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Removed Links

Hi guys. I'm writting this article because I inserted a link to a site I think is very helpful and relevant to this article, but is removed by one "GoodDamon" as vandalism. I am aware of the linking rules and terms and I in no way think this site is vandalism. The information on the site is actually very helpful in scope of the article. I have applied to three PA schools now and interviewed for two. It wasn't until I started to prepare for my third interview that I ran across the website when looking for interview tips and a more personable website than a site that just states the same old facts. I think the site gave myself, and it seems others from the comments I have seen on the site, a real look at what to expect as a PA, what a PA is, and more importantly for me, application and interview tips from a student that is actually going through it. Like I said, I don't think this link should be removed because without it I wouldn't have gotten the help and information that other, textbook answer sites give. The link to the is www.lifeofapa.com A Day In The Life Of A PA. I hope this link can be added back.

Painformation (talk) 13:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Brandi

I

I think this page should include a section on how nurses dislike physician assistants because they require less training yet are assumed to have higher qualities of medical care. (Clamster5 00:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC))

Actually, PAs are trained differently that nurses; PAs are trained in medicine, nurses in nursing. I know that sounds like I'm stating the obvious, but there is a significant difference. Also, most nurses have an RN (2 years) while PAs have a BA/BS + PA school (6 years), and have a much greater education in medical science and medicine. Gtadoc 02:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC) note: I'm not a PA.

Clamster5 you're welcome to write a bit about the conflicits between PAs and other health care professionals. Nephron  T|C 23:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Good experiences

Its unfortunate for Clamster5, but all the experineces i've had with PA's has been great. I work at a major medical center in Boston and I can't praise them enough! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peck10 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I have found them woefully undertrained. In the hospital they mostly do scut work that even the residents don't want to do. -THB 22:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Well THB, maybe in Australia that is your experience. Here in the USA they are very well educated and are a vital resource. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peck10 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately, there are no PAs in Australia. I must admit that not all PAs in the US are completely incompetent and they are useful to transport patients to radiology, do routine documentation, fetch supplies for the residents, and check vital signs. As long as they work under close supervision of physicians, the potential for harm is somewhat limited. -THB 03:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

What evidence can you supply that shows a lower level of training for a PA than that of a nurse? There are nurses with 2 year degrees, 4 year degrees, masters and doctorate level degrees. There are PA's at each of those levels as well. Check the malpractice statistics and you will find that on a per capita basis, physician assistants are successfully sued less often than physicians. Physician Assistants serve in the military and public health services and are often the first line of care for an injured servicemember--and make the difference between life and death, or keeping limbs! I believe you have used the wrong definition--those doing routine documentation, transporting patients, etc, are typically called MEDICAL assistants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadster (talk • contribs) 07:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

--They get sued less than physicians because they deal with the simpler problems-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrSandman (talk • contribs) 01:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm not confused at all about PAs and Medical Assistants, not at all. And personally, I don't want someone with a two or four year PA degree (or even a Masters, for that matter) running amok claiming to "practice medicine" on me or anyone I care about. (Something nurses don't claim to do.) I suppose they are useful in the military as well as for doing the scut work in the hospital. -THB 16:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Nurse practioners claim to practice medicine, and many hope to do so without supervision! Gtadoc 02:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC) No, a PA is not a physician, but then neither is a nurse. Its simply a matter of economics that we can't afford to have a MD do everything anymore. Gtadoc 02:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

THB still hasn't supplied any evidence to support his claim that shows a lower level of training compared with a nurse.

It is quite clear that THB is uneducated about that of which you speak. PAs do practice medicine and are educated based on the medical school model and do not pretend to be physicians. They embrace the relationship with their precepting physician and are very skilled clinicians (I would hunch that THB is a NP hmm...) Most PAs worked in medicine (paramedics, RTs, and/or RNs) before becoming PAs and most PA programs require prior medical experience, so before painting things in broad strokes, educate yourself. PAs are not MDs and do not claim to be. However their level of autonomy is based on thier clinical experiences and skill set. So no, you are not going to have a PA fresh out of school doing your cut down and harvesting your Saphenous Vein for a CABG, but you will have a PA with experience doing it, and following and managing you in the ICU. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.0.5 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 31 October 2006) (UTC)

I am a Physician Assistant. Says so on my diploma and my license. Yes, I graduated with an Associate of Science but I was required to have 2 years of college work to get in, and had 140 semester hours credit when I graduated. I did later finish a BS, now having around 197 semester hours. I've long joked I won't go after a Master's Degree unless there's money in it for me. The vast majority of programs are now on the graduate level, and more accomplish that each year. I had 8 years of medical experience, civilian and Navy, before PA school.

I am held to the SAME PROFESSIONAL STANDARD OF PERFORMANCE AS A PHYSICIAN. (caps intentional) As a matter of fact, PAs are often actually held to a higher standard, as a physician believes that even if (s)he cuts corners, no one but another physician can criticise the work. As an example, in the psychiatric hospital where I have worked over 20 years, the physical examination documentation before PAs began performing them was pathetic. Physicians would customarily just write "NML' on every line down the form. These physical exams were often completed within 2 minutes. It takes me about 1/2 hour to perform an exam on an uncomplicated patient from greeting to filing of the paperwork. Now, tell me that I am poorly trained, probably incompetent, and fit only for patient transport!

Nurses have more training??

Though the ANA (American Nursing Association) has declared the basic credential of an RN is now the BSN, there are 4-5 ADNs graduating for every BSN in my state! My hospital has to run an orientation program for newly graduated nurses. I may be old school, but I thought they were taught how to do the work in nursing training!

I consult with my SPs (supervising physicians) several times daily, and take great comfort in having them backing me up! If they get in trouble with a patient, they have to dig _themselves_ out.

I take pride in taking good care of patients and feel sorrow when I cannot help a patient reach wellness.

I agree that THB should read WP:Etiquette and WP:Civility.

Bob Franks, Physician Assistant, Goldsboro, NC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob2 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you had carefully read what was written, the etiquette/civility statement was directed at someone else. Thank you for the anecdote supporting my contention that PAs are useful for doing routine documentation. -THB 05:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the back and forth is very productive. Perhaps the place for this would be an article called conflicits between medical professionals or medical hierarchy. It would be interesting to have a hierarchy like this one. Nephron  T|C 22:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It's such a shame that so many people are still unaware about the profession and the capabilities of a PA. Just a few weeks a ago i read an article on yahoo.com about PA's being the number 1 profession to have!Vatchdog 18:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Physician's "Associates" ??

PA stands for "assistant" and assistant only. Associate implies equals, though PAs are midlevel providers along with nurse practioners and nurse midwives. PHysicians are top level providers. The word "Associate" should be removed from the opening paragraph. It is totally made up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.28.153 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

This is simply not the case. Some PA programs in the USA are refered to as Physician Associates. just a few for example. In recent discussion groups in the PA world, the term Associate is being debated because it better reflect the relationship of the PA with the Physician. PAs do not pretend to be (nor want to be) physicians. However in todays world of medicine the role they play is more of an associate than the term assistant implies. Hences the debate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.183.65.204 (talk • contribs) 09:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I would tend to disagree. I graduated with a Bachelor of Science Degree as a Physician Associate, and subsequently received a second degree as a Master of Physician Assistant Studies--Family Medicine. Do I consider myself to be an equal of a physician, absolutely not. In 1971, what is now the American Academy of Physician Assistants was the American Association of Physician Associates (http://www.pahx.org/period03.html). Roadster 15:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The certification uniformly appears to be called physician assistant. I looked at the three references provided; the first (Yale) states "... and advance the physician assistant profession." and the third states "... is to educate physician assistants...", if one looks a bit further. The second reference is a page about a training program for medical students (i.e. physicians-in-training)-- " is open to third year medical students enrolled in the University of Minnesota Medical School at the Twin Cities or Duluth campuses." -- and in a sense justifies the criticism by User:68.50.28.153. To me, it looks like a few physician assistant programs are trying to push the envelope a bit and make their program sound like they are training people that are equals to physicians.

In any case, I encourage both of you (User:68.50.28.153 & User:132.183.65.204) to register (see WP:REGISTER). Nephron  T|C 22:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to "Physician Associates" -- based on this reference (Physician Assistant History Center): "In the 1980's, the American Academy of Physician Assistants (AAPA) recommended that graduates of AMA accredited programs refer to themselves as physician assistants and that legislation enacted by states use this terminology to reduce confusion. Physician Assistant is the current term used to describe the profession." Nephron  T|C 22:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you to Roadster

For removing your personal attack. However, removing Nephron's comments was inappropriate:

Roadster: Your comments are not constructive. Further, I do not think they are in the spirit of Misplaced Pages --please read WP:Etiquette and WP:Civility and sign your posts (see: WP:SIG). Nephron  T|C 22:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

-THB 15:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

HOW MUCH DO PA'S GET PAID?

Physician or Physician's?

Physician's assistant makes more sense, as the assistant assists the physician, meaning that the assistant belongs to the physician. Does anyone agree with me? MarcGushwa 17:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarcGushwa (talk • contribs) 02:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

I have to disagree. The PA is not owned by the physician. The PA acts as a partner in medicine not an object that is owned. Actually some programs refer to themselves as physician associates (Duke for example).

--Wrong. PAs technically exist to assist physicians. They are an assistant to the physician. Without the physician, there is no such thing as a PA. Hence, "Physician's Assistant" is the more appropriate terminology. --DrSandman —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrSandman (talk • contribs) 01:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Physician assistant is the proper term, many a PA are bothered by an inappropriately placed little ' Gtadoc 02:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

--But this is not a question of ownership. It's a question of syntax. Grammatically, if John is assisting Karen, John is Karen's Nurse. It doesn't mean that John is Karen's possession, John is merely temporarily, the object of a sentence in which Karen is the subject. That said, "Physician Assistant" seems to be the dominant term, so we should keep it that way, despite how badly I, as a future physician would like to grammatically have an assistant... Dwinetsk 09:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Have you spent a great deal of time working with Physician Assistants? If, when you graduate, want an "assistant," I would recommend you employ a medical assistant. If you want to increase your productivity and revenue, then you may want a Physician Assistant. As you will find out during residency, if you utilize your PA by having them physically assist you in seeing patients, neither of you will be able to bill for their (the PA's) time; on the other hand, if they are also seeing patients and having you review the work, then they (the PA) will be able to bill for their services.

I admit, "Physician Assistant" is a confusing name, which does not represent the profession well; however, at this point it would be very difficult to change due to the way laws are written. Physician Associate is also a term that does not accurately represent the profession. Some schools (University of Washington) utilize the term MEDEX, or Medical Extender; however, due to licensing must utilize the traditional Physician Assistant term after graduation of its students.

We are basically talking about semantics that are sometimes inflammatory to a group that, in general, has spent years pursuing an education, which is often misunderstood. As a PA, I have two bachelors’ degrees in medicine (BS Parmedics, BS Clinical Health Sciences) totaling over 8 years in school, which is more time spent than if I had just become a physician. I know of very few Physician Assistants or ARNP's that claim to be or replace physicians, but is simply an adjunct to them.

Thanks,

ok, here goes. I am a PA (Physician Assistant) and proud of it. We believe in the Physician-PA team. "We" is the main stream PA profession. By "Physician-PA" team I mean TEAM. With the Physician first. Yes, we are treated well by our supervising physician. And yes, we understand who is ultimately responsible for the practice. But we work together to help our patients.

As far as NPs go, well, some are my best friends. There is a difference in how we practice, a difference in how we are trained, but why fight? It makes no sense in this health care crisis.

And for the record, the Australian government has come to the AAPA to explore a pilot program in their country. There are now PAs in the Netherlands and England. The entire medical community is becoming aware of our value. So educate yourself and stop the fighting.

Texas PA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.41.159.222 (talk • contribs)

Title

Shouldn't the title of the article read Physician Assistant (vs. Physician assistant)?

Fixed Gtadoc 04:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Like airline stewardess, carpenter, or neurosurgeon this should not be capitalized as an occupation, but only as the title of an article. Does someone out there know how to (re)fix this. Sfahey (talk) 03:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Per the American Academy of Physician Assistants's own usage], this should be a lowercase title, "physician assistant." This is a description of a job, like attorney or accountant, not a proper noun. I will move the article to physician assistant. --ZimZalaBim 16:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The Military PA

Added a link to the US Military's Interservice Physicians Assistant Program page. Will add a short section on Military PAs as time permits. Focus to be on the unique role PAs hold in the modern military, specificaly the expanded role in the US Military over the past 5 years as the 'First Line' trauma subject matter experts. If anyone has info on Military PA's in other countries and their role in treating soldiers and civilian populations, please let me know and I'll be sure to include it! -- Eric Bouchard 10:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Added 'The Military PA' section to main page. POV is very limited at this time, but I tried to highlight the differences in the practice of military PAs. Also did not mention the program requirements or instruction to keep in context with the article and avoid taking to much space. There are probably better ways to link statements than the bullet style used, but I'm still learning the hyperlinking style here. --Eric Bouchard 07:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

DO and MD in the lead

I think that it's inappropriate for the lead to refer to an entirely irrelevant (for this article) difference in the training and licensing of physicians in the United States. However, when I removed it, one editor reverted the change without any explanation. I'd like to hear from other editors: does anyone think that the distinction between DOs and MDs is important for this article? Does it actually have any difference at all for PAs? Does a PA, for example, do materially different work in a family practice setting or urgent care clinic if the supervising physician is an MD instead of a DO? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

No, there is no difference. I have removed that portion of the lead. Antelan 21:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree - it makes no difference to a PA whether his or her supervising doc is an MD or DO. My supervising doc is an MD, and my colleagues that work with DOs have the same duties.

However, as one of my former classmates put it, "My supervising doc does a hellaciously good back and neck manipulation."

GMan552 (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

We should probably have a whole article about that. Actually, an article wouldn't do it justice. We need demonstrations! Antelan 22:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Changed references and most links to in-line format

I changed these in order to properly document the references in this article, and to place them in their own section. Let me know what you think.

GMan552 (talk) 05:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"Clinical officers" in sub-Saharan Africa

User Ronns has provided interesting information regarding "clinical officers" - however, this links to his user page. I have suggested to him that he start a new article on clinical officers and place a link in this (PA) article to the new article. What do you all think?

GMan552 (talk) 21:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Length of study in the UK

The newly listed source says two years for the PgDip and two and a half (30 months) for the MSc. Is this right? Are there other programs? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Taiwan

We have an edit war over ===Taiwan===. Here are the two opposing sides:

In Taiwan, nurses can be trained to practice medicine in a 36-month program, being offered at the private Fooyin University <ref></ref>.

and

In Taiwan, nurses can be trained to practice medicine under the supervision of a licensed physician. Otherwise, the nationwide law of their own registered license is still discussed between nurses and physicain.

Note that Nomad added the pdf file because I requested that s/he cite actual sources. Obviously, I don't know if there are other programs in Taiwan; it's not my area of expertise. However, this back-and-forth edit warring really needs to stop. I'd like to ask editors here to spend a few minutes with Google and see whether information can be found. Alternatively, is there any reason why we can't include all of the information here? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

In the absence of any other input, I'll try to combine these into a short paragraph. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Nomad keeps deleting the information about any options other than his/her favored university plus the reference for the information that he wants to include, which is a violation of Misplaced Pages's core verifiability policy. Please, let's talk about it here. Don't just keep deleting things because you can. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

File is a study of the global applicability of PAs according to the number of US-trained PAs. Currently nurses are not being trained to practice medicine. ] (talk) 16:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

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