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Revision as of 10:06, 24 January 2008 editRoundhouse0 (talk | contribs)6,898 edits →Category:Lists of earls: test case?← Previous edit Revision as of 11:26, 24 January 2008 edit undoMickMacNee (talk | contribs)23,386 edits →Category:Actresses with posthumous workNext edit →
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:::::I would also be interested to know your opinion on whether the relations provided through and the status inferred by ''Category:Posthumous works'' are necessary/trivial in the same way. I don't see how ''The Dark Knight'' can be said to have the 'defining feature' as you want to call categories, of being a posthumous work, if you don't confer the same status to the actor whose death made it a posthumous work. ] (]) 03:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC) :::::I would also be interested to know your opinion on whether the relations provided through and the status inferred by ''Category:Posthumous works'' are necessary/trivial in the same way. I don't see how ''The Dark Knight'' can be said to have the 'defining feature' as you want to call categories, of being a posthumous work, if you don't confer the same status to the actor whose death made it a posthumous work. ] (]) 03:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
::::], we all know. The difference is some of the editors here try to get rid of some of it. It's not terribly helpful to stray from discussing the category in question here. ] 07:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC) ::::], we all know. The difference is some of the editors here try to get rid of some of it. It's not terribly helpful to stray from discussing the category in question here. ] 07:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::Yes, yes, yes, I am well aware of OSE, but then what else is there to use as a point of discussion when people point blank refuse to acknowledge basic requests to explain over and above their obvious POV that this is a trivial association, or expand to give a specific policy exmaple that prevents its creation, further than ], because these procedures are infested by repetive robots who think deletionism adds anything, and resort to the same pointless wall tactics, like OSE. Ironically OSE is the exact argument being used to defend not having this category, how does that work? You can quote examples but I can't?. Categories are not mutually exclusive to lists, they do not have a mythical higher place in WP. The nodding dog wasn't a reference to you, it's a reference to this shitty cabal that just lazily nods along with ''as above'' votes without actually addressing the specifics of the case. This project is completely fucked with these continual railroad deletions of perfectly valid efforts to improve, it's completely non-sensical to think any of these procedures are helping anyone add to the project. Seriously, given some of the ridiculous arguments above do you think anyone watching would ever want to create an article in here? Something was missing, I added it. I notice absolutely no-one in this debate has contributed a single positive comment about how to do this without a category. That should tell you everything about the prevailing attitude in here, and why most of the voters seem to do nothing else but railroad deletions all day. ] (]) 11:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


==== Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1977) ==== ==== Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1977) ====

Revision as of 11:26, 24 January 2008

< January 22 January 24 >

January 23

Category:Litigants in person

Category:Litigants in person - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - non-defining. Otto4711 (talk) 23:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep seems highly defining for these two, and many others who could be added - but not for everyone who has ever done it. Johnbod (talk) 23:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep per Johnbod. Yes, anyone who's ever gone to small claims court or traffic court without a lawyer could be placed in the category, but if it's reserved for individuals for whom this classification is defining, which it should be, I see nothing wrong with the categorization. Snocrates 00:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete random characteristic which could not possibly be defining for enough people to warrant a category. JERRY contribs 01:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Legal people

Suggest merging Category:Legal people to Category:Legal occupations
Nominator's rationale: Merge - category is duplicative and "legal people" is an ambiguous name. Otto4711 (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep but transfer the articles under the main cat, now all apparently about jobs etc, to "Legal occupations". But the other biog sub-cats of course do not belong under "occupations". Johnbod (talk) 23:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete a person who is sued or suing or charged with a crime can by no stretch of the imagination be considered a legal person. OJ Simpson is a football Player, an actor, alot of other things, but by no means a legal person. Everyone who would belong in this cat would better fit on the occupations cat, which is already nicely subcatted. JERRY contribs 01:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - Okay, if we keep litigants, criminals, and law-related occupations, should we not have some category to collect them as "people" in the giant category morass that is Category:Law? If you think not, okay, delete; if you think so, maybe we should be renaming. --Lquilter (talk) 01:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
You would put OJ Simpson in Category:Law??? Just delete it. JERRY contribs 02:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Mauricio de Sousa

Category:Mauricio de Sousa - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Category is improperly categorizing the works and characters of the person. It should either be deleted or renamed, repurposed and cleaned up to be placed in the Category:Works by artist structure. Otto4711 (talk) 22:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge almost everything to the "Monica's Gang" sub-cat, where in fact they all seem to be already. There seems to be 1 article on another work/series. Johnbod (talk) 23:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Actors who died in their 20s

Category:Actors who died in their 20s - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Violates WP:NOT#DIR in the unencyclopedic cross categorization clause and WP:OC#NARROW. Based entirely on a Yahoo news article which the user asserts creates significance. Redfarmer (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. As well as the reasons give by the nom, precedent points to not categorizing death by occupation (the dead pro wrestlers discussion), let alone categorizing death by occupation by age at death (the athletes who died before retiring discussion). Thanks again to ProveIt for his helpful index. Bencherlite 22:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - Sad current events notwithstanding, this is overcategorization by irrelevant intersection ("died in 20s" and "actors"). --Lquilter (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete and salt as a virtual recreation of Entertainers who died in their 20s which has been deleted three times. Otto4711 (talk) 22:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per all above, and thanks to Otto for finding that link. I couldn't remember where it was. LeSnail (talk) 23:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete, as non-defining irrelevant intersection. -- Prove It 01:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete rediculous combination of cats... how about "Australian Actors who died in their 20s face-down in a New York hotel room bed and who were found by a masseuse". Clear overcategorization. JERRY contribs 01:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep– This is a useful and specific category, (not an overcategorization), - particularly to anyone researching celebrity culture, child stars, and/or early fame. And it could be, with a little cross referencing, sadly, rather well populated. How else would one find this information? The best, most detailed articles here don’t do a stitch of good if the categories which allow the information to be organized and indexed in a way that is retrievable and searchable are deleted. (Hey, I think "trees" is an overcategorization, let's just call it "green stuff"). J. Van Meter (talk) 02:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Put in another way: according to WP:CG: 1. Categories are mainly used to browse through similar articles. Make decisions about the structure of categories and subcategories that make it easy for users to browse through similar articles. This category does just that. J. Van Meter (talk) 04:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: The only problem with that rationale is that trees have a commonly defined definition in their field and it is very easy to verify their similarities. What similarity is there between River Phoenix (who died of an accidental overdose), Jonathan Brandis (who hanged himself), and Heath Ledger (who died of an apparent overdose suicide)? Other than they're all dead and they died in a certain arbitrary age in their lives (death's a part of life, sad but true, and they could have just as easily died on their teens or their 30s) in a certain decade of their lives, they really don't have terribly much in common. And we're not even going back to some of the older subjects in the cat, like Marilyn Monroe and James Dean. Someone wanting to research child stars who died by accidental means or by suicide would be much better advised to cross check the American Child Actors cat with the death year cats to avoid missing anyone who didn't die in this arbitrary age range. Redfarmer (talk) 07:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
    • To push this even further, Sharon Tate is in this cat. She really does not have anything in common with the ones I quoted above. She was murdered by the Manson family. Redfarmer (talk) 07:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. We've said three times that this type of category is badly designed.--Mike Selinker (talk) 08:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Recreation of previously deleted category (or variant). Lugnuts (talk) 08:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Misplaced Pages cleanup sections

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was speedy delete, CSD#C3 (category populated only by deleted template - not a rationale I've had a reason to use before, so thanks!). Bencherlite 22:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Misplaced Pages cleanup sections - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Empty and redundant. Esprit15d • talk • contribs 19:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Disney Legends

Category:Disney Legends - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Non-defining. List exists. J. Van Meter (talk) 17:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Sarah Siddons Award winners

Category:Sarah Siddons Award winners - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Non-defining. List exists. J. Van Meter (talk) 17:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. WP:OCAT by award-winner. Q for nom -- Is this a WP:POINT? Or a change of heart? --Lquilter (talk) 17:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Regardless of nom's answer to the Q above, it's a valid deletion nomination. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Looking at the list in the main article Sarah Siddons Award and the "what links here", there seem to be about 8 winners who are in the category, but do not otherwise mention the award in their articles. I accept the category is OCAT by precedent etc, but the award is equally fairly distinguished and ought to be mentioned in the biog of every winner, which it is not yet. So a deletion now will result in the loss of useful encyclopedic information, which only someone starting from the main article is likely to be aware of. I would like to know how deleters propose to address this (a not uncommon situation)? Johnbod (talk) 23:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, they're listed in the article, all of them, and alphabetically too, which is more than the category can could say ("Liza Minnelli" listed under "L"). So why not use a "what links here"? --Lquilter (talk) 00:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
My point is that if the category is removed, you will never know, and have no way of knowing, that the 8 odd actresses won it, starting from their articles, unless someone adds this info to the articles, which no one seems to be proposing to do. Johnbod (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure this argument really avails category-keepers anything much, because this argument could be made against deleting anything: it's an exception that would swallow every deletion-related rule. But I don't like losing useful information, either, so I suppose we should be saying "and link to list from award-winner articles" as part of recommendation. --Lquilter (talk) 01:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep and the alphabetical order is easily fixed using magic word for default sort in an article. This category is not a random or irrelevant intersection, and as described above has use for editors to know to go add these details to the articles. JERRY contribs 01:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • User:Johnbod makes an excellent and valid point above regarding the loss of encyclopedic information due to the deletion of this category. I change my vote to Keep. J. Van Meter (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 03:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:World Wrestling Entertainment venues

Category:World Wrestling Entertainment venues - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Procedural nomination. Was listed incompletely on November 13. See this related discussion which was apparently intended to cover this one but it was not listed in the discussion. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Faculties and Departments in Sri Lanka

Propose renaming Category:Faculties and Departments in Sri Lanka to Category:University faculties and departments in Sri Lanka
Nominator's rationale: Rename. Child of Category:University and college departments, which has other children by various names. Open to further naming suggestions. Her Pegship (tis herself) 00:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kbdank71 15:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
To clarify: I'm good with Category:University departments and faculties in Sri Lanka as well. Her Pegship (tis herself) 00:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Images Using The Rationale Template

Propose renaming Category:Images Using The Rationale Template to Category:Images using the rationale template
Category:Images Using The Rationale Template - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Image needs to be renamed to Category:Images using the rationale template or something similar cause the capitalization is wrong. — Save_Us † 09:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kbdank71 15:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Delete - Egoistic. Since this is substituted, probably somone wants to know what pages its on or how many times its been used. But that defeats the point of substituting it in the first place.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 19:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Obsolete psychological theories

Category:Obsolete psychological theories - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: A theory might not be mainstream but obsolete implies there is absolutely no one who believes any part of it, highly unverifiable. Tstrobaugh (talk) 18:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Another nom who has improperly emptied the category & removed the parent cats, contrary to procedure. Current title certainly sounds POV, but how are we to discuss it now? The previous condition should be restored before we do. Johnbod (talk) 20:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Are you saying that I should have left incorrect categories on article pages? That is also against[REDACTED] policies. I just wanted the empty category deleted. If you want to see what was there just look through my user history. You can't really want me to restore everything? Could you also show me in Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion#Procedure where I have edit "contrary to procedure"? Thanks.Tstrobaugh (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
We debate whether they are incorrect here - which we are now unable to do. Yes I can really want you to restore everything - see the comments of others below too. Why should we all have to pick through your user history? Johnbod (talk) 02:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - I agree that the term "obsolete" as applied to a psychological theory is inappropriate. For future reference for the nominator, there can be a fine line between category cleanup and emptying the category. It's probably best, if you think the category itself should be deleted, not to clean it up to the point of emptying it. Otto4711 (talk) 22:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I would have liked to see what was in the category before making a decision. It's possible there would be a decent rename that could have been proposed. Snocrates 23:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Parent cats restored pending outcome of this discussion. Sting au Buzz Me... 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, but still no contents. Johnbod (talk) 02:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what articles were removed from the cat? I agree that the nominator should not have removed these. I would also like to request that these be reinstated pending outcome here. User best able to do that is the one who removed them. Sting au Buzz Me... 04:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks! Johnbod (talk) 22:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, maybe rename There is in fact a whole tree of Category:Obsolete scientific theories. Some of these are probably being consigned to the dustbin of history rather early, like Id, ego, and super-ego - there must be some true-believing Freudians left, surely? Or Type D personality - type A is also here, but not B. For me the question is whether there is enough left to justify a category, & if there is a better name. Personally I am sure there are many articles that could be added here, but I'm open to a rename - presumably to cover all the "obselete" cats. Johnbod (talk) 22:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually I see Superseded scientific theories is the main article, with a definition, which might be a better name. Fortunately we only have to decide if a standard is possible, not apply it here, and I think it is. Phrenology for example, must be obselete or superceded by any standard. Johnbod (talk) 03:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kbdank71 15:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete POV, what objective standard shows that a theory is obsolete? Some people still believe in a flat earth, alchemy, astrology, that the mood is made of green cheese, and all sorts of other things that many of us would think obsolete. But not to those who believe.... Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete as ambiguous and POV. In addition the term obsolete may well be misleading in this case. I have no objection to a new category being created that does not have these category name problems and has objective inclusion criteria. I think that the nature of problems with the current category argues for a delete rather then a keep or rename in an attempt to fix the listed problems. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment as described above, the less POV term "Superseded" could be used. There is also an entire tree of these for various fields. Why pick on this one? We should consider the whole tree, after notifying the Science projects, who I think will not be best pleased to have phrenology etc put back into their main categories. Johnbod (talk) 00:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete ambiguous and inherantly POV. It invites content disputes and would likely be used to tag another editor's article. No clear definition for obsolete for a theory. Just because a counter-theory may be mainstream, and nobody is publishing a new book on a theory does not necessariy make a theory obsolete. This cat does not serve an encyclopedic or collaborative purpose. JERRY contribs 01:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:NFL 1990s All-Decade Team

Category:NFL 1990s All-Decade Team - Template:Lc1
Category:NFL 1980s All-Decade Team - Template:Lc1
Category:NFL 1970s All-Decade Team - Template:Lc1
Category:NFL 1960s All-Decade Team - Template:Lc1
Category:NFL 1950s All-Decade Team - Template:Lc1
Category:NFL 1940s All-Decade Team - Template:Lc1
Category:NFL 1930s All-Decade Team - Template:Lc1
Category:NFL 1920s All-Decade Team - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - overcategorization by award or honor Lists already exist at main articles. Otto4711 (talk) 23:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kbdank71 15:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete OCAT by award; listify if you must but the awards cats pollution on bio pages is shocking. Does WP keep statistics on whether anyone follows those links? Or whether the normal user can even find a useful link among the crap? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Alumni by university or college in New Zealand

Propose renaming Category:Alumni by university or college in New Zealand to Category:Alumni by university in New Zealand
Nominator's rationale: In New Zealand, colleges are high schools. See College#New_Zealand for confirmation. High school alumni categories are part of a different tree. All of the subcats are alumni by university, and it is parented by Category:People by university in New Zealand. LeSnail (talk) 03:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kbdank71 14:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1977) coaches

Propose renaming Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1977) coaches to Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1976) coaches
Nominator's rationale: The ABA went defunct in 1976. This is one of the sub-categories mentioned at . Myasuda (talk) 14:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1977) playoffs

Propose renaming Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1977) playoffs to Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1976) playoffs
Nominator's rationale: The ABA went defunct in 1976. This is one of the sub-categories mentioned at . Myasuda (talk) 14:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Home Depot

Propose renaming Category:Home Depot to Category:The Home Depot
Nominator's rationale: Article was recently renamed to official company name. The category should reflect the name of the company and article. Jauerback/dude. 14:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • While I haven't looked at every category in that structure, I have looked into some of them previously and yeah, I think that many of them should probably be deleted. I don't see a lot of difference between categorizing businesspeople by their employers and categorizing entertainers or broadcasters by their employers. We've deleted scores of broadcaster by network categories, not to mention all of the actors by series etc. categories. Otto4711 (talk) 23:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Unnatural human deaths in the United States

Category:Unnatural human deaths in the United States - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - we do not appear to categorize deaths on the basis of human vs non-human. "Unnatural" raises the question of POV. Otto4711 (talk) 13:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Accidental human deaths by location

Category:Accidental human deaths by location - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - we do not appear to categorize deaths based on human vs non-human. Otto4711 (talk) 13:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Drug-related human deaths in the United States

Category:Drug-related human deaths in the United States - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - we do not appear to categorize non-human deaths. The utility of this category is unclear. Otto4711 (talk) 12:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:28 Days Later

Category:28 Days Later - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - unnecessary eponymous category for a film series. Everything is interlinked through text and template. Otto4711 (talk) 12:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Lists of earls

Category:Lists of earls
Nominator's rationale: Delete - Recently created and unnecessary category (currently being populated by maker), doubling up on pre-existing categories, such as Category:Earls, and the semi-tautologous ("Earl" is just the word for a British or Irish "count") category Category:British earls. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Jaws films

Category:Jaws films - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - unnecessary category for a film series. The films are linked through textlink with no need for the category. Otto4711 (talk) 11:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Articles with topics of unclear notability from Janaury 2008

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was speedy delete as empty / housekeeping. Bencherlite 08:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Articles with topics of unclear notability from Janaury 2008 - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Misspelling Jfire (talk) 07:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Actresses with posthumous work

Category:Actresses with posthumous work (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Actors with posthumous work (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Merge into Category:Actors with posthumous work; actors includes actresses. -- Prove It 06:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the difference in relative numbers between actors and actresses is notable MickMacNee (talk) 10:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete both - that an actor happened to die before a film in which s/he appeared was released does not rise to the level of categorizable. A list article which can include details of the situation is better. RIP Mr. Ledger. Otto4711 (talk) 12:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Could you point me to this worthy of categorization policy please MickMacNee (talk) 12:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
WP:CAT, WP:CATFAQ, WP:CLS, and in particular see WP:OCAT -- the top of WP:CAT describes categories as "defining" and WP:OCAT gives a lot of examples of the kinds of things that are not typically defining. --Lquilter (talk) 14:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I was aware of a few of those pages, and on further review I don't see any outstanding case therein that would put this cat as being squarely non-notable. Deaths of actors are notable (especially when premature as they are likely to have been in this case), posthumous work is notable, plus these deaths often change the films advertising, public reception, post-production etc, as has already been speculated and noted with The Dark Knight. It is most certainly not a trivial event. As an aside, categories that could be replaced by lists is also not a valid argument in most cases I've seen, cats and lists are not mutually exclusive, the related list is complementary, not a reason for deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MickMacNee (talk • contribs) 15:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Point me to a specific example in the above policies that compare to the nature of this category. I am frankly amazed that anyone can dismiss an actor dying before their film is released is a trivial event. MickMacNee (talk) 19:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Nobody's saying it's a trivial event. What's being said is that it isn't a categorizable event. Categories serve very specific purposes on Misplaced Pages; "random characteristic these people happen to have in common" is not one of them. Bearcat (talk) 19:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I use the example below, any man in the street could tell you what links these actors, hardly a random association. Christ I created this category because I expected it to exist, it took less time to create the category than to eventually track down the list that everyone seems to think is much more appropriate. It's not apporpriate if you can't find it from the articles about the actors that feature on it. MickMacNee (talk) 20:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
That you expected it to exist doesn't mean it should exist. That the typical man on the street could immediately name it as a distinction that these actors happen to share doesn't mean it belongs in an encyclopedia. Would you seriously expect to find this category in the Encyclopedia Brittanica? Misplaced Pages is not Entertainment Weekly — this is a grouping that belongs on a celebrity directory, not on an encyclopedia. Bearcat (talk) 22:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
My God. First of all, Brittanica is paper, and as such does not have categories. I would think they do mention if an actor dies during a film though, and not refer you to a magazine. As for comparing this information to something only worthy of entertainment weekly, that's frankly ridiculous. MickMacNee (talk) 22:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
First of all, Brittanica is paper Yeah? Looked at http://www.britannica.com/ lately? Bearcat (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Do they use categories? Can we compare some articles? MickMacNee (talk) 23:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The standards for lists and categories are different. The deletion or retention of these categories does not necessarily mean that a particular list should or shouldn't be deleted. Otto4711 (talk) 19:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This comment is just completely vague, and doesn't explain the difference between these specific articles. Why is the list self sustaining and not the category? MickMacNee (talk) 20:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Because the standards for lists and categories are different. They serve different purposes, and relate to the article in different ways. A category marks and defines an article in a way that a list doesn't, because it's listed right on the article itself. Category:Australian film actors is a defining characteristic of Heath Ledger. Category:2008 deaths is a defining characteristic of Heath Ledger. Having died with an as-yet-unseen performance still in a post-production booth somewhere, however, is certainly a moderately interesting footnote to his death, which is why it's valid as a list, but it isn't a defining characteristic of his life, which is why it's not valid as a category. That's the difference here. Bearcat (talk) 22:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
That is basically your POV and refers to no policy that I am aware of. I can't believe you can separate these defining characteristics so easily. Are you seriously suggesting dying during filming is a footnote? What a daft statement. I guarantee more people are aware that Bruce Lee and Oliver Reed died during filming than of any other defining characteristic as you put it that may be on their article. For example, for Oliver Reed: Deaths by myocardial infarction and People from Wimbledon. MickMacNee (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
No, it most certainly is not my POV; it's core categorization policy that isn't open to interpretation. That an actor died with an unreleased film in the can may be interesting, it may be famous...but those aren't categorization criteria. The fact alone simply does not define the actor the way his nationality, his hometown or the medium in which he worked does. The fact that a random member of Joe Q. Public may be able to pick a particular fact out as the common element in a list of actors does not, in and of itself, justify using that fact to categorize people. Bearcat (talk) 23:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
What about say, Murdered hip hop musicians, Directors who committed suicide or Musicians who died on stage then? What is the difference? Why would anyone be interested in these categories but not actors who died during filming? Why would anyone care more that a certain director committed suicide, rather than the fact Oliver Reed died making a film? Or does it have to be murder/suicide? I am failing to see any worthwhile difference at all, again it just looks like a POV interpretation of what is and isn't notable about a person. MickMacNee (talk) 23:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Bad analogy. This category would be comparable to "Hip hop musicians who were murdered while recording an album" or "Directors who committed suicide while working on a film" — neither of which, you'll notice, exists. The categories you listed are straight "manner of death" categories which aren't comparable to this one. Bearcat (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps this is the test case for those categories then, for example, Singers with phostumous work, Elvis, 2Pac and the like. Musicians who died on stage is extremely similar to that. Also, from a category Directors who commited suicide you could infer some may have left posthumous work, which is not somehting you could determine from Australian actors or Deaths in 2008 MickMacNee (talk) 00:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
No, this isn't a test case for those. Both of them have been tried before and deleted, which means they were the test cases for this. Bearcat (talk) 00:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Again another completely vague point. Why a list and not a cat? It's a complete mystery to me from this comment why you think one is acceptable and not the other. Why would a reader expect Oliver Reed and Bruce Lee to have their association in a list and not a category? MickMacNee (talk) 20:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Lists and categories have two different purposes, and consequently different standards to determine their appropriateness. This does not meet the standards for categories. Bearcat (talk) 22:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Again that's just an assertion of your POV, completely vague and not testable at all. MickMacNee (talk) 23:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Again that's just an assertion of your POV. Nope. Standard practice. Nothing whatsoever to do with my opinion. Bearcat (talk) 23:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
If it's standard practice why are you having difficulty directing me to any policy that says exactly what you assert above, bar the rather obvious statement that lists and cats are different? I have seen more statements to the effect that lists and categories are complimentary and are not mutually exclusive than explaining the difference in standards to be applied, wherever they may be found. MickMacNee (talk) 23:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
WP:OCAT has been pointed out to you more than once. Bearcat (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I see no section in OCAT that even vaguly applies. Non-defining isn't applicable - anyone, scholar or dunce could tell you what links the people being categorised. And once again, death during filming has ramifications beyond mere administrative footnotes, so its certainly notable. And it's certainly not triva. MickMacNee (talk) 23:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
"anyone, scholar or dunce could tell you what links the people being categorised" is not what defines the validity of a category. The number of people who can name the point of commonality among various topics does not inherently make something an encyclopedic categorization schema. And while an actor dying during production of a film may have ramifications for the films, it is not a defining characteristic of the actors. Bearcat (talk) 23:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Categories are for navigation, what use are they then if they don't make common associations that most people would identify with? What higher purpose do they serve as a schema? How many times do you look straight to the bottom of an article to find associations with other articles? You wouldn't expect to see Oliver Reed in the see also section of Bruce Lee, but you would expect an over-arching category for their notable manner of death. MickMacNee (talk) 00:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Categories are not solely a navigation scheme; they're also a classification scheme that inherently marks and defines the article. Some people would also expect a category for "People who are rumoured to be gay" to be present at the bottom of articles on certain celebrities, but that doesn't mean it belongs there. Some people would expect a category for "People with missing toes" to be present on John Denver, Jason London and Alessandro Zampedri, but that doesn't mean it belongs there. The job of a category is to classify people by encyclopedically defining characteristics like the year they were born, the year they died, the country they were from, their occupation, etc. — the job is not to represent every individual fact that a person happens to share with other people. And for the record, dying with an unreleased film in the can is not a manner of death. Suicide is a manner of death. Plane crash is a manner of death. Political assassination is a manner of death. "Manner of death" means cause of death — having completed a film that will end up being released posthumously is a tangential circumstance surrounding Heath Ledger's death, not the cause of his death. Bearcat (talk) 00:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This was never meant to be comparable to a manner of death category. That comes out of trying to find comparable categories that have passed the mythical criteria for existence (god forbid we waste valuable Star Wars server space for real life information), seeing as it seems so off the wall that anyone could possibly want to link these people in a book of notable facts. As for the toes thing -as per the quoted policies, that would be trivial categorisation, as for the gay thing, that is self evidently rumour and not citeable. Considering this defining feature obsession, is it a defining feature of the works then, the films etc, that they were released posthumously, such that there might be say a posthumous films category, or is that a no no too? I am really struggling to find a way of how you link Oliver Reed and Bruce Lee from their articles pages without a cat, and am in awe of this absolute and total resistance to use the wikimedia for what it was designed, making links between articles. Simple dismissal of the relation as non-notable/trivial/random and thus not worthy of an easily identifiable link just astounds me. I have seen far far worse relations and waste of space in WP than this, a relation that immediately came to mind on hearing this news. Dark Knight will definitely see a change in promotion, sales figures and legacy due to this notable fact about the lead actor, and his legacy will most certainly be defined by his upcoming posthumous performance, effects that have happened and will happen again and again. Asserting anything else is just frankly rule-lawyering and diminishes the usefullness of WP for everybody. MickMacNee (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're correct that a category for people with missing toes would be needless trivia. That's why it's a valid comparison: this category under discussion is also needless trivia. Bearcat (talk) 02:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Just plainly incorrect. There's no other way to refute that sort of blinding nonsense. MickMacNee (talk) 03:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It is not a defining characteristic of the actors. Bearcat (talk) 03:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose There is so much crap being talked here about the difference between lists and categories, it's completely un-supported anywhere. Lists and categories are not mutually exclusive, there are not separate standards on what can be put in a list or a category. I challenge anyone here to produce a policy that says differently. MickMacNee (talk) 20:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Further comment. I'm just deeply saddened and depressed and demotivated that people think deleting this cat helps WP in any way. I came to the heath ledger article on his death and expected a category like this for, you guessed it, navigation purposes (this is what categories are for after all), and on finding nothing like it, I eventually found the list. I am not kidding when I say it took less time to populate this cat than find and decipher the list that supposedly serves a better and more worthy purpose for grouping these actors on WP. I am gradually realising there is a large difference in philosophy between editors who wish to spend their time contributing, and admins that merely patrol Afd, DRV, Cfd etc making vague unfounded and unsourced policy statements. Despite the inevitable outcome of this process no-one will ever convince me that this cat is a random association of unrelated articles and WP is served by its destruction. MickMacNee (talk) 21:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete both certainly not a defining characteristic of anybody who would have this cat applied to their article. The category itself self-voids it as a category. JERRY contribs 00:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete both per nom and many of the other above comments. Snocrates 00:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Somebody explain how you get between these actor articles without this category, using links within the articles themselves. To explain, think what I had to go through to find the List of posthumous works article after starting at Heath Ledger That is, trying to think of an article name that covers the topic (without thinking of the obvious to it appears only me, an actor category), then obviously failing at that, I just entered posthumous, to get the posthumous disambig page. Now, note that posthumous works was only wikilinked to the list by me later, so on initialy finding a reference to posthumous works with no wikilink to the list, I am still stuck. However, I did find the Category:Posthumous works on the page, through which I eventually found the list, through which I am expected to deduce the actor names from what is quite a bit of surrounding text (as opposed to clear category entries). Ironically, serial category destroyer User:Otto4711 has even tried to remove that category link today. So, I have found the list. With this experience, and taking on board the above comments and usual nodding dog votes about how the list is the only acceptable article, is it now to be taken as read to say that, if this category is deleted, I can add the List of posthumous works article as a see also section to each actor article? Or is this whole attempt at linking related articles a complete dead loss? MickMacNee (talk) 01:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Do not attack editors who express opposing opinions. Discuss categories here, maybe even articles, policies, guidelines, but not editors. JERRY contribs 02:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It is not an attack, it is an accurate description of their edits today, unless you wish to dispute this description. MickMacNee (talk) 03:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
"serial category destroyer" = attack, "nodding dog votes" = attack. JERRY contribs 05:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I assume that I was the target of the "nodding dog votes" comment, since it came immediately after my comment and my user name is, well ... the name of a dog. Like Jerry, I see MickMacNee's comments as an inappropriate attack and suggest that if he's trying to make any headway here, attacking other editors and/or their opinions is not the way to do it. He's losing any sympathy he once may have had. Snocrates 06:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I have a better idea: why don't you explain to us why "getting between these actor articles without this category, using links within the articles themselves" is even necessary. Bearcat (talk) 02:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Because unlike your assertion, it is not a trivial link. It's quite disturbing that you seem to believe there would be equal citable coverage about actors having missing toes compared to actors who have had posthumous work released. I can't see how you can possibly think this is a trivial association. And this is ignoring the fact that linking articles is the whole point of wikimedia, even for the most tenuous of relations. MickMacNee (talk) 03:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
You do not need a way to get from Heath Ledger to Vic Morrow and back via directly-embedded links in both articles. It's just not necessary in an encyclopedia. And I never said it was trivial; I said it's not category-defining. Bearcat (talk) 03:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Again, that is completely your own opinion, just like many people might think it not necessary to have a link between all deaths by myacardial infarction, or all people from Wimbledon. It's an obvious link, as already pointed out, more so probably than many other categories provided on actor pages, and not excluded by any part of WP:OCAT without some very fine tooth picking and hair splitting. But like I have already said, if you think the server space is that precious, it's just sad, and helps nobody in the long run. MickMacNee (talk) 03:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I would also be interested to know your opinion on whether the relations provided through and the status inferred by Category:Posthumous works are necessary/trivial in the same way. I don't see how The Dark Knight can be said to have the 'defining feature' as you want to call categories, of being a posthumous work, if you don't confer the same status to the actor whose death made it a posthumous work. MickMacNee (talk) 03:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, we all know. The difference is some of the editors here try to get rid of some of it. It's not terribly helpful to stray from discussing the category in question here. Snocrates 07:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, yes, yes, I am well aware of OSE, but then what else is there to use as a point of discussion when people point blank refuse to acknowledge basic requests to explain over and above their obvious POV that this is a trivial association, or expand to give a specific policy exmaple that prevents its creation, further than WP:IDONTLIKEIT, because these procedures are infested by repetive robots who think deletionism adds anything, and resort to the same pointless wall tactics, like OSE. Ironically OSE is the exact argument being used to defend not having this category, how does that work? You can quote examples but I can't?. Categories are not mutually exclusive to lists, they do not have a mythical higher place in WP. The nodding dog wasn't a reference to you, it's a reference to this shitty cabal that just lazily nods along with as above votes without actually addressing the specifics of the case. This project is completely fucked with these continual railroad deletions of perfectly valid efforts to improve, it's completely non-sensical to think any of these procedures are helping anyone add to the project. Seriously, given some of the ridiculous arguments above do you think anyone watching would ever want to create an article in here? Something was missing, I added it. I notice absolutely no-one in this debate has contributed a single positive comment about how to do this without a category. That should tell you everything about the prevailing attitude in here, and why most of the voters seem to do nothing else but railroad deletions all day. MickMacNee (talk) 11:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1977)

Propose renaming Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1977) to Category:American Basketball Association (1967-1976)
Nominator's rationale: The ABA disbanded in 1976. Myasuda (talk) 04:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Rename per nom. Some of this category's subcategories need the same renaming done, and other subcategories don't have the dates at all, which is liable to cause confusion with the newer ABA. Snocrates 04:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Blackhawk albums

Propose renaming Category:Blackhawk albums to Category:BlackHawk albums
Nominator's rationale: The band's name is spelled with both a capital B and a capital H, as evidenced by their official website, All Music Guide, and many other sources. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 03:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:PIHA teams

Propose renaming Category:PIHA teams to Category:Professional Inline Hockey Association teams
Nominator's rationale: Rename. Expand abbreviation per parent Category:Professional Inline Hockey Association. Snocrates 03:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Radio stations in Green Bay-Appleton

Propose renaming Category:Radio stations in Green Bay-Appleton to Category:Radio stations in Green Bay, Wisconsin
Nominator's rationale: Rename. For consistency with other radio station categories, the state name should be included and the name of the Arbitron radio market for this region is "Green Bay, Wisconsin." Four of the included stations are licensed to Appleton, but each of them easily reach the town of Green Bay. JPG-GR (talk) 02:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

ASW aircraft

Propose renaming:
Category:ASW aircraft to Category:Anti-submarine aircraft
Category:ASW aircraft 1930-1939 to Category:Anti-submarine aircraft 1930-1939
Category:British ASW aircraft 1930-1939 to Category:British anti-submarine aircraft 1930-1939
Category:ASW aircraft 1940-1949 to Category:Anti-submarine aircraft 1940-1949
Category:British ASW aircraft 1940-1949 to Category:British anti-submarine aircraft 1940-1949
Category:Japanese ASW aircraft 1940-1949 to Category:Japanese anti-submarine aircraft 1940-1949
Category:United States ASW aircraft 1940-1949 to Category:United States anti-submarine aircraft 1940-1949
Category:ASW aircraft 1950-1959 to Category:Anti-submarine aircraft 1950-1959
Category:British ASW aircraft 1950-1959 to Category:British anti-submarine aircraft 1950-1959
Category:French ASW aircraft 1950-1959 to ‎Category:French anti-submarine aircraft 1950-1959
Category:United States ASW aircraft 1950-1959 to Category:United States anti-submarine aircraft 1950-1959
Category:ASW aircraft 1960-1969 to Category:Anti-submarine aircraft 1960-1969
Category:British ASW aircraft 1960-1969 to Category:British anti-submarine aircraft 1960-1969
Category:Italian ASW aircraft 1960-1969 to Category:Italian anti-submarine aircraft 1960-1969
Category:Japanese ASW aircraft 1960-1969 to ‎Category:Japanese anti-submarine aircraft 1960-1969
Category:Soviet ASW aircraft 1960-1969 to Category:Soviet anti-submarine aircraft 1960-1969
Category:ASW aircraft 1970-1979 to Category:Anti-submarine aircraft 1970-1979
Category:British ASW aircraft 1970-1979 to Category:British anti-submarine aircraft 1970-1979
Category:United States ASW aircraft 1970-1979 to ‎Category:United States anti-submarine aircraft 1970-1979
Category:ASW aircraft 1980-1989 to Category:Anti-submarine aircraft 1980-1989
Category:International ASW aircraft 1980-1989 to Category:International anti-submarine aircraft 1980-1989
Category:ASW aircraft 1990-1999 to Category:Anti-submarine aircraft 1990-1999
Category:International ASW aircraft 1990-1999 to Category:International anti-submarine aircraft 1990-1999
Category:British ASW aircraft to Category:British anti-submarine aircraft
Category:French ASW aircraft to Category:French anti-submarine aircraft
Category:International ASW aircraft to Category:International anti-submarine aircraft
Category:Italian ASW aircraft to Category:Italian anti-submarine aircraft
Category:Japanese ASW aircraft to Category:Japanese anti-submarine aircraft
Category:Soviet and Russian ASW aircraft to Category:Soviet and Russian anti-submarine aircraft
Category:United States ASW aircraft to Category:United States anti-submarine aircraft
Nominator's rationale: Rename to expand acronym. "ASW" is not a well known acronym among the general public. jwillbur 01:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
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