Revision as of 15:12, 12 February 2009

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcut WP:WQA Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
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User:Headbomb

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

How should I respond to this personal attack? His tactics involve ... general dishonesty, blatant lying, and general Wikilawyering , etc... He should be flat out banned from the wiki. Thunderbird2 (talk) 17:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Reading through things. They do seem rather hostile. Going to quote one bit:

• Strong oppose. You cannot change Misplaced Pages policy by ignoring it. I don't have time now, but I will respond in more detail after about 10 days. Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• Ten whole days to edit in peace and not be incessantly badgered over a dead issue? Thank you so  much! When you come back, please lodge all future complaints at this e-mail address. Greg L (talk) 03:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

That seems rather uncivilized. Dream Focus (talk) 17:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Just a reminder to notify the user you are complaining about that you filed this report. I already left a message on their talk page but in the future, please leave a note when you file a report. Thanks. The Seeker 4 Talk 17:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• Your response should be to stop forumshopping, as well as to stop your general dishonesty, quote mining, blatant lying, representation bias, and to drop the issue. Relevant links can be found in Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Thunderbird2 for those who wants them. You've become a single-purpose account who spent his last YEAR crying like a baby because you didn't get your way. THAT is why you should be banned. This is a personal attack to the extent that saying User:Sarenne was disruptive. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 18:23, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

There are better ways to deal with disruptive editors, responding by throwing around accusations and hyperbole is far from ideal regardless of the behaviour of the target. Let the admins deal with the editor and try not to get dragged down with them. --neon white talk 20:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with neon white; it is desirable you try to keep your cool and stay as civil as as possible, even when dealing with problem editors. If their editing is continuing to be a problem, then it should be taken to an admin noticeboard so that the community can decide if sanctions should be imposed yet. If you get dragged in and your own behaviour starts spiralling out of control as a result of another editor's, then the net loss is for the project. In this case, it is not a personal attack, but it is not the sort of commentary that one hopes to see either. Keep your cool. ;) Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:24, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• To Dream Focus: Thank you for mentioning Greg_L's behaviour. I have raised that here before and was advised by Jaysweet to await mediation. When mediation was offered, Greg_L turned it down.
• To the others: To make an accusation of dishonesty and lying without a shred of evidence is a personal attack ("Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence").

Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:11, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

• To whome it may concern: What Headbomb and Greg have written cannot be considered a personal attack because what Headbomb and Greg have written are pure plain facts about Thunderbird2's poor behaviour. All the evidence of Thunderbird2's poor behaviour can be found at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Thunderbird2. That page contains all the evidence of Thunderbird2 repeatedly being dishonest, lying, forum shopping, using bad faith edits, and violating policies and guidelines. So since all the evidence is at that page then obviously Thunderbird2 is again misrepresenting the situation (deliberately lying, again) when he wrote "without a shred of evidence". Also Thunderbird2 again misrepresents the situation regarding mediation because mediation was rejected since it became obvious that Thunderbird2 previously forum shopped the same issue and was wasting the valuable time of the mediator, this is demonstrated in the RfC/U. Since it is now obvious Thunderbird2 has not modified his behaviour, as has been demonstrated by this latest attempt to forum shop here, then as reflected by the consensus shown in the RfC/U please ban Thunderbird2 to stop the user from continuously disrupting Misplaced Pages in the future. Fnagaton 23:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
  • How should I respond to this personal attack by Fnagaton? Thunderbird2 (talk) 15:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
    • It is not a "personal attack" to completely refute your false claims with the evidence and conclusions of the RfC/U regarding your bad behaviour. The fact that you have again misrepresented the situation by incorrectly trying to claim it is a personal attack goes to further demonstrate that you deliberately misrepresent (lie about) the situation and goes to further demonstrate the dishonesty of your claims. I demand at once that you retract your misrepresentation and that you comply with the demands in the RfC/U. To wit: You remove all of the personal attacks, wiki-stalking and harassment on your talk pages, you then stop misrepresenting other editors and the other points in the consensus presented in the RfC/U that stands against your behaviour. So, the question put directly to you is when are you going to correct your behaviour? Fnagaton 02:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

What I'm seeing from, in no particular order, Headbomb, Thunderbird2, Greg L, and Fnagaton are accusations not adequately supported by diffs. The referenced RFC/u is to me inconclusive. The idea that another user's conduct justifies violation of WP:CIVIL is incorrect. To be blunt, I am seeing evidence of a long-standing, mudslinging edit war. After six days, there is little evidence any third party editor wants to get involved. It is my suggestion the affected parties return to the appropriate talk page and begin WP:CIVIL, good faith discussions of the content issue. Gerardw (talk) 23:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

If you specifically state which diffs you think are missing I will include them. The RfC/U contains a lot of diffs of the supporting evidence of Thunderbird2's poor uncivil behaviour. For example, Thunderbird2 uses his talk page to misrepresent other editors and despite the RfC/U specifically mentioning this Thunderbird2 has not removed the uncivil harassment content. The failure to remove the harassment content demonstrates Thunderbird2 is not interested in having a civil discussion. The RfC/U is conclusive in finding that Thunderbird2 has been violating WP:DEADHORSE for example, note the RfC/U has no editor refuting the claims or evidence mentioned in the RfC/U, not even one person spoke up in defence of Thunderbird2's actions. Fnagaton 03:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Same. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 18:55, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

All my statements are supported with diffs. As far as the rfc is concerned, it is no more than an escalation of Fnagaton's campaign of harassment, which includes multiple accusations of dishonesty and lying and accusing me, as usual without evidence, of operating 6 different sock-puppets here and one more here, making 7 in total. The rfc is not even worth the paper it's not written on. Thunderbird2 (talk) 18:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The diffs cited by Thunderbird2 misrepresent the situation as I will now demonstrate below this pattern of bad behaviour is documented in the RfC/U against Thunderbird2. Thunderbird2 is being uncivil by trying to question my motives for creating the RfC/U and again the facts disprove what Thunderbird2 claims. This is because when the RfC/U was created two other editors were involved with Thunderbird2's repeated forum shopping and violations of guidelines and policies, these editors also commented on the RfC/U and certified it. Two other uninvolved editors also certified the RfC/U. These facts disprove what Thunderbird2 claims because obviously these other editors would not certify an RfC/U that was just a "campaign of harassment". Thunderbird2 has recently been told by another uninvolved editor to stop beating this dead horse , but as demonstrated by these latest edits Thunderbird2 continues to forum shop here by posting two frivolous "alerts" here. It is now obvious that Thunderbird2 refuses to correct the bad behaviour documented in the RfC/U, this continued disruptive editing is yet more evidence demonstrating why Thunderbird2 should be banned. Fnagaton 02:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, it was I, not Fnagaton who initiated the discussion on getting some sort of external opinion on your deadhorse-beating and repulsively dishonest behaviour. We were considering options, Fnag proposed an RfC, I wanted a ban. Then I thought that a ban request without an RfC would probably be jumping the gun, so we went with an RfC. At this point however, we've pretty much exhausted all options when it comes to dealing with your pointless wikilawyering. You lost, move on. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 03:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Just because you admit to its incitement does not excuse the harassment. The only loser here, in permitting a guideline to be published without consensus, is Misplaced Pages itself. Thunderbird2 (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Can this be closed and archived already?--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

No, WQA has become their Planet Cheron. Gerardw (talk) 03:12, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

• To all: Again Thunderbird2 demonstrates the same bad behaviour as documented inthe RfC/U. For example, Thunderbird2 has again made false claims of harassment and again made false claims about there being no consensus. Both claims have already been refuted here and in the RfC/U yet Thunderbird2 continues to violate WP:STICK and ] related to the consensus and violates WP:NPA by continuing to make false claims about other editors. Each time Thunderbird2 does this it is yet more evidence that the user is repeatedly making disruptive edits and more evidence that shows the user should be banned. Fnagaton 01:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • The tag "stuck" means that the dispute could not be resolved; any further issues will either need to be addressed by an admin or in the next steps in dispute resolution. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Colonel Warden

Hey,

I'm having problems with Colonel Warden at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ann Barker (Civil Servant). I am struggling to believe he is assuming good faith (excuse the irony!) and he is more interested in attacking me and the steps I followed than discussing the matter at hand. I am worried I will lose my cool and would appreciate intervention.

Looking at his talk page, I see other people have had problems too. Computerjoe's talk 15:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Just notified. Apologies if I don't sound very neutral. I am just somewhat annoyed. Computerjoe's talk 15:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

• I have some opinions about this situation, but I would like to wait for his response to your posting to make any further comments. The Seeker 4 Talk 16:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
• The AFD process, by its nature, is adversial. Nominations to delete the work of other editors undergo challenge so that this work is not removed improperly. Asking whether a nomination has followed the process laid out at WP:BEFORE is a proper question in this context and editors should not take this personally. Colonel Warden (talk) 16:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Pretty sure I posted this link to AfD etiquette not that long ago about a different WQA. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
    • My issue is that what I went through doesn't matter. The article's notability does. We should argue that, not steps taken. Computerjoe's talk 17:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
      • The steps taken before a nomination are how one determines notability. If an editor hasn't done the necessary work before nomination, xe has zero grounds for stating that something is not notable. So asking whether you did the requisite work, when you state nothing about doing so in your nomination, is a perfectly valid question, and an issue that has taken editors to RFC before now. Your nomination was a bad one. It stated no deletion-policy-based rationale for deletion at all. Make good nominations, and you won't have people questioning you. If you want something deleted via AFD, explain why you think that deletion policy applies. Follow the recommendations at User:Uncle G/On notability#Giving rationales at AFD and head off the questions before they are even asked.

        If you want to ask "Is this notable?" the correct template is {{notability}}, not {{subst:afd1}}. AFD is where you come after you have determined, by doing your homework beforehand, that something is not notable. And if you've done your homework beforehand, then for goodness' sake state what you did in your nomination! The rest of the world are not mind-readers. Uncle G (talk) 11:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

    • Also, the editor made several implicit personal attacks (such as presuming I was ignorant). Computerjoe's talk 17:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
• Being disputatious at AfD is not a wikiquette issue and editors are free to cite things like WP:BEFORE (not relevant in this case, but...). I don't really see a personal attack. The nomination is fine (I agree with it, in fact), but other editors are free to disagree and disengagement is probably the best course of action. Eusebeus (talk) 17:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Dispute is obviously fine but 'I question whether you have done the slightest work on this topic per WP:BEFORE or whether this is just a drive-by deletion grounded in ignorance?' does strike me as a little rude. I shall disengage, following your advice. Computerjoe's talk 17:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes you are right, it is rude and others may think it a valid WQA issue. My view is that with editors like Colonel Warden, who see themselves as committed to a righteous fight to save content and ramp up their OTT rhetoric accordingly, this kind of slur is best ignored. It doesn't convince; don't let it shouldn't provoke. Eusebeus (talk) 18:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
• I don't see anything wrong with him asking you that sort of question at all. Not rude at all. And you shouldn't nominate something that has already been nominated, without reading all the discussion from previous. Dream Focus (talk) 19:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
  • If you don't think language like "drive-by deletion grounded in ignorance" is at least problematic, I urge you to review our policies on engagement with other editors. Eusebeus (talk) 19:45, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
  • The problem here is a disagreement over the use of the term "ignorance". Officially it means "lack of knowledge", but the word has evolved to mean "stupidity" and/or "rudeness". As such, based on the typical action of the Colonel the word may have been carefully chosen to be ambiguous. We're not fooled. If a warning does not already exist on his page, it will very shortly. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

User:LoveMonkey

Hiya!

I wonder if someone (or ones) can stop by East-West Schism and Talk:East-West Schism. We're having several issues over there:

• Editors who believe that NPOV is achieved by inserting POV content into the article to encourage other editors with differing POVs to balance it out.
• Editors who make 5-10 minor edits to the talk page of the article rather than using the Preview button.
• Editors who label any disagreement with them "Edit Warring," and other failures to WP:AGF.
• Editors who use the talk page of the article as a forum.
• Editors who act as if they own the article.

It'd be great to get a few new sets of eyes to look this one over. Thanks a lot! LOL 22:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I didn't read this page carefully enough. The editor I have specifically in mind is User:LoveMonkey. LOL 22:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Please provide diffs for the specific civility issue. Most of your list does not apply here. --HighKing (talk) 13:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Read the talk page. He fails to AGF from the very top. LOL 03:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

To be frank, most of your list suggests that you should try filing an WP:RFC of some sort; an article RFC ideally. Mediation is a good alternative to an article RFC if you're having trouble talking to each other, but you'll both need to consent to this step. Good luck! Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Gnevin, User:Garion96 and User:Kotniski edit warring to hide dispute.

Outnumbering users in a dispute is not an excuse to edit war to hide or downplay the seriousness of the dispute. It's obvious on that discussion page that there are multiple disputes regarding the guide, by multiple users, that have yet to be concluded. Multiple advocates for a guide that is obviously WP:CREEP removed tags before discussion has ended to downplay the seriousness of the discussion . At one point a User:Kotniski modified the tags refusing to accept that there were multiple disputes . I was falsely reported of violating WP:3RR just for fulfilling that same users request to complete his modified version of the tag . And then he reverted what he requested after all that which was more of a violation of WP:3RR than my fulfillment of his request. He also removed the original RFC before the 30 days since the only response hasn't been in favor of the guide. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The diffs provided indicate an article dispute not a lack of civility. Citing a 3RR posting which resulted in the complainant being blocked] does not make a compelling case. Gerardw (talk) 22:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't just me that they were edit warring. User:Termer put the dispute tag there. Should I report it at the administrators notice board? Oicumayberight (talk) 23:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't understand what this is about. I've just been trying to focus the discussion - and the tags - on the section of the page that the "dispute" is actually about, in order to actually get somewhere. If every page that one or two users have some minor problem with is going to be marked at the top as disputed, then we might as well put a disputed tag at the top of every policy/guideline/essay page as a matter of routine.--Kotniski (talk) 09:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry Kotniski. I guess this is about nothing. Since I got a 12 hour ban for fulfilling your request, I have no business complaining. There can only be one guilty party in this case. Since the administrator didn't have time to investigate the case closer before banning me, then I guess I'm the only guilty one here. Oicumayberight (talk) 02:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see an issue of civility here. Avoid edit-warring and try a dispute resolution mechanism. It may so happen that mediation or an article RFC is all you need. :) If there is still a lot of edit-warring, then of course, go to an admin noticeboard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Incivility by Fnagaton and Greg_L

I came here a few days ago after being accused of lying by User:Headbomb (and the claim was repeated here also by User:Fnagaton). I was asked by gerardw to take the discussion back to the talk page, where I have now been accused of harassment by Fnagaton and invited to sell leprosy by User:Greg_L . What should I do now? Thunderbird2 (talk) 17:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is actionable, although I agree that they are being impolite. Probably they are frustrated and offended by the squelching noises coming from your horse. Dropping the stick might bring this to an end. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:34, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Watch out Scheffield, the Thunderbird will unleash WP:WQA/SheffieldSteel on you for your "personal attack"!Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 18:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thunderbird, I suggest you simply walk away from the whole dispute and begin working on improving other areas of Misplaced Pages. Walking away is the best option as trying to continue the debate is only going to increase tempers on both sides, and you apparently have no chance of gaining consensus for your position. That said, I have no opinion about the actual proposal, and this is not the place to discuss it anyway. The fact remains that the only thing you can do now is to disengage. If you continue trying to argue about it I don't see any other possible outcome than you eventually being blocked for disruption, as your continued arguments are not changing anyone's mind. Don't take this as an attack on you or your position, this is simply how I see this playing out if you don't simply walk away from the debate. Is it really that important after all? The Seeker 4 Talk 18:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

• T-bird is using Wikilawyering and misrepresentation to portray himself as a grieving victim of incivility. He, as well as anyone else, knows I was not seriously suggesting that he go into the business of selling a contagious bacterium to rogue nations. I was employing a facetious metaphor to tell him that no one is interested in his proposals, which, by the way, amount to nothing more or less than WP:tendentious and endless haranguing on an issue that was settled long ago. Now…

  T-bird: You are without a doubt a WP:Single-purpose account (your contributions and your user page) dedicated to a lost cause and are purely WP:disruptive to Misplaced Pages. If you persist at this, I can certainly abandon employing glib, dismissive humor in my dealings with you, and will be more than pleased to deal with your disruption in the manner befitting here. Greg L (talk) 19:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

• Thunderbird2 is again using misrepresentation against other editors and forum shopping, both actions are in violation of the RfC/U findings about Thunderbird2's behaviour. To Thunderbird2, when are you going to remove the uncivil harassment and misrepresentation content on your talk pages which is documented in Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Thunderbird2? To others, how long are constructive editors like Greg, Headbomb and myself going to have to be subjected to the continued misrepresentation, harassment and disruptive forum shopping behaviour of Thunderbird2? Fnagaton 03:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Thunderbird2, listen to User:Theseeker4 because "you apparently have no chance of gaining consensus for your position" and you should "walk away" because "if you continue trying to argue about it I don't see any other possible outcome than you eventually being blocked for disruption.". Please, Thunderbird2, listen to other editors when they tell you to stop. Fnagaton 03:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of alleged provocation, these posts by Greg_L contain abusive taunts. They cite diseases in an attempt to make "facetious metaphor" Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• They cite diseases in an attempt to make "facetious metaphor". Oh dear! And if Misplaced Pages talk pages were frequented by 2nd-graders, mentioning leprosy might not be appropriate. Too many editors try to hide behind the apron strings of “civility” and come whining to WQA or start an RfC as an insincere battle tactic when they are loosing and their ideas or behavior have been criticized or mocked. The result? Some editors here trip all over themselves in an effort to write posts that are inoffensive when admins are doing “Monday morning quarterbacking.” Your criticism, Cuddlyable3, is absurd and insincere.

  I’m thinking that you are still smarting over my adding this animation to the Mandelbrot set article and you deleted it. Splendid *contribution* there; I spent hours with three separate programs to make it and keep it ultra-compact for fast load times, and your *contribution* is to hit the “undo” link. So, we editwarred over that, and you came here to WQA to whine about a post of mine, and got soundly rejected and the blame placed on you for creating the conflict in the first place. That seems to be what you do: create editing conflict with others while simultaneously hiding behind a veneer of wikiword civility. Looking at your contributions, you seem to make frequent use of WQA’s as an editwarring tactic as you were here only eight days ago. Perhaps you’ve honed this tactic and find it a useful. However, it reminds me of insurgents in Iraq who hide behind women and children in the streets while shooting at Coalition forces (oops, I did it again: I used a “war” metaphor).

  Finally, all this was back in November; get over it. I note your block log, where one admin wrote Continued Disruptive editing despite warnings and opposing consensus from editors and/or administrators. So, just pardon me all over the place for not endeavoring to be more like you in my editing behavior and interactions with others; it doesn’t impress. Greg L (talk) 18:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Greg L, your sarcasm and unique metaphors/similes towards others are truly provocative. Agreeably, they are rhetorical and not meant to be taken at all literally. However, how you say things is causing the problems here. Are you admitting above that you may have "criticized or mocked" someones "ideas or behavior"?? If yes, welcome to the land of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 20:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Oh dear! Sarcasm too has been outlawed on Misplaced Pages? Bwilkins, it honestly seems to me that you have confused en.Wikipdia with Red China. Our talk pages are marketplaces for the exchange of ideas. Wikipedians pitch ideas on talk pages and debate them and see if there are any takers in an effort to arrive at a community consensus on editorial content and MOS and MOSNUM guidelines. I demand that you point out where it is against Misplaced Pages policy on civility to “criticize” bad ideas or other editors’ bad behavior. Patently absurd. And you hope to be an administrator one day?? I suggest you go and actually read policies you linked to above. But…

  On second though, you just might be right about this. Perhaps Misplaced Pages is a venue where even really, really bad behavior should not be criticized because everything is relative—even *truth*. So, although I don’t exactly completely wholeheartedly agree with your belief system wherein it is improper to criticize others’ tendentious and disruptive behavior here on Misplaced Pages (doing so might make them feel poopy about themselves), I give you an A+ for effort! Thanks. I’ll try to do much better next time.

  And, to (finally) answer your question directly, yes; I freely admit that I have criticized Thunderbird’s behavior here. (*sound of audience gasp*) Greg L (talk) 22:46, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Sarcasm is against community standards when used to attack others. Misplaced Pages is not a public US forum with free speech rights (it is privately owned by Misplaced Pages Foundation). It is possible to discuss content and other editors behavior while remaining civil. Gerardw (talk) 23:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Sarcasm is against community standards when used to attack others. I absolutely agree with that statement. No one should be subject to “personal attacks”. And what does that policy actually say since there seem to be a few editors here who are oh-so anxious to link to stuff in an “if I made it blue, it must be true” fashion?? The following paints a clear picture of the nature of conduct that is considered to be a “personal attack” on Misplaced Pages:

There is no bright-line rule about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable:
• Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.
• Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream.

So with regard to my post being “used to attack others”, there is no evidence that I did this because non exists. Any reasonable interpretation of what I wrote that passes anyone’s *grin test* here reveals that I was not “attacking” Thunderbird with the equivalent of “you are a one-eyed, baby-killing palestinian homosexual” or some such nonsense; everyone deserves the right to participate here on Misplaced Pages and not be subjected to such treatment. I didn’t even suggest T‑bird has bad breath. My message clearly was (and is) quite simple: “no one is in the least interested in your proposal.” That much is plainly obvious and I utterly reject disingenuous or misinformed attempts to paint it as anything other than that. Notwithstanding T‑bird’s protestations, he didn’t really think for a nanosecond that I was seriously suggesting that he go into the business of selling a contagious bacterium to rogue nations (which would be a career suggestion, not a personal attack, if interpreted literally).

If someone here wants to make it against Misplaced Pages policy to employ facetious and glib metaphors to tell another editor that no one likes his or her idea, first go revise WP:No personal attacks. I conform my behavior to the community consensus on what constitutes a personal attack; not your interpretation of it. Now…

T-bird’s professing being “attacked” is pure wikilawyering to circumvent the inconvenient truth that he is being tendentious and disruptive and wants to persist at it. Anyone who has had the misfortune of having had to deal with T-bird understands this. User:Theseeker4 hasn’t had to deal with T-bird and still managed to write an extremely insightful post that hit the nail right on the head.

Now, no one is really that thin-skinned here; they just pretend to be in order to create wikidrama or to impress others with how they can write absurdly politically correct ramblings in hopes that it somehow qualifies them to be an admin. It doesn’t. Either that, or they are spouting off here without fully understanding the basic facts. Either way, I’m quite done here. Goodbye.

P.S. I don’t care if you drink beer, Gerardw; I doubt anyone does, but I will defend your right to proudly proclaim that fact on the privately owned Misplaced Pages Foundation. Greg L (talk) 01:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

• I don't see what the problem is with Greg's comments. They are clearly meant to draw attention towards Thunderbird2's weak unsubstantiated point of view and not personally directed at Thunderbird2 himself, therefore they cannot be a personal attack. It would be a sad day for Misplaced Pages when it is against policy to use a sarcastic metaphor when drawing attention to a fallacious statement. Misplaced Pages is not there yet and I hope it never will be. It is disengenuous when someone screams "personal attack" each time their weak unsubstantiated point of view is highlighted by sacrasm. It is also against guidelines for that person to beat the same dead horse and continuously forum shop their weak unsubstantiated point of view all over the place. For example when someone uses a forum like WQA citing "incivility" when actually there isn't any invility and wastes everyones valuable time and effort. Fnagaton 02:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Two more of Fnagaton's unfounded accusations of lying: . It seems he is unable or unwilling to follow WP:AGF. Thunderbird2 (talk) 11:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The above post is another example of the user misrepresenting the situation because the diffs cited do not support the claims made by the user. In actual fact the diffs cited above are further evidence to demonstrate how the user is continuing to forum shop the same issue in multiple forums and continuing to misrepresent the situation, this bad behaviour is documented in the RfC/U Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Thunderbird2. WP:AGF does not mean an editor has to assume good faith when there is obvious and repeated overwhelming evidence of bad faith actions, this situation applies to Thunderbird2's repeated violations of guidelines and policies which are also documented in the RfC/U. The only remaining question is when is Thunderbird2 going to comply with the findings of the RfC/U? Fnagaton 02:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

And my question is when can this be closed and archived?--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Not likely for a long time. Sarcasm used to undermine someone's input (and even to discourage it) is uncivil. All the rhetoric in trying to defend such actions are really allowing them to dig a big deep hole . I keep waiting for one big action that might help them fill it in and actually join the Misplaced Pages Community. Until then, I see a light at the bottom of that hole ... is that ... China? Nobody is blameless here, so a couple of people need to start accepting their role, and changing their ways (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 15:35, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Changing their ways would be Thunderbird2 agreeing to comply with the findings of the RfC/U and modifying his beahviour and removing the harassment content. Then people can move forward.Fnagaton 13:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Bwilkins I generally approve of your role on this noticeboard. To date you have not struck me as someone who accepts naively any claim of incivility. Please consider whether the complainant is not frivolously and vexatiously being disruptive by claiming to be personally injured by what is, in reality, nothing more than gruff straight talk.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

GMW ... I appreciate the comment. I agree the complainant is pushing the envelope, however, as acknowledged, one of the "offenders" has, indeed, acted sarcastically towards them in order to dissuade additional input or put them down. Admission, and contrition are two separate things. I sincerely believe that once the sarcasm stops, everyone can move on...that's all I'm looking for from my POV. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 18:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Acted sarcasticly towards the point of view, not the person.There is a world of difference. I think you need to read the RfC/U against Thunderbird2 with all the evidence and then you might see that Greg's comment about the single purpose position Thunderbird2 keeps on beating (for months and months, constantly) is actually really quite reserved. Fnagaton 13:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

If you were to draw up a list of "speech acts" you don't want to see on Misplaced Pages, with 1 being negligible and 10 being the worst, where would you put death threats? Where do you put racial slurs? Where do you put garden-variety insults ("moron", "asshole")? What level is the cut-off for when a user incurs sanctions? What's at level 1, and what's at level 10? Where does sarcasm rate on the scale? And where is sarcasm specifically prohibited by WP policies?

user:EVula does get some creative ones, though, so even death threats can have redeeming features.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 12:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Thunderbird2 is "frivolously and vexatiously being disruptive by claiming to be personally injured by what is, in reality, nothing more than gruff straight talk." - I completely agree with that quote. So what can be done about Thunderbird2? Fnagaton 13:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Once you accept responsibility for your role, and then cut it out, then I expect Thunderbird will stop being "vexatious". If he doesn't, then I expect to see an RFC/U that involves both of you together. It's the easy and adult way, isn't it. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 13:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

"your role"? I accept all I did was: 1) Provide a stronger argument than Thunderbird2. 2) Refuse to accept Thunderbird2's lack of answers to direct questions. 3) Refuse to accept Thunderbird2's violation of guidelines and policies followed by Thunderbird2's harassment and misrepresentation when it involves other editors and myself. 4) Provided part of the evidence in the RfC/U which several other editors, involved and uninvolved, certified. Basically, I'm not going to say I'm sorry for being part of the group that helped change the guideline text for the better by developing consensus with other editors while Thunderbird2 repeatedly became disruptive to the process of consensus building. Are you trying to insinuate I'm somehow not being adult with your last remark? The fact is there is an RfC/U standing against Thunderbird2 and he needs to accept his role and modify his behaviour first of all. Fnagaton 13:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

You're correct, Thunderbird has had an RFC/U to do with handling of arguments and consensus. Your role was to include admitted sarcastic comments to demean and dissuade further editing by Thunderbird. You fail to see that those comments were an issue, and attempt to both laugh them off, and you also attempt to justify them. If you fail to see that this is the what appears to be the final issue in the resolution of this WQA, then I'm not sure how much clearer this can be made. The two are separate - whether you believe someone to be an SPA or a "pain in the ass", does not give you the permission to act untowards in their direction. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 14:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

That was not my role at all and I don't think your summary is even slightly accurate because you are trying to call into question my motives by incorrectly asserting what you think I meant. Since you do not know my mind then you are incorrect to keep on trying to claim you know my mind better, especially when I have already stated the accurate interpretation. i.e. Any comments posted are there to draw attention to a fallacious point of view, not to demean or attack anyone personally. Also your summary misrepresents the situation because nowhere did I "admit" that any comments were "demean and dissuade", if you have any link supporting that claim then please post it, otherwise retract your unsupported assertion. Indeed I see Greg's comments as meaning to try to get Thunderbird2 to stop beating the same dead horse and to stop Thunderbird2 from violating guidelines and policies. I do agree with Goodmorningworld that the comments are gruff straight talk. I note you have not answered the question put directly to you about your "adult" related comment. Why is that? Please answer the question made above. However, applying your own (incorrect) strict interpretation regarding sarcasm back onto your own words (to demonstrate how fallacious your point is): I take your lack of answer to mean that your comment is intended to insinuate something against me personally by making a sarcastic comment intended to demean me and inhibit further editing. This means, of course following your own strict interpretation, you don't appear to follow the same "high standards" you expect for others. Now then, I see two future actions for you. 1) You answer the question and correct what you really meant such that you state that what you meant to write was not in any way a personally targetted comment, with a retraction of the original comment. I would then accept that correction, of course since to continue to call into question someone's motives in that situation is counter-productive and churlish. The conclusion from that is therefore that questioning the motives of someone after you've been corrected with respect to those motives is wrong. Which of course means you retract your incorrect assumptions about what you think "my role" is above where you call into question my motives. 2) You then drop this meta-debate here about sarcasm (it isn't the correct forum) and move it to the relevant policy talk page instead. Then if you really want to apply very strict no-sarcasm to the relevant policies then you'll have to persuade others that your argument has merit, which currently your argument does not. Fnagaton 14:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Collectonian and Farix refuse to honor the Merge consensus on AFD

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The AFD was to Merge the article, not delete it. Please look at the discussion on the talk page for the author the information was to be merged to. Dream Focus (talk) 00:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

This is not a civility issue (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 01:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

They seem to be quite hostile toward other editors though. And when I asked before on the Merge article to see if policy was violated, she followed me there, and made ] personal attacks against me. At the Merge article's talk page, an editor told me to take the issue here. Dream Focus (talk) 01:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I see you are still WP:FORUMSHOPing. --Farix (Talk) 01:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Assume good faith. Where exactly have I brought this up before? You refused to honor a merger, someone discussing this on my talk page, so I went and asked about Merger policy on the merger policy talk page. I was told to come here instead. That isn't forum shopping. Dream Focus (talk) 01:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The wikilawyering policy page was before this. Check the time. It was a totally different issue. Just like when I first heard sales figures don't equal nobility, I went to the talk page about that policy and discussed it there. These are not related issues. Dream Focus (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The merger was done. Stop forum shopping already. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It was not a merger, as voted on by consensus. It was a delete. Every time someone tries to merge any of the information, you delete it, and become confrontational, as the talk page shows. Stop making person attacks, and focus on the issue. A delete is not a merge. Dream Focus (talk) 02:26, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Please direct your attentions to this post by her. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mizuki_Kawashita&diff=next&oldid=269186780 The get over it, comment, seems rather hostile. Both editors were against merging anything. I see now, they have decided to allow a brief bit of information to be merged at least. But the issue of their incivility still remains. I want other opinions. Do these two editors seem overly hostile to others? I'm glad they finally caved in and allowed some information to be merged, originally refusing that in the discussion, but their general attitude, and aggressive nature I believe is not fitting of wikiquette. Dream Focus (talk) 02:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'll echo Wilkins, not a civility issue. The comic is not notable and doesn't need mentioned anywhere. Grsz_Review 02:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

(ECx2) And I'm sure anyone looking at this will also look at your contribs to see your forum shopping, semi-stalking behavior, and the warnings by admins on your talk page telling you to stop harassing me and others. And, FYI, no one caved in. That stuff will be removed eventually, it is just a compromise while the discussion continues. Note that multiple people are supporting the original version. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

(EC) No one has made any personal attacks against you, despite your numerous ones against everyone else. Telling you to stop forum shopping is not a personal attack, its a reminder. All valid info WAS merged before the AfD ever finished. The AfD just confirmed it. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Now even when she accepts the information merged there for the moment, she says it is only temporary, and will be removed eventually. Interesting. So you aren't going to follow the consensus and let it be merged, only tolerate a bit for now, and delete it later on when no one is around to notice. And stop acussing me of forum shopping, stalking, and other nonsense. How can I be stalking you, when I posted at those places first, you following me there and posting afterward? You aren't making any sense. Dream Focus (talk) 02:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Consensus was followed. You and the article creator just don't like how it was followed (and you only got involved following behind me). Anyone can read your talk page and see that I'm simply repeating what admins have told you. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I was already involved during the AFD discussion, and then had someone post on my talk page about it, and then got involved again. It has nothing to do with you. Consensus was not followed. Stop distorting things, and making ridiculous accusations. Dream Focus (talk) 02:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The only incivilities here are several personal attacks by User:Kintetsubuffalo on both myself and Collectonian and your declarations that we are being dishonorable. --Farix (Talk) 03:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Collectionian and TheFarix. This does indeed look like some forum shopping by Dream Focus. Dream Focus is also making false accussations of personal attacks. Dream Focus, I hope that you re-read WP:NPA to get an understanding on what a personal attack is. Just because someone disagrees with you does not in any way mean that they are making personal attacks against you even if they being a little incivil, period. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 04:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

As someone who just recently had an encounter with one of the editors mentioned in this heading, I have to say I sensed extreme "ownership" issues on the editor's part, and a tactic of goading other editors with overly aggressive actions and rhetoric. If another editor opposes in a similar manner, this is promptly reported as an "attack" at a discussion board. I found the whole experience disruptive, and I can only imagine how off-putting such behavior would be to a new editor, or one, such as myself, who innocently wandered into this editor's "territory". Dekkappai (talk) 05:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your non-neutral response. You coming down here to attempt to inflame things is no better than DreamFocus jumping in your report above and trying to do the same (which got him a warning, FYI). Re-read the top of this page regarding what the purpose of this page is. It is not for you to continue piling on personal attacks just because you feel it is somehow justified because the two of you feel some need to back one another up. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this issue needs the intervention of an administrator. Dream Focus was forum shopping and making false accussations of personal attacks. If the issue gets taken to WP:AN or WP:ANI, can somebody notify me?. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 19:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

• What is clear, beyond anything else, is that this is not the venue for this discussion; please try a noticeboard as suggested above. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:11, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Jewish epithets and overall uncivilized talk

I've discovered discussions by users User:Spotfixer, User:RolandR, and User:Eleland, on User:Eleland's talkpage: Link.

I know rules on userpages are more relaxed than article talks, but this kind of anti-Israeli grouping has become quite common with the mentioned people. I don't mind if users who share similar opinions talk with each other, bu comments such as Jewish and obsessively Zionist admin baited me until he ran out of his 3 reverts, This confoems to a pattern of systematic abuse of anti-Zionist Jews, and vandalism of related articles, and Everywhere in the world it seems the law fucks the poor, weak and marginalized and supports the already rich and powerful. One would have thought a people's encyclopedia would be different.. User:ChrisO, an admin often involved in similar disputes hasn't responded to my message. He previously wanted user User:Brewcrewer temporarily blocked for this I understand your frustration. Since ChrisO was so experienced with these kinds of violations, I assumed he would be very concerned about my message: Questions but unfortunately, he hasn't responded.

I'm just honestly tired of some group of users being allowed to group up and talk about the evil Zionists while others continue to be warned/blocked for doing the same. This is all per Wiki not a battlefield and Wikihounding, though I'm sure some of you could find other rules that apply to this situation. Eleland has already been blocked for incivility for a separate incident but he continues to act inappropriate in his talk page. And, other editors have followed him.

Anyways, I don't know the exact punishments and to be honest I don't care...I simply want people to know what's going on. Cheers! Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

There's not a lot can be done for discussions on a user's own Talk pages where he is discussing among other editors that aren't objecting. Misplaced Pages is not censored and 3rd party incivility complaints usually result in being told to "avert your eyes". Most of the rant is devoted to kicking off at his 2 week block. My advice is to keep away from discussions on his Talk page that you're not involved in. --HighKing (talk) 13:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

QuackGuru seems to want ownership of the Larry Sanger page

QuackGuru has consistently opposed any editing of the page for Larry Sanger for some time now, and a number of editors have tried to fix the article only to be deterred by the prospect of an edit war. See, for example .

After a fair amount of work reorganizing the article (among other improvements) by other editors, QuackGuru did a cut-and-paste revert to a version from a month prior, but claimed this was not a reversion . I'm not the only editor to consider this inappropriate .

QuackGuru has now resorted to scattering all the "poor content" templates he knows throughout the article .

I've done an RfC on the article and another editor has asked for a third opinion, but the main problem seems to be that QuackGuru seems to be more focused on obstruction than offering any real contribution. (Even a "the introduction sucks" comment from another editor was useful inasmuch as it prompted an attempt at improvement.) Rvcx (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to be a civility issue at all...y'all aren't even talking to one another. This is purely a content dispute, so another avenue of dispute resolution is more appropriate. That said, I'm not seeing why you are having an issue with his adding what, to me, appear to be valid tags noting issues with the article? -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The talk page is a mile long with conversation, but I think everyone is finding QuackGuru very difficult to communicate with. Any changes at all are "mixing up" or "messing up" the article, and "fixed overlinking and redundancy" is how he describes reverting the entire article to a version from a month past. I consider it a Wikiquette issue largely because QuackGuru's tactic of repeatedly intoning "I restored sourced information" while completely ignoring attempts at discussion from others (such as the fact that The Colbert Report isn't exactly a reliable source) is seriously undermining any attempt to reach a mutual understanding. And of course any comments from other users are immediately deleted from User_talk:QuackGuru, leaving only complaints about "strange edits" and alleged intimidation attempts. Spreading tags on the article seems like just the latest way to express displeasure without actually articulating what he finds wrong with the article. Rvcx (talk) 06:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

• I too can see little wrong with the edits or the etiquette. The user is involved in discussion. This seems to be a content dispute and a third opinion or rfc would work better. As is often the case the 'pointing finger' seems to have more etiquette problems. In this case i remind Rvcx to assume good faith. --neon white talk 03:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually RfC was tried about a month ago, and 3O a week or so. Not that I particularly want to get involved again, but RfC and 3O just haven't worked. — Ched (talk) 04:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The page is protected now, making it a moot point, we'll see how that works. — Ched (talk) 04:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

User:71.188.47.103

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

After reverting some vandalism from this IP user on various pages, I started receiving harassing messages on my talk page. I responded, on both my talk page and the user's talk page, for the harassment to end, or I would send this issue for moderation. Today, the user blanked the entire thread on my talk page (as can be seen in the page's history), replacing it with the line "Leave me alone!" I have reverted my talk page, leaving the user's comment as well as a notice of the vandalism, and have notified the user on both talk pages that I have decided to refer this matter for outside help. --Ericdn (talk) 20:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It will be tough to moderate with an IP editor ... it's quite probably dynamic, and would change. I'll still see what can be done. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Yikes! 6 warnings all from you, I can see why they want you to leave them alone :-) After the first couple, you might have been better served by involving someone else, either through anti-vandalism or other admin incidents. I have added a "welcome" template that is generally used for IP users who have vandalized a page. If someone doesn't know the rules, it's important to give them the rules. I don't think much else can be done in this case, as again, it's an IP editor. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:20, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

You'd be better served reporting this IP address as a vandal to WP:AIV, preferably after you've warned the editor and he still persists in vandalism. There's not a lot can be done here for anon IP addresses that may be dynamic. --HighKing (talk) 13:40, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help. Yes, I gave 6 warnings, but, on the other hand, I also had to undo 6 cases of vandalism from this IP address. In the past couple of days, there have been no further incidents. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to take a semi-Wikibreak due to health reasons, but I will certainly follow your advice if the problem reappears. Many thanks again! --Ericdn (talk) 07:44, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

It would appear, based on the IP editor's comment about being "cyberbullied" that they have been whipped into submission. As a I suggested on your talkpage, I recommend staying away from their talkpage. Next time, take it easy on new editors...if nobody has shown them the rules (by using a Welcome template for example) then all the templating in the world will not help. 6 warnings was a bit excessive. Conversation with newbies can go a long way. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again. If nothing else, I suppose this can be considered a lesson that needed to be learned, hopefully for both of us. I'll stop biting the newcomers and work on my patience, and I hope this editor will have a better understanding of what is and isn't appropriate for Misplaced Pages. Once again, many thanks to everyone for their efforts to help with this dispute. I'm fully satisfied with the resolution. --Ericdn (talk) 11:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Tom Lennox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just happened to notice a user edit-warring and uncivilly dealing with other editors here. I am uninvolved, and wish to stay that way. Non Curat Lex (talk) 22:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

You are generally required to advise them of this filing. However, as edit summaries are permanent, I have provided the user with a friendly level 4 warning for personal attacks. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 23:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

As actions continue today, I have opened an WP:ANI thread. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 17:02, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

User:ThuranX personnal attack on my user space.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This particular comment ] on my user space would be considered a personnal attack I think.--Jojhutton (talk) 03:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Complainant is a POV pusher on the Barack Obama page. He's insistent that we establish on Misplaced Pages that President Obama is not the legitimate president, because he was secretly born in Kenya. He's doing this over and over. When I added my support to a recently closed proposal, OUTSIDE the 'archiving' template area, he responded by warning me not to interfere with archived discussions by altering their content. I didn't do that. He refuses to apologize for the incorrect template, choosing instead to ignore me, and continue to show that policy intimidation tactics are his new weapon of choice. if he's saying that he's not illiterate, but simply prefers to let false accusations stand, then consider this me counter-filing against him for his false accusations against me. I did not violate the guideline, yet he refuses to redact his accusation. ThuranX (talk) 03:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Addendum - I notice that at some point AFTER my posting diff, someone moved my comment in. ThuranX (talk) 03:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

He doesn't have to redact anything, rather, you should be the one considering redacting a personal attack. Perhaps it would be best for all involved to relax for awhile and persue something different. Grsz 03:40, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

So he can falsely accuse me? Then so can I. thanks for the tip, I'll go edit my comment now. It'll probably be some ridiculous accusation that he can't deny either. ThuranX (talk) 03:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I have tracked down the editor who changed my comments, creating about half this drama. I have also apologized to jojhutton for that accusation, and redacted the illiteracy comment. I still expect an apology from him for falsely accusing me, as he was able to link my eidt diff, and refuses to admit that i violated nothing at all. ThuranX (talk) 03:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Calling him a "coward" probably doesn't help much. Perhaps best to just walk away. Sincerely, --A Nobody 04:39, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I've taken this to ANI; blaming others for incivility is simply not good enough. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:07, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

He has been blocked. Tiptoety 05:08, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Amandajm

Amanda and I have been making progress on the layout of images on the Leonardo da Vinci article and posting on each other's talk pages, unfortunately this suddenly escalated when Amanda came to my talk page and posted: "PLEEEASE stop stuffing around...You have never worked as a layout artist, that is patently obvious!....I'm really busy and I get sick of having to revert layout edits that are a) not good solutions b) look bad c) diminish important pictures d)cause gaps in text when viewed on a wide screen." Amanda did also say that "I know you are meaning to be helpful. But too strenuous application of a set of rules can make things worse not better. You have editorial skills in other areas! Please use them!" I responded here Although well-intentioned, the editor has preferences regarding having large images in articles, regardless of accessibility. I have brought this here because, in spite of the warm words at the end of her post, the earlier attacks were sufficiently unjustified. Tom B (talk) 15:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Amanda is a straight-talking Australian, don't take offence: keep talking. The essence of this is image size, and that's just a matter of preferences, not worth fighting over. The guideline is only that, though it is a criterion at FAC, when it becomes enforceable. My suggestion is: put image sizes aside for the time being, because winning such a small argument is no big deal in itself; you both have a lot to offer on a subject you share an interest in, so continue to work cooperatively on other aspects of the article, and the issue will probably resolve itself in time. In my experience, images sizes are often changed from thumbs to pixels to thumbs and back again by a series of editors and are impossible to nail down permanently. qp10qp (talk) 16:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

cheers qp, on image sizes there are some constraints outlined by wp:mos regardless of individual preferences and screen sizes...as you say, it is an FAC criterion. i'm sure A has a lot more to offer on the subject of the article in question, for me it's not about winning arguments but collaboration to develop a better encyclopedia. the most straight forward way i've found to stabilise image sizes is to remove all pixels and then to adequately justify any forcing. Tom B (talk) 01:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Chronic problems with overzealous reverts, BITEing

Moved from WP:AN/I. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I came across E dog95 (talk · contribs · logs · block log) at the end of January when I observed the editor issuing 4im warnings , , as a first warning for typically petty vandalism , and left a polite note about it. The editor pretty much rejected my advice stating he/she disagreed with WP:BITE and warns "losers". Ensuing coaching on civility was also rejected. Looking further, I realized a general problem with bad reversions: of cited edits because of non-english sources and edits labeled as vandalism that shouldn't be . However, the editor thinks I'm the one with the issues so I backed off. However, since then, the editor has been blocked for 3RR, continues overzealous reversions/mislabeling vandalism: and BITEing , .

I think this user is a prolific vandal fighter, and wants to contribute constructively, but doesn't want to accept (at least my) feeback about not understanding our policies/culture. I think having other folks weigh in and some focused coaching would be very helpful here. I thought about recommending removal of TW, but if we can get this editor using it correctly, it would be better. Thoughts? Toddst1 (talk) 18:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Let me introduce you to the "Preview" button ;-P (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 18:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

This one looks like Wikiquette more than ANI material. Thoughts? Edit Centric (talk) 18:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this was brought here; Toddst's message was no different to what we would've posted had we come across the same issues. If an editor doesn't understand the policies/norms, or doesn't accept that his interpretation is way off, then what can we do? There's only so much education that can be given for an editor who's been here since 2007.

Biting newbies by using 4im warnings as first warnings is not acceptable because it can deter good contributors from this project, who are just unfamiliar with wiki-conventions. Referring to other editors as losers and new editors are useless, is not just uncivil, but an assumption of bad faith too. Assuming good faith and being civil are not optional; you're expected to do so at all times. Why? Because the purpose of this project is not just to build a high quality 💕, but to do so in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Failing to assume good faith, engaging in uncivil discourse, biting newbies, and so on, all go against this purpose. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems to be a problem here for sure - reverting this edit which appears to be a simple layout change with this edit with the edit summary "m (Reverted 1 edit by 128.243.253.113 identified as vandalism to last revision by E dog95. using TW)" is a serious no-no. Exxolon (talk) 22:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The talk page of that IP address, shows it has committed many vandals, several different editors giving warnings. Was that taken into consideration? When you find someone vandalizing something, don't you check their history to see what else they have done? Dream Focus (talk) 00:56, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

An IP's history has nothing to do with reverting individual edits - especially when we know it's shared, like that one. Toddst1 (talk) 01:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

• http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:99.243.228.15 This person just kept vandalizing. If it was an honest mistake, something minor, then you should politely talk to them. If they did something specifically for vandalism, no sense saying "do it a few more times if you want, we never block anyone until the 4th offense, and even then the ban won't last but for a day or so, then you can start vandalizing again." The user you claim he was too harsh with, went on to keep on vandalizing, even after being blocked once. Dream Focus (talk) 00:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Question: You lost me. What does that have to do with this discussion? Toddst1 (talk) 00:28, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The complaint was he was too harsh on some first time offenders. One of those listed as an example, was later blocked for other things. So just giving him a few warnings, wouldn't have stopped him. I would also like to point out, that I found here he has in fact given polite warnings to people before. This editor doesn't seem to just give out harsh warnings to first time people unless he believes it is justified. Is there anyone he gave out a last chance warning to first, which was not later banned for disruptive behavior? Dream Focus (talk) 00:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Clarification: I don't believe I mentioned that editor above. It's not a consistent problem occurring in every instance, rather it's a recurring one with issues of WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE. I also pointed out that the editor is a prolific vandal fighter. Toddst1 (talk) 01:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Level 4 warnings are never given straight off. It's not a question of them being justified. It's not the way[REDACTED] works. Level 1 warning are used first because they contain instructions and guides on etiquette which we are required to assume will help an editor become productive. Assuming that an editor is 'doomed to fail' (demostrated here) violates civility policy. There are some issues of not assuming good faith and misuse of scripts here that the editor needs to acknowledge and correct. --neon white talk 01:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the editor in question is directly violating policy. However, I would be careful about saying that level 4 warnings are never justified as an only warning. Certain cases such as very serious BLP violations, serious threats and personal attacks, etc. may justify a level 4im warning. Likewise, an established editor who makes a personal attack, blanks a page does not need the instructional warning, so would be due a level 4 right off. That said, neither of those situations apply to the editor of this WQA so in this case the level 4 warnings are NOT justified, regardless of whether editors warned in this manner repeated their vandalism. The Seeker 4 Talk 01:36, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

It's all personal opinion but i personally believe a level 2 or 3 is more appropriate for those situations. I think this editor could be reminded that vandalism only accounts (we're talking about obvious blatent disruption here) are often blocked without any warning so they aren't entirely necessary. --neon white talk 18:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted that the user specifically told me that he has no intention of giving anything but 198.161.173.180 (talk) 15:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) It looks like E dog95 hasn't editing in a few days, hopefully taking a break to recharge the batteries and his sanity :). Seriously, the edit about not giving multiple warnings and that attitude is troubling. I am no saint and I am happy to call folks bad faith editors or trolls after dealing with them repeatidly, but we do have to remember that there are true noobies around here and lots of good faith IP editors, ect.(i actualy would prefer to edit as an IP but dont) and that gently 1st warnings can't hurt. I am truely amazed when I vistit a talk page and it has like 30 warnings on it, come on! The level of frustration at having to deal with "stupid" people and vandals I am sure gets to all of us at times, but that is what wiki breaks and others imput is needed for. Anyways, just my venting. Cheers, --Tom 16:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I was bold, and used a Single Issue WARNING about improper use of templates, with an extensive discussion of why. Driving off newbies is disruptive overall, as is a failure to WP:AGF on each individual occasion. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

• Another major point that didnt occur to me originally is that these could well be shared ips at least one of the above seem to be a school. The editor has never posted a shared ip template on a talk page so the potential for an completely innocent user to get a level4 warning is there and could easily be misunderstood to be in reference to good edits they have performed. --neon white talk 18:25, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution