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Alerts template

I came across something I thought rather useful in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Kentucky. It's an Alerts template added into the main project template that links to current items such as reviews or XfD's. It would look something like this:

Template:WikiProject Ice Hockey alerts would have the template and documentation. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Alerts would have the alert items and would be transcluded in the template. A separate page would allow easier editing. Let me know what you think. Grsz 05:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This appears on the talk-page banner? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting idea. I think it might be better utilized if it was compacted a bit, then used as a userpage template. i.e.: If I transclude it to my userpage, I could easily see the XfD's you mentioned, among other things. Articles facing high amounts of vandalism come to mind as another reason for an alert. Resolute 16:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It could be useful on a userpage, as well as in the article template, is it could draw the attention of outside users who would maybe get involved. Grsz 16:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Look at User:B. Wolterding/Article alerts. I already set it up though. LegoKTM 05:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Teams

Perhaps the teams section on the current hockey infobox could be changed to include the years they played for that team similar to the soon to be deleted NHLretired infobox. Nothing would be drastically changed and it could still be used for both active and retired players. Beast from da East (talk) 22:04, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that is something we can do manually rather than with any change to the template itself. Resolute 00:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep. Remember to use en dashes. —Krm500 00:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

For several players, the field (former_teams / played_for) is already very long, even without the years (pipelinked teams and leagues). Perhaps we should have some kind of sub-template for this, in order to make the code readable. Simply adding newlines in the code together with the xml/html line(br)eak seems to cause layout issues. Alternatively, we could go ahead and add more and more things to the field, extending its lenght. Is there a hard-coded character limit somewhere that we will run into? --Bamsefar75 (talk) 15:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I actually think this doesn't need to be put in the infobox, as mentioned the field is already too long for many players to begin with. Ideally this information would be found in the career statistics portion of the page which can be seen at a quick glance. -Djsasso (talk) 01:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. No need for this in the infobox, it is well covered in the prose section. Just leads to confusion and clutter. – Nurmsook! 02:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Statistics on season articles

I was under the influence (wrong word perhaps? _{english not my 1st language, sorry!}) that The no statistic updates during the season applied to all articles, not just individual player articles? Can we really guarantee that the stats are reliable when so many people come in and update them? Thoughts? —Krm500 08:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Other than the current season articles (ie 2008 NJ Devils season) I believe it was agree that they shouldn't be updated mid-season. Blackngold29 20:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember that, I think the consensus was to only have rosters on the season article during the season. —Krm500 21:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, perhaps we missed it. The 2008–09 Pittsburgh Penguins season#Player stats usually gets updated every week or so, so I don't think it would be worth removing it since it's already there. However, it does seem like a good deal of work over a whole season, so maybe in the future (or now if they haven't been added yet) we should just have an External stat link until the season's conclusion. Blackngold29 21:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

the only thing I am updating stats wise on the Flames and Blue Jackets articles are the infoboxes. I'm leaving it to the anons to update the player stats. If they get too far behind, I'll just hide the chart and replace with an external link pointing to the team stats page on nhl.com or espn.com. Resolute 00:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I think most are getting updated fairly regularily. For instance, I update the Vancouver Canucks article within 24 hours of each game. Maybe for articles that don't get frequent edits, we could keep it off, but for those that do, like the Canucks, it's very valuable. – Nurmsook! 02:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't really have anything against it but I'm afraid soon people will start to make similar arguments for individual player articles. —Krm500 10:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I see very little evidence that even random IPs could update stats of every player after every game. Misplaced Pages's purpose isn't up to the second stats, that's ESPN or whoever's job. Blackngold29 15:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I see your worry with making the same arguments for player articles, but personally, when I update the stats on season articles, I do everything in one big edit. I add the game info plus the stats, everything gets updated in one single edit. If you're updating the score for the game log anyways, why not update the stats while you're at it. I think there's a very large consensus regarding not updating player article stats, personally I'm pretty anal about it, and remove 08-09 stats whenever I see them. – Nurmsook! 16:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Who coached the 1915-16 and 1916-17 Canadiens?

Okay, for the List of Stanley Cup champions, I'm starting to become confused. TSN.ca lists George Kennedy as the coach & manager of the 15-16 team (it doesn't list the coaches of runner ups), but NHL.com lists Newsy Lalonde, who would have been a player at the time. To add to the confusion, the official website of the Canadiens lists Lalonde as the coach and captain of the 15-16 team but does not include him (or Kennedy) on their list of Cup winning coaches . Meanwhile, wikipedia's own List of Montreal Canadiens head coaches lists Kennedy as the coach until 1921 (but it doesn't cite any sources, and the Canadiens website doesn't have a list of coaches that I have managed to find). So, does anyone know who the real coach of the team during those seasons would have been? -- Scorpion 03:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

According to Claude Mouton's book, The Montreal Canadiens, it was Kennedy. Mouton was publicity director for the Canadiens when the book came out in 1987. That is what I've been using. I think Kennedy's title was Manager, but not manager like today. Manager like in soccer. This may be why there is confusion. I'll tidy up the parts that say Lalonde and add the cites. Alaney2k (talk) 21:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I think I got that book. Among the colored shiney pages (it's mostly b&w pages), does it have the 75th Anniversary All-time Habs Team Photo (with Joliet in it)? GoodDay (talk) 00:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Page 49 is a picture of the Montreal Canadiens "All-Time Dream Team". Joliet is in the middle, and was labelled as the eldest. He is with Plante, Robinson, Blake, Beliveau, Dickie Moore, Doug Harvey, Maurice Richard and Bob Gainey, who was then still playing. No date on the photo. Alaney2k (talk) 23:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Confirmed; we've the same books. GoodDay (talk) 23:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Suspended Notation For Roster Template?

I guess I would be an avid roster junkie, today the NHL suspended John Zeiler. I went to the Kings' Roster Template and couldn't find a place to notate this. Is this something that could be written into the template or are suspended notations so insignificant they don't need to be noted? Shootmaster 44 (talk) 01:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't really think its important but I am sure it could be added in as a switch. -Djsasso (talk) 01:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know which trophy this is?

This is a trophy that is on display at the Hockey Hall of Fame. It is in the same case as the Memorial Cup so it's probably a CHL or junior award, and when I took a picture of the Mem Cup, this one was included and I thought it was an okay image so I uploaded it. The card at the bottom is hard to read but I think it reads "Arena Cup", but as far as I know, there is no such trophy awarded in hockey. -- Scorpion 19:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Viewed full size, the caption on the image appears to give us just enough info... "The Arena Cup was the championship trophy of the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association that was from 1905-06 (?) until 1908-09 ..." It gets too hard to read on my laptop screen after that. I would say that this award is a predecessor to the Memorial Cup. Resolute 19:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

You're right, here it is. There is already an image and it's better than mine, so it might as well be deleted. -- Scorpion 19:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, Legends of Hockey has a better image, but it isn't one we can use. Your free alternative would fit very well on the Montreal Wanderers article, given they were the only team to ever win it. Resolute 19:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

What I meant was, Somebody has already uploaded an image, but I uploaded a new version of mine as well. -- Scorpion 19:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

While I'm on the subject, I also got a pretty good picture of the "Father David Bauer Award". The problem is that not only is there no page for it here, I'm getting very few hits for it on google. Does anyone know what the award is and if a page is needed for it? -- Scorpion 19:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not positive, but I think it has something to do with contributions to building hockey. Father Bauer was instrumental in bringing the 1988 Olympics to Calgary and was vice president of hockey Canada among other things .-Djsasso (talk) 02:47, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

You could add the trophy's photo to his page too.-Wafulz (talk) 19:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Defenseman (ice hockey)

Should this be moved to just "Defenseman"? There's no page titled "Defenseman" - it redirects to "Defenseman (ice hockey)." RandySavageFTW (talk) 03:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe we have it like that because there are Defencemen in other sports and it was a pre-emptive move to not have to change that 5000 articles that probably link to it when it is eventually disambiguated. Nevermind the fact it should be moved to Defenceman and not Defenseman if it is moved to keep its current english variant since its been titled Defenceman (ice hockey) since its creation. -Djsasso (talk) 03:46, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

List of (NHL team) draft picks (section 2)

Since the FLC nomination of List of Calgary Flames draft picks was not promoted, I was wondering if we can make shortened versions of these lists. For example, WP:NFL only have their draft picks for the first round (ex. List of Baltimore Ravens first-round draft picks, List of Philadelphia Eagles first-round draft picks). I think that we should also make shortened versions of these article, but not delete the current full ones, as many of the users who contribute to this WikiProject spent many hours on it (ex. Resolute). So, up for the challenge? -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 10:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so, shortened lists just to get promoted are ridiculous. We are not here just to get badges for articles, these lists should contain all the relevant information available as the current list does. Just because people are being ridiculous at the FAN nominee pages doesn't mean we should degrade how things are laid out. -Djsasso (talk) 15:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The Flames list failed due to problems with the sorting function. I've gotten far too busy lately to properly fix it, but once I do, I intend to re-nominate, at which point I expect it would pass. I agree wtih Djsasso. A gold star is not in and of itself an indication that a list is of the highest quality. I'd rather the draft picks lists contain all draft picks. Resolute 16:51, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I've personally always disagreed with how the things are done on MLB, NFL, and NBA articles. The fact is, List of Calgary Flames draft picks is one of, if not the best draft pick list article for NHL teams. It is already looked upon as a guide to formatting less complete articles. While the gold star is a nice addition, it's really not that big of a deal. As Djsasso mentioned, shortened lists just to get promoted are ridiculous. While some people may be here just to get badges for articles, and you have done a great job at this, I think most people around here would argue against your proposition. – Nurmsook! 19:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Featured list criteria #4: Structure. It is easy to navigate, and includes—where helpful—section headings and table sort facilities. I do not believe that scrolling all the way down just to see all of the draft picks are navigable. I don't (really) want stars, I want the readers to have better access to the information, and most reader tend to look at the first round draft picks rather than all the other draft picks. I'm going to ask why WP:NFL did shorten their list, and see if this can work out with the WikiProject. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 21:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Most often projects shorten their lists due to laziness or the quest for gold stars. There is no other reason to cut out vital information on the subject. Scrolling down does not take much effort so it doesn't violate #4. Nevermind the fact that you can make the list sortable by round in which case they don't even have to scroll. -Djsasso (talk) 22:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

This isn't an either/or decision. It's Misplaced Pages, have your cake and eat it too. Per Nike, Just do it. I doubt that the first-round-only articles would be subject to a mandatory merge. Just fire up the shoeshaw and do it. BTW, it can get a little hard to properly source all draft picks for the entire history of a franchise. The myriad of lower-round trades (especially those made before draft day) just aren't documented well beyond the last few years.--2008Olympian 22:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

But you don't need to document the trades, just the players who were drafted, and that is very easy to source. -Djsasso (talk) 22:56, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

So can we just make the first-round draft picks articles, and then put them on the See also sections of the "List of (NHL team) draft picks"? Also, I think we should put documents about the draft pick trades as some readers might want to know how they got more than two first-round draft picks or how they never got a first-round draft picks on a random year. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 23:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I would say no, its duplication and there are categories for each of the teams first round picks if hitting the sort button on the main draft page is too difficult. In general we haven't noted trades of draft picks because its very hard to source them and as Olympian above mentioned when you get to a certain point they become almost impossible to discover the true origin because they get traded multiple times. However, this is all just my opinion, I would say wait and see what the rest of the project says. -Djsasso (talk) 23:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, personally. It is basically a content fork, as a simple sort by round on this article would give the same information. I'd probably AfD such a fork, and I would be utterly shocked if it was kept. Resolute 05:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Uber-amateur leagues

What's the opinion on minor collegiate club leagues, such as Blue Ridge Hockey Conference and Great Midwest Hockey League. They don't seem particularly notable, the teams aren't even actual collegiate teams. Grsz 17:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps they can be merged onto the ACHA page into a list of member schools? --Smashville 19:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree...seems a little much to go outside the ACHA page, although I'll be totally honest, I still don't really understand the notability of these teams. Seems like just a club to me, and most universities have a heck of a lot of those. Like a college beer league almost...But I could be totally wrong. – Nurmsook! 19:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

You're correct. Some colleges have 3 hockey teams - while the one that participates in NCAA competition is notable, the others that are clubs and their leagues are not. Grsz 20:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I could go either way, the leagues I could possibly see having notability but it would be very little and I would probably agree on a merge and redirect to ACHA page. The teams I would definitely nix. -Djsasso (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Or at worst, a list for each division, given there are over 300 teams in the ACHA. Resolute 05:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Pit Martin reported missing

Just a heads up on something that came across my watchlist this evening. Someone added an unsourced blurb to Pit Martin stating that Martin has been reported missing following a snowmobile accident. After some further investigation, I came across this article from RDS, which, although in French, confirms the addition. I've translated the article as best as I can and cleaned up the addition, but hopefully some of you guys can keep an eye on this page for the next little while as well. – Nurmsook! 06:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Copy vios

It seems that there are lots of ice hockey articles with text cut and pasted from other sites. An editor has put the copyvio template on lots of articles. See Misplaced Pages:Copyright_problems/2008_December_2. It says not to edit them until an administrator determines what to do. Alaney2k (talk) 17:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah you should just rip out the copyright info or rewrite yourself. Looks like a certain user did this alot. I have already looked at a few today. -Djsasso (talk) 17:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I was just coming to request the assistance of your project with this matter. :) I've also brought it up at WP:AN, here.

I would be very grateful for assistance cleaning the copyright violations out of these articles. As I'm one of more active volunteers at the copyright problems board, I'm likely to wind up having to clean a lot of these myself when they come current on December 9th, and I have no background in hockey, which means I'd most likely have to just reduce them to a stub. There are (if I'm remembering correctly) 43 articles that have substantially copied content from other sites. (I think at least one of those is football, rather than hockey.) If anybody is able to look through the creator's other contributions to see if there are unidentified concerns, that would also be a great service to the project. I have looked at and located all I could from the article's he created. --Moonriddengirl 17:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Stubbing might be the quickest option for now, but I will try rewriting what I can as well. Cause deletion for these notable people really isn't valid. -Djsasso (talk) 17:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

No, though since the copyright infringement goes all the way back, the best option for some of them may be to rewrite them in temporary space as the template advises, so that they can replace the infringing versions. If you simply stub them, please explain why in the edit summary and at the article's talk page to help avoid reintroduction of the infringement. And thank you for your help. :) --Moonriddengirl 17:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Delete them, and then recreate a stubby version is the best opinion. Secret 17:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Ahh that might be a good idea. -Djsasso (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I created a temp stub for Milt Halliday. Did I just waste my time? Alaney2k (talk) 18:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Nope, can always use whatever you created. -Djsasso (talk) 18:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I managed to clean up most of them for now, they all need to be expanded of course. The following I have not had a chance to clean up so if anyone wants to clean them up that would rock. They had alot of info added into the articles after Michael Drew created them so I haven't pruned yet. Barry Smith (ice hockey b. 1952), Myles Lane, John McMullen (engineer), Steve Brule, David McNab -Djsasso (talk) 22:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The Barry Smith article is almost a 100% lift from that other site. I am not sure if we qualify assistant coaches as notable, even if they were/are in the NHL. I don't know if the site qualifies as a 'reliable source'. Alaney2k (talk) 23:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok stubified that one then. -Djsasso (talk) 11:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Good job, guys! Outstanding work, as always, in cleaning up this mess! Resolute 15:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I've done a basic stub on Steve Brule, Myles Lane, and David McNab. Can someone make these actual articles instead of temps? Thanks! Patken4 (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Done. -Djsasso (talk) 23:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Meticulous status reports

What are people's thoughts on this meticulous status report for a team's players? I think it is too much info. The only notes should be if the player is injured and possibly if the player has been called up. I'm not sure if this is on any other pages; this is just the page I happened to be glancing at. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 19:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

It should be switched over to our new roster template is what it should be. -Djsasso (talk) 19:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I personally think that notating the players on ATOs/PTOs are ok, but when a player is called up to the NHL or sent down to the ECHL/CHL he should be removed (or hidden). For ECHL contracted players I always use a section that notates where that player has gone and that they are on a Reign (or whoever) contract. That is how I have been handling the current rosters for the Manchester Monarchs, Ontario Reign and Reading Royals. I use the contract status part of the chart to indicate whether a player is on an ATO or PTO. As for the new roster template, it doesn't seem to carry enough information for use on minor league rosters. If someone could add spaces for the various injury lists in the ECHL (3 day, 7 day, 30 day), the suspended lists in the ECHL, berevement lists in the ECHL and a place to notate contract status, then I would be in favour of using the new roster template. Yes I am a roster junkie, but the old template was easier to adapt to the various minor leagues' little intricacies. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Oops, forgot to add this. Perhaps we should create a standard convention for dealing with the minor leagues. My vote is that the template resemble what I have been doing on the Manchester Monarchs page for the AHL and Ontario Reign/Reading Royals for the ECHL. Since the Kings have no affiliates in the CHL nor the IHL, I don't pay attention to them enough to say what is the best idea. But I'm guessing a simple modification for their injury list intricacies would suffice. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 04:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Notablity of assistant coaches and assistant general managers

Two of the copyvio pages make me wonder about their notability. David McNab is the assistant GM of the Anaheim Ducks. Barry Smith was an assistant coach for several NHL teams and is now a coach in the KHL, I think. McNab's page was a lift from the Iowa Chops (ouch!) page. Smith's page was from a hockey fan site. The text might be reputable, but I don't how much it qualifies as published. I don't know enough about either very much. In any case, are assistant coaches and assistant GMs notable? In both cases, there is some head coach experience, but how much of that is notable. I could probably prod both pages and it wouldn't be noticed, but that just might not be right. :-) Alaney2k (talk) 15:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I prodded another assistant GM yesterday, didn't prod McNab because of his work with USAHockey. Smith I didn't prod because he is a coach in the KHL. But thats just my take on things. -Djsasso (talk) 15:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

If you feel that becoming an assistant coach or an assistant GM in the NHL (or of course, lower levels) is not enough to make the person notable by itself, I would agree with that. Alaney2k (talk) 16:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Yup, that is what I was awkwardly saying. -Djsasso (talk) 16:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

NHL Canadian Championships

For an imaginary championship, NHL Canadian Championships is a good idea. They are even keeping track of the games, although some teams play an uneven number of games between them. I've prodded the articles. They do use the NHL logo without permission, I'm sure. Alaney2k (talk) 16:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I've tagged the image for speedy deletion on commons. There is no possible way the NHL logo is permissable over there. Resolute 20:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I had the local version deleted, but didn't notice there was a commons version.-Djsasso (talk) 20:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

James D. Norris & Bruce Norris

Hiya folks. I've edited those articles to point out, that those fellows are half-brothers. Does anybody know if this is correct? I'm certain I've read it somewheres. GoodDay (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hockey's Future

I am currently trying to prove at the FA nom for Luc Bourdon that the website is indeed a reliable source, but can't find the right places on the site. If anyone could help out in either proving its reliable or not, that would be great. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that we ever vetted that site to see if it was reliable. The reason hockeydb is reliable is that it has a page of references, I don't know if hockeysfuture does. -Djsasso (talk) 22:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

On the About page, it lists the main writers. Some of them have been involved in soem of the more important hockey publications out there, including the ISS guide. I just want to use the site because htey summed up the potential of Bourdon better than any other article I found. I could go and find another article, but it just becomes difficult to do 3 years after the draft. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think its reliable for the same reason you do. But FAC people can be picky. -Djsasso (talk) 23:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

IMO such sites should be used sporadically as references (i.e. as you have done in this case), but never as a main source for an article. —Krm500 23:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm always on the fence when it comes to Hockey's Future. Some of the writers there are professionals with more respected publications, but others are heavily biased and really detract from the overall quality of the site. It is a case where I would judge reliability on the reputation of the writer rather than the reputation of the website. Resolute 01:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree, use wisely as done in this case. —Krm500 01:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not really into arguing the notablity of the site right now, so I found some better references. I was hesitent from the start of using it, but at the time I couldn't find anything better. Regardless, if only the FA reviewers trusted our judgement. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Can cites be found for these facts?

While working on New York Rangers seasons, I had trouble finding references for a few footnotes. Two of them relate to NHL realignments; the first is the 1974–75 realignment, more specifically how the Rangers were affected, and the second is the Patrick Division's move to the Prince of Wales Conference. The third note that needs a cite is the fact that in the 1980s and early 1990s, division champions were determined by the playoffs and not the regular season. There are no good sources online, and I don't have any books on the league's history. If anybody has books or access to old newspaper archives, I would really appreciate any help. Giants2008 (17-14) 16:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

You couldn't have asked this before I packed all of my books to move, could you? lol. I've added a citation for the first two statements. The third is trickier, as I can't find a specific mention of it, but it is alluded to several times in MacFarlane's 100 Years of Hockey. i.e., from the 1982-83 playoff section: "The New York Islanders captured the Patrick Division title as they defeated the injury-riddled Rangers in six games." Not sure if that is solid enough to use as a source. Resolute 01:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't you just hate moving? haha... Then again maybe its just cause I just moved a few thousand kilometres. -Djsasso (talk) 16:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

At least that makes it worth it. I'm moving about 3km. Resolute 18:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the two cites! For the division championships, do any books have a list of winners? That would probably do it. Failing that, the New York Times free archives do go back far enough to cover all three seasons in question, so I'll end up looking there next. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I split the notes into three seperate notes, one for each season that needs one. The NYT archives provided strong refs for 1986 and 1990, which leaves 1992. Does the 100 Years of Hockey book, or another, have a sentence for the 1992 Penguins that is similar to the Islanders one above? If so, that would be perfect. If not, I'll use something from NYT, even though it doesn't explicitly say "Patrick Division title"; what's avaliable is probably good enough, but I'm always looking for the best sources possible. While I'm here, the article is now at peer review. If anyone from the project has any suggestions, I'd love to see them. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

100 years ends at 1990, so no help there, unfortunately. Resolute 04:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I found a Seattle Times source for the other note through a Google News search, so I'm all done. Thanks again for the refs. Giants2008 (17-14) 17:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Debut goals

Do we have an article on NHL players who scored a goal in their debut? I thought I remembered seeing one. Thanks, Grsz 00:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

We began building a list at User:FutureNJGov/sandbox/scoredebut. Sort of died down, but still there! – Nurmsook! 01:54, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

If you look to add to the list, check out this list of Sabres players who scored in their first game in Buffalo. You'll have to sort out the true first-gamers from the players who were acquired in trades (and you'll have to look up the actual dates, which is why I abandoned it just now :)), but it's a good list nonetheless. Skudrafan1 (talk) 16:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that must have been it. Thanks, Grsz 16:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Conn Smythe Trophy

In the Conn Smythe Trophy article, is a trophy winner considered "active" only if they're in the NHL? People have been changing Claude Lemieux's colour to "active" even though he's playing below the NHL.-Wafulz (talk) 22:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)'

The whole "player is still active" thing has always been a little vague. Perhaps it should directly state "player is still active in the NHL". That would certainly remove some confusion. – Nurmsook! 23:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

That would make sense.-Wafulz (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it always was meant to be active in NHL. Might as well change the wording. -Djsasso (talk) 23:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Changed the wording or accept people changing the status. ;) —Krm500 23:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I have a similar beef with 2007–08 NHL season#Last games - unlike Sami Kapanen, did Jagr announce retirement from the NHL? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grsz11 (talk • contribs)

Until Jagr returns to the NHL, we should keep listing him under the last games section. GoodDay (talk) 17:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

There is actually a consensus listed somewhere on what qualifies someone to be in those lists. Let me find the link. -Djsasso (talk) 19:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Debuts and Last Games Notability. Though I suppose it doesn't cover the Jagr situation, but I agree with GoodDay. Technically he has played his last NHL game at the moment, it can be changed when/if he comes back, which seems highly unlikely. -Djsasso (talk) 19:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Good templates

Hello. I would like to know whether there are any ice hockey player pages which are considered as "good", so I can copy the format and use this in future-creation of any ice hockey player pages. Also, are there any "good" pages for players which I can use, as a guide. --VoletyVole (talk) 23:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Follow this link and click show next to featured articles and you will see the best articles we have to offer when it comes to hockey. -Djsasso (talk) 23:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Read the projects player pages format to get an idea of how a basic article should look like. Regards. —Krm500 00:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Basically, Joe Sakic, Martin Brodeur, Trevor Linden and Ray Emery are exmaples of featured player articles. Articles like Curtis Joseph, Markus Naslund, Frank McGee and Sidney Crosby are good articles. Any of these would make excellent templates to use in building up the articles you wish to. Resolute 00:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

NHL entry drafts Template

Any interest or objections to the following template?

This format is used in NFL Draft pages and allows linking to any years draft as opposed to the succession box currently in use on some of the NHL Entry Draft pages. I have not added this to any of the Amateur or Entry draft pages but I am willing to if there are no objections. Slysplace 02:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

That looks solid. -- bmitchelf•T•F 03:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

What about knocking "Entry" out of the titles and throwing on the Expansion Drafts? Grsz 14:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Can do - and will work on this today Slysplace 14:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

You may need to clear your cache or go directly to the template to see the changes but I believe I've added all of the Expansion draft information available as well as several other related drafts to the template. I've tried it a few different ways and I feel the current layout addresses any chronological issues as well as a defined separation of the different draft processes. Slysplace 16:34, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps all of the expansion draft articles should be kept together, instead of breaking them apart and putting some in between the Amateur and Entry Drafts. The Entry Draft was just a renaming of the Amateur Draft, so those should be kept consectutive on the template. Then you can have the list of Supplementary drafts followed by all the Expansion drafts. It'll just look a lot cleaner and less confusing if they're all together. Otherwise it looks great! – Nurmsook! 19:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I've consolidated the expansion drafts, and I know that NHL Amateur Draft redirects to NHL Entry Draft but it just seems important to keep them seperate as the draft was renamed for a reason. Any thoughts? Slysplace 19:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100%. Sorry if it sounded like I wanted you to condense those as well. The way it looks now is exactly what think is best :-). One grammar thing though, make sure you use endashes to separate the years, and perhaps present would be better than 2009, or nothing at all. – Nurmsook! 21:20, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

As originally noted I based this on the NFL Draft template, I've never liked the expansion drafts intermingled with regular season drafts and I'm glad someone else agrees. As for 2009 I think the removal would be better than present however I also think something needs to remain as there is an article and it will eventually be a draft page, I'll let others weigh in on this one before I change it. User:Kaiser matias beat me to the endash which is just fine by me. Thank's for all the input. Slysplace 22:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Emergency backup goalies

I wasn't going to AFD them yet, but what are the projects thoughts on the notability of novelties like Brett Leonhardt and Chris Levesque? I'm on the fence on them. ccwaters (talk) 14:57, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I brought up Chris Levesque back in March (here's the discussion) and he was deemed notable by the project's members. I would guess Leonhardt would be notable for the same reasons. Skudrafan1 (talk) 15:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Alrightly. I removed the SUNY-Oswego alumni cat, because he obviously transferred and therefore is not an alumnus. If you're going to create categories for both hockey programs, you should specify "men's ice hockey" because both schools have women's teams in Div III ECAC West . ccwaters (talk) 15:22, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to put back the SUNY-Oswego alumni cat back in, as the American Heritage Dictionary defines an alumnus as either someone who has attended the school (or a "former student of a school") or someone who has graduated from the school. I've personally attended two Canadian universities and consider myself an alumnus of both, even though one of them was only a one-year thing. As for notability, no question that both pass. Similarly, Aaron Sorochan would pass if he were to have an article created, as he is another goaltender to have had this experience. Lastly, can we come to some sort of consensus about college/university team names in the stats section? I had originally put the school names in there, not athletic team names, as that is the way that most ice hockey player articles have stats listed (ie: Paul Stastny). I personally like that way much better, as they are representing the whole school, not just the athletics department. I'll leave the change you made for now though, as that's just a housekeeping thing. – Nurmsook! 19:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally I've always used the athletic nickname for the stats. Most div I schools actually have an article for their athletic programs (Denver Pioneers, or even Denver Pioneers men's ice hockey). There's more detailed info at these articles then at the main school article. ccwaters (talk) 15:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh totally. I always link to the athletic team articles, it's just more of a question of if the piped link should say Denver Pioneers or University of Denver. I personally like linking to the team page, but keeping the University name like so: University of Denver for the reason I indicated earlier. Just was hoping to get some other thoughts on that. – Nurmsook! 19:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I like to list the university name and then link to the team article. Team names tend to confuse people not familiar with the universities themselves as news articles rarely refer to the team name, they usually refer to the university name. Atleast up here in Canada. -Djsasso (talk) 21:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I also use the team name, seeing thats how the players are represented. The school name itself is mentioned in the prose, so it all works out in the end. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

1. národní hokejová liga

Hello. I have just created 1. národní hokejová liga - I hope you can understand this article. This is maybe without references, is this a problem? I have taken most informations from the Czech page and the German page, also from hokej.cz. --VoletyVole (talk) 22:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

References are important to establish that the article is notable. They don't necessarily all have to be in English, although it is helpful as this is the English Misplaced Pages. That said, it's good to see more coverage of less publicized leagues here on Misplaced Pages. Kaiser matias (talk) 09:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I question whether or not this league is notable enough to have an article. Join the discussion on its talk page. Masterhatch (talk) 19:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I think, that for Misplaced Pages, when a player leaves the NHL for the league of another country, he is forgotten. I understand, sure, because there are mostly Americans who make and edit ice hockey pages here, however I can try and help with some. I know the NHL is the best around the world, but players have to start to play in some league in other countries! --VoletyVole (talk) 21:45, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

My concern here was more that I was just making sure that this league was not just a glorified beer league. Since I couldn't find any English sources, I was asking people here for their thoughts. Masterhatch (talk) 07:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

What is a beer league? Certainly, players drink beer, but not during the games, of course! --VoletyVole (talk) 08:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

He meant a recreational league. DMighton (talk) 10:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup of NHL Draft pages?

Is there any opposition to a cleanup of the NHL Amateur Draft and NHL Entry Draft pages? My suggestion is an attempt to add a uniform and consistent look to all of the pages including format and colors. My suggested changes would include:

• Updating the sub-section headings from numerals to words.
• Removing the secondary TOC or "tocindent" and allowing the default TOC to prevail.
• Updating all tables to wikitable format including styles. (this format could also allow for sorting)
• Removing the periods after numerals.
• Adding a column in the tables for Position (thus separating it from the players name).
• A general cleanup of the existing tables.
• Addition of NHL Hall of Fame citation where necessary and available.
• Removal of the succession box and NHL Template which reads National Hockey League (2008–09) with the NHL Entry Drafts refined over the last few days.
• Categorization if necessary.
• And lastly if the page contains a significant introduction and player data with citation upgrading it's quality assessment to C Class or better.

I submit the following two examples 1963 NHL Amateur Draft and 1964 NHL Amateur Draft as a starting point. This format easily identifies areas where the list or article is lacking for prospective editors, while enhancing the quality of the series. Any help is obviously appreciated especially in the areas of diacritic which I will never master. Thoughts, criticisms, suggestions? Slysplace 00:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for it as long as you don't do something goofy like orange text on a black background. :P 93JC (talk) 03:21, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Just wanted to share with you that I compared all our main draft articles nine months ago (45 Amateur/Entry), to summarize what condition the lists were in:

• In 6 lists (1963 to 1968) all rounds were brief.
• In 15 lists (1969 to 1972, 1974 to 1977, 1979, 1982+1983, 1990 to 1992 and 1999) first round were detailed, but the following rounds were brief.
• In 8 lists (1980+1981, 1986 to 1989 and 1994+1995) first and second round were detailed, while the following rounds were missing completely or selectively.
• In 4 lists (1998 and 2000 to 2002) the first, second, third and sometimes fourth round were detailed, while the following rounds were brief or selections.
• In 2 lists (1996 and 2003) nearly all rounds were detailed.
• In 1 list (1973) all rounds were detailed but lacking some info.
• In 9 lists (1978, 1984+1985, 1993, 1997 and 2004 to 2007) all rounds were detailed.

If the state above still is true, all this could probably be fixed semi-automatically using a good source or two, more easily than by hand. Or maybe we could split the work up based on interest. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The state of these pages remains true. I have already converted 1963 - 71 to tables, expanded all available player data in those tables, and re-assessed them. True they may be lacking in wikilinks to player positions and junior / club teams and some still need expanded openings, not to mention link verification and DAB work will be inevitable. Semi-automatic editing is one solution but writing a script for a project this size could be just as tedious as manual editing. I have been using an external editor to do much of this work, find and replace style but there is a lot of intensive by-hand editing involved as well. The key I feel is to keep them uniform in look, style and functionality. Slysplace 23:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, doing search and replace is considered semi-automatic in my world, so there you go. Also a sidenote on diacritics: Since all NHL Draft pages are very "North American hockey", our project policy is to have the dias either none or hidden (see mainpage). So, probably nothing needs to be addressed in that field, unless there happens to be dias visible somewhere in the articles. Håkan Loob in 1980 is one. --Bamsefar75 (talk) 03:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to ignore the dias for now... I've completed thru 1973 so far on the cleanup and data expansion, and I'm almost done with 74 but going crosseyed... time for a break tomorrow is another day. Slysplace 03:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Remember that teams still should have them though... —Krm500 03:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I've come across any yet, but any help in spot checking is appreciated. I Believe I'm finished with 1963 - 1976 at this point with the changes I proposed earlier (and a few other changes I thought would enhance the lists) Slysplace 15:44, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Kenora Thistles

I am thinking of making articles for the Jr. A Kenora Thistles that played in the MJHL from 1968 until 1982... they were known as the Muskies for the first half of their existence... but I would also like to make a separate article for the Kenora Thistles that played in the MJHL from 1930 through 1940 as well as the current Allan Cup contending Sr. AAA team that now exists... any thoughts on how I go about naming these articles? DMighton (talk) 15:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The first two I would name Kenora Thistles (1968–1982) and Kenora Thistles (1926–1940) and the last one Kenora Thistles (senior). -Djsasso (talk) 21:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks man. DMighton (talk) 23:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I would also make a page at Kenora Thistles (disambiguation) and point to it from the main Thistles page which I am sure you planned to. -Djsasso (talk) 00:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Definitely... I'll probably get started on them either tonight or tomorrow... DMighton (talk) 00:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to skip the (senior) part and use Kenora Thistles since it's the only active one? —Krm500 01:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

No because Kenora Thistles is a page about the Stanley Cup winning Kenora Thistles which is obviously the more well known. -Djsasso (talk) 02:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll go stand in the corner from now on... —Krm500 02:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

LOL... poor Thistles. DMighton (talk) 03:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Also did one up for Kenora Thistles (intermediate). DMighton (talk) 20:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

"French Canadian" Players

I'm really not going to sort through 25 archives to see if this came up before, so if it has, just point me to the previous discussion.

I noticed that on the article for Vincent Lecavalier he is listed in the lead as a "French Canadian" hockey player. This is not the case with most of our player articles. Some articles like Mario Lemieux and Martin Biron describe players as "Canadian professional ice hockey player", other articles such as Patrick Roy and Guy Lafleur simply say "professional ice hockey player" with no mention of nationality, aside for place of birth. Our guidelines (using Scott Walker as an example) say that nationality should be mentioned in the lead, which I believe is doubly important for national team-calibre players. Now I'm not going to get into a debate about the national or cultural status of "French Canadians", but there's no "Team French Canada" at the olympics, so for our purposes would it not be best to refer to all players from Canada as "Canadian"? Random89 17:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, he is French Canadian. His citizenship is Canadian, and maybe American too. There have been Team Quebecs at various tournaments. What's the standard at WP:BIOGRAPHY? Alaney2k (talk) 17:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I would standardize it to "Canadian". There is no need to get that specific, unless we are going to start referring to all players by their cultural heritage as well. Do we list Jarome Iginla as "African Canadian" in the lead? I think not. Resolute 17:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Yup I agree, I think this was a case of POV pushing. I know I have had to fix stuff like this on a number of pages awhile back from someone who was anti-canada and pro-quebec. -Djsasso (talk) 17:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

yes, it should be "Canadian", not "French Canadian". Masterhatch (talk) 18:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, that's what I thought. For Vinny I'm gonna change French Canadian to Canadian. Now the question is, should we go through other articles that don't list a nationality and add in "Canadian"? Though I haven't checked, I have a suspicion that it is only players from Quebec which don't have this listed. This can be a touchy subject for some editors. Random89 20:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC) EDIT: Resolute already fixed this case, and I did the same to Daniel Briere but what should we do about, say, Maurice Richard (to really cut to the point). Random89 20:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

On a lot of articles, the nationality was left off, simply on the assumption that the reader would know what country they are from based on the city, state/province. It is very North America-centric thinking rather than any nationalist ideal, I think. I'd say to add it in if you like. Resolute 20:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for listing players as "French Canadian" the moment that (a) France reconquers Canada, or (b) we start listing "British Columbian Canadian" and "Manitoban Canadian" as well.  RGTraynor  11:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad it's been decided to stick with Canadian. Imagine having to go through all the articles & adding British Canadian, English Canadian, Scottish Canadian etc etc? GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Why does BC retain 'British'? It sounds like another country. Substitute Canadian for British at least. CC would be waaaaaaaaaayy cooler. They could possibly get sponsored. How about some exceptions. Can we list Harper as 'Albertan'? He's not liked at all in his hometown. (And, it appears is losing support elsewhere... ):-) Alaney2k (talk) 19:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Harper is considered a God by many in Calgary...that being said perhaps they will finally get sick of him. In someways I am glad to have escaped Albertas conservative lock. -Djsasso (talk) 20:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Blasphemy!  ;) Resolute 20:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

As long as the Liberals keep shooting themselves in the foot, Harper will be around for awhile. GoodDay (talk) 20:45, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that Tommy Dunderdale is up for GA. Here is someone born in Australia who moved at 17 in Canada. I know that for the infobox we list both citizenships, but his 'lead paragraph nationality' is listed as Canadian. Should it not be Australian? Even if he was raised in Canada? Do we have a 'typical' line where its the born nation, or the 'raised' nation? Although in Dunderdale's case, it seems to be 'adopted' country. 21:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Another example... I just added dual citizenship to Bob Nystrom but article currently doesnt say if he is Swedish, Canadian, Swedish Canadian or Canadian Swedish. There are a lot of fascinating categories, but only Category:Swedish immigrants to Canada suggests he is Swedish. Not sure if this really is possible to say what he is, or even add it to Misplaced Pages. SIHA even views him as optional in their list of Swedish Stanley Cup champions (click on "Svenska Stanley Cupvinnare" (Swedish)). --Bamsefar75 (talk) 21:31, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me started on those various descent categories...I have been ighting with Mayumashu or however you spell it for years about them. He litterally just guesses by the last name and has told me such....and he has created thousands of these categories an populated them. Personally I would never trust a single category related to so and so of x descent. -Djsasso (talk) 21:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as a line that we have...there isn't one...this is one of those hotly debated areas across all of wiki. I would probably just leave that sentence out of the lead on ambiguous people, but thats just avoiding the issue. For the record I am on the side of listing it as country of birth. You are "from" where you are born, regardless of nationality. He came from Austrailia and went to Canada. -Djsasso (talk) 21:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Sheesh, Nystrom is a mess. There are all sorts of odd or unreferenced categories on that article. Where is the cite for his conversion to Judaism? Canadian ice hockey expatriates in the US? Never mind the lead, these categories need to be addressed. I mean (while there is nothing wrong with it :-) ) why does Misplaced Pages even have a conversion to Judaism category? In this case, there is no reference. Maybe the best approach is to leave out nationality in the lead when there are two citizenships in the infobox. The lead is supposed to address why an article is notable and summarize it. It's more appropriate in the dual cases to list born in X and raised in Y, if it is noted in the prose of the article. Like Dunderdale. But not use the 'Canadian' or 'Australian' or 'Australian' Canadian term. (There is probably a more specific word for it) Alaney2k (talk) 22:13, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

It gets better, actually. Someone actually tagged Eric Nystrom with the Jewish athlete cat based on Bob's apparent conversion. Not sure what to make of that at all. Resolute 04:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Without trying, I found a cite saying Eric Nystrom is Jewish. Located here, it says he is, but makes no mention of his father, Bobby. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:00, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually ... Dunderdale's parents were emigrants from England, neither of them were Canadian, so I think I'd like to see a cite for Canadian citizenship, if this is up for GA.  RGTraynor  06:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

In those days, was there a difference in citizenship? I mean, was there a specific Canadian and Australian citizenship or were persons born in either country considered British subjects (only)? You know, they were just 'colonies of the Empire? In that case, he might have not been able to become a Canadian citizen and maybe it didn't matter for work rules, like it might today. Alaney2k (talk) 17:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

List of current NHL team rosters

In the 'List of current NHL team rosters' article, it seems there is a limit on the 'template include' size. In my browser, the last three templates (LA, Phoenix and San Jose) don't get displayed. When I tried to do a blank space update to see if they need to be 're-included', I got the error that the 'include size' was too large. So, what is the solution? Move to two pages? I was looking to see what rosters were out of date, as I see some date back to November 2. Alaney2k (talk) 17:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I think I am going to make an eastern conference and western conference page and leave this one as a disambig. -Djsasso (talk) 13:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Infact its already done now. -Djsasso (talk) 13:51, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess that's the best solution. Maybe the league will contract. (We can hope) Alaney2k (talk) 15:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Was probably too big to scroll through anyways, I rarely go to that page so I never noticed before. I noticed on the talk page that the problem has been there since last october so its probably a side effect of our new templates. Which isn't that big a deal though. -Djsasso (talk) 15:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Just looking through the page and noticed something, Nikolai Zherdev's little flag was shown as the Russian flag even though he was born in Kiev which is in the Ukraine. For the purposes of the roster templates, should the flag represent where they were born or the nationality they prefer to play with? I think where they are born should be used, otherwise you would have the oddity of say Petr Nedved with a Canadian flag even though he is by birth a Czech. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 11:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The long standing consensus on this has been to use the country they play with internationally. -Djsasso (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

First criteria is what country they represent in IIHF competitions. Somewhere we have a list of such nationalistic oddities. I think it might be a branch off of someone user page ccwaters (talk) 18:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Buchanan-Hermit/NHL Player Nationalities (Flags) ccwaters (talk) 18:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The column which contains the flags lists the player's nationality. Nationality is not determined by place of birth, at least in many countries it's not. Btw, Zherdev's country of birth is the USSR, not Ukraine. Bohdan80 (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Which is why we list the country the have played for internationally first. If they have never played internationally we list place of birth. -Djsasso (talk) 00:22, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

If they have never played internationally we list place of birth. No, if they have never played internationally we still list nationality. Bohdan80 (talk) 15:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is not what the WP:CONSENSUS is. Unless you can source they do not have citizenship in their birth country and do have it in another country. Do not confuse nationality and ethnicity, they are different. -Djsasso (talk) 15:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

We assume nationality (citizenship) based on place of birth but what we list is still nationality not place of birth as evidenced by the fact that when the two differ we disregard place of birth. Also it seems it doesn't even have to be sourced : the very first player listed in the list of current NHL Western Conference team rosters is given a flag different from his country of birth without any source to justify it. Bohdan80 (talk) 17:18, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

When the two differ and we can source the fact that they differ, ie Craig Adams playing internationally then we list the nationality they most recently represented. There may be mistakes on some rosters no doubt, but this has been discussed in the past and the decision was to list place of birth until you can prove they are another nationality, we can't just assume they are or are not a certain nationality. Anyways without proof they are a different nationality than their birth location it would be original research to assume they were someting different. Playing on a national team prooves they have a different nationality because to compete in a major international competition you have to have citizenship in that country, which is a round about way of sourcing their nationality without a direct quote from a paper. -Djsasso (talk) 17:30, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

You are confused. If you look at the rosters list, you will see that the column with the flags IS named 'Nat' with a link to Nationality. It IS what we are listing. Birth place is NOT what we are listing in this column.

we can't just assume they are or are not a certain nationality : this is exactly what you're saying we do, assume the player has the nationality of his birth country unless proved otherwise.

As for Craig Adams playing internationally, it is not mentionned in his article, let alone sourced. So did he really play internationally ? Bohdan80 (talk) 20:41, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Well, it is an educated guess rather than an assumption, really. Lacking any evidence to suggest otherwise, a player's nationality is their country of birth, or its successor state. Resolute 21:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

List of members of the Hockey Hall of Fame

Could someone please fix the Larry Murphy link? I don't know how to. RandySavageFTW (talk) 22:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

You forgot a "|". ;-) I fixed it for you. Maxim_(talk) 22:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Tampa Bay Lightning

Just curious. Has Halpern replaced Maszaros as an alternate captain? or is Halpern now a third alternate. GoodDay (talk) 19:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Knowing that franchise, I doubt anyone other than the owners knows for sure. The Lightning website does not list Halpern as an alternate, however. Resolute 19:55, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It appears that others disagree at List of current NHL captains and alternate captains article. GoodDay (talk) 20:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd say wait a day or two and see if the Lightning site updates with such a change. If not, revert it back and ask the user to provide a cite. Resolute 21:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Okie Dokie. GoodDay (talk) 21:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I've done as you've suggested. But, Meszaros continues to be replaced with Halpern. It's my guess that Tocchet's has indeed made the change, but nobody's made note of it. GoodDay (talk) 20:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

List of family relations in the National Hockey League

My sympathies in advance for anyone who maintains this list, as yet another Sutter is set to make his NHL debut. Brett Sutter is expected to play for the Flames tomorrow. Have fun sorting out the fathers, sons, uncles, nephews and cousins involved in this one. ;o) Resolute 22:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

A second generation indeed, as Brett joins cousin Brandon. -- GoodDay (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I was just thinking about that when I read the news that he was being called up. -Djsasso (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. I've already updated the Uncles-Nephews section for Brandon Sutter. -- GoodDay (talk) 22:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

List of 2008 National Hockey League all-stars

I just came across this page, hadn't a clue that it even existed. Is this really necessary? It's all included in the game's page itself. Thoughts? – Nurmsook! 21:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd merge and redirect to 56th National Hockey League All-Star Game. Resolute 21:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the merge and redirect, that being said it's actually not a bad looking list. blackngold29 23:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Perry Johnson notability

Trying to determine if Perry Johnson is notable enough for an article. If you look at his hockeydb listing, he played in the WHL junior in the 90s, and he played for the Canadian National Team. I'm not sure which team that was. That could be a junior team. Not drafted by the NHL. Anyway, he has played pro for Manchester Storm, Kansas City Blades and Rodovre Mighty Bulls. Are those teams notable enough? He is not listed for this season, so I don't know what is up. He might have retired from hockey already. He is 31. Alaney2k (talk) 16:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

He was on the Memorial Cup-winning Portland team in 1998. Alaney2k (talk) 16:06, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

WP:ATHLETE says a player is notable if they have played professionally, which Manchester, Kansas City and Rodovre are. As long as there are reliable sources to fill out the article with, I'd say he's notable. Resolute 16:56, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I know that players as notable as Glenn Anderson played for the Canadian National Team. It seems like an on-again/off-again thing where it has (maybe still does) operated for a full season of play, changing rosters for various tournaments. I was wondering if being a listed member of the Canadian team is enough to be notable, for their seasons of play. They seem to have played full seasons according to hockeydb. Probably not the highest level of amateur play for most of those games, although soccer friendlies do count toward country rankings. I ask because I'm unfamiliar with its operation. Not to open a can of worms, just wondering. Alaney2k (talk) 17:06, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

1999-00 or 1999-2000?

Which one? I've seen both used a lot. RandySavageFTW (talk) 16:53, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I prefer 1999-00 myself. The common argument for using 1999-2000 is that 1999-00 translates to "1999-1900". It is a completely ridiculous argument in my view, but it is what I've been told when battling others over this. Resolute 16:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that 1999-2000 is a more appropriate convention for an encyclopedia. We are noting a century change, and in the case of 2000, a millenium change happening during the season. I'd rather introduce 2000 at that point instead of 2000-01. That's why I use it. The XX-XX is kind of a short-hand, and I think in the case of the century change, it's a good time to be more encyclopedic. When you are talking about time periods, we should always use both full years too, I think. Alaney2k (talk) 17:20, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I prefer 1999-00, too. It's obviously 2000, no one will be confused. Plus most hockey cards use 1999-00. RandySavageFTW (talk) 17:46, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Hockey-reference.com

Should this website be used for all NHL player pages, similar to how Baseball-reference.com is used for all MLB players? I think that it would be very efficient. Ksy92003 (talk) 17:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

It is already gaining prominence in some articles. i.e. New York Rangers seasons. For the most part, I find it redundant to hockeydb.com, so I'd think either works well. Resolute 17:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Lists of teams' seasons articles

Considering they're lists, shouldn't it be List of Toronto Maple Leafs seasons instead of Toronto Maple Leafs seasons? RandySavageFTW (talk) 17:48, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Naming standards

Since this new proposal seems to be an attempt to force us into line with other peoples ideas of how to name articles. I thought I should make a note of it here since they failed to let us know the discussion was going on. Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (sportspeople). It is someone who has proposed this before and was shot down before but I think he is now trying to officially propose it. -Djsasso (talk) 18:05, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

What's your point of view of this Djsasso? DoubleBlue (talk) 20:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

• NA-Class Ice Hockey pages
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists