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Revision as of 10:41, 11 April 2008

Misplaced Pages Mediation Cabal
Article	Saeb Erekat
Status	open
Request date	Unknown
Requesting party	Unknown
Parties involved	Jaakobou, Nickhh
Mediator(s)	Sceptre 17:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Request details

There is a long going dispute over the "controversy" section in the article. After 7 months of discussions it's clear that some form of official/semi-official mediation is needed.

Current conflicting versions can be seen here: .

Who are the involved parties?

What's going on?

• Current conflicting versions can be seen here: .

Version supported by Jaakobou has been built up from a small criticism compromize achived in September 2006. In September 2007 an editor insisted the event was not notable and ever since there'd been discussions and further source inspection leading to a larger and heavily sourced version. Frankly, after 7 months of being forced to inspect each and every source and prove (to my recollection) 14 high quality sources considered this event serious, I'm not willing to go back to the mini-version I've agreed to back in 2006; certainly not after I've repeatedly suggested this compromise before (and during) being forced to do much work. In any event, Nickhh version is inappropriate being that it's (a) untrue to the sources found, and (b) uses no sources at all for the biggest controversy. Jaakobou 19:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC) minor clarification 08:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

What would you like to change about that?

• Go back to the well cited encyclopedic version. Jaakobou 19:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: um sorry to be a little sarcastic here, but surely this simply translates as "Go back in its entirety to the version that I wrote and that I insist on having here, despite the objections of virtually every passing editor who's come across it in the last year"? (Those objections being based around a series of Misplaced Pages policies, including WP:BLP, WP:UNDUE, WP:NOTABILITY and WP:POV, as well as WP:READABILITY. Sorry, I made that last one up of course). Are you here for mediation, or in a bid to get quasi-official backing for your version to be hammered back in? --Nickhh (talk) 21:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment, "objections of virtually every passing editor" is, pardon my own reply sarcasm, a bunch of gabble; since versions have changed considerably along this time period. This gabble includes also the mention of WP:NOTABILITY, since it was clearly established both here and also in direct communications with Nickhh on the article talk page. Jaakobou 23:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • For info - accusing me of writing a "bunch of gabble" isn't sarcasm, it's simply an oddly-worded insult. And you have never "established" notability, you have merely asserted it, which is a very different thing. --Nickhh (talk) 08:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Mediator notes

I'm accepting this to give some guidance on guidelines and policies; don't squeeze my neck based on your opinion of the case.

If I am correct in my assumption, this article is about a living person. We should be very careful on how we balance things in these sorts of articles. I'm not making any judgement on the sources; that can be made on the talk page.

There are two main objections to the section: the first is that the "controversy" section takes up about two-thirds of the page's code and source's. Looking over your version, there is some blatant NPOV violations (i.e. air-quoting the word massacre) The second is the existence of a section titled "controversy": such a word implies a point of view right off the bat and is discouraged per NPOV#Article structure, WTA, CRIT and MOS#Article titles, headings and sections.

The first will require some tending to. Try to reduce the number of sources and the POV so a reader doesn't get any impression: remember, we don't call Osama bin Laden a terrorist (we say "MI6, the DHS, etc. have classified bin Laden as a terrorist), so we shouldn't say things about people of lesser notoriety. The easy way to deal with the second is to get rid of the controversy section, and try to integrate it into talking about his political career. If this has proved helpful, thanks. Sceptre 17:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

See #Clarification on the word massacre. Jaakobou 20:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

p.s. original version agreed upon in September 2006 was nice and short, but Eleland was fighting with me for 7 months claiming the incident wasn't notable enough to have even a single 3 row paragraph. After 7 months where the incident was clearly validated as notable, he and Nickhh replaced it with a version that has exactly zero sources for the massacre claims incident. diff Jaakobou 20:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The way it's being used implies a POV. Sceptre 20:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sceptre,

1. Erekat's POV was well presented that he stood by his previous statements and completely rejected the UN report. There is no way to avoid the fact that his perspective was rejected and heavily criticised on numerous sources, including 3 separate CNN anchors and even within the UN document. I'm more than open to include quality sources that justify his "massacre, at least 500 killed, no more Jenin camp, they are hiding bodies in secret graves" claims, but those sources don't really exist since he made an ugly blood libel on international broadcasting, which was rejected once the evidence was available.
2. Had my opposition were truly interested in a balanced version (like Ryan Postlethwaite and Rama before him) rather than removing this incident entirely from the article, Eleland (and now Nickhh) would not have claimed WP:NOTABILITY for 7 months now, forcing scrutiny over sources (I had to make phone calls to both Jerusalem Post and also Washington Times) and expansion of the section. In my opinion, Eleland and Nickhh notability claims combine false personal attacks and apply disruptive WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude; as they compare CNN, BBC, Jerusalem Post, Washington Times, Yediot Ahronoth, Haaretz, the UN... to:
   1. "obscure conspiracy theories of right-wing bloggers" Eleland, 15:51, 20 October 2007
   2. "These "controversies" you want covered in great detail and in scrappy English are not notable outside of the right-wing blog world of Little Green Footballs" Nickhh, 07:26, 7 April 2008

With respect, Jaakobou 23:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

OK I've left a fuller response below, in the "discussion" section, but since you keep posting in this section I'll reply here as well - seriously Jaakobou there is no point in asking for mediation when you fail to understand the fundamental point at stake. The issue at hand is not whether he made accusations of a massacre or not and whether this was widely reported in the mainstream media (and in any event this IS now noted in the current version of the article). You've spent an awful lot of energy proving to me and others something that we already know. The issue is about the notability of the alleged controversy that followed that, and whether we should highlight in a massive section the one or two right wing op-ed pieces that attempted to label him a liar. When will this point finally sink in? And also, if you want to do something constructive with this article, you might care to address the separate points I have made to you about the errors and duplication you have introduced to another section of the page. --Nickhh (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Clarification on the word massacre

How many times do you need CNN to confront you for the use of the word massacre on CNN, BBC and others to qualify for a mention of this wording on wikipedia? p.s. the massacre claims were refuted and rejected by multiple high quality sources, including Palestinian sources.

• "Mr. Erakat, you probably know that you've come under some widespread criticism here in the United States for initially charging that the Israelis were engaged in a massacre in Jenin. Perhaps 500 Palestinians murdered in that massacre, you suggested. But now all of the evidence suggests that perhaps 53 or 56 Palestinians died in that fighting in Jenin."
• "And I stand by the term "massacres" were committed in the refugee camp.
• "A senior Palestinian Authority official alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated in the light of the evidence that has emerged."
• "Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat rejected the UN report, saying an "Israeli massacre in Jenin's refugee camp clearly happened... and crimes against humanity also took place"."
• "Charges of war crimes committed by Israel were made, while Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre."
• "they are committing massacres"
• "It could lead to massacres"
• "condemns targeting of Israeli civilians yesterday in West Jerusalem and condemns also the massacres committed against Palestinians in Jenin refugee camp, also in Nablus and Bethlehem and other places."
• "In Europe and elsewhere, there are calls for an international investigation into Palestinian charges that Israeli troops massacred hundreds of men, women and children in Jenin."
• "What did he tell you about these allegations that the Israeli military may have been involved in what the Palestinians say was a massacre?"
• "At issue, as you know, Senator Lieberman, is the Palestinian accusation that Israeli military forces engaged in a massacre of Palestinian civilians in Jenin at that refugee camp on the West Bank."
• "yesterday I was in Jenin, and it is perfectly clear that the allegations of massacre in Jenin have caused anti- semitism because it's Israel, the Jewish state and the Jews. It's equally clear from having been there, talked to the UNHRA (ph) U.N. people that the allegations are totally untrue and without foundation."
• "Well, you know, the whole notion of a fact-finding group was born out of a fundamental lie, that Israel had committed a massacre in Jenin. Originally you had Palestinian spokesmen like Saeb Erakat stating on CNN that upwards of 500 Palestinians were killed in Jenin."
• "BEGALA: Well, we should keep in mind, he's the man who wrongly told the world that there had been a massacre at Jericho, wrongly told the world..."
• "OK. You brought up Jenin, and you used the word massacre there. Earlier this week, you said 500 Palestinians were killed there. Do you still stand behind those numbers in the refugee camp? ... But you said specifically and others said 500 in Jenin. Where are you getting the evidence that shows 500 people were killed there? ERAKAT: I don't have evidence.... There are no shootings. One side is shooting. ... They're trying to cover up" .. "Back to my question though... If their numbers are right and your initial numbers are wrong, will you come back here on our network and retract what you said? ERAKAT: Absolutely."

note: i left out at least a dozen links that repeat his claims... i have more if needed. Jaakobou 20:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes

Discussion

My version attempts to do what is suggested above in the mediator notes: present this six year old minor (one-sided) kerfuffle with some partisan media and blog commentators, not as a significant "controversy" but, briefly, as one incident in someone's overall biography and also without all the repetitive and ultimately unilluminating sources. Sure my version can be improved, even maybe with a couple of extra sources, but no mainstream and contemporary profile of Erekat makes even remotely as big a deal of this issue as Jaakobou's preferred version of the page does. Most don't even mention it, such as this one from the BBC, this one sourced to AFP news agency, or even this short one posted on a generally pro-Israel site. Or this one either. And as I've mentioned 100 times on the talk pages Jaakobou, it's got nothing to do with what Erekat did or didn't say at the time, however many links you provide - instead it has everything to do with whether he was deliberately lying and how significant or notable the resultant "controversy" was. ps: do you always go runnning to WP:AE, or pages like MedCab, without even informing the person you were in dispute with that you've gone there? --Nickhh (talk) 20:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

ps: I've added a mention of his use of the word "massacre", with one cite. We don't need more than that - as I've long said, it's not in dispute he used the word and continued to do so after the event. And we certainly don't need a whole detailed debate about how his use of the word proves he must be an unpleasant liar. --Nickhh (talk) 21:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

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