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Turn off display of in-line cites by default

How can I add a support message to your proposal? It seems I shouldn't edit the section directly.  HWV258  03:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind offer! It's archived now, and I believe we're not supposed to alter archived threads. However, I plan on re-introducing the proposal at some time in the future and I have some ideas for making a more effective presentation, having to do with side-by-side comparisons of screenshots. If and when I get a second try off the ground I will gladly solicit your input especially. --Goodmorningworld (talk) 03:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

RfA thankspam

		Thank you for your participation in my recent RfA, which failed with 90/38/3; whether you supported, opposed or remained neutral. Special thanks go out to Moreschi, Dougweller and Frank for nominating me, and I will try to take everyone's comments on board. Thanks again for your participation. I am currently concentrating my efforts on the Wikification WikiProject. It's fun! Please visit the project and wikify a few articles to help clear the backlog. If you can recruit some more participants, then even better. Apologies if you don't like RfA thankspam, this message was delivered by a bot which can't tell whether you want it or not. Feel free to remove it. Itsmejudith (talk), 22:44, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Denbot (talk) 22:44, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Dead, dead, dead redirected to British cuisine?

Hi Goodmorningworld, could you explain the above redirect? If its a joke then hahaha but it should be deleted as not being encyclopedic. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Delete away, I don't care. By the way, you commented in my section at Giano's RfC, which is against the rules for that page, so I moved your comment off to the Talk page.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 14:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I noticed other people doing it so I thought it was OK. Thanks for moving it. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

“Others’ comments”

I didn't edit your comments. But if citing the guideline floats your boat, here are some helpful tit-bits from the same page you linked:

• “The purpose of a Misplaced Pages talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page”
• “Keep on topic”
• “Start new topics at the bottom of the page”
• “Make a new heading for a new topic”
• “Create subsections if helpful”

And the guideline explicitly permits “deleting material not relevant to improving the article,” so perhaps I should just have zapped your comment. —Michael Z. 2009-02-02 20:34 z

Michael Z., what you did gave any reader of the page who had not seen the previous version the impression that the new level section 2 header was placed by me, therefore you were in the wrong. You could have included a parenthesis like "I've inserted a new section header, I hope you don't mind – feel free to revert", which is what most editors would have done. Yes it was thread drift but in my opinion not a reason to fly off the handle as you did (implying that I was "whining", claiming that I wasn't showing "a bit of respect for professional design and development".) Both of these comments as well as your edit summary could be seen as uncivil, but I'm not a stickler for civility. Therefore I have taken no action in regards to them. You voiced harsh criticism of my comment on the page. That's fine, you're entitled, and I let you have the last word. Readers may decide whether or not it was justified.

Now give it a rest.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 20:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to sound harsh. But I felt you interrupted a thread which was trying to improve a controversial template, and your tone was not positive to begin with. I think it's great that Wikimedia has some funding to take usability seriously and make substantial changes, I strongly disagree with your comment and don't understand why you have a negative attitude about that project. It was irrelevant to the topic, except to throw a bad light on Wikimedia's global efforts while discouraging editors from their local work on usability.

There are places to talk about this stuff. Let's remove those comments from template talk:Fact, and move them to wherever. Either way, I'll give this a rest now. —Michael Z. 2009-02-02 21:21 z

David Talbott

Thank you for your appreciation. Editor Davesmith_au could just as well have provided at least cites to the criticism by Ashton, Rose and James, but evidently he was more interested in identifying Ben Ged Low as the producer of Talbott's second video documentary. Talbott's activities have, by and large, been below the radar of mainstream criticism (which critics mostly went on to other subjects after Velikovsky died in Nov. 1979) and most of the criticism occurred on Usenet's talk.origins (and also sci.skeptic) in mid-1990s, which many editors do not consider acceptible referencing, despite the high quality of the posters who criticized Talbott's notions in great quantitative detail; plus the fact that many of the posts are no longer archived at googlegroups.com. However, there is one 47 message thread from Oct. 1994 that makes for interesting reading when Talbott was trying to recruit interest in his Saturn Thesis on alt.history.what-if and talk.philosophy.misc: <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.history.what-if/browse_thread/thread/482cba0a730d4092?q=%22saturn+thesis%22>. At the same time "An Antidote to Dave Talbott's 'Saturn Thesis'" was posted on talk.origins, which Talbott ignored: <http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/cle/cle-talbott-antidote.txt>. Because of the ban on "original research", I do not see how a fatal criticsm of Talbott's Saturn Thesis can be added to Talbott's bio: In his book The Saturn Myth (1980), p. 342, n. 60, Talbott confronts Peter Jensen pointing out that the Babylonians recognized both the "Pole of the Equator" (which is Talbott's idee fixe vis a vis planet Saturn) and also the "Pole of the Ecliptic" (which has no meaning in Talbott's framework), whereupon Talbott remarks "I certainly cannot accept" that. Then he simply ignores this fact that is fatal to his model. You might also like to read my comments Saturday on ScienceApologist(Talk) where this is also discussed in an attempt to persuade Davesmith_au of his foolishness in defending Talbott. Phaedrus7 (talk) 21:06, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I did read those comments and enjoyed them. David Talbott is on my watchlist now and I'll be on the lokout for tendentious edits.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 21:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Civility and Sarcasm

GMW...I don't think a debate over the above topic is sensible in the middle of a WQA incident - it only serves to show some editors that they a) have done nothing wrong and b) that they need not reply and c) serves to weaken points already made in the WQA itself.

When I look at behavior, I look at two main points: is it mean to demean another, and is it meant to inhibit additional editing. Thus, "you're stupid" and "you're the stupidest editor ever so stop" mean two very different things - the first is an insult, the second is an insult and an attempt to dissuade future editing.

Additionally, both of the main points have their own sliding scale based on specific and non-specific. The "specific" involve what I would consider those that tend fall in the definition of hatred: racism, sexism, anti-religious, etc. The non-specific would be those like "asshole" and "moron".

Sarcasm (although I believe it appears in a guideline, and not a policy) can be used in both columns. For example, "...oh yes, we'll accept your edits on this article because you are obviously the most uniquely brilliant Christian editor of all things Jewish, NOT!" This would be the use of sarcasm, and hits both religious grounds, and does indeed attempt to dissuade further editing. This, of course, is a minor example but I think it shows the point.

I could pull out a whole whack of examples from the WQA to show where sarcasm was used in a similar manner to dissuade editing, but I'm sure you can find them yourself.

Maybe I'm off base expecting people to treat others fairly, but I don't believe the entire series of transgressions in that WQA require any templating/warning, more of a slight degree of contrition and a stoppage of the behaviour. Sure, one editor is kinda milking it, but that behaviour is a consequance of a percieved lack of action. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 13:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi BMW, you are welcome on my Talk page! :-D

I'll get to your well-stated points in a minute, but first I want to issue a death threat:

"BMW"… "junkyard"… "pressing"… geddit? Aaaaa hahaha hahaa haaa! I kills myself sometimes, I tell ya!

Now to your points. You argue well, but I think you are wrong. Very wrong, in fact – so wrong, I doubt I can bring you around to my point of view. However, I'll try.

If you think that keeping the WQA threads launched by Thunderbird2 open will result in the outcome you desire, namely that Greg L, Headbomb and Fnagaton show "contrition", you are sorely mistaken. The only thing that will happen is that some of the scum-sucking bottom feeders, I mean annoying busybodies, that infest the dramah boardz will discover the thread and inflame the situation more. (In the meantime, I note to my dismay that you canvassed for one of Misplaced Pages's most block-happy admins to weigh in on your side, and she has; bad idea.)

The thing is, with what little knowledge I have of the targets of the Wikiquette alert, it will be a cold day in hell before they do what you request, namely express contrition. Greg L, to take him as an example, is a straight shooter who can be blunt to the point of gruffness and even, sometimes, ridicule. But does he wield sarcasm as a club in a content dispute, to force an open debate towards his aims? Generally, no. (Truth be told, I've seen him do that, once, and I let him know that I was not in agreement.)

What he will do is, after a debate has been settled by consensus and if one or a few editors try to stand in the way of the consensus by incessant filibustering (I believe Wikispeak for this is "Climbing the Reichstag in a Spiderman Suit"), he will tell them to cut the crap. I approve of this. Not allowing sarcasm under this circumstance would unduly restrict the range of expression and turn us into a bunch of sissies who speak in mincing tones all the time. Do we want that to happen? Suppressing healthy aggression ends up pushing these normal impulses underground where they fester and eventually erupt in ugly ways.

I've said this before but it bears repeating: much worse than the occasional rudeness is the harm done on Misplaced Pages every day by the ethnic haters, the religious bigots, the laser-guided single-purpose accounts, the insane Wikilawyers and the dramamongers, even especially if they manage to stick to the letter of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 18:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply (and joke!). You'll note that I recused myself from the situation, mostly because the best part about banging your head on the wall is how good it feels when you stop. I agree that I involved (not canvassed) a second set of eyes, who politley tried to "warn" (non-template) the users in question on both sides, which is fair. I feel was 100% right in this WQA situation, and yet nobody was 100% wrong, and I tried to bring the sides together, unsuccessfully. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 20:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Mmkay… I know the feeling, sorta like inserting yourself into the middle of a bar fight and the ER doctor asking you afterward, What were you thinking? By the way, I am concerned that I may have infected you with my dangerous subversive thoughts: . Tsk, tsk.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 20:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)