| Revision as of 23:28, 3 December 2008 editJaakobou (talk | contribs)15,880 edits →Stalking: sorry that you feel this way, certainly I've not clicked the contributions page← Previous edit | Revision as of 09:27, 4 December 2008 edit undoN-HH (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers10,142 edits Rm f#ckwittery and general random smears from my talk page. This is a talk page for occasional, constructive communication, not a noticeboard for people to vomit nonsense ontoNext edit → | ||
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| :! <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']''' - 01.02.2008 09:27</small> | :! <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']''' - 01.02.2008 09:27</small> | ||
| == ] == | |||
| Nick, I make your appearance at Pat's talk page the third place you've followed me to. That you misrepresented the number and nature of my edits does not make me any gladder to have you tagging along after me. I'd like to ask you -- very, very firmly -- to stop. Okay? <font color="green">]</font> 19:15, 5 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Stalking you, where? I believe our paths crossed most recently on ], an article I have been involved in from time to time in the past. You of course turned up on the talk page ''after'' me, not before me, as clear from . Subsequently I came across your attempts to insert the Dershowitz stuff into the ] article. The reason I came across that was because, yes, I was having a bit of a trawl round for an especially egregious example of ] material, based on limited sources, being shoved into I-P pages or those with vague links to them, which I could use as a diff in a more general debate elsewhere. I commented on the talk page itself a day later I think, but did not become involved in editing the page itself. Then naturally, when I saw you had posted a 3RR complaint against another editor on account of the dispute there, but had not notified them, I did (ie yes, I did go to their talk page, but in fact precisely because you had NOT gone there to inform them, as procedure asks that you should - I take a poor view of editors who try to go behind others' backs and try to get them blocked). | |||
| :As for misrepresenting the number of your edits on the McKinney page (which you have now accused me of twice), I'd advise you to review them. Four edits, all returning material removed by others, between 1704 & 1926 (my time) on the 4th. , and all involved the return of the Dershowitz quote ( is the earlier one, making four in total). I said ''"Iron Duke has also performed 4 reverts in 24 hours himself, 2 of which were of the Dershowitz material"'', which you are right was incorrect, I apologise. It was 4, with '''3''' of them involving the Dershowitz material | |||
| :Cheers, you're a funny guy. You can't read, you can't count, and you're rude with it. --] (]) 19:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Oh, now you're just making this easy, aren't you? Check your diffs again. Your first and fourth diffs are ''part of the same edit I was making''. That does not count as two reverts. There was no intervening edit. Are you telling me you really don't understand this? (I note alos that you split up those edits which occurred right next to each other, making it harder for someone to see you were wrong. Possibly you did not intend to do this.) Looking at Second Intifada, it appears I was there before you (on talk), but please do check me on that. The other article I was referring to was ], an article you barged into having -- by your own admission -- what you were talking about. You showed up very shortly after I did. That, combined with your recent behavior, suggests to me that you have an unhealthy fascination with my editing. And as for rudeness, you just got blocked a few weeks ago for incivility, no? But I've not been rude here at all. So again: willing to stay away? <font color="green">]</font> 20:25, 5 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Easy for myself, yes: | |||
| :::* McKinney - As usual, read what I said above. I said four ''edits'' (I have also referred to them as reverts). There ''are'' four edits, all of which are going back to a previous version of the page, even if the 1st and 2nd follow on directly from each other and therefore do not technically count as ''separate'' reverts for 3RR. I never accused you of a 3RR violation. Btw I split the 1st and 4th diffs above simply so that I would be highlighting all the Dershowitz reverts first, and then added the 1st at the end as an afterthought, since you asked. | |||
| :::* Second Intifada - I have checked; you either have not or have been misreading again. Prior to my '''October 30th''' comments in response to points made by Nishidani & NoCal100, and in response to Michael Safyan, your last appearance seems to have been way back on '''the 5th August'''. So perhaps delayed reaction stalking, who knows. However you then suddenly in the midst of one of the above discussions, to selectively quote the Mitchell report and to make a not-so-subtle (and misplaced as it happens) dig at one of my earlier observations | |||
| :::* Urban Outfitters - er, it was way back in '''May''' when our paths crossed there, so another '''3 months''' previously. Nor do I recall admitting that I had "no idea what I was talking about", not that has any relevance to charges of stalking (and it would perhaps reflect better on you to be a bit more gracious when bringing up the fact that six months ago someone did accept some of your points on a talk page). | |||
| :::* Rudeness - you told me that I needed to be "educated" and that you could point me in the direction of some books to read. That's kind of rude by any normal standard when all I did was raise a source/BLP query. And yes I was no-warning blocked recently for making one single mildly sarcastic but non-offensive remark in response to an editor who was accusing me of disruptive editing, and swiftly unblocked as well. | |||
| :::I come across other editors on a far more regular basis than I do you, and I'm not stalking them either. I'm adding paranoia to the list of problems - unless of course you edit here with more than one account, and I come across you more often than I realise. Post on my page again and I'm deleting it as trolling. --] (]) 22:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Nickhh, please do not use the word "troll" towards other editors. And IronDuke, you may wish to read ]. And please, both of you read ]? :) Thanks, --]]] 23:34, 5 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well, I think repeatedly accusing me - on my own talk page - of stalking, on account of having edited or talked on a couple of the same articles, months apart; while also repeatedly telling me I've said things I haven't said (and when I point out that I haven't said or done them, I get accused of lying more or less) is at least getting close to trolling, which I'm either going to respond to and rebut, or delete aren't I? And it's not as if I didn't say that any more of it would be treated with the latter option. It may not look like it at the moment, but my own talk page really is my least favourite place here ... --] (]) 23:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Nickhh, with all due respect, I think you may have been misinformed about what trolling is. It's not the same as "disruption" or "vandalism", it's actually something quite different. There's some info at ], though the best description I ever saw was in this NYT article. --]]] 23:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::'Fraid not, I know exactly what trolling is, and that first link was a very helpful reminder. Especially . Sums up the problem here perfectly --] (]) 00:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| Also (and I've noted this on your talk page Elonka) I find it a little odd that you quite happily let pass the fact that ID posted a thread on my talk page entitled WP:STALK and then accused me of being a stalker for no discernible reason. Yet when they post twice repeating their rather bizarre points, I ''warn'' them that I will delete the next one as trolling and then do exactly as promised after they post again anyway, you suddenly find it within yourself to get excited about my use of the word "troll". --] (]) 14:51, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ===Reference note to self and any passing reader=== | |||
| Re "stalking", or "wiki-hounding" as I believe it's now known at least among more polite editors. My sum total of interactions with IronDuke in the 18 months of so I've been around, were at the time of the original accusation, limited to a total of 5 pages in a 7 month period (2 of which were directly related pages). As follows - | |||
| *'''] - March 2008''': I was involved in debates and edits over wording in the lead on and off for a few weeks. I believe ID was there before me, as were plenty of other editors. I no more "followed" him there than I followed anyone else there. ''Then over 50 of my edits later, on a range of other articles ....'' | |||
| *'''] - May 2008''': I reverted what I saw as an OTT edit by ID and discussed it on talk page for about one day. The page was left more or less as he preferred it, because I accepted some of his points and couldn't be bothered to fight over the rest of them. ''Then, 5 months later ...'' | |||
| *'''] - October 2008''': I was participating in a talk page discussion with at least three other editors when ID suddenly turned up out of nowhere (having not been active on the article for months), referring specifically to comments of mine. So if anyone followed anyone here, he followed me of course. ''Then, a couple of days later, on the day of the US election ...'' | |||
| *'''] - November 2008''': I noticed an edit (by ID) inserting a controversial quote into the article on this candidate. I did not become involved immediately, but did use the diff in a separate general discussion at ]. However I did then return the following day to make the specific point on the article talk page that I thought the material was unsuitable, but did not edit it out at any stage. At this point, there were back and forth reverts going on between ID & another editor over the edit, and ID filed what I thought was a poor 3RR note against the other editor, and without telling them they had done it. I then did inform that editor on their talk page that the issue had been raised there. I did not go to the 3RR board itself. ID seems to count that page as one of those I am stalking him to. | |||
| And that's it. I mean, you do come across the same editors from time to time on different pages. Sometimes one or other of them is there "first". Neither editor is necessarily "stalking" the other. (nb: this is NOT intended to start a new sub-thread)--] (]) 11:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Ancient Persian problems == | == Ancient Persian problems == | ||
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| :I've already had a quick scan, but will look again. I'll add any comments or whatever if they come to me .. not sure how helpful I'll be, as i) it takes a while for the amateur reviewer and/or part-time editor to spot some of the problems - which of course is why it's all so insidious; plus ii) I'm a little exhausted by all the BS above (enough to put you off from doing anything much really). But, if everyone does their little bit, we may get there eventually .... --] (]) 00:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | :I've already had a quick scan, but will look again. I'll add any comments or whatever if they come to me .. not sure how helpful I'll be, as i) it takes a while for the amateur reviewer and/or part-time editor to spot some of the problems - which of course is why it's all so insidious; plus ii) I'm a little exhausted by all the BS above (enough to put you off from doing anything much really). But, if everyone does their little bit, we may get there eventually .... --] (]) 00:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC) | ||
| == Are you a 'Hezbollah' operative? == | |||
| It seems to me that you are determined to hide the truth about the terrorist organization 'Hezbollah'. You have been unfairly tracking my activities and removing information and links that I add to WP. Please cease and desist and let others be involved in determining whether my contributions have merits or not. You certainly have sympathy for terror entities and thugs. ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment was added at 02:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Since you asked, no. I saw you had added links to fringey-bloggish articles of dubious provenance to, I think, two separate article, and removed them both. You can always go and read ], or more specifically point 2 at ] if you have a couple of minutes. Please note as well that editors who come to my talk page telling me what "the truth" is, or claiming that I am trying to suppress it, are banned from my talk page (not in any formal WP sense, just according to my preference). Thanks --] (]) 09:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| '''Comment:''' While Fastabbas' comment is inapropriate, I noticed a few comments by established editors that should have been avoided. I'm hoping that ] would be maintained in the future though. ] is a policy that comes to mind as well. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 20:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Heyo Nickhh, | |||
| :I can understand your concern regarding stalk headers but it might be good to still change the title to give a good example of how COI and STALK concerns should be addressed. I would suggest you rephrase the title to something that would have been less provocative. As for the merit of stalk concerns, it might be an issue to which you should follow my recent suggestion to Tundrabuggy. | |||
| :Cordially, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 21:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Civility == | |||
| Nickhh: If you and IronDuke want to arm-wrestle on each other's talkpages, that's one thing, but when it starts overflowing into mainspace, that's when I (or some other admin) is going to have to wade in. This edit summary was neither ] nor helpful. Now please, can we get back to article work without the rhetoric? Thanks, --]]] 01:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :No problem. Was it his complaint that brought you here (again)? And where is your response to my complaint about the WP:STALK thread? --] (]) 01:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :: To be honest, I haven't followed all the back and forth and who said what to whom and "Mommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, he's ''touching'' me!" stuff. So what I'd really like is if everyone could just wipe the slate clean, and find a way to move forward? :) --]]] 02:05, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::More than happy to --] (]) 02:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Concerns regarding possible continued Wiki-stalking == | |||
| It would seem that you have followed my contributions page yet again. We've been over this a couple times and I request that you desist from this conduct. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 08:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)<br><br> | |||
| p.s. please note that there are currently three editors on your page who raise similar concerns (IronDuke, Fastabbas, Jaakobou). <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 08:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :We have indeed been "over this". Your latest accusations are as much bullshit as all the other ones. I simply commented on an AE thread that someone else had opened about you. The underlying issue there (I like to read into disputes before commenting on them) then took me to the ] page, via the ] page. That is it. I am not deliberately following, and have not followed, either of you anywhere. The only time I have even come close to "following" you was about a year ago, when I did go through some of your edits to revert a pattern of siting West Bank locations as being "in Israel". I recall you went to AE about me over that and unsurprisingly your complaint was rejected, because of course I had done nothing wrong in correcting a string of related errors of fact. As for Fastabbas recently, yes I did trawl through their contributions and revert two or three of their edits, because - as I explained to them quite openly and in some detail and again more generally here - I felt, among other issues, they were editing in some dubious links from the same source to a number of pages. The fact that accusations are repeated and new ones dreamed up by separate editors (all with seemingly similar POVs) does not make them any truer. Indeed it looks more like bandwagonning and cheap smear tactics. Oh and it's now called "wiki-hounding", ].--] (]) 17:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Actually, your corrections at the time (5 articles you've never touched before) were mostly false since the changes were related to historical naming conventions. Anyways, I'm not trying to raise anything official, just noting to you to avoid the semblance of working up a revert pattern through my contribution page. I can't attest to the value of the complaints by the other two Wikipedians, but certainly if there is a bandwagon issue, that is not my doing. Please accept this request in good faith and keep my concern in mind. | |||
| ::Cheers, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 18:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::No, you were adding the phrase "in Israel" to sites in the West Bank. That was flat-out wrong, both in terms of geography and "historical naming conventions", as was pointed out to you on the AE thread. Nor am I aware of your edits having been reinstated, by you or anyone else. In addition this was a year ago, so I don't see the relevance. You have neither shown that what I did then was wrong (I would argue that it was good WP practice), nor that I am in any way following you now. I will not treat the next flimsy complaint of this sort I get on my talk page, from you or anyone else editing in I-P articles, in good faith. Indeed, as I say, it's beginning to look like smear campaign of sorts - uncoordinated probably, but nonetheless building up a momentum of its own - which will no doubt to be dredged up at some point in the future as if it constitutes evidence of some sort of pattern of behaviour on my part. This mud will not be sticking, but will instead be returned with a rather large spade, if appropriate. Thanks. --] (]) 19:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::'''Reminder of past issues:''' I think you remember incorrectly. For example - was incorrect on my part since I misunderstood the location of the place (Jerusalem, but I missed that it sat on the Eastern side of the Green Line). However, for example, is just against "padding" of mainstream Israeli perspective (accompanied with refs); and for example, is just a violation of ] and ]. When these edits/reverts accompany themselves into 6 articles, 5 of which you've never touched before, then there is (read: was) a very real issue (a while ago). | |||
| ::::'''Current concern of a smear campaign:''' I've no interest to be part in any such "momentum" and therefore I made my reminder note based on a single article rather than wait for the issue to escalate into something tangible. Keep my note (and request) in good faith, but do take it seriously since an affinity to click an editor's contributions page and reverting him is a bad way to go around. I would suggest using the talk page more often btw, rather than the revert button when dealing with established editors. | |||
| ::::Cheers, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 09:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC) clarify. 09:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC) clarify + <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 09:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::No, I remember - and have admitted to - "following" you on the "in Israel" issue, of which there were others besides the one you have highlighted (I really can't be bothered to go back and trawl through the diffs). However my edits on the Erekat page and the I-P conflict page were nothing to do with your presence on them, and I'm pretty sure I had been around them previously in any event (again I can't be bothered to look for the diffs and history). You are trying to conflate the two issues, now as you were then. As I've said before - everyone who edits on I-P pages crashes into everyone else on different pages from time to time. This is not surprising, and does not necessarily mean that any one party is "stalking" any other party. You've turned up on pages where I've been occasionally in ways that I thought were a little odd. I don't recall ever making a thing of it, that's just what happens. This issue is closed, and any further posts here on my talk page (which I've also said above is my least favourite place on WP) will simply be removed. Cheers. --] (]) 12:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Stalking == | |||
| Please read ] very, very carefully, before pulling a stunt like again. I see your Talk page already contains several warnings about this type of behavior in the past - consider this a final warning. ] (]) 18:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :Perhaps you should read it too, especially the title (which is not stalk). Perhaps you should also read up on who Ignacy Schwarzbart is before making an even bigger fool of yourself than you are now. I was correcting a pretty flagrant error on your part, for the good of this encyclopedia. Did I spot it in your contribution history? Yes, while - wholly legitimately, per WP rules - looking for evidence of Samaria nonsense on other pages. Am I "stalking" your edits, or harassing you in any way, which is what WP:HOUND is all about? No. As I noted amid all the nonsense above (and it is all nonsense) I seem to be on the receiving end of a collective smear campaign, sustained by a bunch of editors who do turn up on the same pages as me (and each other) from time to time. And all, oddly, seem to have a very similar POV. --] (]) 18:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :In fact, having now looked in some detail at your recent contribution history (which as it happens I have not done until just now, despite your accusations), the only pattern I can see that comes close to wiki-hounding is ''your'' apparent habit of following ]. For example to ], ] and ]. --] (]) 19:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Disregarding the possible merits of the above 'last warning', calling fellow editors 'fool' is a comment best stricken through as it will certainly not help any existing collaboration issues. | |||
| ::Apologies for "barging in" and cheers, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 21:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::I didn't call him a fool as such, I merely noted that he was making a fool of himself with his suggestion that my asserting notability for an individual who was a leading Zionist, a member of the Polish government in exile during WW2 and also one of the first to help raise awareness among the Allies about the atrocities being committed against Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe, was "a stunt" or constituted "stalking". By doing that, he was making it rather obvious that he neither knew, nor had bothered to investigate, who the individual was or what he is notable for; and was also highlighting the fact that it had fallen to me to correct his original error. It takes a special kind of foolishness to flaunt your own ignorance like that, I simply commented on it after he came to my talk page to threaten me. Plus I'm getting ''really'' confused now as to who's stalking who. Where did you come from? --] (]) 22:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Heyo Nickhh, | |||
| ::::'''Regarding your concerns:''' I haven't yet clicked 'unwatch' to your user talk page since our latest encounter where I tried to keep things civil and ] despite some concerns. Certainly, you know that there is no need to click a contributions page to get see comments on a fellow editor's talk page. | |||
| ::::'''Regarding civility:''' The "''than you are now''" suffix in your first reply, now accompanied with a "''special kind of foolishness to flaunt ''", is something which should be avoided even if/when improperly accused. Many times I've felt issues/complaints/activities/etc. were of low quality and poor taste but things work better when you shower people with ]. (See also: ]) | |||
| ::::Keep happy, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 23:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
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Re: WP:AGF and defenestrations
Thanks for the heads-up, I'm already on it: . I'm still formulating the post, but it will appear soon.
Cheers and thanks again! pedro gonnet - talk - 01.02.2008 09:05
- Ta-da! pedro gonnet - talk - 01.02.2008 09:27
Ancient Persian problems
You recently contributed to an AfD discussion on an article about ancient Persian history. I have been reviewing the contributions of the editors who have been involved in these and other related articles, and have found a considerable number of issues - bad writing, original research, lack of sourcing or citations, and POV problems. I have posted the results of my review at User:ChrisO/Ancient Persian problems (it's a work in progress, as I'm still going through the contributions). Please feel free to add to it as you see fit and leave any comments at User talk:ChrisO/Ancient Persian problems. I would be interested in any feedback that you might have. Thanks in advance.
- I've already had a quick scan, but will look again. I'll add any comments or whatever if they come to me .. not sure how helpful I'll be, as i) it takes a while for the amateur reviewer and/or part-time editor to spot some of the problems - which of course is why it's all so insidious; plus ii) I'm a little exhausted by all the BS above (enough to put you off from doing anything much really). But, if everyone does their little bit, we may get there eventually .... --Nickhh (talk) 00:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)