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Revision as of 19:10, 27 November 2008 editRoadcreature (talk | contribs)4,347 edits →Retrospective diagnoses← Previous edit Revision as of 19:24, 27 November 2008 edit undoWLU (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers52,243 edits →Retrospective diagnoses: "''Now an important qualification:''"Next edit →
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::::The government is a '''political body''', not a '''scientific body''' or '''historical body'''. Accordingly, it responds to the opinions of '''citizens''', not the results of research or academic consensus that are the requirements of ]. To date no reliable sources have been presented to indicate academic consensus on FN having CFS, so I think we're done pending further sources. ] <small>] ]</small> <sup>] - ]</sup> 19:04, 27 November 2008 (UTC) ::::The government is a '''political body''', not a '''scientific body''' or '''historical body'''. Accordingly, it responds to the opinions of '''citizens''', not the results of research or academic consensus that are the requirements of ]. To date no reliable sources have been presented to indicate academic consensus on FN having CFS, so I think we're done pending further sources. ] <small>] ]</small> <sup>] - ]</sup> 19:04, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::Nobody claims any such consensus, so we don't need to look for any sources for it. Please stick to the actual topic. Is she, or is she not, '''believed''' (by ''some'', what else?) to have suffered from ME/CFS? ] (], ]) 19:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC) :::::Nobody claims any such consensus, so we don't need to look for any sources for it. Please stick to the actual topic. Is she, or is she not, '''believed''' (by ''some'', what else?) to have suffered from ME/CFS? ] (], ]) 19:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::That's not the whole discussion - the whole discussion is "Is she '''believed''' by '''a relevant expert or group of experts''' to have suffered from ME/CFS?" We do not include all opinions; the lower threshold is that of ] - "'' generally not include tiny-minority views at all...Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views...''(from Jimbo)''If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article.''" Merely because we can verify the opinion doesn't mean we have to include it. Failing one or more ''reliable'' sources to attribute this view to, we shouldn't be including it. If you are aware of any actual reliable sources that claim she had CFS, present them so we can discuss. ] <small>] ]</small> <sup>] - ]</sup> 19:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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February 2008

Move Notable sufferers from Chronic fatigue syndrome to Notable sufferers from Chronic fatigue syndrome per talk. Ward20 (talk) 05:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


Notable patients and alleged patients

from list of articles linking directly or indirectly to ME/CFS. All of these articles claim that these people have come down with it at some point and I have uncritically included them here, with no regard for sourcing or credibility (some of these people have had sufficiently impressive recoveries that I find it far more credible to believe they actually had something else and were misdiagnosed). -- Strangelv (talk) 16:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've sourced a few of these. Florence Nightingale is the most debatable one, as while the ME/CFS community claims her, all the sources I've found seem to say 'believed to have had' or 'possibly had'.--MartinUK (talk) 14:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, that is how the article describes the list. Obviously, in her days, the diagnosis of CFS hadn't been invented yet, and ME and other clinical diagnoses also had yet to be defined. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 11:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Retrospective diagnoses

Since CFS is a relatively recent diagnosis, it really can only be made from the 80's onwards; anything before that point I would suggest putting in a "retrospective diagnoses" section, with a lead of "It has been suggested that the following historical people suffered from CFS." The sourcing should be to the usual WP:RS. Per the discussion at Misplaced Pages:RSN#Nightingale Research Foundation, Florence Nightingale is not an automatic inclusion and should be discussed before being added. WLU (t) (c) 14:38, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

It should be carefully worded, but in view of the fact that the ME awareness day is her birthday, she can't really be missed IMHO. Fram found an excellent source for our purposes, I think. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 16:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
By one province in Canada, by the provincial government, which is subject to advocacy from non-professionals. CFS is a medical problem, and retrospective diagnoses should come from some source that has medical respectability. McDonald's citation is to the Nightingale Research Foundation (I was in error, it wasn't published by Keen), which has been established as an unreliable source for the claim. McDonald's actual statement is "More recently there has been speculation that Nightingale suffered from "chronic fatigue syndrome" or myalgic encephalomyelitis", with a footnote leading to the heartily unconvincing citation of "A Canadian ME/CFS institute is named the Nightingale Research Foundation". This is not an endorsement by McDonald of the hypothesis, and the NRF itself has been established as insufficiently reliable in this RSN discussion. Pending further sources, Nightingale should not be appended to the list. As stated by Paul B, this would require an expert on Nightingale suggesting the diagnosis, not an advocacy group. WLU (t) (c) 17:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The government doesn't agree with you, so you conclude that they were tricked by patient advocates. Great going there, WLU. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 18:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The government is a political body, not a scientific body or historical body. Accordingly, it responds to the opinions of citizens, not the results of research or academic consensus that are the requirements of WP:RS. To date no reliable sources have been presented to indicate academic consensus on FN having CFS, so I think we're done pending further sources. WLU (t) (c) 19:04, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Nobody claims any such consensus, so we don't need to look for any sources for it. Please stick to the actual topic. Is she, or is she not, believed (by some, what else?) to have suffered from ME/CFS? Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 19:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
That's not the whole discussion - the whole discussion is "Is she believed by a relevant expert or group of experts to have suffered from ME/CFS?" We do not include all opinions; the lower threshold is that of WP:UNDUE - " generally not include tiny-minority views at all...Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views...(from Jimbo)If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article." Merely because we can verify the opinion doesn't mean we have to include it. Failing one or more reliable sources to attribute this view to, we shouldn't be including it. If you are aware of any actual reliable sources that claim she had CFS, present them so we can discuss. WLU (t) (c) 19:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
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