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2004 to present

terrorism

This article shouldn't be in the terror organizations.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.178.161.238 (talk)

The largest terrorist attack in the Histroy of the Middle East was the blowing up of the King David hotel. But according to Misplaced Pages policy the work "terrorism" should not be used. Of course this does not prevent the lable being used routinely on Palestinian organizations. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 07:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The King David Hotel was British military headquarters, and there have been many larger bombings in the Middle East since. However, that doesn't prevent various Misplaced Pages editors from misrepresenting the facts and whining about it. Jayjg 07:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

If the Irgun did not want people whining, perhaps they should have blown fewer people up....ابو علي (Abu Ali) 07:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should rant about "Zionists" and "Zionism" again, that's always amusing. Jayjg 07:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try ابو علي (Abu Ali) 07:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

if irgun was a palestinian group jayig would have no problems calling them terrorists since they are israeli the word terrorist is anti semetic best way to avoid critisism of israeli terrorist groups is to call them anti semetic its why israel can get away with anything —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.91.110 (talk) 05:41, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Irgun used Hitler salute and wore brown shirts.

In 1982, revolutionary socialist Tony Cliff (1917-2000) wrote a very interesting article on Zionism in action (his parents emigrated there in 1902, he left in 1946 after imprisonment by the British during the war). He says "Now Israel is collaborating with the Phalangists in Lebanon, an openly fascist organisation. I’m not surprised. I remember the 1930s when Begin’s (now Israel’s prime minister) organisation, the Irgun, used the Hitler salute and wore the brown shirts".

There must be lots more about the salute and the shirts (though the claim about Phalangists is trickier) - or his testimony would be a reliable source on it's own, at least for some sections of the Irgnu movement. I don't want to interfere with an article that is generally well written, even with such an important snippet, which must be part of a much wider discussion. 86.159.186.70 (talk) 08:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it was important snippet. I would rather oppose adding this to article. Szopen (talk) 13:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 10:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

"I give orders here. I don't take orders from Jews"

This statement is still in the article, and Shmuel Katz' "Days of Fire" is given as a source. However, Katz himself dismisses the quote as apocryphal, in another part of the same paragraph that is not quoted in the article.

Also, the Hebrew version of the book is referenced, when according to Misplaced Pages policy English versions should be used whenever available.

If no one objects, I'll quote the whole paragraph with the British officer's false statement and Katz' dismissal of it, and I'll reference the English translation of the book.--Abenyosef (talk) 17:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're suggesting. The quote from Katz says the Hagana radio broadcast it, not that it's "true". Also, do you have a page number from the English translation? -- Nudve (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The accurate quote is as follows: "Why did the warning to the British go unheeded? The Haganah radio later broadcast a report that on receiving the warning Sir John Shaw, the Chief Secretary of the British administration, had said: "I give orders here. I don't take orders from Jews," and that he had insisted that nobody leave the building. This version may be dismissed. It probably developed from the fact that while some of Shaw's close colleagues and subordinates were killed, he himself went unscathed, and gained credence when Shaw was transferred from Palestine a month later." Days of Fire, By Samuel Katz. Garden City: Doubleday, 1968, Chapter 10, page 94. As you will notice, the critical sentence in bold is omitted from the quote in the article, with no ellipsis shown. Are you fine with quoting the paragraph in full? Please note that another article, King David Hotel bombing, makes reference to Katz' dismissal.--Abenyosef (talk) 18:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, since it's quoted in King David Hotel bombing, why not simply delete the entire quote per WP:UNDUE? After all, it's about the bombing, not Irgun. -- Nudve (talk) 18:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

2 wiki contradictory policies need to be resolved first (NPOV and "refered as terror")

I heard what's going on, and opening a disscusion for this purpose.

NPOV–Hebrew wiki not defined or categorized them "terror", nor did 18 (out of 22)wiki websites in various languages,including in Arabic

--Shevashalosh (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand your message. Can you try to be clearer?

Which Misplaced Pages policies are contradictory, and why would the contradiction be resolved on this page as opposed to, say, Misplaced Pages:Village pump?

Finally, what's done on other language Wikis isn't necessarily relevant to English-language Misplaced Pages.

Thank you. — ] (] · ]) 02:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Exaclly what I said. The policy of NPOV + "words to be avoided" are contradictory to "refer as terror" disputed POV - where they are not designed as such.

Please explain, why is the "referred as terror" policy is preferred over NPOV and "words to avoid" policies in this case of disputed "terror" POV, where they are not even designed as such (and this why the policy of "refered as terror" is only arguementive weather it is pointing at them) and have not been categorized in most of wiki's various languages websites (18 out 22) - which makes it a "minority opinion".

I'm not saying it is not possible. I'm asking for an explanation, as to why is "refer to terror" - (which is also argumentive to pointing at cases - where the group is not designed as such), is preferred over the policy of NPOV + "words to avoid" policy in case of such disputed POV of "terror" of organization like Irgun that where never designed as such and vast majority of wiki's various language website have decided against it!? (Including in Arabic)!?

why is this disputed minority POV of "terror" that is "words to be avoided" sould be included against what people understand of "Irgun" ? - explain your reasoning.

Thank You.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 10:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this policy of NPOV does need to be resolved. Do you think we should remove "Terrorism" categories from ALL articles until it's resolved, or leave it on all possible articles until it's resolved? Because selectively removing it from Jewish articles, while leaving it on other articles, doesn't seem very NPOV to me. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 12:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a different case then other cases on wiki, since "Irgun" was never designed as a terror organization - therfore, it is argumentive (and not a NPOV) and contradictory to the NPOV + "words to be avoided" - and why this specific case needs to wait untill its resolved. --Shevashalosh (talk) 13:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

They are also defined as "attacking an armed forces" --Shevashalosh (talk) 13:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not a "designated terrorist organization" category. A sub-category of Category:Terrorism whose definition is: "This category deals with topics relating to events, organizations, or people that have at some point in time been referred to as terrorism, terrorists, etc., including state terrorism." No mention of official designation. For more on this issue, see Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_July_19#Category:Nationalist_terrorism - TheMightyQuill (talk) 16:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Shevashalosh, you seem to be confused about WP:WTA. It says that:

the words extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter should be avoided unless there is a verifiable citation indicating who is calling a person or group by one of those names in the standard Misplaced Pages format of "X says Y". In an article the words should be avoided in the unqualified "narrative voice" of the article. (emphasis added)

I removed the one instance in which the article referred in the narrative voice to Etzel actions as terrorist. All other instances of the word terrorist are of the form "X described them as terrorists", which is perfectly okay under the WTA guideline.

Keep in mind that WP:WTA is a guideline, not a policy. WP:NPOV, on the other hand, is a policy. In the event of a conflict, a policy trumps a guideline. See WP:POLICY. ("Policies are considered a standard that all users should follow, whereas guidelines are more advisory in nature.") — ] (] · ]) 20:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Shabaz, I was talking about NPOV policy contredictory, Sinse Irgun was never designed as a terror organization, this is a disputed (and argumentive) POV (not NPOV). Therefore, we have 2 contredictory polcies that need to be resovled (since no such category was concluded up till this day).

The only "way out" of this, and I think this will be acceptble on all sides, is to put them under "Militant Organization" - which is by far too harsh (and not true) in my mind, since it is a "NPOV" - used in wiki - on many occassions to describe a "terror organization" (which they are not), yet avoids the wording of it at the same time.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 07:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The base category makes no reference to "official designation." If you feel that's a POV problem, I'd suggest that you bring up Category:Terrorism at WP:Categories for Deletion, rather than simply removing it from a couple articles here or there. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem is not the "refernce" of the category i've added (I have no problem deleting it completly), the problem is NPOV policy contredictory, Sinse "Irgun" was never designed as a terror organization, this why it is a disputed (and argumentive) POV (not NPOV).

--Shevashalosh (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

I already pointed out that I think these terrorist categories are not manageable and neutral.

Here, I just want to add the Irgun was also designated as terro--Shevashalosh (talk) 19:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)rist by Mandate authorities (and is still today by most historians). But Haganah too was designated as such by Mandate authorities ! (but is not any more today except by a few historians anyway)...

I think this illustrates why such categories and simply words are not manageable.

Ceedjee (talk) 19:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Offcaurse the British mandate considered them "terror", they killed their own (armed) soldiars. They are not a NPOV (In this case, contrdictory policy), they are a side in the conflict. The palestinians call the Israeli army a "terror" (to justify blowing up babys in busses) - this is how real terrorist think - those who attack women and children, and the reason why someone who attacked the British mandate armed forces' are generlly not categoriezed as such in 18 (out 22 wikipedia's various languages websites).

--Shevashalosh (talk) 19:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Please read the article. It isn't only the British who labelled IZL terrorists. It's also The New York Times, the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, the Jewish Agency, Haganah, and Histadrut. Repeating the same line about 18 out of 22 Wikis doesn't mean anything when you've been told several times that what they do isn't relevant. Please try to stick to the point at hand. Thank you. — ] (] · ]) 06:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you able to see the "clash" of these two policies? can you see how problemitic it is for wiki to basically adopted the(real) terrorists POV who attack civiliants - on a group that is defined (in general and in Article) as having attacked an armed forces? and none of the less, never even been designed as such?

I was repeating it, cause I had a feeling you are ignoring NPOV policy - and the "clash" of these 2 policies, and to this "Clash" I havn't recieved an answear from you.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 08:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

They killed numerous Arab civilians.

Ceedjee (talk) 13:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

According to some OR reasrchs, "The Jews" are responsible to 9/11 - you want wiki to adopt this POV ? get serious on war battles terms.

Irrelevant to the point. --Shevashalosh (talk) 16:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Themightyquill, it won't help igonring NPOV policy as an answer. --Shevashalosh (talk) 09:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between POV and "NOT MY POV." It fits the definition for the category. Thus, if you have a problem, it's with the category itself, not with adding it to this article. Applying a controversial category selectively is POV. Applying it universally is NPOV. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 13:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

There is deffinitlly a difference. Those who attack civiliants are the POV of "Terror", those who didn't and none of the less never even been designed as such is someones personal argumentive POV, of defined as "attacking an armed forces".

--Shevashalosh (talk) 13:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Not only is that your POV (the New York Times feels differently) but also, the Deir Yassin massacre makes your line of argument irrelevant to this particular organization anyway. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 17:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I realy don't have any times for your games, as I have already ansewered the Irrlevant issue of Dir yassin battle of war term. other then that, You keep igonring the "clash" of NPOV for a group, who is defined as attacking an "armed forces", and not civiliants.

The fact that you wanna put your POV to this term "obove what the article" says (as you mentioned on summary), makes this even more problematic for wiki to addopt a (real) terror POV' on wiki

How about the U.S army ? they are so called "occupying" Iraq, despite the fact they were never designed as a terror organization - the real Terrorists Justfy their actions on this basiss, and addopting such a POV, is addopting the (real) Terrorists POV on wiki.

can you be not blind for a minute and see that ? --Shevashalosh (talk) 19:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Terrorism and NPOV policy

Shabaz,

The definition of a terrorist/terrorism on wiki (Category:Terrorists):

• Use of unlawful violence or the threat of unlawful violence.
• Targeting civilians.
• Non-state actor, thus excluding state terrorism.
• Absence of a state of war (specifically conventional warfare), thus excluding war crimes.

Can you see it has to include "Targeting civilians"? I suggest you turn to wiki's policy makers to include "Targeting armed forces", until then; this clearly contradicts a violation of NPOV policy.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 21:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The category added is not a subcategory of Category:Terrorists, so that's really irrelevant. It's a subcategory of Category:Terrorism which has an entirely different definition. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 21:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

get serious. I was talking about the defenition of terrorists/terrorism (on wiki) put in there, not only the category itself. --Shevashalosh (talk) 21:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

A "word to the wise": 3 to 5 reversions each in a 2-day period (and numerous others prior to that) may not technically violate the three-revert rule, but certainly looks like edit warring. As an observer of this sorry business (back and forth, back and forth), I hope the dispute can be settled quickly and decisively, before anyone gets cited or blocked. Hertz1888 (talk) 23:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

NPOV - Terrorists

Using the term Terrorists IS NOT against NPOV.

Simply put, use whichever term the sources being cited use. Make sure the sources are reliable and meet WP:RS requirements. That's it! Terrorist itself is not against any Wiki policy. That "words to be avoided" does NOT trump WP:RS and WP:NPOV. Beam 16:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Exaclly what I'm claiming. Terrorists who attack civiliants are not against wiki NPOV, But in this case, Irgun was never designed as such, which makes this a disputive and argumentive POV, not NPOV policy. A policy as you have said that can not be trumped by other policies.

--Shevashalosh (talk) 16:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

But, as I told you, Irgun attacked civilians numerous times...

Eg : Haifa Oil Refinery massacre

Ceedjee (talk) 20:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

This is Israel war of independance - war battle term. again non-NPOV -needs to be changed al well (war of israel independence began immidiatlly after the partition plan, november 1947, this happened on december 1947). --Shevashalosh (talk) 21:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Terrorism can occurr any time, during war, after war, outside of war, alongside a war. Terrorism has also been used as a tactic in war. Beam 22:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Uh, I don't know about that but my point was simply that the word "terrorist" in it of itself is not against NPOV. I reccomend using whatever term the (reliable) sources use. Beam 21:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

You are right.

Shevashalosh : List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s.

I expect you will not tell me that Yishuv and Israel have been in state of war since 1917. Ceedjee (talk) 10:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I expect them not to attack "armed force". Thus, in those day - this reders to the british "armed forces" (Historclly they did not exist on 1917, but in 1931 - read History before you make su a foolish commant). other, they need to attack civiliants (not during war battles times). --Shevashalosh (talk) 10:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

As you've been told, the word "terrorist" is not, of itself, NPOV. Nor is it "vandalism" to insert this category. PR 13:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Shevashalosh, do you claim yishuv didn't exist before 1931 ? :-)

From your point of view, Irgun was not a terrorist organisation because attacks performed whether "versus soldiers" (ie British) or "versus civilians during a war" (ie Palestinian Arabs after 30 November 1947 such as at Haifa refinery or at Deir Yassin) is not terrorism.

That is noted. Ceedjee (talk) 14:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Almost correct. Yishuv (Jewish community) did exist before 1931, but not Irgun -see the article itself of Irgun : "...was a militant Zionist group that operated in Palestine between 1931 and 1948". --Shevashalosh (talk) 15:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I never wrote the contrary.

I permit myself to point out that with your definition of terrorism, the Jews who killed arab civilians during the 1920 Palestine riots (not a war...) were terrorists. That is -of course !- not the case : they defended their life... Whereas... according to Palestinian records, it is the Palestinians who defended themselves againt "Jabotinsky army" that had provocated them the day of Nabi Mussa festival...  ;-) Ceedjee (talk) 15:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry this doesn't fit your schedule... Irgun didn't exist untill 1931.

As to the other articles, some things need to change in other articles of[REDACTED] as well. for example - So called "Dir Yassin Massacre". This was (first and foremost) a battle of war in which people got killed. It occured during Israel war of Independance (on wiki called: 1948 Arab-Israeli War). I know the palestinian story line, where they refer to it as "massacre", but the palestinian story line is not a NPOV policy.

As 1920 Palestine riots (see article itself, and just like the name of the article on itself "Plaestinian riots") it was attacks of arabs on the Jewish community, not the other way around, in which Jewish civiliants were killed, a Synagogue was robbed etc- do you think we should change the name of the article to "The masscre of Jews by arabs in the 20th?" (or something of that nature in the "absence of war")?

Have a nice day. --Shevashalosh (talk) 16:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You do insist but you could not quote me statint that the Irgun was formed before 1931.

FYI : according to the article 1948 Arab-Israeli War started on 15 May. Deir Yassin "battle" occured on 9 April. I deduce that Deir Yassin didn't occur during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War...

Ceedjee (talk) 19:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Listen Ceedjee, as to Irgun established in 1931 (see article, I didn't put it there), there is no problem of that, I don't need to find at the moment a ref - caus this is a sure thing - but if you insist I will.

Second, The only argument (if any) of "Dir yassin" was weather it occured by definition on 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine, as arabs see it as a "seperate war" or has it occured in Israel war of Independence (callefd in wiki 1948 Arab-Israeli War) - which included the timing of the "1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine" - thus making it one war, not 2 - but the button line, is it don't matter if it was 1 or 2 wars, but rather the fact that "Dir yassin" was a battle of war - no matter which one or 2 ... --Shevashalosh (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Shevashalosh,

FYI : The Arabs do not want to make the 1947-1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine a separate war. Why would they want such a thing ? On wiki, the war of independence is the 1948 Palestine War. Ceedjee (talk) 06:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You are behaving bizzar latley. Is there a problem here!? --Shevashalosh (talk) 11:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

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