Talk:Irish Volunteers: Difference between revisions

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	The assertion that "The Irish Volunteers were a paramilitary organization established by Irish Nationalists to oppose the Ulster Volunteer Force" is misleading at best. While they were clearly formed for different (indeed opposite) purposes, MacNeill and the other leaders made it very clear that the Irish Volunteers were formed in repsonse to, rather than in opposition to, the Ulster Volunteers. At no time did any of the original leadership condone any action against the Ulster Volunteers. MacNeill had gone so far as to state that the Ulster Volunteers had threatened war against Britain, and if that were to occur, the Irish Volunteers should join them. the notion of this ever really happening was basically ridiculous, as they would be fighting for opposite reasons, but his point remains clear.		The assertion that "The Irish Volunteers were a paramilitary organization established by Irish Nationalists to oppose the Ulster Volunteer Force" is misleading at best. While they were clearly formed for different (indeed opposite) purposes, MacNeill and the other leaders made it very clear that the Irish Volunteers were formed in repsonse to, rather than in opposition to, the Ulster Volunteers. At no time did any of the original leadership condone any action against the Ulster Volunteers. MacNeill had gone so far as to state that the Ulster Volunteers had threatened war against Britain, and if that were to occur, the Irish Volunteers should join them. the notion of this ever really happening was basically ridiculous, as they would be fighting for opposite reasons, but his point remains clear.
	Also, neither organization was actually illegal, although both had engaged in illegal arms imports. The ban was lifted shortly after the Howth incident, but with the outbreak of war weeks later, clearly importing arms from Germany was not to be allowed. ]		Also, neither organization was actually illegal, although both had engaged in illegal arms imports. The ban was lifted shortly after the Howth incident, but with the outbreak of war weeks later, clearly importing arms from Germany was not to be allowed. ]

			== Role of IRB in formation of IV ==

			I rewrote the [[Irish_Volunteers#Formation\|section dealing with the formation of the IV. In my revised section, I start with the facts and then give room to the interpretation of these. The facts are, as Ferriter outlines, what led to the formation of the Irish Volunteers. It is a FACT that MacNeill's article played the most important role, at least in the public eye, in this. That is what the first paragraph should outline what actually happened. Subsequent paragraphs can then discuss the role the IRB may or may not have played in this. That is good history. What Domer48 is proposing is that one point of view should take precedence over all others. The "rationale" he provides for this is that he has produced "referenced material". Well, so I have I, and from two professional historians to boot. (Eoin Neeson is not a professional historian, but is a former government press secretary).

			I'm not sure whether Domer48 has studied history. I have and I hold a PhD in the subject. To be frankly honest, his behaviour on Misplaced Pages is appalling at times. He has a tendency to take subjective opinions from one book and enforce these as gospel on Misplaced Pages. That is certainly not how professional historians go about their business, and it should not be how Misplaced Pages functions.--] (]) 21:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

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The assertion that "The Irish Volunteers were a paramilitary organization established by Irish Nationalists to oppose the Ulster Volunteer Force" is misleading at best. While they were clearly formed for different (indeed opposite) purposes, MacNeill and the other leaders made it very clear that the Irish Volunteers were formed in repsonse to, rather than in opposition to, the Ulster Volunteers. At no time did any of the original leadership condone any action against the Ulster Volunteers. MacNeill had gone so far as to state that the Ulster Volunteers had threatened war against Britain, and if that were to occur, the Irish Volunteers should join them. the notion of this ever really happening was basically ridiculous, as they would be fighting for opposite reasons, but his point remains clear. Also, neither organization was actually illegal, although both had engaged in illegal arms imports. The ban was lifted shortly after the Howth incident, but with the outbreak of war weeks later, clearly importing arms from Germany was not to be allowed. R. fiend

Role of IRB in formation of IV

I rewrote the [[Irish_Volunteers#Formation|section dealing with the formation of the IV. In my revised section, I start with the facts and then give room to the interpretation of these. The facts are, as Ferriter outlines, what led to the formation of the Irish Volunteers. It is a FACT that MacNeill's article played the most important role, at least in the public eye, in this. That is what the first paragraph should outline what actually happened. Subsequent paragraphs can then discuss the role the IRB may or may not have played in this. That is good history. What Domer48 is proposing is that one point of view should take precedence over all others. The "rationale" he provides for this is that he has produced "referenced material". Well, so I have I, and from two professional historians to boot. (Eoin Neeson is not a professional historian, but is a former government press secretary).

I'm not sure whether Domer48 has studied history. I have and I hold a PhD in the subject. To be frankly honest, his behaviour on Misplaced Pages is appalling at times. He has a tendency to take subjective opinions from one book and enforce these as gospel on Misplaced Pages. That is certainly not how professional historians go about their business, and it should not be how Misplaced Pages functions.--Damac (talk) 21:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

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