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	Israel is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
[REDACTED]	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 8, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 16, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed September 4, 2007 Peer review Reviewed September 30, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current status: Featured article

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Israel and the Occupied Territories Jerusalem as capital

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Recent changes

Image prefrenes

per the following diff:

Is there some policy regarding this issue? To quote "The Dude", " really put the toghether". Jaakobou 16:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Image use policy#Displayed image size: "Images should generally not be set to a fixed size (i.e. one that overrides the preferences settings of the individual users, see the Manual of Style)." As for the number of images, this just amounts to common sense. In the case of the Geography section, they were intruding on the next section (depending on resolution, of course). In the case of the Culture section, they would have been had they not had the images forced. -- tariqabjotu 17:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Best I'm aware, that is a guideline meant to protect users with 800x600 resolutions from oversized images. Clearly, there is more encyclopedic value in having the extra image in there rather than not. I believe this one falls outside the "generally" mentioned in the guideline but I'm open to hear other thoughts if you disagree (let me know).

Cheers, Jaakobou 18:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I've just noticed the exact nature of the image "upright" extension. I'm thinking the 3 images can work well with one/two of them tagged 'upright'. Does this suggestion work for you? Jaakobou 17:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

No; none of them are upright images. -- tariqabjotu 21:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Question: Anyone else got some thoughts/suggestions regarding this version of the culture section? I'm thinking it might work well without the 200, 170 px constrains, and also that in case of a preference towards 2 images alone, that the hora dancing image takes precedency over the bat-sheva dance group. Jaakobou 12:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Historical relevence and copyright

per the following diff:

The Munich assasination is not 'marginally' relevent to the history of Israeli conflicts. It is an iconic event which cannot/should-not be downplayed. Just recently Sports minister Raaleb Majadle apologized and promised to correct and examine how a book about Israel's sports accidentaly had no mention of the event other than in the preface note. I believe that the image is very relevent for a free educational purpouse and that there's no violation of the fair-use copyrights by adding it to an article about Israel as the image is iconing for both the event itself and Israeli history.

The image is a faithful digitalization of a unique historic image. Use of this image to illustrate the event in question on the Misplaced Pages project where:

• (a) The image depicts a non-reproducible historic event, (b) No free alternative exists or can be created, (c) It's in low resolution, (d) The use of the image on Misplaced Pages is not expected to decrease the value of the copyright.

Qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law.

Basically, rather than have it removed from the article, fair use rationale should be added to the image. Jaakobou 16:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

There are other fair-use requirements, namely (from WP:FUP):

No free equivalent. Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose. Where possible, non-free content is transformed into free material instead of using a fair-use defense, or replaced with a freer alternative if one of acceptable quality is available; "acceptable quality" means a quality sufficient to serve the encyclopedic purpose. (As a quick test, before adding an image requiring a rationale, ask yourself: "Can this image be replaced by a free one that has the same effect?" and "Could the subject be adequately conveyed by text without using the image at all?" If the answer to either is yes, the image probably does not meet this criterion.)

Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic.

It doesn't significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic and there are probably free images available that would be useful here. This article isn't on the Munich massacre; it's on Israel. That picture isn't needed to illustrate Israel, and more specifically, Israel's history. -- tariqabjotu 17:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ. (a) The image is iconic and certainly conveys the encyclopedic importance of this event in a manner not explained in the text and does indeed enhance the reader's understanding of the topic (see it's related paragraph about early "non government" activity). (b) The article subsection is about israeli conflicts and an iconic event such as this is needed to illustrate a definitive moment in Israel's history, which the Munich massacre is a part of.

I'm open to hear other opinions and suggestions, but your current position seems to suggest that Israeli history has very little to do with this event and I believe this to be a mistake and I've provided an external reference to illustrate this.

With respect, Jaakobou 18:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC) add link 18:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

What is the external reference? The only source that follows discussion of the Munich massacre is Crowdy, and that isn't something you added, it's been there in previous versions of the page. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'm following the relevence of your comment. Are you asking for proof that this event is notable and that the image is iconic to Israeli history? Jaakobou 20:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You refer in your previous comment (18:16) to an external reference. All I am asking is, which reference are you pointing to? Simple question... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The sports minister reference noted here.

Here it is again: link.

Cheers, Jaakobou 20:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said the first time, the article is about Israel, the section is about Israel's history, and the sub-section is about Israel's conflict and treaties during this time period. None of those topics necessitate a picture related to the Munich massacre. I'm not disputing that the event was important; I dispute that the event is so important that its significance outweighs the fact that we have other, free images to illustrate Israel, its history, and this period of time. It really is not that important, even if people know about or reference the event today. -- tariqabjotu 22:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Very well, I'm willing to concede this one. Jaakobou 09:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit war to remove references?

per the following diff:

I'm honestly not following why Nomoskedasticity is edit warring (2nd revert+no discussion) to remove well cited material. (A) Despite the "unsourced" edit summary, it is referenced that Hezbollah's activity indeed sparked the fighting and, best I'm aware, even Hezbollah signed an admission that they sparked the war (U.N. resolution 1701).

Putting it succinctly, The material is (a) cited, and (b) not controversial.

p.s. I request that reverts such as the last one, which is clearly a violation of the recent Arbcom ruling on dispute resolution and consensus building, would not be repeated. The material was on the page for quite some time and we can all be mature enough to not engage in edit-warring.
Cordially, Jaakobou 20:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't edited the Israel page since 12 June; edit-warring indeed. Your own edit of 18:25 added what I then reverted - thus not "on the page for quite some time". As for content - I don't necessarily dispute the claim that "Hizbollah started it" - I simply say that the reference that follows the assertion () doesn't support the claim "Hizbollah started it". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I see now that there were prior versions that included the claim "Hizbollah started it"; so I gather that the history here is that Tariqabjotu removed it and you re-added it, despite the absence of a following reference that supports it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(editconflict) This was already on the article and Tariqabotju removed Hezbollah's initiative expressing it "seemed to add blame". This is an error since Hezbollah's initiative sparking the war is not controversial material and therefore I corrected his error requesting that he find reliable sources if he believes the long-standing information to be incorrect. I'll assume you hadn't noticed this "mini-exchange" while making your second revert but it's quite clear that this article change is an error on both your parts as there is no argument regarding this material being accurate. Tariq had not reverted or discussed because he accepted his error, and your reverts came off as edit-warring even if this was not your intention (and I accept your explanation).

Side note about the first Haaretz ref:

• "On July 12, 2006, Hezbollah initiated a diversionary Katyusha rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and border villages"(Haaretz ref)

I'm assuming you missed this, but Haaretz was refering to the initiating part and not to the "sparked the war" section of the text... not that there's anything controversial about that part and, for example, the already used BBC reference cites the beggining of the "crisis" to the abduction.

Side note about the current version:

• "In the summer of 2006, after a series of skirmishes with Hezbollah fighters along Israel's northern border, the Second Lebanon War began."

"Series of skirmishes" - is innaccurate and the previous, long-standing version was clearly the better one even if the sources wern't as implicit as you'd prefer.

With respect, Jaakobou 20:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, "series of skirmishes" is just as lacking in sources as "Hizbollah started the war" - so I'm happy to contemplate the claim that the long-standing version is better. I'm still ambivalent, because abducting soldiers does not always lead to war - war in this case was Israel's chosen response to abduction of its soldiers (note I do not say it was an illegitimate response). The journalistic sources provided earlier in the paragraph establish a timeline of events; but in general, "x started the war" is a judgment better made by historians. Again, only the issue of sources is in question; I am no fan of Hizbollah and do not seek to defend them. I won't edit the paragraph again; I would only invite Tariq to weigh in, provide a more substantial defense of his own edit. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

When this became about sources is beyond me. It's not about sources; it's about weight. As it used to stand, the detail of coverage on what preceded the war was not in proportion to what is said -- or should be said -- about other events. It mentioned specific types of weapons and locations ("diversionary Katyusha"; "mortar attack on Israeli military positions and border villages"), a specific date (July 12, 2006), and an excessive number of sources. The first sentence essentially said Hezbollah attacked. The second sentence said Hezbollah attacked. The third sentence said Hezbollah attacked, and that's why the war started. Whether this is true or not is irrelevant; the point is given undue weight. Nothing is actually said about the war itself, and what happened during it, and so the reader finishes the paragraph with an oversimplified (and perhaps incorrect) "Hezbollah was the whole problem" and with confusion over why the Chief of Staff resigned. -- tariqabjotu 21:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I've gone and made a slightly bold move, returning the previous long-standing version (with an extra citation tag). I can see Tariq's concern when he explains it here. I don't mind a rephrase that keeps in mind the main issue which sparked the war -- i.e. Hezbollah's attacking Israeli border towns while abducting 2 soldiers -- but expresses it in a less detailed/blaming manner. Possibly post a suggestion here?

(Side note to Nomoskedasticity), even if Israel "chose" to respond to Hezbollah with war, it doesn't change the fact that what sparked the war was the Hezbollah "initiative". Jaakobou 09:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou, your edit summary, pointing to my post of 21:30 yesterday, misrepresents what I said. You have taken "I'm happy to contemplate the claim that the long-standing version is better. I'm still ambivalent..." and represented it as my saying "long-standing version is better." Moreover, making the same edit again yourself on this dishonest basis, less than 24 hours later and without replying to Tariqabjotu's concerns, strikes me as edit-warring according to your own definition. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I misunderstood your position and I apologize if it felt like I'm edit warring. I believe the section I opened below explains that I was very much open to work with Tariq trying to work out the kinks which concerned him. Jaakobou 09:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

If you "misunderstood", then you must be unfamiliar with the words contemplate and ambivalent. I still call it dishonest. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Apology again: I am familiar with both but I have made a small error in reading (it happens) followed by a (possibly) slightly too quick return to the long standing version. Noting my error, I've apologized while pointing out that I've made some suggestions on how to resolve Tariq's concerns (and hopefully yours as well).

Personal attacks: I don't see how this "exchange" (calling me 'dishonest') benefits the project and just as I havn't made any suggestions to your character/motives when you edit warred to remove well enough cited material, I would expect similar courtesy in response.

Current discussion: I've added the 1701 reference to my suggestion below, which hopefully is a reasonable start to fix Tariq's concerns. Both of you are welcome to comment on my text and/or make suggestions as well.

With respect, Jaakobou 10:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Reworking the paragraph

Current version

On July 12, 2006, Hezbollah initiated a diversionary Katyusha rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and border villages. Hezbollah fighters crossed the border into Israeli territory and abducted two Israeli soldiers.. Hezbollah shelling of Israeli border towns, along with the seizure of two Israeli soldiers sparked the Second Lebanon War.

Suggestion I by Jaakobou

On July 12, 2006, Hezbollah initiated a diversionary Katyusha rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and border villages, accompanied with Hezbollah fighters crossing the border into Israeli territory and abducting two Israeli soldiers. The Hezbollah shelling of Israeli border towns, along with the seizure of two Israeli soldiers sparked the Second Lebanon War.(new ref)

From the new ref: escalation of hostilities in Lebanon and in Israel since Hizbollah’s attack on Israel on 12 July 2006

Suggestion II by Jaakobou

In mid 2006, a Hezbollah artillery assault and a cross border abduction of two Israeli soldiers sparked the Second Lebanon War.

Side comment: I would not object to the removal of Dan Halutz's resignation from the following paragrah.

Suggestion by XXX

Discussion - Reworking the paragraph

• I've made some minor changes in my initial proposal. I'm sure there might be better suggestions out there. Jaakobou 09:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  I just added a ref to the security council 1701 to the new suggestion. Not intending on adding it before I get some feedback from Tariq. Jaakobou 09:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

  What was the point of this "proposal"? You didn't address anything I mentioned in my comment, instead opting to add two words and remove a period. -- tariqabjotu 12:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• I thought it had some point but was aware that it didn't quite resolve the issue (per "I'm sure there might be better suggestions out there."). I gave it some extra thought and laid out a second suggestion which seems, at least to me, like a version that has a good chance at being accepted (with minor changes). Let me know. Jaakobou 17:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

That seems fine. -- tariqabjotu 21:49, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll work it in with a couple relevant refs sometime tomorrow (going to sleep). Glad we could work this out quickly. Jaakobou 21:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Code of the Sheqel

The article states the code of the Sheqel to be NIS, but as far as I can tell, it actually is ILS. Would someone please correct it? Vashekcz (talk) 23:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

NIS = New Israel Shekel (which replaced the Israeli Lira years ago)--Gilabrand (talk) 20:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I believe we should probably list both ILS(Ref) and NIS(Ref) down. Jaakobou 20:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

"ILS", not "NIS", is the currency code under the ISO 4217 standard. However, it might still be useful to mention NIS, because it's a far more common abbreviation, if you can think of a good way to force the template to have it while still making the distinction clear. -- tariqabjotu 21:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I actually believe ILS is the more common abbreviation, but think we should probably mention both. Not really a templates expert so I can't make any suggestions here. Jaakobou 21:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest a technical workaround: removing the currency_code field entirely and entering the appropriate WikiMarkup to link both ILS and NIS in the currency field. -- Ynhockey 16:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

NIS is the only abbreviation I've ever seen used in Israel. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 17:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

least popular country

I'd like to draw attention to a thread I started, for lack of a better idea where to put it, at Talk:Foreign relations of Israel#BBC survey. Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 15:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts to improve this article. sheesh... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

What? Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 15:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Arabic Version

Out of curiosity, I used the google translator to check out the Arabic translation. Not only does it use many loaded terms, which may or may not be a translation issue, but it also contains factual errors. For example, it refears to the very creation of the Israeli state as a massacre of palestinians. Also, it says that Israel got 55% of the mandate, despite Jews being only 30% of the population-- this is simply not true! Israel actually got less than 20% of the mandate. You can't include Jordan in the population figure but not the land figure! Lastly, the article doesn't site very many sources, if any.

Granted, the translation is crude, but if you try it, it's obvious there are severe problems. Somebody open minded, NPOV who knows Arabic should get over there!

go to http://translate.google.com/translate_t and put in the Arabic URL for translation to see what I mean.

--Lophoole (talk) 19:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you address those questions at the talkpage of the arabic article? the only reasonable way would be to work out an agreement at ar.wiki, seeking to canvass on other wikis is not helpfull. --Soman (talk) 20:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the review Lophoole! It's actually a known issue and it was only thanks to a few Israeli editors that the article was renamed from Filastin, as it was for a long time, to Isra'il. Unfortunately, there are almost no Arabic-speaking editors with a neutral POV on arwiki, so it's a bit hard to tackle issues like this. I don't think bringing it up on arwiki will help much, but it's worth a shot. In the end, there's not much we can do about this :( -- Ynhockey 20:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Um... when was the article named Palestine, instead of Israel? The article seems to begin "Israel is..." all the way through the history. -- tariqabjotu 20:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

You know what? I wasn't able to find it. But having visited that page many times out of curiosity, I distinctly remember this issue. The explanation could be that the article was named Palestine, but the text said Israel. Alternatively, it could be that the version is actually part of the current Palestine (فلسطين) article. I'm not really sure, to be honest. Maybe Drork can shed light on this. -- Ynhockey 21:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Just because you don't like the facts doesn't make them any less true. The mandate did give more land to the Jews despite their having a smaller percentage of the population (Jordan was not included in the land given to the Palestinians). And as for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians (Muslim and Christian alike), that did occur. They were forced from their homes in what is now modern Israel, then the Israelis declared their property abandoned and confiscated it. Who do you think the millions of Palestinian refugees living in Lebanon and Jordan are descended from? You may not like these facts, and you can do your best to try and erase them from Misplaced Pages, but the Israelis themselves recorded their ethnic cleansing. Ben Gurion himself wrote about such things in his own papers. This stuff is documented by the Israelis. If you have any real respect for history, I recommend that you not try and rewrite it but to tell what really happened. To this day, the human rights abuses continue in the West Bank and Gaza, yet this page is meticulusly clean of any mention of such things. The theft of Palestinian property, the bulldozing of the houses of people who already live in poverty due to the constriction of their economy within the West Bank. There is only a cursory mention of the apartheid wall, and that mention is not factually correct. The wall is almost completely built WITHIN the West Bank and it cuts deeply into former Palestinian territory in many areas. I am sure what I have written here will either be promptly deleted, flamed, or violently rebuffed with claims of anti-semetism and a lack of referrences in my argument (the proof and documentation of such things, however, is easily available to anyone who is willing to look for it). That being said, you can try to keep the truth of the situation hidden for a hundred years, but history will not be suppressed and the truth of these things will be known. You complain because the arabic version of this page says things which you do not like, however your english version is so biased in favor of the Israeli government's point of view, that it barely mentions the situation or history of the West Bank or Gaza. Just because those places are not technically part of Israel does not mean that the government of Israel is not responsible for what its military does there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.6.36.241 (talk) 21:01, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Criticisms of Israel

I am disturbed and perplexed as to why the page for Israel does not contain a section or stub outlining common criticisms of the country. I for one would like to opt to have a small section in the article outlining current criticisms of the country, for example the human rights violations currently being investigated by the United Nations, or the treatment of Palestine citizens inside the country. It should also be noted that several countries refuse to recognize Israel as a country. Chemtype (talk) 13:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

There are whole articles about that. Some of them are linked in the box at the bottom of the article and others are linked from those articles. There is no shortage of coverage on Misplaced Pages of criticisms of Israel. The project is fairly overflowing with it. 6SJ7 (talk) 14:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

More on the meaning behind the "State of..."

Why is Israel officially referred to as the State of Israel and not just Israel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.106.153 (talk) 21:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Why is it United States of America and not just America? Why is it Bundesrepublik Deutschland and not just Deutschland? Who cares? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

"Israel" is the name of the Jewish people, not of a land or a country. So the State of the Jewish people is called "The State of Israel". That's why. Benjil (talk) 06:45, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

I've moved detailed speculations on meaning of the name to the etymology section in Land of Israel which already had a lengthy section on the etymology, it seemed off topic to discuss speculations on ancient meanings of the name as the first paragraph of an article on the modern state of Israel. Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 01:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I tmight be worth mentioning that the Jewish state established during the revolts against the Romans in 66 and 135 AD both called themselves Israel. I can prvide a reference for this if necessary. Telaviv1 (talk) 09:15, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Earliest History

This is not factual “, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since the time of the biblical patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” So those people existed? what proof is there? How could a featured article have such info? And when exactly was this time? 5000 B.C.? 3000 B.C.? Seektrue (talk) 08:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The Jewish Population Percent of Israel

according to the "CIA World Factbook" Israel actually has a 76.4% Jewish population. Survent2 (talk) 16:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The CIA fackbook is an unreliable, out-dated source. Don't count on statistics from there. okedem (talk) 17:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the CIA is a bad secondary source. The Israeli Census Bureau is the (only) primary source - if you read that carefully you will find that the "Jewish Population of Israel" includes Russian Christians and anyone with a "jewish" ancestor who has ever visited Israel. Fourtildas (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"modern state of Israel has its roots"

I have added "citation needed" because there is no indication what this god story has to do with the modern state. (I expect certain people will say: "everybody knows that - no need for a citation"). Fourtildas (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

In Haaretz I find "... ultranationalist Israelis who believe that the West Bank is part of the biblical land of Israel promised to the Jewish people by God" - that would make clear to the reader the connection to the modern state. I will cite that unless someone can find a better one. Fourtildas (talk) 17:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Then make sure to say "ultranationalist Israelis believe the modern state of Israel has its roots..." in the article. Otherwise, you're right it's just a "god" story. Beam 17:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

That is the essence of Zionism, a topic I expect all editors here to know something about. okedem (talk) 19:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems a bit arrogant for you to "expect" editors to know about your ethno-religious ultranationalist gang. Do you also "expect" our readers (remember them?) to know all about it so you are exempted from providing citations? I find it offensive that Jewish religious legends are "history", while mine are "mythology". Fourtildas (talk) 04:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And BTW, I know a bit about zionism and, yes, the statement is the "essence of zionism". Do you think the "essence of zionism" qualifies as Neutral and unbiased[REDACTED] content? Shouldn't this political doctrine (or slogan) be preceded by "XXX believes" as Beam suggests? Fourtildas (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Sweet.

Anyway, editors who know nothing of Zionism, the ideology behind the establishment of Israel, shouldn't make claims here.

For editors who deserve relevant answers - regardless of the veracity of the biblical claims (God's promise, the unified monarchy, etc.), Jews have been in Israel/Palestine for at least close to 3,000 years (supported by archaeological evidence from other sources), and the concept of has indeed been central to Judaism for a very long time. This is the background for the Zionist aspiration, and has nothing to do with God's supposed promise. okedem (talk) 12:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Then you agree with me. If you follow the Land of Israel link you will find it is entirely about God's promise. (except for some random ramblings about coins and jewish law). Perhaps you are thinking about some other "Land of Israel" which is not a bible story.

And is this "archaeological evidence" cited in Misplaced Pages? Possibly I wave missed it among all the bible stories. Fourtildas (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

(moved down) by Ceedjee (talk) 12:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"it was the main point in 19th and 20th century Zionism". Look in the Misplaced Pages zionism articles. You won't find a source for that. If you have a source, please put it in the articles. Fourtildas (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I see someone has vandalized the "citation needed" so I put it back. Also put a "citation needed" on "three thousand years" and changed it to 3000. Fourtildas (talk) 03:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

To distinguish among the different tendencies in Israel, we could write Zionists / Neo-Zionisists or Post-Zionists.

I think here it is typically Neo-Zionists. Ceedjee (talk) 09:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Root of Israel and Zionism

Okedem,

Jews have been there for 3000 years. Nobody could deny that.

In the Israeli society there are 3 main waves of thoughts who consider themselves as inheritars of Zionism but who do not share the same values : secular zionists, post-zionists and neo-zionists.

Only those influenced by the later category consider that what occurred 3000 years ago is relevant or worth mentionning. Ceedjee (talk) 14:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Judaism wasn't even invented 3000 years ago, (if you say otherwise please cite reliable secondary sources, not bible stories) so it is a bit problematic to say that "Jews" have been there - perhaps their pagan ancestors were there? Fourtildas (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

In Israeli discourse, there are only two types usually discussed. Zionists (as the classical Zionists), and Post-Zionists, who are essentially not Zionists. There little use of terms like "secular zionists" or "neo-zionists".

But that's an aside. The passage discusses the roots of Israel. Those roots aren't dependent on modern-day thinking, among Israelis or otherwise. Discussing the roots means discussing how Israel came to be. What was the driving force, the ideology, etc. The Land of Israel's importance to Judaism was the reason and justification for the modern state's establishment here. Even if some in today's Israel don't think it should have been so, it was the main point in 19th and 20th century Zionism, which created the State of Israel.

"worth mentioning" - you don't have to agree with something to mention it. The thing is, a reader asking themselves why Israel was established in this location (or at all) needs this information. okedem (talk) 15:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I never said I agreed or not with anything about this ideology, on the contrary :-)

I don't agree partially with what two claims :

1. Neo-zionism is not used. It is maybe not by the "man of the street" but it is by sociologists who study Israeli culture. See the article.

2. "It was the main point in 19th and 20th century Zionism, which created the State of Israel." Israel was created on the land of Eretz Yisrael/Palestine because of the links of this with Judaism. Right and correct. BUT this must not be shorten. It would be false to claim "Israel was created (...) because of (...) Judaism." First Zionists were mostely secular Zionists with some "socialist" agenda but not at all religious. Ceedjee (talk) 16:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Not religious, but traditional. The very reason they came to Palestine was due to its importance to Judaism and the the Jewish history. They wanted to rebuild the state, return to the only place Jews were ever sovereign, and try to get to that situation again.

The Declaration of Independence states this very well, and I encourage you to read it. okedem (talk) 16:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Again you agree with me, the Declaration of Independence is just zionist political doctrine which you can't cite as a reliable secondary source in wikipedia. Fourtildas (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not discussing anything with you. okedem (talk) 06:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Okedem,

There are facts that point out the (obvious) links between :

• Zionism and religeous Judaism and the importance of Eretz Yisrael as a 3000 years old Kingdom;
• Zionism and a new socialist ideology with the aim of giving birth to a new society and a new man (sabra), "strong and courageous" in front of the "old jew" (from Galoud), "weak and coward".
• Zionism and the importance to escape to European's antisemitism.

Read carefully the Declaration of Independence. You will these 3 points are pointed out, in that order.

I don't know if you distinguish Historiography from History : historiography is the history of the history ie, the way history's tale evolves during time.

In the historiography of zionism, point 1 is put forward by some as the main reason for the creation of Israel and Zionism, particularly after the 6 famous days. Point 3 has long been pointed out, particularly in Europe and in Israel after Kippur (in front of the death). Point 2 was the credo of secular zionism (Founding Fathers, such as David Ben Gurion) but has been rejected both by post-zionists (as immoral - and they now militate so that Israel become a "state like all others") and neo-zionists (who reject the "secular approach" as naieve in front of Arab and Islamic antisemitism and who militate so that "tradional values" of Judaism and nationalism are put forward in Israel's society).

I personaly don't mind much and don't take party in this debate. That is history that interests me.

An Israli sociologist recently wrote : "the future of the past in Israel thus depends on the future of its politics. History writing was, and will continue to be, a servant of history making. And it is history makers, not history writers, who in the future will craft Israel's past." (Uri Ram, The Future of the Past in Israel - A Sociology of Knowledge Approach, in Benny Morris, Making Israel, the University of Michigan Press, 2007.)

Ceedjee (talk) 07:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but I don't see what that has to do with the particular sentence we're discussing. There were several reasons to come to Palestine and strive for independence, and you've listed them. However, that doesn't preclude the point that "The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel". What I mean is - the reasons listed were the motivation for the rebuilding of the state, something like - "We can't continue to live in fear; we should be independent again, like we were back then, and let's do it in Palestine too" (not an actual quote, just to clarify). okedem (talk) 09:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

The sentence is : "The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism for over 3000 years."

The link between this sentence and what I pointed out is that is not respecting NPoV

• for post-zionist, that is wp:undue and considered retrograde a modern state has nothing to deal with religion
• for secular-zionist, that is true but there is more important (main pov lacks)
• for neo-zionist, that is right in the middle.

I would add that there are other pov's (such as Arab/Muslim or other countries even if less important than Israelis'pov for the article : Israel ; the Palestinian pov is maybe also to be taken into account given they claim the same land as theirs).

Finally, Eretz Yisrael could also be misperceived because it is wider than Israel.

I think that is the reason why some editors disagreed with that sentence.

But on the other side, it cannot be denied that links between Israel and Judaism are deep and inalienable. Ceedjee (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Ceedjee (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me as though you're misinterpreting the words "has its roots". Your comments would seem more pertinent to me if the sentence was something like "The modern state of Israel is the successor of the Jewish Kingdoms of yore" or something similar. That's not what it means. It's not about current day affairs, but about how the State of Israel came to be. The fact is, the whole concept of establishing a state here was directly inspired by the importance of this land of the Jewish people. The people working for it, the immigrants, the Zionist activists etc, viewed their whole enterprise in this light. This is expressed well in the declaration of independence (as I've said earlier), written and signed by the founders, explaining their view and vision regarding this. That is the reasoning for this sentence, and has nothing to do with current day Post-Zionist (or Arab, or European, or anyone) views. okedem (talk) 13:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

You say The fact is, the whole concept of establishing a state here was directly inspired by the importance of this land of the Jewish people. The people working for it, the immigrants, the Zionist activists etc, viewed their whole enterprise in this light.

Misplaced Pages is not about "facts" or truth, it is about verifiable sources. You keep repeating your political and religious beliefs beliefs but are unable to cite reliable secondary sources. Most people outside Israel and USA regard the zionist invasion of Palestine as just another example of Euro/American colonialism/imperialism, like the French in Algeria or the British in Iraq in the 1920's or the US in Iraq and Afghanistan currently. I repeat, no source which meets Misplaced Pages standards for the statement in question has been given.

Pardon me for being tiresomely repetitive, but you guys just don't seem to get it.

In Misplaced Pages we don't base our articles on Communism on communist manifestos or speeches by lenin or castro or mao.

We don't base our articles on the current Iraq war on speeches by bush and his neocon-likudist puppeters.

But you guys want to base articles on zionisn and the zionist regime on zionist beliefs - and you don't even want to provide citations for these beliefs, much less citations which meet[REDACTED] standards. Fourtildas (talk) 04:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why you waste your energies on fourtildas comments.

Telaviv1 (talk) 12:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Should one respond to something like this or just hope it slithers back to whatever disgusting place it came from? Fourtildas (talk) 04:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian People were original settlers 20,000 years ago

According to "Traces of a distant past" by Gary Stix, Scientific American, July , 2008, the Palestinian People were the original settlers of the region 20,000 years ago. This should be mentioned in the introductory paragraph beside the statement about the jews being there 3000 years (this seems to be purely a religious belief - no sources other than the jewish bible are given). We really need to work on getting all this religious mumbo-jumbo out of Misplaced Pages Fourtildas (talk) 05:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Too true, but then again if you're dealing with the subject of a group of people saying 'We now own all your land because our religion says we do' Logic pretty much flys out the window. I hope this comment does not get deleted for being too truthful and if i am wrong please feel free to tell me why.--78.145.193.160 (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, what is totally disgusting about these people is that they claim to have such high standards of honesty and intellectual integrity but they try to pass off superstitious rubbish like Land of Israel as historical fact. What a (sad) joke. (And I stand behind my use of the words "superstitious" and "rubbish" if any zionistas need them explained). Fourtildas (talk) 05:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

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