the group at large. The group will have the power to determine who shall exercise authority within it." WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Clarification Since Cla has said that I "pointed out" SlimVirgin was lying, I'd like to be clear. I did not, and do not, accuse anyone of lying, and I rather resent being misrepresented. Slim made accusations about arbcom members leaking. I have no idea whether they are true or not. My comlaint, which Slim has graciously accepted, is that she should not have publicly implied that JamesF leaked, and that she disbelieved his assurances, without providing evidence. She should have discussed the matter privately with James and if dissatisfied gone to Jimbo, Arbcom, of the foundation. People should not make unsubstantiated allegation. And people should not accuse others of lying, or of calling people liars. Some of my own talk has been careless and open to misunderstanding, and for that I apologise to all parties. But, again, I have no reason to believe that Slim is lying.--Doc 09:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Your words were, "jwales: you really /should/ review this vile thread. In which JamesF is accused of being a liar by slimvirgin. The thread is blatantly libellous and involves senior wikipedians. But make up your own mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_tal...little_footnote". Now, I interpreted the word "libel" as lying. I just looked it up the word libel, and it doesn't quite mean lying, although it's close . So, I apologize for mischaracterizing your remarks and will be more careful in future. Cla68 (talk) 12:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. My words on IRC were fastly typed and badly phrased - sorry. It's best not to use IRC transcripts to understand what someone is saying - you could have asked me. What I meant to say is that very serious allegations were being made, which *if* untrue could amount to defamation. The "vileness" was in the heated tempers and inappropriate remarks being made by a number of users in that thread. That's what I did say on the talk page of the thread in question. Perhaps, next time ask me for clarification. Sorry if my words caused false impression - I offer an apology to you and to SlimVirgin. My punishment for loose talk will be a self-imposed ban from #wikipedia.--Doc 13:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

calling Giano, a widely respected if often difficult editor, a "rogue editor" is nonsense. No more nonsensical than calling him a troll . Here's another recent example of this troll at work .--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 12:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Praise for Jimbo Wales

Although I tend to consider Durova's email more ill-considered than Mr Wales seems to consider it (which does not mean I feel there should be any greater consequences for Durova than have already unfolded), I feel compelled to write that I believe all of Jimbo's recent actions are entirely admirable, thoughtful, and wise. There is no doubt in my mind that the role he is playing is the right one, and that attempts to remove or curb that role will not benefit Misplaced Pages. In my opinion it is quite remarkable that there is somebody so judicious at the head of this project, and I hope that he intends to continue playing the role that he does at present. If anything, that role should be expanded, and his wish to protect living people from their biographical entries enforced more tightly. Thanks Jimbo. BCST2001 (talk) 23:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. Good leadership is rare. Jimbo is the leader of these various projects, and everyone else should follow his vision, or feel free to start their own projects. It's not like the software and content are all not free to use by all. I am embarrassed by the constant disrespect that is shoveled on Jimbo on a daily basis. If people think they can do better, then prove it, and do it. - Crockspot (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

And I have to say I'm embarrassed by the constant abject flattery that's heaped on Jimbo on a daily basis. When Jimbo comes to, say, the en-admins IRC channel to ask for feedback and advice, as he did the other day, what kind of use do you think, say "admirable, thoughtful, and wise... quite remarkable that there is somebody so judicious" etc etc is to him then? Seriously? Bishonen | talk 00:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC).

I'm not sure who you are replying to, as my post contains no abject flattery, other than to imply that he gives good leadership. So may we expect to see a Bishowiki opening up soon? I have chosen to work on another project, not because of Jimbo's vision, but because of the refusal of much of the community to follow that vision. The leader of my new project does things a little differently, so rather than argue with him about it, I am adjusting and following, like a good team member should. - Crockspot (talk) 00:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. BCST2001 (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I hope that Jimbo also talks with serious critics, such as Seth Finkelstein. More can be learned from critics than adoring fans. - Jehochman 00:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I wish Jimbo would take my analyses seriously, but I fear there's just an unbridgeable gulf. If nothing else, money changes everything. And I have to be careful what I write on-wiki. Though I believe I try to be honest and fair (recognizing that of course almost everyone thingk of themselves as honest and fair), it's been made very clear to me that being personally banished as a troll is well within the realm of possibility. I suspect I only survive better than other critics because, as someone else put it a while back, "if he didn't speak fluent geek (with a decided received high USENET tone), most of wikipedians wouldn't give him the time of day" -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 02:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Critics? Flattery? Sheesh. How about discussions among equals, where dissent is measured not in absolutes and agreement is always conditional? Isn't that actually what life is like? Neither the American myth of the CEO nor the slavish slavering over a Great Man nor the serf calling out for a departed master is becoming to a project that set out to prove that the many are always superior to the one, that all men are created equal (and behave less so). Geogre (talk) 01:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"But gushing supplicants debase the higher purpose of this place..." sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 03:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

My assessment is that Mr Wales has been wrongly criticized for his recent decisions, and my observation is that these decisions are correct and wise. Calling that assessment and that observation "abject flattery" or "gushing supplication" seems to me to be rather forced and melodramatic. BCST2001 (talk) 04:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You offer an assessment and an observation, but no analysis. Which decision did you like best? What was the most wise? You said "all" of them, do you really think so? How about accusing Giano of "trolling" and being a "drama monger", with a warning that he's already on borrowed time], all in the runup to Giano's ArbCom "election"? I think the only thing he said about Durova was that we need to love each other and chill.

Giano helped illuminate an incident that a lot of us think needed it, and his reward is a poisoned well. He was also made the star attraction at the misnamed Durova RfA. There are still unanswered questions, and now the press has its nose wet, and you can't just ban them. In retrospect, does this all seem like the optimal strategy to you? Admirably optimal?

My earlier quote wasn't addressed to you specifically, but to the general culture of demural and opacity that I and others dislike. If anything, it was melopoetic. sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 08:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The decisions I was referring to were those which Jimbo mentioned here. In relation to Giano, I feel your comments are, again, rather hyperbolic. The essence of any "decision" Jimbo took about Giano would seem to be to take no action. And, again, a good decision. BCST2001 (talk) 10:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I

Disgusting

I would like to say that, as an educator, I find your recent comment which states that "it's a bad educator that bans their students from reading Misplaced Pages" is ignorant, rude, and disrespectful of people who actually know how to teach and have dedicated their lives to doing so. You may revel in amateurism, but professionals can see that this site is a terrible education resource. 1.33% of the Misplaced Pages is tagged for cleanup alone. It may be interesting as a general trivia site, but it is not something I would permit my students to learn from, whether you call me a 'bad educator' or no. 86.142.48.123 (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was going to write something here but I was stuck in a meeting this morning for 3 hours *groan* I, too, have to disagree with your statement that Misplaced Pages should be accepted for schoolwork. You even included the caveat that only articles that are well-cited should be used. What teacher is going to want to analyze every Misplaced Pages article cited to see if it is acceptable for use? Also, many (if not all) elementary, middle or even high school students would not be able to determine if an article overall has good citations or not. Besides, it is generally accepted that terciary sources are not academically acceptable. I teach my students to use encyclopedias, Misplaced Pages included, only to begin their research when they have no clue about the topic. Also, there is nothing wrong with chaining to the sources that many entries cite like newspaper articles, books etc but use the information from the original... not the encyclopedia. I write you this as one who uses Misplaced Pages extensively (see my user page and WP:SUP) for my writing and Advanced EFL classes. Don't throw down the gauntlet to educators... you get the reaction like the one above. However, keep pushing to make Misplaced Pages better. You are right that students do use it, even if prohibited. Plus, it is proving to be a really excellent way to get students to write and research.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The BBC article is entirely misleading about my remarks. My opinion on the proper use of Misplaced Pages in the educational environment has not changed one bit. I believe that our anonymous teacher, above, would respond as the audience did: strong applause. The key, of course, is to hear what I actually said, rather than this misreporting. I have asked the BBC to run a correction.

I believe that educators whose entire response to Misplaced Pages is to tell students not to look at it are in fact bad educators. Good teachers will understand that the right approach is to teach students about the weaknessess - and strengths - of Misplaced Pages. And to caution them that Misplaced Pages is not an acceptable source for an academic citation, any more than Britannica is. Thelmadatter, I agree absolutely with your remarks about the use of Misplaced Pages in the classroom, and based on reading what you have said, I suspect we would have to work really hard in a conversation to find any differences in our opinions at all on these matters.  :-) So, I plead innocent.--Jimbo Wales 19:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgusting? No way. It was a good BBC article and good to see you yet again promoting[REDACTED] and this time in Old Blighty. Would that I had access to such a vast body of knowledge when I was a teenager and of course those of today should be encouraged to use it. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

could you tell us what you really did say?Thelmadatter (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a video or audio anywhere, but I said basically the same things that I always say. If you have seen any of my speeches where I address these questions, well, I said what I always say. (Basically, teachers can use[REDACTED] as a teaching opportunity to help students better assess information sources. Misplaced Pages has strengths and weaknesses. An outright ban is silly... you can tell students not to listen to rock and roll music, too. But accepting[REDACTED] as a citable source is not really right either.)--Jimbo Wales 22:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree Misplaced Pages has some flaws like anything else, BUT it is fairly new and getting better every single day. I would strongly argue that the educational system has so many more flaws, and it has had over a 100 years to reform itself. As an author, I can state that I have probably learned double the amount of information on wiki than I did in school. Our schools have ancient textbooks which have become antiquated, wiki has thousands of editors that keep everything up to the minute, from new science advances to news updates. Once they perfect all the flows in the wiki system, I strongly believe the world will embrace it as the new system for learning and education. I quote the great Thomas Edison who I believe was the greatest genius of all time: "Our schools are not teaching students to think. It is astonishing how many young people have difficulty in putting their brains definitely and systematically to work." I completely agree with Edison. In the 21st century, not much has changed with the school system, it is almost as it was one hundred years ago (that is disgusting)! I believe wiki is a system that encourages students to think and participate in history, science, and current events. Thank you Jimbo for starting Misplaced Pages!--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 08:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

One of my teachers frequently cites Misplaced Pages. He first gives the page a read over, then tells us to look at the specific article. He thinks it's a valuable resource. I agree with him. I learned a lot from Misplaced Pages on my Software Engineering course, and I did well on an essay (something I don't do much of on my course) thanks to Misplaced Pages. --Deskana (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that any good teacher should say "do read Misplaced Pages but don't trust Misplaced Pages - use it as a starting point". Any reference to Misplaced Pages as a resource necessarily has to include the need to look at the page history, the article talk, and the internal and external links. The article the student sees is only a node on a temporal trajectory (can I trademark that?). My first contribution to en:wikipedia (as an IP) was following up on an argument in a pub about orbital mechanics. Don't try this at home kids! :) Geostationary orbit said 9 miles above the surface of the Earth and I looked at it 17 times, got my CRC Handbook out, checked two websites, I knew it was obviously wrong, I couldn't just walk away, but I had to be sure that "Undo" was going to make things right. So at any given time, there are errors and I could have left that one - and if people in any way learn to rely on Misplaced Pages, well, don't shoot your mouth off in your local pub based on it and for God's sake don't build any bridges or railways. I hope Jimbo would agree that the key is to teach how to use Misplaced Pages, it is not the answer, it's the way to find the answer. Franamax (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And there's the tradeoff between accuracy and accessability. If you use anything on the internet which is free, you usually have just the same problem as with Misplaced Pages (PUBMED govt subsidized medical references being a major exception). And what are the chances you're going to spend the afternoon at the local library pulling tomes off shelves to get something you really know you can trust? Usually you don't need to trust anything that much. It's NOT the airplane or bridge you're building-- if you do that for living, somebody has bought you refs that you damn well CAN trust. So what do you use Misplaced Pages for? Somebody's doc sends them for a PET scan and they and you want to know what that is. In 10 min with a computer or even the right cell phone, you can find out more about PET scans than the average MD knew 10 years ago. And most of what's in Misplaced Pages is accurate, or if it is not, it's obvious that it's been messed with, because 99.999% of vandals are fools and all they can do is delete stuff or add scatology. Changing a decimal in an orbital calculation is actually what you very seldom find. SBHarris 21:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As I have said many times, while WP is not itself a reliable source (you never know when the page you load will say POOP), it is an excellent and possibly unparalleled resource for finding reliable sources on almost any topic. That is why some of us have worked hard to make the footnoted cites as complete as possible, so that any kid in a library can go find those sources. - Crockspot (talk) 22:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Stco23

This there any way to put two images into one because Collectonian is always bugging me about only one image deserve to be on one article and not two, three, or four images. I think Collectonian is going to far about this image issue. Can you please help me because I am getting very upset about this issue and I want to finish it. Bye.--Stco23 (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you Google for some image software, there is plenty about with which one can do many things, but check to make sure you are not breaking copyright before uploading here. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, I have been a user for 2 years now and Collectonian put something on the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents page about me and is there a way to say something bad about someone and then change your mind by saying something else on[REDACTED] or can I put that and have to say the right thing instead. I am different for everyone else and you can see that in my user page. I think she doesn't like the way I act. I was uncivil to her a couple of times before because I tried to be nice, but she only ends up ruining it and I get upset. I put two images into one to make her happy, but she still reported me about my conduct. Is there any other way to talk to her or do I have to leave her alone. I know the rules now about images because I got blocked at one time for harassing people and I looked up the rules to find out. I don't think I can become an adminstor now because I got blocked before. I don't want to be blocked again. I do think that some of the things she does is wrong, but I don't know if you think they are right or not. I am trying to be a good editor, but I don't think I can be. I know this a encyclopia site and not a site that you can put many images on one article. I think it would be best if I backed off[REDACTED] for a while and just look at articles and not edit them. I try my best, but I don't think my best is good enough. Should I quit or should I still edit on wikipedia. Please let me know on my talk page. Thank You.--Stco23 (talk) 21:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't need help now, I think it has been settled between Collectonian and me. You don't need to answer my question now. I just wanted you to help that's all. Thanks anyway. I am going to bed now. Good night.--Stco23 (talk) 08:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi! How to desysop an admin in the German section of the[REDACTED] who misused his sysop-status and broke even more rules?

Hi!
As I didn'T find the appropriate section neither in the German nro the English section of Misplaced Pages.org though it is a topic that should be decided quickly, I just summon up some key facts about what happened.
The admin broke rules.
The admin used an arrogant, inappropriate reasoning for deleting parts of an article.
The admin was involed in deleting these parts and protecting the page in a changed status.
The cause for changing the article was not only a legal threat, but actually an user who comlained about the article and additionally filed an action very fast.
The admin, though he addressed an user in an answer on the discussion-page of that article as the complainant, didn'T block or delete that user as far as I know.
That entry which was answered by the admin did neither have an IP-adress or the user name: Unusual for my knowledge is, that even in the old versions of the discussion-page no IP-adress or user-name could be found, but only in the history-overview the user was to be seen. In the contributions-page of that user that entry could then be found.
The admin twice deleted entries of the discussion-page, that I had written as answers to entries from this admin(!), though they were neither intended nor unintended insulting. (That deletion of my entries to the discussion page is what really bothers me, followed by the next point.)
After the second deletion the admin blocked my IP-address.
As reason for blocking he stated that I would have written that I "don't want to write anymore" on wikipedia: This citation is a lie! I *never* wrote *that*!
The blocking must not have been done by that admin as he was involved in the discussion: From an old desysop-decision I know that this alone is enough of a reason to desysop that admin. (If I remember right it was even you yourself who wrote, that such in inaceptable.)

My question: How could I help you and[REDACTED] to prevent this admin of further breaking and bending the[REDACTED] rules? Please answer here!

With best regards 212.23.103.75 (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello again! After I informed the admin that I will initiate an Arbitration to Desysop him, he removed that entry and the second entry that he deleted and I put back again. That way of course it will be more difficult to find more people who were blocked by him and/or pointed out how and when he broke rules alone on that discussion page and the related article.
After that within only hours he moved links on his userpage that pointed to former complaints against him to him being desysoped from top of his page to a not so prominent place. Actually maybe because only of that moving of the links I only have become aware of that links. (So that really backfire. I now know by these same links where to find the right page on the German wikipedia-section, to start a movment to desysop him.) These arbitrations were caused by rule-breaking blocks performed by the admin. One complainant said: 'This admin is known to use his admin-privileges to try to make other users who are in discussion with *him* "mundtot"'. (mundtot: to silence) The admin on the same page wrote, he deliberatly considered that his actions could result in him being desysoped, but he would do it again in the same situation.
As you maybe know, the situation in the German section of[REDACTED] is far worse regarding the cameraderia of the admins, supporting each other whatever topic and action is discussed or decided.
After seeing the old movements to desysop him, and now seeing him rule-breaking by blocking and deleting entries on discussion pages, I really wonder if you, Mr Wales, really could stood by watching. With best regard, and still hoping for an answer from you 212.23.103.85 (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello again! I could understand that you don't want to comment on a topic that is in any way related to the filed suit i mentioned above.
But why don'T you show interest that it seems the user who filed the suit was not banned or blocked? With best regards 212.23.103.5 (talk) 17:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Apparently this relates to this Agathoclea (talk) 22:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

A message from a disillusioned Wiipedian.

The Politics of Misplaced Pages

When I discovered Misplaced Pages a few years ago, I almost immediately become enthralled. I got so into it after a while that I decided to "be bold" and contribute.

Over the course of the past year I've become rather discouraged as I've discovered that just like any big corporation, Misplaced Pages has it's share of "bigwig Pinheads" as well.

Common sense is thrown out the window here far to often.

Unless you happen to "have the right connections", then being a Wikipeian can't amount to much more than correcting spelling errors and punctuation.

Start a new article on what common sense dictates should, be a "notable" subject and the wikiclique will deem it "not notable" (while not applying the same standards to other similar articles). I guess it's about who you know. :(

After that, your optons are arbitration. And you know what? Most people have better things to do with their lives than jump through (what seem to any rational person to be) needlessly unnecessary "hoops" to get anything corrected here.

And if all this weren't bad enough, I come across this and this today.

What is wrong with this place? I thought Misplaced Pages was supposed to be "open"? --angrykeyboarder (a/k/a:Scott) (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, please note that this is further evidence that others have noticed some of the same issues that I've noticed. Have you reached out to this edtor to ask him why he/she feels this way? Perhaps you, or somebody with some authority and a good faith reason to be here, should. Cla68 (talk) 13:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It looks like part of why he feels this way is that he read the news stories that you contributed to which spread this nonsense about "secret mailing lists" and similar stuff. The other thing he seems upset about is an AfD for "zorpia". I will try to find the time to look that up but the google link he gives does not seem very helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, how can you call the "secret mailing list" stuff "nonsense" when you yourself admonished Giano for posting private emails from it on the wiki? If the "secret mailing list" wasn't a secret mailing list (judging by your quotes around the term), then since those e-mails were licenced under the GDFL (including the ability to "copy and distribute the Document in any medium, either commercially or noncommercially"), distributing them should have been no problem. If, however, there e-mails were supposed to have been kept private, then referring to it as "nonsense about 'secret mailing lists'" can't be accurate, right? Firsfron of Ronchester 21:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

"Secret" and "private" mean completely different things. And the list is not GFDL licensed. So I really do not understand your comment at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, even a cursorial search for the definition of secret turns up "secret - not open or public; kept private or not revealed", "secret - not expressed; "secret (or private) thoughts", etc. The words "secret" and "private" don't entirely have completely different meanings: there's a lot of overlap. terms of use state "Wikia's content is made freely accessible for informational or entertainment purposes to anyone with a connection to the World Wide Web." and "All Wikia are available under the GNU Free Documentation License." The list even contains the GNU logo at the bottom of the page. While I can appreciate that you don't feel the content is licensed, it's not at all clear that that is the case, and could use some rewording on the Wikia Terms of Use page. At the very least, the Gnu logo on the bottom of the page should absolutely be removed, because it is the logo of the GDFL. Yours, Firsfron of Ronchester 14:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The GNU logo is part of the default installation of the mailing list software, and it is not the logo of the GFDL. The mailing lists are not GFDL. (Indeed, not all Wikia are GFDL, so I will ask someone to correct that. Some are under various Creative Commons licenses.) If you don't know the difference between "secret" and "private" I really don't know what to tell you. Here are a couple of sample sentences to help you. "There are many private clubs in New York, but only some of them are secret." "My son attends a private school in New York, you can look it up on the web if you want to know more about it." --Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that you have corrected the Wikia Terms of Use page, Jimbo. That makes it a bit clearer. Misplaced Pages's article on the GNU Free Documentation Licence has shown the GNU logo on the page for the past three years. I understand there is a difference between the GNU and GFDL, but even the official GFDL text contains the logo. Misplaced Pages tags which reference the license also use the GNU logo. As far as "secret" vs. "private" goes, I've already linked above to the definitions. There clearly is a difference between a private school and a secret school. Not so much when we're talking about secrets on a mailing list, though: it's all about context, Jimbo. Best wishes and happy editing, Firsfron of Ronchester 01:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

		The Special Barnstar
		I herewith award you, Jimbo Wales, the Special barnstar for your contribution to humanity, by creating Misplaced Pages! Thank you--Octavian history (talk) 23:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Citing Misplaced Pages - Comment on your London speech

It's ashame I missed you in London (only heard about it when I read the media report). I would like to comment/ask you about your point that teachers/lecturers should allow pupils/students cite Misplaced Pages. During the time you didn't support the idea, I did. Now, I don't. This has nothing to do with me thinking the opposite of what you do, rather with me understanding more of the Misplaced Pages nature and policy. Of course, in the past I have used -as most students do- Misplaced Pages for essay writing and general studies related research. However, I have never cited it. Instead, I use Misplaced Pages as a starting point, as it introduces the subject at hand in a manner that is easy to understand and because of current policy, Misplaced Pages offers enough sources that will allow me to verify the fact and read more in depth. Do you not believe that citing Misplaced Pages would just be making life easy for lazy students who either don't follow the links or don't want to find the sourced book in the library? And any thing that isn't sourced on Misplaced Pages, we must admit, should not be trusted when it is academically important to anybody. Edit: I read your above comments and agree.

Further, are you considering making a verified version of Misplaced Pages? Would it not be a good idea to fork Misplaced Pages into a stable version instead of letting other independent and often commercial products do this? I believe this would - considering the amount of people involved here at the moment - a relatively simple task.

I hope to hear from you -and others- on my comment soon, all the best,Poeloq (talk) 02:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Menudo

Sure, the item has been on my watchlist for some time and the article has been under my attention since the AN/I thread and subsecuent protection. I am under the impression that this situation may be related to the creation of a new version of Menudo, maybe as some kind of negative propaganda towards the group since the page's webmaster has claimed that he promoted the original version of the group once in his now deleted article. - Caribbean~H.Q. 17:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think it is something in that general area. The former participants in that battle all apparently have some kind of legal dispute with each other. In any event, none of them should be editing the articles in question, that's for sure.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Layout

Dear Jimbo, I can use the layout of its profile in this Misplaced Pages to place it in my page of profile of user of the Misplaced Pages in Portuguese, of which I am part? Forgives me the bad translation.. :) ONE I hug. I wait its reply,

FERNANDO  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.171.182.247 (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Fernado, to answer your question: Yes, you can! All userpages must be licensed under the GFDL, which means you are free to use anything you see! For more information: Misplaced Pages:Userpage#Ownership_and_editing_of_pages_in_the_user_space Poeloq (talk) 03:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Question about Merkey

I have no clue whether or not I'm stepping into a landmine here...

I'm a brand new admin and in trying to clean up pages that have been "semi" protected, I ran across Jeff V. Merkey. From what I can tell, there seem to have been several bouts of COI, BLP, harassment, etc around the article. But most if not all of that seems to have happened last year (late 2006), so I was wondering if the page should still be protected, or if it can be unprotected. Since you protected it back in Oct. 2006, I bring it to you to decide :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend keeping it semi-protected for now. It could be unprotected at some point in the future.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikia is a completely separate organization

Jimbo, your User page says "Wikia is a completely separate organization." But there's a page on Wikia that says "Wikia, Inc. and The Wikimedia Foundation are independent companies, though there are some relationships between them, as described below." Is your definition of the word "completely" flexible in some way? If so, please elaborate. -- ZD Netman (talk) 04:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There was an extensive discussion about this here a while ago. Hut 8.5 21:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Completely separate companies often have relationships with each other. For example, Steve Jobs is on the board of both Disney and Apple. Presumably, Disney buys some Apple Computers. And I believe that Apple sells some Disney movies on iTunes. Nevertheless, Disney and Apple are completely separate companies. I should think this is obvious.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A small group can control a large group

I've edited WP for a while, and I've noticed that small, dedicated groups of editors can control large groups of less dedicated editors. Is this how it should be? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 11:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

In general, it is a good thing, yes. In cases where the small, dedicated group is a group of serious Wikipedians who care about quality and neutrality, it is a great thing indeed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo's edits

Got no time to do this myself, but one of Jimbo's edits to the talk page seems to have inadvertantly erased someone else's edits. Can someone bring them back? — Ravikiran (talk)` —Preceding comment was added at 13:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. Hell, I never thought I'd be reverting Jimbo, but it seems like an honest mistake since Jimbo didn't leave a message about it and there was nothing particularly offensive in what got deleted. - Chardish (talk) 20:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Good call.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar from Shankbone

		The Real Life Barnstar
		For the work you do in keeping a communal feel on Misplaced Pages, and for your recent support and help with my pending Wiki trip to Israel. David Shankbone 21:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

New Misplaced Pages User

Hello, I am Marianian, a user of one of the Wikimedia projects, NSWiki. It is nice to see you on somewhat a very chilly day here in Britain. How are you doing today?

See you later,

--Marianian (talk) 19:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Fund raising header and coordinates in en.Misplaced Pages - a major problem

I can understand the need to use a fundraising header from time to time; but I can not understand why it can not be created in such a way as to display properly on pages that use the coordiates template in en.Misplaced Pages. I realize that the problem is the absolute location of the coordinate entry, but why no one with the power to do something about it is willing to invested in the programing costs to fix the problem escapes me. The following page is a good example of the problem which displays differently dependant upon that status of the fund raising header (hidden or fully displayed) both create problems. http://en.wikipedia.org/St._Joseph%27s_Catholic_School_%28Hamilton%2C_New_Zealand%29# Note: the smaller the window the worse the problem becomes.

Also see the discussion related to the issue in greater detail at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#Problem_with_the_position_of_coordinates_with_fund_raising_header

Also posted at http://meta.wikimedia.org/Talk:Fundraising_2007/Archive2#Conflict_with_fundrasing_header_and_coordinates

These document some of my attempts to address the problem over the past 40 days

Would you be willing to forward this to someone with the tallent to fix the problem? Dbiel 04:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

A Respectful Challenge to Jimbo Wales

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain

Jimbo & Wikipedians:

You inhabit one reality. I will posit an alternative reality.

Imagine a world where a massive financial crime is ruining our market. Imagine that the past head of the SEC, various economists and finance professors, journalists at financial publications such as Bloomberg, and now even the current head of the SEC, have confirmed that this problem is real.

Imagine also that the crooks perpetrating the crime have a shill whom they unleash upon Misplaced Pages to doctor certain pages to reflect only half-truths and negatives to keep the cover-up in place, to run an attack site smearing anyone who tries to reveal the truth.

Into this world steps Judd Bagley who, through technical knowledge and patience, discovers how they are running the cover-up. He posts his results to Misplaced Pages, but his posts are expunged and he is banned. He posts them on his own site, but any discussion of his site (even its name) become a Wikipedian thought-crime under the Orwellian moniker of "attack site." Ironically, they accuse him of running a smear campaign, apparently hoping that none will check for themselves and see he has written well-documented exposes of their smear campaigns.

In addition, imagine that an investigative journalist gets interested, reviews the evidence, and writes a story connecting the dots. His story gets expunged within Misplaced Pages, the publication for which he writes (TheRegister.com) gets banned, and all concerned pages are locked down so no evidence of these other points of view exist. Does this sound like people committed to free discourse in a market-place of ideas ruled by "the wisdom of crowds"? Does it sound like "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit"? Or does it sound like North Korea?

I respectfully assert, Wikipedians, that your entire worldview is as distorted as those of North Koreans who are never exposed to an idea that contradicts the opinion of Great Leader. You are living in The Matrix, and your reality on the subjects of naked shorting, Overstock, and myself, is fabricated and manipulated by just such arrangements.

You will scoff, I know. One will write more “Patrick Byrne is so nuts” blogs. Perhaps he will add quotes from those blogs to his Wiki-page here (citing his blogs as evidence), and then friends of his will quote it in their stories, then he will cite them, and so on and so forth in a self-referential cover-up. While those pages remain locked under the control of people who stand accused, you Wikipedians cannot tell which reality you inhabit, and you lose your right to count yourselves among those committed to free thought. In addition, if he remains unwilling to let subjects in which he has personal interest be discussed by the same set of rules by which other Misplaced Pages articles exist, Jim Wales will be a hypocrite. In fact, I challenge Jim Wales to expose the following two statements to the normal Misplaced Pages processes, and if he will not, then he should abandon all his claims about the virtues of Misplaced Pages:

a) JzG and Samiharris cannot produce evidence for the claims they make about Judd. Repeating a lie many times does not make it true.

b) Jim claims that “Overstock launched an ‘attack site’ against Weiss..." This is false.

Jim, you always sounded so confident about Misplaced Pages’s virtues, until now.

Respectfully submitted,
Patrick M. Byrne
CEO, Overstock.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.120.86 (talk) 04:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand what you are talking about. How does this relate to The Matrix and North Korea? Thank you. - Jehochman 04:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It is for that very reason we have administrators, bureaucrats, overseers, and the allmighty "revert" button to revert massive amounts of doctored edits; such a method was proved in the past when someone changed every appearance of the word "abortion" to read "murder", our stewards, administrators, and pretty much everyone else started exercising their rollback fingers, and the administrators started exercising their ban buttons. In addition, Jimbo is not the all-powerful person many people see him as (sorry, Jimbo). Should something happen to his account and he would start doing this, or any other account for that matter, a bureaucrats would immediately de-sysop (remove administrator privileges) the offending account, and initiate a block. Misplaced Pages is a encyclopedia anyone can edit with checks and balances, read 48,588,476 registered users of Misplaced Pages who constantly patrol the community. We really are a lot more reliable than you think. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 05:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

And as for "alternate reality", why does it apply to us if it isn't going to happen? It may appply someday when there is a starship named the USS Enterprise orbiting the Earth, but it dosen't now. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 05:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Fastlizard: the mechanisms that generate reliability are absent while those pages remain under the control of a few. All that they are then is an exercise in mass mind control.
"'And as for 'alternate reality', why does it apply to us if it isn't going to happen?" Because maybe it already has and you don't see it yet. PatrickByrne (talk) 05:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)