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Restoration of cast section edits

Brandon, I restored the material you removed for a second time. This cited material was previously explained at 19:57 on 28 May 2007, here: Talk:Children_of_Men#Cast_section. —Viriditas | Talk 23:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

It has since been restored. Arcayne () 22:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I restored it here. I'm not following or understanding your comment. —Viriditas | Talk 22:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Your understanding is not required, Viriditas. I was referrring to BYT's edits that have been restored. - Arcayne () 22:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Please watch Misplaced Pages:Etiquette. Understanding is required. If you can't be civil, please don't edit here. BYT's edits were not restored, contrary to SlimVirgin's edit summary. To help you understand the problem, I restored edits that were removed as unsourced when they were sourced. I hope that clears up the problem. —Viriditas | Talk 23:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

General understanding is required; your specific understanding is what is not required, Viriditas. Please learn to know the difference. Any by the way, thank you for editing out your uncivil remarks from the removed posts. Please maintain that same level of personal vigilance in your future posts, as it creates a better editing environment, wheher in this article or in other places. - Arcayne () 23:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I haven't edited out any "uncivil remarks" because I never made them during this discussion, nor can you show that I have. I have, however, removed your incivil comment "Your understanding is not required, Viriditas." Please try to stick to facts. Specific understanding is required; if an editor makes comments that don't make any sense, then communication is not possible. Please take a look at Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines for help. Furthermore, please try to discuss the topic under discussion and refrain from commenting on the "understanding" of other editors, as that is a good example of incivility. Thanks for your attention in this matter and for your help trying to improve the quality of the discourse. —Viriditas | Talk 00:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

LOL. Perhaps you might want to consider following the letter of your own advice, my young friend. Assuming that people haven't read posts clearly is pretty uncivil. And no, you don't need to respond to this. Follow your own adivce and keep your comments focused on the article. - Arcayne () 00:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be reading things into this discussion that don't exist. I don't see where it I have assumed "that people haven't read posts clearly." Perhaps the words, "I'm not following or understanding your comment" and "To help you understand the problem, I restored edits that were removed as unsourced when they were sourced. I hope that clears up the problem" threw you off, I don't know. But your continued removal of editorial comments and addition of incivil comments while writing in the edit summary, "please do not alter my posts, Viriditas - that in itself is considered disruptive and uncivil" can be considered hypocritical. After all, you've been altering my edits to this article for more than a month. Please feel free to help improve or discuss this article at any time without removing topical comments. If you can't do that, ask a neutral administrator for help. Thanks. —Viriditas | Talk 00:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Please revisit the Diff here to see where you have specifically suggested that people haven't read the material as much as you. Pointing out a fact is never disruptive. Pointing out an opinion usually is. That it is a fact that I asked you not to alter the wording of my posts is a fact. That i removed some of your posts as either uncivil or personal attacks is also a fact, as defined by both WPA and CIVIL. My edits are to improve the article and - when you are less than polite - to help train you to become more polite. I hope that helps improve your understanding of the stiuation. Happy editing. :) - Arcayne () 00:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The diff implies nothing of the kind, and none of my comments could be considered a violation of WP:NPA and WP:CIV. Your comments could only be construed as off-topic since they neither address my original statement or the topic of this article. Viriditas | Talk 06:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. The diff points out clearly what I claimed. Now, perhaps you might wish to refocus on the article, hmm? - Arcayne () 03:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The diffs do not support any of your claims. —Viriditas | Talk 03:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Contemporary references

Regarding the "Allahu Akbar march", if you will, this reminds me of a video I once saw on television showing members of Hezbollah at an outdoors rally. Specifically, the bright green-colored clothing and white horse make me believe this is a reference to Hezbollah and/or that video specifically.
Unfortunately, I don't have a source for that video. Perhaps someone else does? The white horse from the video is really what suggests this to me, as I remember a "leader-type" trotting in front of the crowd on a white horse. Also, isn't the white horse pretty out of place in the crowd of people marching? Last, of course, note that they are chanting "Allahu Akbar" and have a banner with Arabic text. I'm interested in others thoughts. Modul8r 16:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The way this article has been evolving (and I'm not saying I agree with this standard), you would have to find a published citation linking the sequence in the film to the rally you saw. Personally, I don't think it has anything specifically to do with Hezbollah, but as it stands both of our viewpoints would now be excised as WP:OR. BYT 19:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I've got several citations for the march and "Allahu Akbar", but they are trivial, hence I have not included them. If anyone feels they should be included, let me know and I'll share the material. —Viriditas | Talk 00:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please share that material. - Arcayne () 23:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Why do you feel they should be included? —Viriditas | Talk 05:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Because someone asked for them. Because you offered to share that material. Because it might make the article better by leading to better sources. I hope that clearly explains matters. - Arcayne () 10:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Read the part where I also said, "If anyone feels they should be included..." —Viriditas | Talk 13:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Read the part where I asked for it, which suggests rather clearly that we shoulkd see them to see if they should be included. This is the second request for material. Please provide it. - Arcayne () 14:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I said, "If anyone feels they should be included". The actual sources have no bearing on the importance or relevance of the topic. Surely you must see that. —Viriditas | Talk 14:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

So, this is me, asking you to impart the sources you have offered. Allow me to decide for myself as to their import or relevance. Will you present them or not? This is the third time I've asked you to present them. Either you have them, or you don't. - Arcayne () 14:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

First of all, most of them are already in the article. Second of all, I asked you why you feel the march and "Allahu Akbar" should be included. Simple question. I'll give you a hint. Some sources claim that there is an Islamic subtext to the film. Do you think that is true?(without looking at my sources, I think it was the BBC who popularized that claim) Personally, I think the film touches upon every religion, so I would like to add Islamic references only to balance out the religion section. —Viriditas | Talk 15:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, i guess I don't want to play your game anymore. I've asked politely three separate times for the references, so I could make up my own mindas to what they represent - not what you think they are, but what I think they are. Four times now, you have avoided presenting them. You don't want a viewpoint different from your own; that seems clear.

And you wonder why people think you have OWN issues. - Arcayne () 15:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed the personal attack you made. Please address the topic, not the editor. Thank you. —Viriditas | Talk 20:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Please stop removing other people's posts. SlimVirgin 21:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Please stop restoring personal attacks. What part of "comment on content not the contributor" do you dispute? —Viriditas | Talk 03:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Come on, guys. Please stop bickering. My intention wasn't to start something like this. I'll search for that video clip of Hezbollah that I was reminded of and share it with you all if/when I find it. Modul8r 15:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Could someone compile a list of pop-culture/modern day references in the film like the pig balloon at Battersea Power Station/The Ark of Art (Pink Floyd's Animals album), the Banksy paintings in the film and the London 2012 sweater Theo wears. Cheers. 129.234.4.76 21:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, actually on the dvd there is footage of it. 210.56.69.23 00:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Development of bonus features section

Getting back to Phil Sandifer's original suggestion, I would like to work with Brandon and whomever else to develop the bonus feature material, highlighting the Slavoj Zizek material. This will include the DVD bonus features, "The Possibility of Hope" and "'Children of Men' Comments by Slavoj Zizek", "Under Attack", "Theo & Julian", "Futuristic Design", and "Visual Effects:Creating the Baby". I think we should start by making use of primary and secondary sources, expanding the DVD section, and then spiraling out to Themes, Production, and adding a new section, "Interpretations" or "Philosophy" if needed. —Viriditas | Talk 12:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea, V. Hope we can work on this together. BYT 14:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Looking forward to it, BYT! I apologize for any misunderstandings in the past. —Viriditas | Talk 21:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Below all looks great to me, thanks for the effort here, V. No worries. BYT 13:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Preliminary structure

Sections

• Themes/Interpretation/Philosophy
• Production
• DVD

Primary sources

• DVD (List sections for development here. Please replace "develop" with content to be added or proposed)
  • "The Possibility of Hope" (documentary, need running time)
    • develop; new Philosophy/Interpretations section?
      • Slavoj Zizek, James Lovelock, Naomi Klein (add secondary source ref here)
  • "'Children of Men' Comments by Slavoj Zizek" (need running time)
    • develop; new Philosophy/Interpretations section?
      • Slavoj Zizek
  • "Under Attack" (need running time)
    • Move to production section; where?
  • "Theo & Julian" (need running time)
    • Update Theo and Julian entries in cast section
  • "Futuristic Design" (need running time)
    • Move to production section; update Style and design
  • "Visual Effects:Creating the Baby" (need running time)
    • Move to production section; update Single-shot sequences
    • Fair use screenshot would be helpful

Secondary sources

• Articles (this will be a reflist to link to the above section)

Spoiler warning

This page needs a spoiler warning before the plot section.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.104.24 (talk • contribs) 11:48, June 30, 2007 (UTC)

Plot summaries don't need spoiler warnings.
Jim Dunning | talk 02:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Even if they give away the ending? Hmm.

Yeah. It's called Being a Grown-Up. If you don't want to learn about the plot of the movie, maybe avoid reading the big, bold subsection, called "Plot." - Arcayne () 08:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Kindertotenlieder

Arcayne: I am undoing your revert of my addition to the article. It is against the policy of[REDACTED] to simply delete entries you think might need improving. To quote: "Do not revert changes simply because someone makes an edit you consider problematic, biased, or inaccurate. Improve the edit, rather than reverting it." (from the "Help:Reverting" article). If you thought my addition needed a citation, you should have either provided one or flagged it for discussion, not removed the whole section right after I posted it.

As for your opinion that a cite to a "review or article" is needed, I don't think a further one is needed. Two reasons: (1) You don't want to cite to a secondary source (movie review, article, etc.) if you can cite to a primary source (e.g., Kindertotenlieder, movement I). Just as "movie xxxx quotes Shakespeare's play yyyyy" is better supported by "Shakespeare play yyyy, line 359" than by "bob of the miami tribune says xxxx quotes Shakespeare," so "Kindertotenlieder, movement I" is a better cite than "bob's review says the movie uses Mahler." Primary sources are good because they are easily verifiable, which is the point of having cites. And (2), you don't need a footnote if you cite the source in the text, as I did.

Gzoek 00:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

A cite is needed for Gzoek's contribution, otherwise it is original research and therefore not allowed in an encyclopedia. Just commenting that the piece is included in the soundtrack is fine; afterall, other works by Mahler, Handel and the Stones are appropriately listed. However, this contribution begins with "One subtle use of music . . .", which in itself is OR (because of the word "subtle") unless we are quoting a critic. And although the juxtaposition of the conversation about dead children with a work titled "Songs on the Death of Children" may seem like an obvious connection, it is not the place of WP editors to make that connection, unless we are referencing a reliable source's analysis doing the same.

Maybe Arcayne didn't need to remove the contribution to make his point, but I too would hesitate to put a {{cn}} tag on a fully sourced GA article when all the contributor has to do is add the cite. I can understand Gzoek perceiving the removal as a revert, but Arcayne was careful and constructive in his edit summary: "can you cite a review or article that notes that as well? We cannot use it w/out citation". It doesn't appear he made the change because the edit is "problematic, biased, or inaccurate"; it just needs a reliable source. In actuality, we cannot rely on "primary sources" and do have to cite a secondary source. That is WP policy.

Gzoek, can you provide a cite? Otherwise the contribution needs to be removed or appropriately merged into the preceding paragraph.
Jim Dunning | talk 01:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the uncited statements from the soundtrack section, but to avoid the perception by anyone that I am simply trying to remove it arbitrarily, I am placing it here, pending proper citation.

One subtle use of music in the film is the scene at Jasper's house in which he tells Kee and Miriam the story of the death of Theo and Jullian's son. The music playing in the background is the first movement from Gustav Mahler's Kindertotenlieder ("Songs on the Death of Children").

- Arcayne () 02:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I see the point that is being made. Now I have a question: is there a way that I can put this information in that doesn't cause a problem? Could I simply remove the "subtle" language, and put something like this: "During the scene at Jasper's house in which he tells Kee and Miriam the story of the death of Theo's son, the music playing in the background is the first movement from Mahler's Kindertotenlieder ("Songs on the Death of Children")."? Is this still OR? If so, why isn't the synopsis considered OR as well?

I wasn't trying to interject my interpretation of the movie; I would simply like to point out the fact that a certain piece is played in a certain scene. I can't find a reputable source that mentions this fact. Any ideas?

Gzoek 20:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Funny you should mention that: there have been many discussions about plot synopses being WP:OR, and most recognize that WP editors are walking a fine line when describing the plot (not to mention having concerns about WP:COPYVIO). Style guidelines require that only essential elements be included (I happen to think that this article's plot description is far too detailed, but that's another discussion), so I would ask if noting that that particular piece is played is essential to an encyclopedia article on the movie? If you note that work, then why not every piece of music in the movie? If you do that, then the article degenerates into a trivia list.

Now I can see a discussion of that selection in the themes section (because I suspect that its placement in the movie is intentional — your recognition of a "certain piece played in a certain scene" is equally alluring to me), but, again, it would have to be a reference to a reliable source's analysis of it. So, in the end, unless you (or another editor) can find someone's else's discussion of Kindertotenlieder in CoM, it can't be done. Sorry.
Jim Dunning | talk 20:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

In regards to the subject of all synopses being OR, I guess that would be the case, but the very nature of WP allows for a consensual outline of the film's events to develop itself out and take shape. I italicized events, as they do not specifically - in the evaluative sense - speak to what is not implied or inferred. What everyone sees on the screen and subsequently writes about is indeed usually considered a primary reference, but when a great many people agree as to the events as they are depicted, and these are backed up by secondary sources (reviewers and the like). Furthermore, these secondary sources have the ability to speak to those implied or inferred matters, as to the usage of a piece of music, or sepia-toning for effect. We don't get to do that. We are sort of like Marvel Comics' The Watcher, in that we can observe and report, but not partake of the opinions ourselves.

I hope that helps. - Arcayne () 21:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

THIS entire movie is very simple-minded and engineered. how come there are still dogs????? no dog could be more than 18 years and race at best condition...
there was a very bad mistake with the story line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deborgio (talk • contribs) 03:11, July 4, 2007 (UTC)

I think theres only one example of simple-mindedness being shown here...maybe you should go back to something a little less complex. Like not saying anything. 172.207.140.131 21:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Errr, because the movie was positing the problems of looming extinction caused by HUMAN infertility. I don't think dogs would really be affected by that, unless their existence required people to pet them.... :) - Arcayne () 04:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

My impression of this page is that it is rather pretentious - it is making a poor film seem somehow important.--Spanker LUFC 14:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Please take your concerns to the critics listed on Rotten Tomatoes, who have given this "poor film" a 91% overall approval rating. Since you obviously know better than these professionals, perhaps you can take the opportunity to teach them a few things. —Viriditas | Talk 08:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Viriditas. I was aware of rotten tomatoes' (and imdb's) glowing coverage when I made the post, which was made out of frustration at the disparity between my disappointment with the film (and that of about half the people reviewing it on lovefilm) and the coverage on this page, which makes it sound like a masterpiece. Which it must be, obviously, silly me. I am vaguely aware that part of the point of[REDACTED] is that an individual's opinions are neither here nor there, that you have to reference something, so I will not comment further on the film, much as I would love to. I will consider searching through the rotten tomatoes reviews, and elsewhere, and posting something more in line with wikipedia's requirements. --Spanker LUFC 12:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Intro: "Britain, the last functioning government"...

Er, the propagandistic TV ad certainly implies this, but that doesn't make it so within the film's canon. Mdiamante 06:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

FA?

Has anyone ever considered nominating this article for FA status? I'd definitely support (and it's not necessarily because the movie is my favourite of all time, along with Titanic and Citizen Kane).

Also, can someone add a "See also" section? The article seems to end too abruptly... Orane (talk) 01:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure it's a Misplaced Pages principle somewhere that great articles don't need "See also" sections. I think the logic is that if something needs also seeing -ahem- then it should be part of the prose somewhere. Seegoon 22:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I've heard about that, but it's not principle per se, simply preference. 'See Also' is still outlined in our Manual of Style. Orane (talk) 17:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The outline does not mean that you must use those sections. It merely describes the most common sections and their usage. —Viriditas | Talk 23:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know. That's why I said it's simply preference to place the see also section. (Seegoon had said you're not supposed to have it, and I told him/her not true. You can still have it, since it's still outlined in our MoS.) Personally, I love to see it. But you don't have to put it. Orane (talk) 01:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

What would you like to see in a "see also" section for this article? I can think of some things related to immigration or infertility, or even religion, but I'm not sure how useful it would be here. —Viriditas | Talk 01:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it isn't needed, really. - Arcayne () 02:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Symbolic Use of Music in the Film

We should have a goal of adding a section specifically about the use of music in the film as a means of highlighting an aspect of the action onscreen. The filmmakers do this at least twice that I have noticed.

Kindertotenlieder. This was discussed earlier in the discussion. During the scene at Jasper's house in which he tells Kee and Miriam the story of the death of Theo and Jullian's son, the music playing in the background is the first movement from Gustav Mahler's Kindertotenlieder ("Songs on the Death of Children").

Arbeit macht frei. The Libertines' song Arbeit Macht Frei plays during the scene at the internment camp. Arbeit macht frei is the famous slogan placed on the gates of many Nazi concentration camps, and the song is about concentration camp members. As the article discusses, the scene in the movie alludes to Nazi camps, and using this song at that moment in the film seems like the filmmakers are underlining a point.

These are just two examples I have found. Given how intentional these seem to be, I would bet there are other examples in the film. Unfortunately I have not found any secondary sources which discuss this aspect of the movie, and don't have much time to spend on wikipedia. So I pass the challenge on to all of you: find more examples of music used in this way, find sources to cite, and write a new (sub)section for the article exploring this technique in the film. I think it's worth doing; it would add yet another interesting layer to this movie.

Gzoek 06:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

It goes even farther than that. According to an interview with the director, some of the music was used in the film because it happened to be playing while they were writing the screenplay. But yes, every song in the film has a specific, direct meaning attached to the scene. —Viriditas | Talk 23:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible Trivia

When the protagonist and his cannabis growing friend are in the greenhouse used for growing the cannabis, the song playing in the background is "Life in a Glasshouse" by Radiohead. byelf2007 09/11/07

Film's cars

The article currently states " Cars were made to resemble modern ones at first glance, although a closer look made them seem unfamiliar." Some of them are clearly recognizable: the main characters drive a Fiat Multipla during the ambush scene, and later flee to the safehouse in a Renault Scénic. Other cars are the Fiat Ducato (the Fishes' black van; perhaps it's a Peugeot or Citroën sister), Peugeot 1007 and Renault Modus (traffic cars); the limousine that takes Theo to his cousin's is clearly British, I don't know whether Bentley, Jaguar or Rolls-Royce. The differences between the film's and the real models are basically the front and rear ends, which are blackened and whose lights and grilles are different. I don't know if this piece of information is relevant enough, but the French-Italian origin of the car design could be added to the article, couldn't it? -- NaBUru38 00:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you seem to know a lot about cars! :) Unfortunately, your keen spotting of these models isn't really citable, and there is also the issue of notability. An argument occurred early in the article's creation wherein I wanted to add a fairly advanced-looking weapon, and was correctly nixed as to the lack of notability. I am only hoping that I am addressing it better with you than was done for me. When considering whether something is notable, ask yourself if the info you want to add is vital to the subject of the article. If it is, include it and hope others feelthe same way. If you get reverted, discuss it. If you aren't reverted, then at least one other person felt it noteworthy, too. :)

Again, good attention to detail, NaBUru38. - Arcayne () 05:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I seems the Scénic is actually a four-door Avantime. Did I just say four-door!? That means it was specially made for the film! (The Internet Movie Car Database shows in fact nearly every model featured in the film, most of them barely visible in screen) Well, I would say the chosen cars are "strange" in the case of the Fiats and French models (Renaults' tails, Multipla's bonnet, Peugeots' mouths), which are the ones clearly shown. I should look for some reliable website stating this, but it might get impossible. -- NaBUru38 19:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

A minor query on the plot section

In the fourth paragraph of the plot section, it details the ambush of the main characters in their car when they are traveling through the woods, goes on to say that the police soon follow them, but omits that Luke (Chiwetel Ejiofor) shoots the police officers dead when they are pulled over for inspection. I was wondering if anyone else felt that this was important enough to mention as it caught my attention when I didn't see it included. --Spobbs 12:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Please excuse me for not initially placing my edit under old text. --Spobbs 13:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Do whatever you like as long as you keep the plot section short and to the point, sticking to major plot points. —Viriditas | Talk 11:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Differences from the novel?

No section on how the film differs from the novel? That's too bad. I always rather enjoy reading about that. :) RobertM525 09:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It can be added, but requires careful sourcing as some editors will take the opportunity to write editorials. I think we should have at least two paragraphs on the subject. I have enough material for at least one large sourced paragraph at this time. —Viriditas | Talk 12:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's please place the paragraphs in the Production section, perhaps following or merged with the first paragraph that addresses the adaptation process.
Jim Dunning | talk 15:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds great. Only problem is, the "one paragraph" I have has now turned into four. :( —Viriditas | Talk 09:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Cinematical.com a reliable source?

I just fixed a ref format for a Clive Owen writing credit. The source is Cinematical.com, which appears to be a blog. The actual interview appears legit, and the author Kim Voynar has a net presence, so is this a reliable source?
Jim Dunning | talk 16:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

A lot of film websites straddle the line between blogs and reliable sources. Interviews and set visits conducted by them however, are reliable. Alientraveller (talk) 10:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Jesus Christ exclamations

I was hoping to discuss the second sentence of the following (from the Myth and Religion section of the article):

Kee's pregnancy is revealed to Theo in a barn, alluding to the manger of the Nativity scene, and when Theo asks Kee who the father of her child is, she jokingly responds, "I'm a virgin." Additionally, when other characters discover Kee and her baby, they respond with "Jesus Christ" or the sign of the cross.

I am not finding the original article (by Richstatter, Katje (Mar-Apr 2007). "Two Dystopian Movies...and their Visions of Hope" (Reprint). Tikkun 22-2), and the publishing magazine, Tikkun, isn't available for article search outside of a subscription. Because of this unavailability to verify that the exclamations of Jesus Christ (or the making the sign of the cross) being intended as a Christian symbolism connection between Jesus' and Dylan's birth, I am concerned that an OR connection has been made. It would seem a more plausible explanation that these exclamations to be of surprise and awe at a highly unexpected surprise and not of identification/comparison with the Christian Messiah. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arcayne (talk • contribs) 05:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Jandry2 changed the material and added his observation "Theo asks Kee who the father of her child is, she jokingly responds, "I'm a virgin" on 05:07, 26 March 2008.. The original sourced material should read:

The film has been noted for its use of Christian symbolism; for example, British terrorists named "Fishes" protect the rights of refugees. Opening on Christmas Day in the United States, critics compared the characters of Theo and Kee with Joseph and Mary, calling the film a "modern-day Nativity story": Kee's pregnancy is revealed to Theo in a barn, alluding to the manger of the Nativity scene, and when other characters discover Kee and her baby, they respond with "Jesus Christ" or the sign of the cross.

Jandry2 isn't wrong, but his addition is not supported by the sources in question. The article in Tikkun states:

The need to find or create meaning seems to be one commonality of human existence--through storytelling, myth, or religion, we can connect to our core decency, a place untouched by the vagaries of the world....Without the ability to reproduce, human extinction is imminent, and in this context it seems plausible--since it's clear that animals can still breed--that God's wrath toward humankind, or our own inability to leave genetics alone, might be the reason....Rations include antidepressants and suicide pills, and citizens like Theo (Clive Owen) plod along, self-medicating, averting their eyes to the caged refugees, protesting religious zealots and random violence. Theo is...recruited...to be a part of a guerrilla group called the fishes...There is a class component to this struggle, with parallels to liberation theology movements, but...the resistance forces are plagued with the same cutthroat hierarchy as the dominant society. Theo is entrusted with transporting Kee (Claire-hope Ashitey), who is miraculously pregnant--a fact tht is revealed to him in a barn (manger). The religious allusions range from blatant to subtle, and Western (upon seeing Kee and her newborn, the most common response is either "Jesus Christ" or signing the cross) to Eastern (Kee's midwife chanting Tibetan mantras) expressions. Kee's child is the last hope for human survival, a spark that transforms Theo, who commits his whole self--running barefoot (literally) over the rubble--to help her escape. And though organized religion is mostly portrayed as reactionary--the two sects of protesters are the "Renouncers" and "Repenters"--the quest itself might suggest something different. The citizens of Children of Men are disconnected from nature and themselves, a split that suggests a spiritual crisis, and a yearning to return to the basics; no killing, stealing, lying or coveting? Or better yet, the healing values of tolerance, faith, brotherly love, and altruism.

If he's interested, I believe I can help him find a source, but I don't have it front of me. However, I do have a printed copy of both Tikkun and the Omaha World Herald in front of me, both of which can be found in the EBSCO database system of every major public library. I don't see any "OR connection" except for the addition by Jandry2. After all, the theme in question is myth and religion, so it's right on topic and its covered by many sources. Typically, religious believers aren't concerned with "plausible explanations", so I don't see how such concerns are relevant, but by all means, find a reliable source that addresses that very question and add a rebuttal. —Viriditas | Talk 07:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

For Jandry2: Steve Vineberg in Christian Century (02/06/07, Vol. 124, Issue 3) writes: "In James's scheme, Kee is the "key" to the future of humanity. Cuarón underscores the idea that she is also an earthbound version of the Virgin Mary, carrying the miracle child of an unseen father (she isn't sure of his identity) whose birth will change the world..." Vineberg appears to be familiar with the novel, so that statement could confuse people, considering that Kee isn't in the book. —Viriditas | Talk 07:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the error in Jandry's edit. It confused matters. - Arcayne () 08:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Omaha World-Herald

From the eighth paragraph in the article from Fischbach, Bob (2007-01-05). "Movie Review: Acting in 'Children of Men' makes futuristic film engrossing". Omaha World-Herald. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help):

The almost mythical Human Project is rumored to be working towards a new society.

—Viriditas | Talk 08:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry; may I ask how you are finding that particular article? I am unable to locate it via typical search. - Arcayne () 08:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I explained in the above section EBSCO database. You can find it in every major public library, or access it from home with your library card. —Viriditas | Talk 08:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I was unable to locate it using such. I should point out that a great many libraries typically do not have EBSCO resources. Could I trouble you to point out what criteria are used when sources aren't readily verifiable? I am not doubting the source, per se; I am asking hte question from the point of view of someone who may not have access (for verification purposes) to either EBSCO or JSTOR resources. - Arcayne () 08:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you name a public library in your area that does not offer EBSCO or similar article databases in 2008? Almost every library in the U.S. pays a fee to these companies for their patrons to access archival articles. The criteria is basically to do what you have done: place a message on the talk page asking for verification. However, it is my understanding that the WP:REFDESK is used for this purpose, as is a related page composed of Wikipedans who have offered to search these databases for interested editors. I can't recall the name of the subpage right now, but someone else will chime in with it. The page has a list of editors who are willing to look up articles for you. —Viriditas | Talk 09:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

With respect, I could name four, but because of privacy concerns (as well as the likelihood that the geographical absence of EBSCO or JSTOR isn't unique), I am going to abstain from mentioning them. Here on the mainland (presuming again that you in Hawaii), municipal libraries sometimes don't have the resources to subscribe to the online db's.

As far as Refdesk goes, i think we both know that they take forever, if they bother answering at all. You will recall that a claim that we both were curious about sourcing (re: Lennon mentions in a certain NY guide) remains, many months later, still non-verified. I think while its great in theory, the practical expectation is that Refdesk simply isn't all that helpful given our time constraints.

However, that might be a topic for discussion elsewhere, ie. how often should we utilize atypical databases that aren't universally accessible (or are fee-based subscription services). - Arcayne () 09:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Arcayne, I'm wondering whether in your sourcing philosophy you're confusing the guide recommending not to add links requiring registration or subscription (see Misplaced Pages:External_links#Sites_requiring_registration) with Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. We shouldn’t add links that people can’t actually access but that has nothing to do with verifiability. To be verifiable doesn’t mean a source needs to be easily accessible on the internet, it means it needs to be a WP:Reliable source. Are you still worried about the Lennon source? I thought that was resolved ages ago, don’t you remember when Viriditas even uploaded photocopies of the source, linked to the text in Google Books, and even contacted the publisher and confirmed it? What more verification do you feel is necessary? I see it’s also on AmazonOnlineReader here. --MPerel 11:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi M. No, I wasn't confusing the two articles. When a source is questioned, the source's reliability depends, I think, on not just taking the editor at their word but being able to verify the source for one's self. As the old adage goes, 'salute optimism; await evidence.'

And no, the Lennon issue was never resolved. The last I heard from you, you were going to come up with new ways for V and I to interact. That was before Christmas. As you seem to be operating just fine with V, I am presuming you felt no other development was necessary. - Arcayne () 11:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Mutant Reviewers from Hell

How does this self-published website used as a source in the body of the article meet the barest, most minimum qualifications for WP:RS? All of the "about" links consist of Rick Roll hoaxes. —Viriditas | Talk 08:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It should perhaps be noted that with today being April 1st, some links all over the net are going to undoubtedly look odd. I did read the review for CoM, and it included the material cited. I am not sure how you are arriving at the conclusion that the site is a self-published one. It appears to be no less credible than, say, Chris Gore's Filmthreat or Box Office Mojo. - Arcayne () 08:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Film Threat is an actual, recognized published film magazine that while initially underground and half-serious, had an enormous distribution channel for a zine. It was in publication from 1985-1997 and even published a video guide. Larry Flynt published the magazine from 1991-1997 and they had an actual editorial board. Gore also hosted a cable TV show. Today's net version of Film Threat features articles and interviews with professionals in their field. Mutant Reviewers from Hell doesn't seem to meet the barest of these qualifications. —Viriditas | Talk 08:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

With respect, it seems to have a fairly solid base of reviews and, whilst it doesn't have all the pretty trappings of funding that the other two have, it seems reliable. It doesn't look to have been around for that long, but has built a steady core of reviews and articles. We haven't agreed on sources before. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. As the claim (the statement regarding the laughter and shouts of children) isn't an extraordinary one, the source isn't required to be extraordinary, just reliable and verifiable. - Arcayne () 08:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I tend to be very open-minded about these things. The general rule is, if you use an unreliable source to support material in an article and another editor questions the source based on WP:RS, then you should find a second source, more reliable than the first, to support the same material. —Viriditas | Talk 09:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I tend to be less open-minded about sources, actually, but I do find myself in disagreement with your characterization of MRfH as "unreliable". As it isn't really such, there really isn't a need to duplicate sources. - Arcayne () 09:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

How does the source you added (named in the heading) meet WP:RS for inclusion in this article? Please take a look at this link for guidance. As the guideline says, ...self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable...if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so. Therefore, I request another source that meets the basic, minimum requirements for reliability. It's a very simple request. The website you added is a personal website belonging to Justin Olivetti, a horror film fan. —Viriditas | Talk 09:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Might I ask you to point out where the site indicates it is "self-published" or a personal website? As the site clearly isn't a blog or forum chat or similar material, I am curious as to how you arrived at that assessment. I would point out that using Internic to determine the owner of the site isn't the same as calling it a personal website. Many websites are owned by single individuals, and this doesn't interfere with their reliability. Lastly, I would pont out that even if it is self-published, it seems to fulfill the criteria for inclusion of WP:SELFPUB- Arcayne () 09:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd also point out that apparently, Rick Roll hoaxes are permeating the web today. - Arcayne () 09:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

USA Today refers to the website as a "horror film fan site", in other words, a personal web site: "The idea of an evil doll come to life is a fun, freaky concept," says longtime fan Justin Olivetti, 28, a youth pastor in Livonia, Mich., who runs the horror film fan site www.mutantreviewers.com. "I'll definitely see Seed of Chucky." —Viriditas | Talk 10:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Olivetti is a pastor who runs a personal website; In other words, the site fails inclusion criteria for WP:SELFPUB. —Viriditas | Talk 10:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not seeing how Olivetti - if he is in fact the sole person running the entire site (after all, we are speaking of USA Today) fails any of the seven criteria noted at selfpub. Using the reasoning you've suggested, we could not use info from a privately-owned Jack the Ripper site, even if it uses solid information, nor could we utilize information from websites about San Francisco burritos. I simply don't see any failing in the Selfpub criteria. If you could point out which of the seven listed criteria for inclusion that the site fails, that would be appreciated. - Arcayne () 10:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

And just to be very clear, yes Olivetti is in fact the sole person running the entire website, and that has been confirmed by USA Today and a simple whois. —Viriditas | Talk 11:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Olivetti is not a film critic who has been published by reliable film journals or newspapers. He is a pastor and the owner of a fansite - a personal website where he self-publishes film reviews. That website doesn't meet the minimum standards for inclusion. Please stop adding personal websites and find a reliable source that has an editorial board and fact-checking capabilities. This is the hallmark of a reliable source. —Viriditas | Talk 10:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. That his website has published/uploaded film reviews is not disputed. What he does in his day job is not of consequence here. The site is not a fansite, as CoM (clearly not a horror film) was reviewed. I am not sure how you are determining that he - and he alone - is publishing each and every one of the film reviews listed, but I don't see any indication of that. As far as an "editorial board" or "fact-checking capabilities", could you point out where in the policies or guidelines these new criteria are stipulated?

I have been poite, and would appreciate you addressing solely the content of my posts and not me. I have asked for you to specifically note how the website fails any of the seven criteria of WP:SELFPUB (if indeed it is a self-published website, and not simply a personally-owned one). If you could do that, I would appreciate it. - Arcayne () 11:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I have only addressed your addition of unreliable websites as sources and the removal of reliable sources as "unreliable" - even in cases where you did not check the sources. Per SELFPUB, Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves. This article is not about Olivetti or his website. Our standards of inclusion are higher and require WP:RS that are not self-published, have editorial boards, and are known for rigorous fact-checking. Authors should be either noted film critics in their field of expertise, or journalists working under editorial oversight in a reliable publication. It's very simple. I've asked to you a supply a more reliable source to replace the one you have added. Please do so. —Viriditas | Talk 11:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

1. Simon, Jeff (2007-01-04). "Life Force: Who carries the torch of hope when the world is without children?". The Buffalo News. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
2. Children of Men., People. 1/8/2007, Vol. 67, Issue 1.
3. Dana Stevens (2006-12-21). "The Movie of the Millennium". Slate. Retrieved 2007-02-15. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
4. Richstatter, Katje (2007). "Two Dystopian Movies...and their Visions of Hope". Tikkun. 22 (2). {{cite journal}}: |format= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

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