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This news just in

Stormfront have enabled mandatory registration in order to view the forum after a massive traffic overload after Obama was elected. I don't have an account, so I don't know what's going on there, but I think it's very, very bad. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 07:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, any coverage in the media/blogosphere? the skomorokh 20:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't on the news. I don't think it experienced more traffic after Obama's win. If it did I'd think Don Imus would want it. I've seen it after Obama's election. They seem to be arguing he's successful because he's "part white" YVNP (talk) 20:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Straws; clutching at... what a hoot! So the above is entirely unsourced? -- Ļıßζېấשּׂ~ۘ Ώƒ ﻚĢęخ (talk) 04:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, see this:

"One of the most popular white supremacist Web sites got more than 2,000 new members the day after the election, compared with 91 new members on Election Day, according to an AP count. The site, stormfront.org, was temporarily off-line Nov. 5 because of the overwhelming amount of activity it received after Election Day. On Saturday, one Stormfront poster, identified as Dalderian Germanicus, of North Las Vegas, said, 'I want the SOB laid out in a box to see how 'messiahs' come to rest. God has abandoned us, this country is doomed.'"

So though I'm not sure about the registration thing, activity did apparently jump after the election. --V2Blast (talk) 23:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I checked the site and it's open again. If someone wants to add the material from the Yahoo news page that'd be appropriate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

And it's closed again. It's apparently intermittent. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Nice work chaps, I've added it to the History section. Regards, the skomorokh 13:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

'The new Ku Klux Klan'?

Interesting stuff, this. -- Nevard 00:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting stuff indeed, but I have to ask in light of this fatherly advice:

...are machine translations from Repubblica reliable enough for our purposes?! the skomorokh 13:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not. I'm not even going to try and parse that by hand. Could be worth having someone who can read it fluently look over it. -- Nevard 14:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, there's another machine translation here. I'm having a go at finding someone who could provide some decent insight. -- Nevard 11:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

And I've asked an editor fluent in the language to do a translation. "I asked them if Stormfront is not just another new Ku Klux Klan, a Klan of the 21st Century without pointed hoods and Arian symbols. "Yes, it is just like that", was the instant response. Along with Don Black, his son Dereck (age 19) is seated, who is the organizer of the radio (program) on the Internet of Stormfront. From the beginning of our encounter he listened quietely, but now interrupts his father: "You have not never said it, you can not say that". He gestured and tried to stop his father's speaking with his hand: " You know that you can't say it". The father remained immovable: " I never said that an American journalist, but you know that it is true"." Nevard (talk) 06:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite uncomfortable with including this in the article given the current state of play; your translation does not make grammatical sense in English as far as I can make out, and a misplaced conjunction could radically alter the meaning of the passage. From an encyclopaedian point of view, I would love to write that Black envisages Stormfront as the new KKK, but we can't trust this source for such an outrageous claim - what if the media picked it up from Misplaced Pages and it turned out to be a misunderstanding? Egg on our faces. I had a brief look around the Stormfront forums but I couldn't find anything dealing with this report specifically, although this comment casts serious doubt as to the journalistic reliability of the article we have just included. the skomorokh 15:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I didn't ask for perfection- just wanted to check that I wasn't reading the article wrong. I think it is reasonable to believe I am not reading the article wrong, and that Dereck Black was not interrupting his father to stop him expanding on the subject of how Stormfront could not be thought of as the new KKK, and Don Black was not pointing out that he had sometimes failed to explain his pluralist view on life to the American media.

Obviously, we're not going to be mining that source for a 'typical Stormfront quote' in the lede any time soon. Nevard (talk) 15:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

On second thoughts, our translation seems plausible; it sounds like something Black would say and I am reasonably sure we are not mischaracterising anyone. Skomorokh 13:40, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks... I did have my own doubts about it, but it seems fine after a bit of consideration. Nevard (talk) 14:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

"Neo-Nazi" again

This article has been added to the category Category:Neo-Nazi websites. As the only identification of Stormfront as "Neo-Nazi" is Bill O'Reilly, who is not a neutral and reliable source of information, this category does not belong in the article in its current state. Per WP:BURDEN, I'll remove it tomorrow if this state persists. Skomorokh 20:47, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I think we should include the category, based on the arguments on OrangeMarlin's talk page. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

There are many sources that have called the website "neo-nazi". Among others are the Village Voice., The Jewish Journal, and the district government of Dusseldorf. I'm sure there are plenty more. Further, they have a history of posting nazi-related graphics in sysop-controlled pages. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The Register article refers to Stormfront.com, a different website. I'm not familiar with the other two publications; are they reliable sources? For a designation of such weight, it would be much better to have more than a passing mention (see white supremacy discussion and footnote). Appreciate the research, Skomorokh 02:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The Register article is a great example of their incompetence. German sources do, indeed, describe Stormfront.org as a Nazi/Neo-Nazi website that the Dusseldorf government has banned. Nevard (talk) 05:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I wonder what the folks at http://www.stormfront.com/ think about their namesake. That must lead to some confusion. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Nothing any more... Nevard (talk) 14:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

• A SICK Nazi website has unleashed a tirade of hate at Irish Olympic boxing hero Darren Sutherland. The 26-year-old bronze medallist, whose dad is from the Caribbean, has been labelled a "mongrel" and "half-breed" by brainless racists on the Stormfront website.
  • "Darren's targeted by nazis" Danny Conlon. News of the World. London (UK): Aug 24, 2008. pg. 7
    • We're looking for neutral coverage of a controversial topic concerning living people; tabloid sensationalism won't cut it. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
• In recent months Black has toned down the Web site, banning many symbols of Nazism that formerly were common on the site, including swastikas, lightning bolts and the number 88. The letter H is the eighth letter of the alphabet, and among supremacists 88 stands for "Heil, Hitler." He also eliminated the N-word, Potok notes. According to Kreis of Aryan Nations, Black has not explained why he did so, "but he has ticked off a lot of people" in white power circles. Potok says he believes the changes are purely cosmetic. "This is not a change of philosophy on Black's part," Potok said. "This is a public relations move to make the Web site seem less drastic, to try and draw more people in right now during the presidential campaign. His beliefs are still fundamentally neo-Nazi. If you listen to the content, you'll hear it."
  • "LOCAL ORGANIZER, OTHER SUPREMACISTS SAY OBAMA'S RUN BOOSTS THEIR CAUSE" JOHN LANTIGUA. Palm Beach Post. West Palm Beach, Fla.: Jul 27, 2008. pg. A.1
    • The Neo-Nazi identification here seems to be "Potok"'s opinion rather than the reporting of the Palm Beach Post; any reason this Potok individual should be considered an RS? Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
• Mr. Warman continued to scour the Internet for Canadian hatemongers, finding many at a U.S. neo-Nazi site called Stormfront, whose web forum has a Canadian section. "It's almost like moths to a flame," he says. "They can't avoid it."
  • "One man's war on Internet hate; He calls himself more 'Aryan' than the hatemongers he chases, but Ottawa lawyer Richard Warman has become the bete noire of Canada's neo-Nazis, writes Don Butler.;" Don Butler. The Ottawa Citizen. Ottawa, Ont.: Jul 11, 2007. pg. A.1
    • Seems legit but fleeting. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
• Held for bail hearing. Ile Perrot man visited neo-Nazi websites, posted photos with guns...At other websites, Emard posted photos of himself posing with weapons and making a salute used by the Nazis in Germany before and during the Second World War. He is believed to have posted comments at www.stormfront.org more than 300 times since October 2005.
  • "Threats suspect fond of hate sites:; " PAUL CHERRY and MICHELLE LALONDE. The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Oct 7, 2006. pg. A.9
    • Doesn't seem to specifically identify Stormfront as N-N. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
• Text of report by Belgrade-based B-92 TV on 22 February
• A list of Jews living in Serbia has appeared on a US Nazi site, in its forum in Serbian.
• Participants in the forum on the stormfront.org site say only a dead Jew is a good Jew.
  • "List of Jews living in Serbia appears on US Nazi site" BBC Monitoring European. London: Feb 23, 2005. pg. 1
    • Is B-92 reliable? BBC seems legit but fleeting again. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

These are just a few of the sources I've found in Proquest. There are numerous reliable sources that label this a "nazi" or "neo-nazi" site. While we certainly should be cautious in using such a label, it appears well-justified in this case. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I've no doubt that we could rack up an impressive list of RS' that mention Stormfront in passing as "Neo-Nazi"; but that is precisely the sort of superficial analysis that has plagued the attempt at serious, in-depth coverage of this topic. I have not found one that attempted to justify the label or even discuss why it is being used. Ascribing ideologies to internet fora is a dubious notion to begin with – to tar the heterogeneous beliefs and attitudes of all the Stormfront users as Neo-Nazi seems doomed to inaccuracy to begin with, akin to categorising the Misplaced Pages article as "Amateur enecylopaedias". I'd like to try to put a section on Stormfront's reputed white supremacy and Neo-Nazism in the article, but so far we have no serious analysis of the appropriety of attributing these beliefs. By using throwaway adjectives instead of detailed analysis, we run the risk of endorsing mainstream POV rather than NPOV. Skomorokh 12:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

This group and "neo-nazi" appear to fit like hand and glove. Here's an article on their own site calling them so ] here's a report from a left-wing group calling them so ] here's a thread on a high traffic right-wing blog where they're called neo-nazi (redacted link to the freepers because of some spam filter) here's an article from the Canberra Times calling stormfront neo-nazi (via a blog, but the full text of the news article is there ] here's an article where the group defends itself from everybody elses opinion that they're neo-nazis ] and on and on. Also, isn't the founder a former grand kookle/pooh bah/whatever of the KKK? If some sort of weird, twisted radical skepticism (this is not in fact a hand i see before me) can be used to deny labelling this group neo-nazi, might as well do away with the term altogether.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Your first link is a forum post - I don't think anyone is denying that some members of Stormfront are (self-identified) Neo-Nazis; the claim is that the webiste itself is Neo-Nazi. Left-wing groups and right-wing bloggers are not the sort of reliable sources we are looking for. The Canberra Times ref is the sort of fleeting mention discussed above, I think Black is a former member of the KKK but that is not substantiated here nor does it speak directly to the Neo-Nazism of Stormfront, and the last article is a good example of why we ought to be careful here. Radical skepticism is an inadequate description, because there are standards of evidence that are acceptable for the verification of claims; detailed in WP:V. Exceptional claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community require a high level of sourcing. I'd settle for a collection of fleeting mentions (as in the white supremacy footnote), but quality scholarly analysis would be far more preferable. Thanks for weighing in, Skomorokh 16:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Skomorokh, you've gone through and described some of these refs as fleeting, but they're short because I only excerpted a few lines. I think there is sufficient evidence to use this label. Do you know of any evidence to the contrary, to show that anyone connected to Stormfront denies it being a neo-nazi forum? Black himself has been connected with neo-nazi groups, so I doubt he'd deny it. If there's plenty of evidence that it is, and no one saying that it isn't then we don't need to argue at length. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Absence of evidence to the negative is no indication of evidence to the positive; your attitude seems to be one of "well, there's some indication that it is, and no indication it's not, so on balance it's fine to say it is". That simply does not fly for a highly controversial label for a highly marginalized group. I am not contesting the inclusion of the category now that (admittedly flimsy) references have been added, I simply feel that it is not informative to our readers, because all we can say about the issue is "Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi website" rather than provide a paragraph that goes into proper analysis of Stormfront's relation to Neo-Nazism. Without context, "Neo-Nazi website" serves only as a term of abuse rather than an informative appellation. Did any of the reliable sources you've come across go into any detail on the Neo-Nazi claim? Skomorokh 18:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Your argument would only be meaningful if those making the claim were themselves fringe sources. In other words, if only fringe left-wingers considered Stormfront to be a Neo-Nazi website, then it could just be that nobody takes the claim seriously enough to refute it. But that's obviously not the case here - mainstream, respected sources refer to them that way. You are simply choosing to ignore them because you don't like them. --B (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring anything; please assume good faith. I don't think left-wing watchdog groups, Jewish-interest newspapers and tabloids are acceptable neutral reliable sources for the claim that Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi website; I am also concerned at the lack of any detailed analysis or justification in the reliable sources (such as the academic paper and the Ottawa Citizen and Daily Telegraph articles) provided. I don't care if Stormfront is neo-Nazi, neo-cannibal or neo-angelic, I care that the Misplaced Pages article about it is comprehensive, neutral and accurate, and I don't think the cavalier attitude shown in this discussion is a step towards the that goal. Skomorokh 18:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Skomorokh, you seem to be moving the goalpost. Certainly Bill Reilly isn't a reliable source for anything more than his own opinion. But mainstream newspapers, the SPLC, the ADL, etc, can all be regarded as reliable sources for this article. And yes, even passing mentions of the site as being "neo-nazi" are acceptable. There is nothing remarkable about calling this site "neo-nazi" - the founder has a neo-nazi history, they have hosted neo-nazi content and imagery, the members espouse neo-nazi concepts and use nazi-like avatars and usernames, etc. No one disputes that it is a neo-nazi website. We have sources from many countries and three continents. Continuing to argue this point eventually becomes tendentious. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Which goalposts are being moved? While mainstream newspapers are usually reliable (not having an agenda), SPLC/ADL etc. are certainly not neutral and should not be used to support statement of fact. Neither am I objecting to the number of sources, and the list below does little to further the improvement of the article. I have not disupted that the category ought to apply, only that it ought not in the absence of reliable sources (and I have not removed the category since a referenced claim was added). What is acceptable per conventions (as in the white supremacist/first hate site issue) is a convincing collection of non-partisan reliable sources such as scholarly studies and non-partisan newspapers which we can add as reflecting mainstream consensus on this issue. What is more desirable is proper coverage of the issue in such sources to do the topic justice. At present, we now have three abusive labels ("white supremacist", "hate site" and "Neo-Nazi") rejected by the subject(s) of the article which are not investigated or explained in any way. Reading the article it is not at all clear from the facts that Stormfront is primarily hateful, Nazi or supremacist. By namecalling without support we are effectively making the reader's minds up for them. That is a derisory attitude for an encyclopaedia to adopt. I'm trying to build this article into something that will meet WP:FA?, and the vast majority of input from other editors (with notable exceptions) is to war over particular puerile identifications. Skomorokh 20:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

What source do we have for Stormfront "rejecting" the neo-nazi label? If the article doesn't include material on their neo-nazi elements then we need to improve the article. If it passed GA without that information then it may be time for a review, because it would be incomplete. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Bali ultimate pointed it out above:. I'm not suggesting that this is a reliable source by WP standards, but it does indicate the problems with using fleeting identifications. I strongly agree that the article needs more content on Stormfront's Neo-Nazism, though I don't think the absence of such is enough to merit a GAR as I've yet to be convinced by the sources that it's a major aspect of the topic. Skomorokh 20:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

We have 18 sources that directly call this a neo nazi website, yet you don't think that's a major aspect of the topic? You reject numerous reliable sources because an admittedly unreliable source makes a passing, unattributed assertion that users reject the label? Let me quote you from July: "yup, one person writes a book is good enough unless someone else writes something contradicting them". We don't have a single proper source for anyone actually connected to the site rejecting the label. I see you've removed the category at least five times. Given the ample sourcing, I expect that it won't be removed again. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting my position completely. In each instance of removing that category it was explicitly for the reason that it was not supported by reliable sources in the article. I consider The Guardian, The Ottawa Citizen, The Daily Telegraph and the Zhou et al article sufficient support for the inclusion of the Neo-Nazi attribution according to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, just as I considered the book you mention acceptable for the claim it supports (though note that that claim was not a value-free labelling, and that the book in question is a far more credible source than random newspaper articles). I also consider adding labels liberally without explanation or justification poor scholarship—specifically when the subject rejects the label (cf. "white supremacist")—and Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines deficient in this respect. Large numbers of sources referring to Stormfront as Neo-Nazi no more makes Neo-Nazism a major aspect of the topic than large numbers of sources referring to Mother Teresa as female mean that identification is worthy of major discussion in the article. Frankly, I am quite tired of defending this article against every passing editor with a personal axe to grind, and spending most of this talkpage discussing pov-wording rather than the improvement of the article. Skomorokh 21:17, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

This article will require "defending" as long as it's here. That's been the case from the beginning. Some years back the crew at Stormfront tried to organize to "correct the errors" in Misplaced Pages, which led Jimbo Wales to say that we'd change whatever rules were necessary to keep them from taking over. So there's a long history here. Anyway, is this matter settled now or is there still any dispute over this categorization? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

No, there hasn't been a dispute over the categorisation since the referenced claim was initially added. I'd like to replace some of the sources cited with those I mentioned above, but what with the threat of permanent banning and all I'll refrain for now. If you have come across discussion of the Neo-Nazism in one of the definitely reliable sources, it would be great to include it. If you have the time and inclination, input would be appreciated in the sections below this one. Thanks for your patience, Skomorokh 22:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad that's settled. I still don't understand how this article got to GA status while excluding such a prominent part of the subject's notability. Omitting it meant that the article failed item #3a on the Good Article criteria. Perhaps the sources should be doubled-checked to make sure that all significant points of view are included, as required by WP:NPOV. I'll check back in a month to see if we've been able to satisfy that item. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Peanut4 (talk · contribs) was the reviewer; you may want to take it up with them. All the content I added was taken with minimal alteration/interpretation from the references—in most cases it was a case of trying to pick morsels of mentions of Stormfront out of articles on broader topics rather than picking and choosing which perspectives to take from each source. I obviously have not come across much discussing Neo-Nazism, and there do not seem to be any other editors heavily active in editing the article at present, so I'm not sure whether waiting a month will achieve anything. If you're convinced 3a is an issue, then I would say the best thing to do would be to put it up for WP:GAR now. It might be worth bearing in mind this related discussion regarding what ought to be covered vs. what can. Regards, Skomorokh 23:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

If the editors who prepared this for GA didn't come across the eighteen sources isted below, and thus didn't find much discussion of the neo-nazi characterizations of the subject, then there seems to be a failure to do proper research. I'm not in a hurry to do a GA review, and it'd be better to address the identified problem and thus avoid it entirely. Let's see how it looks in a month. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Well Will, it seems as if you're the only one here with access to the below sources, so I'm not sure what help I can be. If there's something freely accessible online you think ought to be included, drop me a link and I'll try to integrate it. Skomorokh 00:20, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The books are all available on Google books. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

. Medicine Bags and Dog Tags doesn't contain anything I'd include here; no previews of Citizen Cyborg or White Reign are available; the mentions in Space of Hate, Mel Gibson's Passion and Bad Moon Rising are the epitome of fleeting; Interactive Technologies and the Social Studies calls Stormfront "pro-white, Nazi-oriented", and Friends calls it "white racist, lunatic fringe pro-Nazi Internet … website movement" - neither with any analysis whatseover; War and the Media contains an interesting discussion on pages 181-187, but surprise surprise nothing on Neo-Nazism. Colour me extremely unimpressed—how on earth are we supposed to treat this as a major aspect of the topic when none of the sources thus far do? Skomorokh 00:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

• be-yamenu, Universiṭat Tel-Aviv Proyeḳṭ le-ḥeḳer ha-anṭishemiyut, Universiṭat Tel-Aviv Faḳulṭah le-madaʻe ha-ruaḥ, B'nai B'rith, B'nai B'rith Anti-defamation League, Universiṭat Tel-Aviv, Makhon le-ḥeḳer ha-anṭishemiyut ṿeha-gazʻanut ʻa. sh. Sṭefan Roṭ, Wiener Library, and World Jewish Congress. Anti-semitism Worldwide. ress.
• Brean, Joseph. 2008. RCMP will not pursue charges in CHRC case; Human rights body accused of hacking into Web account. National Post, November 21.
• Butler, Don. 2007. Ottawa lawyer vs. Calgary 'Nazi'; The Canadian Human Right Tribunal has handed Richard Warman his 10th victory in his tireless crusade to put a stop to the spread of hate over the Internet, Don Butler writes. The Ottawa Citizen, October 27.
• Carroll, Al. 2008. Medicine Bags and Dog Tags.
• CLARKE, JIM, and DARREN BOYLE. 2008. IRELAND 'S ROLL OF SHAME IN BILE.COM. Sunday Mirror, September 14.
• DIANE Publishing Company. 1996. False Patriots.
• Flint, Colin. 2004. Spaces of Hate.
• Garber, Zev. 2006. Mel Gibson's Passion.
• Gorenfeld, John, and Barry W. Lynn. 2008. Bad Moon Rising.
• Hughes, James H. 2004. Citizen Cyborg.
• Kincheloe, Joe L. 2000. White Reign.
• LuisaTucker, Maria. 2007. A NEO-NAZI FIELD TRIP TO THE MET. The Village Voice 52, no. 24 (June 13): 23.
• Martorella, Peter H. 1997. Interactive Technologies and the Social Studies.
• McLachlin PalmBeachPostStaffWriter, Mary. 1998a. INTERNET SURFERS HIJACKED TO WEST PALM HATE SITE. Palm Beach Post, December 21.
• ---. 1998b. INTERNET SURFERS HIJACKED TO WEST PALM HATE SITE. Palm Beach Post, December 21.
• Millar, Stuart. 2000. Leeds don to attack Lawrence findings. The Guardian, March 2.
• MIMS THESALTLAKETRIBUNE, BOB. 1998. More than 200 Internet sites qualify as `hard-core racist'. The Salt Lake Tribune, October 18.
• O'Hara, Michael. 2006. Friends.
• RADLER, MELISSA. 2004. Hate sites flood Internet - report. Jerusalem Post, April 20.
• Thussu, Daya Kishan, and Des Freedman. 2003. War and the Media.

Here is a list of eighteen newspapers and books that refer to Stormfront as a nazi or neo-nazi site. The burden of evidence has been met. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

• A relevant ANI discussion is here. Verbal chat

Skomorokh, the reason you are unable to find any reliable sources going into a detailed, scholarly analysis of whether Stormfront is a neo-Nazi website is precisely the same reason that neither you, I, nor anyone else can find a reliable source on the subject of motor racing going into a detailed analysis of whether Mario Andretti knows how to drive a stick shift. When you ask every other editor here to assume good faith, what you're really asking for is a suspension of judgment. You're clearly employing a rhetorical technique that I call pretending to be stupider than you actually are. Everyone here, including you, is bright enough to realize that Stormfront is a neo-Nazi website, as are the multiple, reliable sources who can recognize a garden implement when they see it without wasting their resources on an idiotic, useless, detailed scholarly analysis. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

support continued description as neo-nazi

• support as nom (and to wrap this up). Like skok says above, there is an abundance of reliable sources that describe this group as neo-nazi. On top of that, they fit the description to a tee, engage in activities and speech typical of neo-nazis etc...
  • This is a talkpage, not an election booth ;) I think we are quite aways from "an abundance of reliable sources that describe this group as neo-nazi", and the notion that "they fit the description to a tee, engage in activities and speech typical of neo-nazis etc..." is personal opinion, but I would agree that it is likely that an acceptably referenced attribution of the label will be forthcoming soon. Regards, Skomorokh 16:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

] ]] I spent 3 minutes on these latest cites.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you really think Jewish Defence and the ADL are neutral sources here? Skomorokh 17:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

A better question - does ANYONE on planet Earth (other than white supremacists, neo-Nazis, whatever) NOT consider the website to be a neo-Nazi site? --B (talk) 17:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I can not find a single source saying they're not neo-nazi. I can find multiple reliable sources calling them neo-nazi. Furthermore, their founder is a neo-nazi, they have/do carry neo-nazi screeds, symbols, manifestos. They consort with neo-nazis. Many of their contributors self-identify as neo-nazi... scholars call them neo-nazis (as per the scholarly link that you removed from the article). etc... I suggest you desist from this course.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course we cannot prove a negative, the burden of proof is on the "Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi website" claim and not on the contrary, per WP:NPOV. I don't think B removed any scholarly links to the article. What course are you suggesting they desist from? Skomorokh

He is obviously referring to you, not to me. The burden of proof that Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi site has overwhelmingly been met. --B (talk) 18:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I am new to this discussion and got here via conversations left at a couple of editors talk pages. Anyways, I've taken the time to read through everything and without any doubt in my mind Stormfront is a Neo-Nazi website. So if this is a strawpoll count me in as supporting that this article state it as such. I'm sorry but how anyone can say it's not is surprising since I looked at the refs provided. I have to say I'm surprised that this is even being discussed. --CrohnieGal 20:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support continued description as neo-Nazi due to the overwhelming abundance of reliable sources.

A: You can't prove a negative.

B: Really? I am not a giraffe, and I can prove it.

--Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support per WP:V. Jayjg 01:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
• Support. To avoid original research, we have to describe it as the sources do. Tom Harrison 14:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
• Support Is this not a perfect example of a WP:DUCK. Sources are there, if only Skomorokh, who's whitewashing of this article is getting tendentious, would quit removing them. OrangeMarlin 17:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I have not removed any reliable sources from the article which supported the claim of Neo-Nazism, nor do I understand the purpose of this section when no-one is arguing to the contrary. Please substantiate your claim of "whitewashing", because to my eyes the article contains far more negative coverage of Stormfront now than it did a year ago before I started expanding it. Skomorokh 19:07, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Google Books URLs

On a minor note, is it a good idea to include Google Books links in the url fields of the citation templates? My understanding was that we only added URLs when a full version of the text was available. Not sure of the usability value or the copyright implications. Skomorokh 13:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Screenshot

Can someone who knows how these things are done capture a screenshot of the site for infobox purposes? Something like File:4chan front page.png would be great. Skomorokh 15:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Removed per POV

I removed this because it is very POV. I am still reading things here but it's being heavily edited by User:Skomorokh which is making it difficult to do. Personally I think s/he should slow down a little and at least bring some of these changes to the talk page for discussion since s/he seems to think the article should be one way and most others disagree, but of course that is just my opinion. Please feel free to revert me if you disagree. --CrohnieGal 21:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the Washington Post is insufficiently neutral? The wording I added is almost exactly that of the source, and gives the reader context on why the Stormfront members were concerned with Obama's candicacy. Could you please explain your concern? Skomorokh 21:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Eli Saslow of WaPo: "Posters on Stormfront complain that Obama represents the end of "white rule" and the beginning of "multiculturalism." They fear that he will promote affirmative action, support illegal immigration and help render whites, who make up two-thirds of the U.S. population, "the new minority."" The text I added: " … feared that Obama would promote affirmative action, support illegal immigration and help render white people a minority in the United States." I'm afraid I don't see where the POV is supposed to have crept in. Skomorokh 21:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems like cherry picking to me, sorry. --CrohnieGal 21:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

How do you propose we put the claim that Stormfront members were concerned with Obama's candidacy in context? Why is listing the reasons for their concern not the best way of doing this? Skomorokh 21:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Skomorokh, I think it's more likely that Crohnie thinks that not the Wahington Post, but you, are insufficiently neutral and cannot be relied upon to fairly characterize the contents of the article. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure the editor can speak for herself. I won't deign to respond to your contemptible comments on my editorial integrity. Skomorokh 00:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok on this one I will back off and state I am wrong. I apparently missed this or didn't digest it propery when I read it since I was reading a lot of different refs trying to catch up with things here. I would also point out that there are other comments made in this article that has this site using the Obama election win for other reasons to push their agenda other than the ones you are stating which is one of the reasons I felt that what you put in was POV and cherry picking. Here is what they said in one section; "One person put it this way: Obama for president paves the way for David Duke as president," said Duke, who ran for president in 1988, received less than 1 percent of the vote and has since spent much of his time in Europe. "This is finally going to make whites begin to realize it's a necessity to stick up for their own heritage, and that's going to make them turn to people like me. We're the next logical step." " Also I would like to point out this quote "The groups also despise Republican Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) for his moderate views on immigration and his willingness to stick with the Iraq war. Better for Obama to win, leaders said, because his presidency could fuel a recruitment drive big enough to launch events that the white power movement has spent decades anticipating." (Bolding and italics mine)

Now the bolding is, at least to me as important or more important to them then just the comments you selected, which I might add could be incorporated in what you want to put into the article. Anyways, I hope this explains better what I find in the article to be important comments by this group compared to what you chose. By no means are mine more important than yours, I am just trying to show that the article shows more than the selection you chose to present. I hope I am clear in what I am stating. If you look at my user page you will see that my medical causes me some problems here that I try to over come as best as I can but it still gets in my way unfortunately, sorry if this is a problem to anyone. Thanks again for listening. --CrohnieGal 12:09, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the bolded comments you have selected is that the journalist does not present them as representative of Stormfront. The first is a quote from David Duke, who if he is a Stormfront member is only one of tens of thousands, and we have no way of knowing (per WP:V) the extent to which his views are shared by Stormfront at large. Similarly, the second bolded comment is attributed by the journalist to "Neo-Nazi and white power groups", of which Stormfront is presumably only one component. This gives us the reverse problem that the Duke quote does – we cannot know the extent to which the aggregate concerns of all the groups follow those of Stormfront members; is Stromfront more or less radical/afraid/prejudicial than "Neo-Nazi and white power groups"? No way of knowing without engaging in WP:OR. The selection I chose to excerpt (my method is simply to search for the word "Stormfront" and take information from the sentences in which the word appears):

Posters on Stormfront complain that Obama represents the end of "white rule" and the beginning of "multiculturalism." They fear that he will promote affirmative action, support illegal immigration and help render whites, who make up two-thirds of the U.S. population, "the new minority."

There is no ambiguity here, no potential for misrepresentation; this is what our reliable source definitively says of "Posters on Stormfront" entire – not one poster, not all American Neo-Nazi and white power groups, but Stormfront posters. I'm still not clear on which POV I am supposed to be pursuing. Skomorokh 12:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The box on the top

I just notice this . I don't remember having an editor listed like this in the box at the top unless they are involved in the article like a COI type of situation. But would someone explain to me why the box says that this editor knows the article well enough to be the one to ask questions to? Usually I see these types of questions asked on the talk page so that any editor may speak up, not having one editor listed. It looks like WP:OWN with it written like this. Thanks in advance for any replies. --CrohnieGal 21:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you read the documentation of {{Maintained}} and its talkpage. The template means that the editors listed are actively monitoring the article and are familiar with the sources used, thus being good people to ask questions of i.e. "are we sure that Stormfront began in 1995 and not 1991?". It does not grant the editors any authority, nor do you need their permission to alter the article in any way. Hope this helps, Skomorokh 21:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you read the documentation of {{Maintained}} and its talkpage, particularly this part:

• DO NOT place this template on the talk pages of controversial articles that are easily subject to POV wars.

Template removed per this very clear guidance. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The article had been placid until quite recently (see talkpage activity from August to December), but no objection to removal of the template if you feel it is sufficiently controversial at present. Skomorokh 14:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

September 11th Jewish involvement issue

The War and the Media source listed above contains the fact that there was "much reference on Stormfront to a story, originally published in the Arab press that Jews had been warned not to show up at their World Trade Center offices on the day of the attacks" (see 9/11_conspiracy_theories#Jewish_involvement). The source claims that this "was used as evidence to buttress the arguments … that Mossad was behind the attacks" (see 9/11_advance-knowledge_debate#Israel). This is interesting, and seems like something that would be a hot button issue for Stormfront, but I'm not sure it's substantive enough to merit inclusion, nor is it clear where it would fit in. Thoughts? Skomorokh 14:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

See WP:FRINGE. OrangeMarlin 17:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree with marlin. Only purpose would be to bolster the fact that this group is anti-semitic and conspiracy minded; there are better examples for both.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:51, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

What are the better examples? The article does not go into any depth on the anti-semitism or conspiracy issues in the article; which sources are you alluding to? Skomorokh 19:05, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Alteration to summary by User:Bali ultimate

This edit by User:Bali ultimate strikes me as inaccurate in all three of its claims. Nowhere in the article as far as I can see is Stomrfront criticized for a "white supremacist agenda" - the only mentions of white supremacism are simple identifiers (as in "The website is notable for the white supremacist views of its members"), the focus of a documentary ("...the perceived threat of white nationalist and white supremacist organisations on the Internet"), one of the criteria the French and German governments use to censor websites (not attributed to Stormfront) and Don Black's goals ("a long-time advocate of increasing the mainstream appeal of the white supremacist movement"). Nowhere in the body of the article is the purported white supremacism of Stormfront criticised. Nor is it referenced that the site has a white supremacist agenda – only that its members have white supremacist views.

Neither is Stormfront criticised for "holocaust denial" in the article. The only mention of the Holocaust is that French and German legislation exists forbidding "to websites which host white supremacist, Holocaust-denying, historical revisionist or similar material", and that Stormfront was removed from Google's indexes to comply with the legislation. It is illogical to conclude that the claim that Stormfront denies the Holocaust, and completely far fetched that there exists criticism of this in the text.

Thirdly, the revised text claims that Stormfront is criticised for "urging members to prepare for a race war." This, again, is a warped summary of the article, which only claims that there existed a discussion among some members of Stormfront "in which white nationalists were encouraged to join the U.S. Military in order to learn the skills necessary for winning a race war". Not only is the claim that Stormfront urged its members to prepare for a race war plainly unsupported by the text, there is no mention of criticism.

In sum, this edit is a non-neutral distortion of the facts in the article. While the lede does need extensive revising to keep track with changes in the article, twisting the sources to imply criticism that is not present is an irresponsible and reprehensible way to do it. What do other editors think? Skomorokh 19:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

What nonesense. I'm adding detail in body of the article to reflect this. What i removed was passive language of no real utility to a reader to get to why this group has been covered in the media, etc... Again, will be adding more on the activity of this org and commentary in a bit to address your other concerns that there is insufficient on this in the body of the article.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

What of what I wrote is nonsense exactly? Where is the criticism in the article of Stromfront's purported white supremacism, Holocaust denial and incitement to race war? Do you really think it is good practice to put in place your preferred version of the lead without bothering to substantiate it with reliable sources? Skomorokh 19:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Why doesn't this article contain any information about the subject's characterization as a website that promotes white supremacist, race war, and holocaust denial? Have the sources really been properly summarized and does the article really cover its topic without that material? Rather than fighting over the intro, I suggest editors work on fixing the body of the text so that it better represents the available sources. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, if there is such coverage out there, I'd be more than happy to include it, just point the way. It is however an untenable policy to have the lede summarise an imaginary idealised article rather than what we have to work with now. Skomorokh 21:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Footnote "a" lists 15 sources for "white supremacism". That might be a good place to start looking. The sources are here, they just need to be summarized properly. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see; I'll have a look at those later, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out like your Google Books sources above. Skomorokh 21:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Right, I've had a look through the refs available online from the white supremacy footnote. This and this may have material to expand with, though nothing to confirm Bali ultimate's claims nor your suspicions. It would be a great help if you would identify what specifically you think is not being summarized properly. 22:05, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that you are unable to find any sources that discuss Stormfront's "purported white supremacism, Holocaust denial and incitement to race war"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:26, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

No, I am saying that I looked at the sources in footnote which you suggested that were accessible online and found no discussion of the topics mentioned (by "discussion" I mean analysis of the concepts/phenomena, not just using the terms "white supremacy"/"white supremacism"/"white supremacist" etc.). Did I miss something in those sources? Skomorokh 22:34, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Where did you get this standard that sources must contain an analysis of a concept or phenomenon in order to be used? I don't recall seeing that in any WP policies or guidelines. If a source refers to "the white supremacist website Stormfront", or says "Stormfront users post messages denying the holocaust", then those are sufficient sources for characterizing the subject. As for this matter, the article does say that Google dropped links to the site from Germany in order to comply with German law forbidding linking to Holocaust denying websites. Is that in dispute? If not then why is there a problem mentioning it in the intro? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

"Where did you get this standard that sources must contain an analysis of a concept or phenomenon in order to be used?" I did not; what are you talking about? It's not in dispute that sources identify Stormfront as white supremacist sufficient for the requirements of policy. What is still lacking verification is Bali ultimate's three claims outlined above (though this is not really an issue as Bali has already removed them from the article). I have no objection to noting that Google de-indexed Stormfront – I put that in the lede myself for goodness sake! You maintain that the article is missing content from the sources cited; I am simply asking you to identify which specific content in which sources, so that I may add it and alleviate your concerns. Skomorokh 23:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Racial/racialist and NPOV

Editors have twice replaced the word "racialist" with "racist" in the lead section of the article. The lead section is supposed to be a summary of the article, and the line summarized here reads

Stormfront is comprehensive and frequently updated, hosting files from and links to a number of racialist organizations, an online dating service (for "heterosexual White Gentiles only"), and electronic mailing lists that allow the white nationalist community to discuss issues of interest.

The "racialist organisations" segment is excerpted from the Kaplan ref, the relevant section of which (p.24), reads:

Stormfront offers files from a number of racialist groups, hypertext links to a number of others, and several e-mail discussion and news lists that allow the White nationalist community to discuss issues of interest

The wording is clear: the organizations are racialist rather than racist, and those terms have distinct meanings. This appears to be yet another instance of distorting the sources to support a particular POV rather than building a neutral and accurate article. Skomorokh 20:07, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Whitewashing POV. OrangeMarlin 20:09, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Could you elaborate please? Are you contesting the fact that the source uses the term "racialist" rather than "racist", or that Misplaced Pages should use the terms the source uses rather than those personally favoured by editors? Skomorokh 20:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I find this ridiculous, I'm sorry but the article shows that this organization is a racist organization period. I would also like to state with watching todays activities I am taking this article off my watchlist. The reason is I find it very agrevating to see one editor jump in on every other editor's edit sometimes within seconds of them making an edit. I find the edit summaries rude and WP:OWN is at play. So I will be leaving here now. I do not edit in an environment like this where an editor leaves messages at other editors talk page or calls out an editor every time someone edits. Good luck, the article is yours as far as I am concerned. Sorry if this sounds strongly worded but I think enough has been said about this but yet it continues. Happy editing, --CrohnieGal 20:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I am quite tired of the bad faith accusations being thrown about here. I have initiated discussion on the contentious areas in order to work out issues and reach consensus; I am perfectly happy to collaborate with other editors, and believe that the back-and-forth editing between myself and Bali ultimate have improved this article. At no time have I demanded that editors consult me before making changes; I've reverted an edit once when I was not sure the editor was aware of the ramifications of their edits, and a second time on the category issue after fruitlessly asking the editor in question to support the addition of the content with reliable sources. Your only action was to remove neutral, reliably sourced and relevant content, then admitting you were wrong but not restoring it. I've reported this page to the NPOV noticeboard. Skomorokh 20:34, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I also said in the edit summary to feel free to revert. If you look you were busy editing and edit conflicts continued. I admitted I was wrong but also pointed out the the article spoke about more things which you shot down. What I was saying is that you picked that specific item because you said it had to do with the site saying it and the other ones I mentioned wasn't from the site, fine. A newspaper article says all kinds of things, I personally think you are giving too much weight to items you think are important. As for bad faith assumptions, it's hard not to think you feel you own this article when you are adjusting edits as soon as they are made, hiding them because the editor didn't get the source in fast enough and questioning every editor who make a comment. No I haven't done anything, I need to read up on what's there first and this take me time because I am slow as an editor. I have to be able to read and sometimes reread the refs so I get it in my head. Sorry if that bothers you but being disabled causes me some problems towards being a quick and good editor. Now like I said, you won't have to worry about me, add your item back into the article that I deleted and please just leave me out of this, thanks. --CrohnieGal 20:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I apologize, I didn't see your "feel free to revert" comment. I'm wary of restoring my preferred version as I don't think we are agreed on what should be included yet and there is no hurry. Regards, Skomorokh 21:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Further instances

These edits are further choice rewordings from ("racialists" to "racists") in contravention of the Kaplan ref, the cited section of which reads

Stormfront put Don Black in the spotlight, both for racialists throughout the world and for a number of watchdog groups—most notably the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Anti-Defamation League.

Skomorokh 20:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you WP:OWN this article. Good job. A non-racist like me understands that "racialist" is a code word for a fucking racist. Give me a break. OrangeMarlin 20:23, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Racialist is just an older term for racist. There's really no question that it's a racist website.

• Lantigua, John (July 27, 2008 Sunday). "Local organizer, other supremacists say Obama's run boosts their cause". Palm Beach Post. Florida: The Palm Beach Newspapers, Inc. p. 1A. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)

• Sweeney, Ken (August 3, 2008). "Mixed-race Rose contestant snubs racist websites". Sunday Tribune. Ireland: The Sunday Tribune plc. p. N03. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)

• Ryan, Nick (August 12, 2004). "Life: Online: Fear and loathing: Websites expressing extreme or racist views have increased dramatically this year. Nick Ryan on plans to crack down on haters". The Guardian. London: Guardian Newspapers Limited. p. 23. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)

Tom Harrison 20:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Tom. We are not talking about the website itself here but third parties, as you will see if you read the sections quoted. If it is true that "racialist" and "racist" are always used synonymously, then it seems unimportant which is used, but I do not believe that this is the case (our own article on racialist does not indicate support for the claim, for example). Skomorokh 20:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You can assume I've read before commenting. Tom Harrison 20:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

What distinctions are you trying to make between "racist" and "racialist" in this case? Also, what distinctions are you trying to make between "the website itself" and "third parties"? Most of the content of the website is its bulletin boards, which are filled with comments by "third parties". Jayjg 20:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Jay, see the quotes from the source above and my comment below; this is not about Stormfront itself. I'm not trying to make a distinction; English is not my first language - I am simply unconvinced that the source is necessarily using the terms synonymously, which seems to be an interpretive leap to me. Skomorokh 20:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

See the source below. "Racialist" is simply an older, superseded term for "racist". Now, what distinction were you trying to make between "the website itself" and "third parties"? Jayjg 21:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The dictionary says "largely superseded"; the two dictionary entries come which come up in the first page of results in a Google search for "racialist" indicate a distinction ( and vs. ). "Racist" clearly has a more negative connotation, and I do not understand we we would want to replace the term used in the source with one with such negative connotations; it does not seem to be in the spirit of NPOV. As to the website vs. third parties question, if you look at the series of edits, you'll see the terms are not being applied to Stormfront itself, but rather third party groups, organisations and individuals (rendering Tom's sources above orthogonal). Hope this helps. Skomorokh 21:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Maybe the paragraph is unclear out of context, but it is specifically calling the organisations Stormfront links to and those for whom Stormfront put Don Black in the spotlight, rather than Stormfront itself, racialist. I assumed by "the website" you were referring to Stromfront, which perhaps is were the confusion arose. I don't have access to the OED definition; would you mind telling us what it says? Thanks, Skomorokh 20:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting tired of your whitewashing. When are you going to admit that you're either a Stormfront supporter, or in fact a part of the organization? OrangeMarlin 21:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Orangemarlin, there's no point in discussing individuals. Simply deal with the edits, and we should have no trouble keeping this article factual and in compliance with WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV. Jayjg 21:09, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

*support use of "racist" in place of "racialist" a word that is used in this context by racists to obscure their true intents. Also, it's the term used by a preponderance of reliable sources that address this org.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Bali, neither "racist" or "racialist" are used in the article to refer to Stormfront, but to third parties. Are you suggesting Jeffrey Kaplan (the source of the term) uses "racialist" rather than "racist" to obscure his true intent? Skomorokh 21:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Let me repeat a PREPONDERANCE of sources calls this group racist: NYT, WP, Salon, ADL, NAACP, the Weistenthal people, scholars of racist hate groups like Brian Levin, CNN, the LA Times, etc... That's why they should be called racists. It's what they are, and it's how most every reliable source describes.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Call which group racist? Do you appreciate that we are not talking about Stormfront here? Skomorokh 21:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You keep saying what "we" are talking about. I'm not sure you're in the best position to make that determination. Tom Harrison 21:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to clarify: these three edits did not change the description of Stormfront. The article does not describe Stormfront as racist or racialist, nor has it in recent memory. Skomorokh 21:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

<--Okay, maybe I've misunderstood. From the article as it is now, what changes would you like to see? Tom Harrison 21:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I would like the three edits reverted so that the groups and individuals are described as the source describes them - "racialist". The arguments for changing to racist seem to be to boil down to racist=racialist anyway and/or using racialist instead of racist is "POV whitewashing". If the terms are synonymous, then the latter argument would seem not to apply. If the latter argument does apply and the former does not, either the source cited is guilty of POV whitewashing, or Misplaced Pages should not follow reliable sources in its prose, neither of which are positions that seem particularly plausible to me. I don't see why we ought not to use the verified terminology; we have no way of knowing whether the unnamed groups and individuals in question are racists. Regards, Skomorokh 21:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I've added sources that describe them by the more common synonym, "racist". There are many more, but these should suffice to deal with your concerns. Jayjg 21:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Your sources seem to apply to Stormfront—again, no-one is disputing that Stormfront is considered a racist site. It's the third parties referred to here that are in question. Thanks very much for the addition nevertheless (though they need to go in the body of the article rather than the summary). Regards, Skomorokh 22:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

References

1. Zhou, Y (2008). "U.S. Domestic Extremist Groups on the Web: Link and Content Analysis" (PDF). University of Arizona. Retrieved 2008-12-27. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
2. "racialist". Oxford English Dictionary (Online ed.). Oxford University Press. (Subscription or participating institution membership required.) - "An earlier term than RACIST adj., but now largely superseded by it."

Footnotes and references

These might be easier to follow and more useful to the reader if they were consolidated into one section of references. Thoughts? Tom Harrison 22:39, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

(great minds etc.) I think the "sources that consider" references should be treated with consistently for the "hate site" "white supremacy" and "Neo-Nazi" instances. Either we integrate them all into the References section or put them all in Footnotes as before, but the current set-up does not make sense. I prefer to leave editorial comment out of the References section, but if consensus is for it I won't object. Skomorokh 22:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I think this version is clearest and most useful, as it unambiguously distinguishes between direct citations and mass references with commentary. Footnotes and references are categorically different imo. Skomorokh 22:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

I, once again, respectfully request that Skomorokh divulge his relationship to either Neo-Nazi's in general or Stormfront specifically. Otherwise, I'm going to place a COI tag on every one of his edits. OrangeMarlin 23:50, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

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