Misplaced Pages

• Google, and
• Myself, and
• The Mexican wiki, AND
• The Chinese Wiki all say the same things,

, nonetheless, I get argument from others or at least no support. Please note that I addressed this in my 500-word summary, but did not have enough time to cite the Chinese or Mexican wikis as support, and I honestly had not seen the new evidence either. (This item is questionable, but still under mediation.)

3) While I didn't completely revert, I nonetheless removed UNAPPROVED and unnecessary edits which made the text unecessarily small -twice: once here and again, repairing even MORE damage by Duck: . Please note the edits and my comments and the lack of consensus on the HTML makrkup changes Duck made. I really think we need your help. (This item is unapproved by any consensus, and I fear that if it were looked at by other editors, they may make excuses to side with Duckecho to push the pro-life editors out of the debate.)

Thanks, --GordonWattsDotCom 14:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Gordon, it drives me crazy that your writing can be so obtuse that it takes me 5 days to figure it out. 'Cuz sometimes you've really got something to say. So, for the love of God, get to the point before you give me an aneurysm.

What's scary is that I mostly agree with you. The old "diagnosed" intro is better, and I'll stake that position after Ed lifts the block. (Plus, I happen to know SlimVirgin will buy in on the basis of NPOV.) The use of small text was a good improvement to reduce the impact of footnotes without removing them. But, I agree that Euthanasia was an issue. I will not approve of it's use as a verb (For example: ...Terri was euthanasied). Only as a topic. Nobody ever suggested she be "put to sleep", like a pet. Using Euthanasia as a verb would clearly imply that.--ghost 06:21, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Thx 4 the analysis & feedback/suggestions, Ghost. Will try. The "short" version, however, would not be pleasing: For, it would go something like this: Read my 500-word summary and the "extra" points, and then edit accordingly; If those didn't answer a question, start with my pro-life buds, and look at their 500-word summaries, going from "right" to "left" (conservative to liberal). THERE! That was "short & sweet," he heh...--GordonWattsDotCom 07:01, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

PS: Thanks for supporting key points I make, however, I still think that "normal" sized font is safe, and not a problem.--GordonWattsDotCom 07:01, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Well?

It has been 4 days since the last contribution to this Mediation. Is everyone giving up, or what? I didn't feel particularly good about putting a user block on FuelWagon, but does that change anything?

You want another Mediator? You want to continue with me? What do you all want to do? Uncle Ed 19:41, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

As I say in other recent posts, my computer was damaged, and I was busy mediating "World War 3" at the Abortion "Wiki-Quotes" page, and thus busy & unable to respond; still not up to full speed, but Ed was my role-model on how to mediate, and I wasusccessful in my resulotion of others' dispute-...see other posts recently in this page for details. You're doing good, Uncle Ed; let's address specific points more and agree to find concensus, not agree to disagree, haha.--GordonWattsDotCom 08:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not giving up. I've had work overtake my life, as I've mentioned to a few of you. I wish to apologize if my absence impacting things. However, I'm VERY disappointed in what's gone on while I've been absent.

• Members of this Mediation dragging in other Admins
• Users/Participants being blocked
• Users dropping off Misplaced Pages altogether
• Still no real progress

Ed, I had hoped that, as Mediator, you'd put forth some type of compromise solution. If you want us to do that for you, fine. Email me, and I'll get on it this evening in spite of my other responsibilities. If you no longer feel comfortable as Mediator, please let us know. But if you're going to stick it out (and I hope you do) please give us your guidance, not the back of your hand. And could you please encourage the other Admin that's gotten involved to either join us here, or cool their jets? Despite our differences with you, I don't think that you're the person that's driving other Users away.--ghost 19:58, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not quitting. I've never quit a Mediation. As they said in Ghostbusters, "that would be wrong".

But perhaps I've been too harsh or made other mistakes. Every dispute is different, and we'll just have to keep plugging away at it until we find the key that unlocks the door.

I believe in the magic ... Uncle Ed 20:06, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

You know why I'm glad I'm not the mediator? Half the time, I can tell these people are upset with those people, but I can't figure out what the dispute is.

That said, if I had to blurt out a proposed fix, no matter how outlandish, right now, I would say this:

• A new, ultra-low tolerance policy on personal attacks, including accusing other editors of being pro-this, anti-that, or even general references to "the so-and-so camp/so-and-so supporters."
• An agreement to tackle each disputed change individually. In addition, editors posting more than 500 words per post will be keel-hauled. Editors nesting more than 200 words into an existing post will be fired into the sun via super-gigantic cannon.
• All parties who have agreed to mediation must reach consensus on a statement detailing what the purpose of the article should be before performing any more edits other than obvious vandalism reversion.

Fox1 20:48, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

A ghost invited me to join in this discussion, though I see Ed has asked that only parties to the mediation join in, which I am not, so Ed, feel free to delete this comment as you see fit. I've read through the summaries above, and I agree completely with the comment from Fox 1. This article has been turned into a POV warzone, with no one paying attention to the fact that we want it to be read, and that therefore it has to be readable. This means concision, tight prose, good sources that are presented correctly and are easy to access, and above all, neutrality, which is currently lacking. But neutrality isn't gained by stating POV 1, then countering it with POV 2, then again with POV 3. Neutrality means writing in a disinterested way throughout. My outsider's suggestion is that any editor with strong views about the Schiavo case ought to stop editing the article for a few weeks, and allow it to be looked over by editors who have no emotional investment in it. SlimVirgin 21:16, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

This mediation has accomplished nothing that I can see, except generate more comments from the editors. I think we declare this an official failure. FuelWagon 22:51, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

any editor with strong views about the Schiavo case ought to stop editing Whew! That was close. I just have strong views about bad edits. I guess I can stay. FuelWagon 05:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

lol--ghost 05:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Uncle Ed, I apologize for my silence. I was away for a few days, and then came back to see how intense things had got in that short period. I explained here that I wasn't sure what you wanted us to do. I didn't want to post long (and possibly irritating) essays after you had told us to stick to 500 words. Also, I was, and still am, extremely busy. I have to submit a university assignment in the middle of next week, and should be more free after that. Just now, all I have time to say is that I still support mediation. I agree with Fox1's suggestions about personal attacks, although I would personally have no problem with the use of such phrases as "Michael Schiavo supporters" or "Schindler supporters" as long as they are used for ease of reference rather than bandied around as accusations. I would also be happy to go along with SlimVirgin's suggestion that those with strong views would stop editing for a few weeks. That it was necessary to block someone for personal attacks is not at all a reason for or a sign of failure of this mediation, unless people want it to be such. We should all be able to rise above this. I am extremely sorry to see that FuelWagon has now filed an RfC against SlimVirgin. Ann Heneghan 23:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

(Welcome back, Ann.) I have to disagree with Slim's conclusions in the strongest terms. This article's being a POV warzone is nothing new. It's been like that since January. It's better now than it's been. And there are editors who are interested in readability. We are those editors. The POV 1/2/3 example is valid, but is directly contradicted by NPOV. We have a responsability to present both majority and minority views. Finally, I left for a week and a war broke out. I have no interest in walking away. What Slim may not appriciate yet is that we are each voices of groups of editors on this issue. If we all go away for a month, you'll eventually see the same arguments, with different signatures. *shakes head* No, we as a group are closer to concensus than previous editors. Let's stick with it.--ghost 05:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Welcome back; see above for my own positive feedback for the mediator's good efforts.--GordonWattsDotCom 08:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

We can do this

I think Slim made an error or two, but nothing we can't resolve right here on this page.

"Slick" RickK and/or others have accused me of being biased in favor of SlimVirgin, but a close reading of my analysis says diferently. However, I am "slim" myself, and also a person of morals, so I would have a pro bias for her choice of user names, but I don't ley my bias prevent correct and unbiased, objective NPOV analysis.--GordonWattsDotCom 09:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

She's in the mediation now, whether we like it or not.

Fox is on the right track, and I'll say more about that in a minute (er, "in a while" I mean).

Fox's suggestions are good, expecially about tackling each problem individually, but Fox trivializes some minor viewpoints, a bit too much, in my honest opinion.--GordonWattsDotCom 09:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I have offered to bow out if asked, but no one has directly asked.

FuelWagon has very graciously responded to an unprecedented "block by an admin who was also conducting the Mediation he was in" - if I've phrased that correctly. My head is still spinning, anyway.

Wagon tries to improve the page and works hard, even if he doesn't see eye-to-eye on all my points (see "crying witch" vs "crying wolf" in archives), so, while his temper wasn't appropriate, I am not going to personally be offended; I myself make mistakes...--GordonWattsDotCom 09:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

This is a confusing, emotionally laden situation. (This, the sixth paragraph, is the only one I'm really clear about!)

Okay, let me catch my breath for a couple of minutes. Do go on, while I collect my thoughts. Uncle Ed 01:37, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Why are we here?

In other words, what are we trying to do?

Fox said we needed:

"a statement detailing what the purpose of the article should be"

I think that would help. Also, Slim pointed out the need for neutrality.

Would a fresh start help? We could:

(A) move the entire article to Terri Schiavo/disputed, and start with a micro-stub.

(B) create a Terri Schiavo/moderated page (also with a micro-stub)

...and then follow the rules I posted at Misplaced Pages:NPOV violation. Uncle Ed 01:43, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand what purpose moving the article would serve. There is a sizable segement of the general public that needs access to this article. Despite its flaws, it's been cited as the best, most thorough treatment of this subject on the web. (By conservatives at that ;-) ) As long as we're not taking it out of the hands of the public, I might support this. Please explain further.--ghost 04:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I concur; Fix, not replace, and then, later, if we get concensus, LOCK the page, and make edits by submitting them to a "screened and paid" editorial board.--GordonWattsDotCom 09:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

We can't do that, Gordon (the locking), at least, not for any useful length of time. I'm not saying the idea wouldn't do wonders for this article, it probably would, but we can't buck the core philosophy of Misplaced Pages, no matter how messy this article gets. Locking can only be used for short periods in the face of unusual events like overwhelming vandalism. Even this mediation only applies, voluntarily, to those of use who agreed to it, no one else.

Fox1 12:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Correct, and thus my hope has always been that we could develop party platform from which to build. Our various views and positions are not unlike those within political parties, in that we all share the goal of improving the article. I know this sounds odd, but hear me out. If we can use the caucus method of working out planks with which to build a platform, we can become the example the other editors need to be led with. But this will require some give and take on all our parts. I'm not asking anyone to compromise their morals or views, but to make space for the morals and views of the rest of the group. And I know we can achieve this, based on the commitment we've all shown.--ghost 13:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

That sounds good, ghost. Uncle Ed 15:54, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Is it a failure?

I conceded that it is not a success - yet. But I refuse to admit that a problem which has taken so long to come into being, is insoluble merely because it couldn't be solved in a month (or less) of public on-line discussion.

Actually I think we're just starting to get at the real issues here. Which is the prerequisite for resolving them. Uncle Ed 02:29, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

LOL. Think of it as a 10-step program, all. I'd like to start by saying, "Hi. My name is Ghost, and I'm a Wikiholic...." Where are we if we lose out sense of humor?--ghost 04:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

"Is it a failure?" No: In fact, Uncle Ed, you were my role model and guide when World War III broke out over at the Wiki Quotes Abortion page! In recalling your distinctive style of identifying the various conflicts, and then identifying them, I coipied YOU: I identified a multitude of problems, and scored a direct 'hit', when one of my proposals for format change was accepted over the other alternatives. As you can see, things quitened down when I learned from you, and copied, monkey see, monkey do, but with all the monkey business and you forgetting how or what to do, look at the current Abortion page situation, and re-learn your specialty.--GordonWattsDotCom 08:22, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I am slower today, as the good computer was hit by lightening and fried BOTH modems (DSL and dial up; I almost got fried Tuesday), plus the stupid space bar in this keyboard is very unresponsive, and my word processor (used to save edits and spell-check) doesn't automaticaLLY LIGHT up the misspelled words like on my good computer, and must be pasted a certain place below header or it won't past; and "copying," the opposite, must be done manually in THIS aol window,m and won't accept Edit-select all-copy. ~~ In short, I AM not up to top speed, and feel unable to express myself well; This is why I have not participated since the lightening strike Tuesday in a "Florida thunderstorm,": and I mayt be slow the rest of this week? ~~ OK,. enough of my moaning; Just wanted to let everybody know why I wAS SLOWQ- HAD TO USE iNTERNET CASE AND PUBLIC LIBRARY AND FINally figured out how to get the old standby computer online bu dialup somwhow.. --OK, Yes, Uncle Ed, you have my vote of confidence, but as I said before, you are undermined by two things: 1) Editors are not screened here like "regular" places of employment; and 2) We don't get paid (and I would imagine even y'all admins & sysops probably don't get paid, or if you do, it's a pittance) -not paying the help is what stymies the quality:" You get what you pay for, if I can end this once phrase with a preposition this time.--GordonWattsDotCom 08:22, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Two quick points, before I dash off to a meat world obligation:

• Ending a sentence with a preposition is an affront up with which I will not put. ;-)
• I'm glad my failure has provided a good example for you. :-) Uncle Ed 12:34, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

All right Winston Churchill, ;-o--GordonWattsDotCom 15:45, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

• I fixed "4 Archive / reboot" above. Reason? I'm getting sleepy andmy computers are kind of sleepy acting too sometimes, and if I don't show up for a couple days (working, sleeping, etc.), then I want ALL the objections to get voted on if I'm not around. (If there's a vote, and someone's absent, count their vote based on their summary, OK?)
• Don't get me wrong: I DO want to participate, but it doesn't pay, so your help is unreliable and has other responsibilities. REQUEST: Ed or Ghost, who requested mediation, or somebody, Please make sure EVERYBODY ELSE's voice is heard, even if it slightly exceeds the 500-word thing. (See Archive - reboot: I reformatted the titles, but I left some people out because I don't feel like searching for extra views on them, even tho their voice IS important... (I'm human & limited I made sure ALL of the points of summaries squeezed in: I changed the rules, like was done in the Kobayashi Maru -so we would win!) Cheers!

PVS

If you want all the facts about Shiavo's diagnosis, it would be something like this: FuelWagon 22:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Eight neurologists examined Shiavo.
Seven neurologists diagnosed her to be in a PVS. 
All seven were members in good standing of American Academy of Neurology.
One neurologist (Hammersfahr) diagnosed her to be MCS.
Hammersfahr was not a member in good standing of American Academy of Neurology.
His vasodilatation therapy is not recognized in the medical community.
He has claimed, on multiple occaisons, to be a "nominee" for the Nobel Prize "in Medicine",
however this is not true.
He was also hired by the Schindlers specifically to challenge the PVS diagnosis in court.
When he testified in court as to his diagnosis of Shiavo being MCS,
the court impeached the credibility of his diagnosis.

And if you want the short version for the intro, I'd say this FuelWagon 22:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Seven neurologists diagnosed Shiavo to be in a PVS.

Yes, I think Hammersfahr is enough of a quack to be disregarded in the intro. FuelWagon 22:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

This is helpful, FuelWagon. And I'll be back soon. Uncle Ed 22:46, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I'm unlocking the article. Fuel, please apply your intro (let's see what happens). Slim, you are welcome to this Mediation. Fox, thanks for insisting that we all avoid personal remarks. Ann, don't spend too much time away from your schoolwork. Ghost, well, think of something! Gordon, "less is more". Sorry if I missed anyone else.

I'll be offline Sunday, so please play nice, kids. ;-) Uncle Ed 12:31, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

"Fuel, please apply your intro" Done. FuelWagon 20:21, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

If you don't mention Hammesfahr, then you must also exclude Cranford, who has misdiagnosed. However, if you include the seven (7) who said Terri was PVS, then you must also include Cheshire AND Hammesfahr, who both -to some extent -examined her. Further, if you include statements about Hammesfahr that are negative in nature, you must also include a critique of ALL the other neurologists. You can't "pick and choose." Furthermore, I just recently read that Hammesfahr had gotten positive reviews by some circuit judge. Let me see if I can find something on the net about this.--GordonWattsDotCom 07:26, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• I found them: Here is the PRWeb.com text version, the alternate release, and the copy off of his web site.
• FACTS: The release says that "Florida physician declared "the first physician to treat patients successfully to restore deficits caused by stroke" says Judge Susan Kirkland of the Florida Department of Health." (a supposedly good thing)
• In the critics' favor: The doctor himself makes these claims.
• In the doctor's favor: These claims about Judge Kirkland are apparently NOT challenged nor rebutted ANYWHERE on the Internet.
• Conclusion: The are probably true, and if you report the bad, then you must report the good too -to be fair and factual, and unbiased, that is, NPOV.--GordonWattsDotCom 07:38, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Ann's report

I shouldn't be here; I should be studying, but - I took a peep at the unlocked article, and then changed it back to "diagnosed as". This isn't meant to be the beginning of another war. If I'm reverted, I won't revert back without discussing it first. I would probably have left it alone, except that Uncle Ed forgot to put two square brackets on both sides, so his wikification didn't work. Here are the reasons for my change:

A long time ago, the article used to state (as fact) that she was in a PVS. This generated a lot of complaints and some edit wars. I'm not pushing for a claim that she was MCS. All I want was that something controversial should not be stated as a fact. Eventually, a consensus was reached that the article would say "diagnosed as". (This would not violate the beliefs of those who agreed with the diagnosis.) After that change, there was peace for a while.

Just before I went to London, Duckecho removed the "diagnosed as". He did this without any prior discussion on the talk page. (He also inserted an invisible instruction not to change this!) Ghost wasn't around. FuelWagon bet a dozen donuts that someone would complain. (But he backed up Duckecho, saying something like, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained.") I pointed out why I wasn't happy. Neuroscientist gave me some support, while making it clear that his support was for reasons of "epistemic accuracy", and not because he doubted the diagnosis. Duckecho accepted that he could allow "diagnosed as" for Neuroscientist's reasons, but not for mine. I reinserted "diagnosed as", just before going to London.

While I was in London, Duckecho again removed the "diagnosed as" changed that bit to "evolved into an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS) as determined by more than a half dozen neurologists." Then SlimVirgin arrived on the scene, and changed it to "a persistent vegetative state (PVS), according to seven neurologists who examined her, or a minimally conscious state (MCS), according to one other." I think everyone reading this knows what happened in the next few days. Then the article was locked. Ghost came back. SlimVirgin told Ghost (on his talk page) that she'd be happy with the "diagnosed as" version. She also wrote (about Duckecho's version): "The PVS was a disputed diagnosis. The issue split America in two. And yet our introduction is written as though there was no dispute at all. The PVS diagnosis was by far and away the majority one, and it was supported by the courts, and the sentence should be written to reflect that, but the other diagnosis can't be ignored."

Uncle Ed's edit summary (May I) suggested that he wouldn't take offence if someone changed it, and I had to change the bad link anyway.

I'm not offended at all; I'm rather pleased. :-) I'm actually very difficult to offend. I'm collecting a list of user talk:Ed Poor/ways to offend me, but it's rather short right now. (So far, nobody's been able to add to it - I wonder why ;-)

Anyway, I appreciate the storyline. Now I see much that I did not. I'm not as smart as Gandalf, and I don't have one of those magic crystal balls that the Queen and the Steward had {see palintir), but I just finished my ninth reading of LOTR last month and it gave me new inspiration.

Now, where was I? Oh, well, maybe it doesn't matter. Let's just carry on with the article. This is my day off, actually. Uncle Ed 15:24, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

One further point. FuelWagon has made various claims about Dr Hammesfahr, in justification for leaving his diagnosis out of the introduction. If we go along with the "diagnosed as", which is what we had before Duckecho changed it, we won't need to argue over whether or not to mention seven neurologists or seven plus one. However, if we don't agree to leave "diagnosed as", we'll have to decide exactly how fair it is to put all that stuff about Hammesfahr in the introduction. Neuroscientist wrote a very helpful clarification of Hammesfahr's position recently, and I have more questions. I'm not going to write them now. Maybe after a few hours of study, as a break. That's all for now. Ann Heneghan 14:54, 16 July 2005 (UTC)