Talk:Tina Turner: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 07:35, 15 February 2009 editRossrs (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers34,076 edits →Lead section issues: a couple of ideas← Previous edit		Revision as of 08:10, 15 February 2009 edit undoChildofMidnight (talk \| contribs)43,041 edits commentNext edit →
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	::] - "Alison Krauss (born July 23, 1971 in Decatur, Illinois) is an American bluegrass-country singer and fiddler. "		::] - "Alison Krauss (born July 23, 1971 in Decatur, Illinois) is an American bluegrass-country singer and fiddler. "
	::] - "Frank Vincent Zappa (December 21, 1940 – December 4, 1993) was an American composer, electric guitarist, record producer, and film director."		::] - "Frank Vincent Zappa (December 21, 1940 – December 4, 1993) was an American composer, electric guitarist, record producer, and film director."

			:::If I can interject here just to point out that many of these leads are also crap. Just to give a few examples, Gwen Stefani doesn't even mention the style of music she performs. Zappa's doesn't hint at his significance. Mayer's is utterly worthless and doesn't even mention that he's a songwriter. Many of them are also misleading and inaccurate. Celine Dion is an actress? Kate Bush is a record producer? Janet Jackson's lead doesn't even mention her acting when in fact she has actually done some. Michael Jackson is a businessman? Those leads are HORRIFIC!!! They need to be fixed. Whoever is designating them as GA, if you are to believed, is totally incompetent or has their head in their ass. This is a classic case of "other stuff exists" properly applied. Just because other article have crappy leads doesn't mean this one has to be the same way. ] (]) 08:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

	::Just the cold, hard facts. I hope that is enough to demonstrate that by featured article standards, which are the standards we should generally be aiming for, the opening sentence is a very basic introduction, devoid of hyperbole. Please don't lose sight of the fact that we are not discussing the relative merits or accomplishments of specific artists, per the Quincy Jones comments below, rather establishing a long-held writing convention. Having said that, the people listed above as the subject of featured articles, are each notable in his or her own sphere, and each article ''could'' be subject to heralding their achievements in the first sentence - but we don't do that. It's nothing personal and is no disrespect to Turner's achievements. Your recent edits are glorifying Tina Turner, but they're not in step with Misplaced Pages's general method of conveying information. ] (]) 07:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)		::Just the cold, hard facts. I hope that is enough to demonstrate that by featured article standards, which are the standards we should generally be aiming for, the opening sentence is a very basic introduction, devoid of hyperbole. Please don't lose sight of the fact that we are not discussing the relative merits or accomplishments of specific artists, per the Quincy Jones comments below, rather establishing a long-held writing convention. Having said that, the people listed above as the subject of featured articles, are each notable in his or her own sphere, and each article ''could'' be subject to heralding their achievements in the first sentence - but we don't do that. It's nothing personal and is no disrespect to Turner's achievements. Your recent edits are glorifying Tina Turner, but they're not in step with Misplaced Pages's general method of conveying information. ] (]) 07:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

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Goldeneye

This section of the article needs to be cleaned up. "Tina looking gorgeous" and whatnot is not my version of neutral point of view... 77.110.48.71 (talk) 09:00, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Dates? Tina 's marriage to Ike Turner

On Ike's wiki page it says 62-78. I think it also says 62-78 on imdb. Do we have concrete confirmed marriage dates? Tina married Ike in Mexcio, but he was still legally married in US to Lorraine Taylor, so did Tina have 2 remarry him? _Lilkunta 17:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

"Tina Tawanda!!! AHH!! :) is the top-selling solo act in music history."

Actually, that's Michael Jackson or Elvis Presley (most commonly awarded to Michael Jackson). Who the hell writes this incorrect crap? And where is the source for that claim? I'm rather sure that Janet Jackson has also outsold Tina Turner, as has Celine Dion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.124.78.90 (talk) 09:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Check the sources dumb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.11.102.61 (talk) 00:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Selected filmography

As per Misplaced Pages is not a collection of lists, I have reduced the "Filmography" section to just the films that have Wiki articles, and renamed it to "Selected filmography" ... people can click the IMDb External link at the end of the article to see the subject's full filmography with links to information about each of their films.

I have also used ] tags for the years of the films, something that Some Other Editors do not appear to understand, since they seem to think that just linking ] somehow has encyclopedic value.

Anonymous edits without comments may be reverted by anyone.

I am placing this boilerplate message on this Discussion page before I actually make the changes, so that I can just put "see Discussion page" in the edit summary, and hopefully not have my edit summarily reverted as vandalism by Some Other Editor.

Janet outselling Tina Turner? Don't make me laugh. She has sold more concert tickets than any other woman and most men in history! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.36.133.35 (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Race

Why do you guys have her as african american? are you doing the one drop rule. She is 3/4 Native American and 1/4 Black. She is not full black—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.48.89 (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2007

If you have a citation from a reliable source for that, feel free to change the article to match while adding the citation. —Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 01:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Black is her social racial identity. She was socialized as Black as were her recent ancestors. Black isn't an actual bloodline. It's a label, an identity and she's been known as nothing less than for the span of her career. She's Black; African-American with a multi-ethnic/racial heritage. Relir 22:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Most African Americans have some Indian ancestry. Slave breeding began in the 1790s, and many of the original slave mothers were Indians. After emancipation, many freed slaves became members of Indian tribes. A person's ancestry can be less than 25% African (the rest being a mix of Indian, White, and Chinese), and will be called African American. However, if she has three grandparents who were considered Indian, then she would be considered Indian. — Randall Bart 19:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Tina participated in the series African American Lives 2 program that aired on PBS and she found out that she has no Native American ancestry, although she and her family always believed that they did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.3.222 (talk) 05:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The previous commentator is absolutely right. Tina Turner found out that she had no Native American ancestry in the series African American Lives 2. They also pointed out that most African Americans do not, in fact, have Native American ancestry (although they like to believe so). Actually, African Americans are much more likely to have European ancestors. The host of the program discovered that he was 50% European! Drumdiva (talk) 17:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

For sure Tina Turner is the top-selling solo act of all time.

tina turner has sold more concert tickets than any other performer there is, MORE THAN MADONNA,CHER,ELTON JHON,BRIAN ADMAMS,MICHEL JACKSON AND JANET JACKSON, ETC...it was stated during an interview at the canada AM.the video of the interview is avalable on youtube. she also holds the record of drawing the biggest paying audience to a one night concert alone.

That does not make her the biggest selling solo artist of all time. Sales is based an 'record' sales, and even if the 150 million is correct, it is way off the known figures for any of many other solo artists, male and female. Refer List of best-selling music artists. Stop adding this falsehood to the article. As for biggest selling concert artist, also probably not true, so a reference is required, or it should be removed. I believe that worldwide, this title belongs to the Rolling Stones, and probably in the USA it is her, but that is for one country only. Maggott2000 22:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I have been through 1,000+ net sites, and there is little data on overall sales. Those I did find rane from 50m to 66m. Nothing like the 150 million reported. I have linked to the two highest found. Most others say 50m. Please note that the linking to List of best-selling music artists as a reference is not allowed as considered a non verified source. Also, the information was wrong on that page also, so amended to suit. Maggott2000 00:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reversed the following comments "biggest female artist in Europe". The preceeding statement to this does NOT make her the biggest, nor is she as per above. Removed "biggest solo act of all time". Again not true as per list of best selling artists. Removed (not including sales from Ike and Tina Revue) as it already specifies from 1984 onwards. Maggott2000 01:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Total sales of 150 million

I have removd this for the following reasons. That as a solo artist she sold 60 million, then this means that prior to her solo career she would have had to sell 90 million. Within RIAA, there are no creditations for any of the earlier albums, so it is not even remotely possible to have been achieveable without sales in the American market. It should also be noted that if 90 million was achieved, Ike and Tina Turner would have been one of the biggest sellers of the 60/s and 70's. Also not possible Maggott2000 20:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Minor clean up

After fixing some small details, I went for a minor clean up. All picture headings were in bold type (no other Wikipage has that) and there were a few POV statements. --Soetermans 20:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Albums sales data

The data showing is neither referenced or accurate. Should some detail be found, then it should be added. "Foreign Affair" said 10m, ref says 6m. "Private Dancer" only 2 sources say 20m, all others say 10 - 11 million only. "All the Best" says 5m, but was not a best selling album in 2004 or 2005 (Refer UWC ). "Break Every Rule" says 15m. Sold 3m in the US, 400,000 in Germany, and 600,000 in the UK. these being the three largest markets (and Japan, but foreign sales are not big there), it is not even plausable to have sold this amount of albums sales worldwide. Maggott2000 04:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

180 million in sales

This source says that Tina Turner sold 180 million albums worldwide, this is a verifiable sourcethe information was taken from her own biography. If somebody disagree please leave a comment in my talk page. Salmoria 2 july 2007(UTC)

It is a verifiable source. I do not consider it realistic, but[REDACTED] is not about truth, it is about verifiable sources. One could debate that the authors of the article are not subject matter experts in this field, as they are technical writers, but you can argue that for nearly all referencing. Maggott2000 19:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Top Forties

From Pvt. Dancer...did Tina not have 6 Top 40 hits..... The questionable on is I Can't Stand The Rain..... I am sure it went Top 40 on the Hot 100 ....let me know....

I Can't Stand the Rain was not released as a single in the United States. -Beethovenrox —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beethovenrox (talk • contribs) 20:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

It DID NOT in the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.216.188.251 (talk) 21:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Simply album.jpg

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BetacommandBot 04:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Album sales

I have found many verifiable sources saying different things and numbers, i changed some sales in different albums using the highest numbers found related with the album sales. Salmoria 21:04 4 july (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Simply album.jpg

BetacommandBot 11:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

180million+5million

i eddited the 180m adding more 5 million of her "all the best" album, she had 180m by 2000 and "all the best" was released in 2005 and sold over 5 million copies. Salmoria 21:25 8 july 2007

Fair use rationale for Image:51QNTYA0ADL. AA240 all the.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:51QNTYA0ADL. AA240 all the.jpg

BetacommandBot 15:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

First son

According to this , her first son (with Raymond Hill) was born in 1958 not 1960, which would make more sense given the timing of her involvement with Ike. Ghmyrtle 11:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

On the name "Tina Turner"

This is a brain dump of the absolute truth as I know it. Much may be wrong, and I am not going to edit the page. It is probably slanted toward Ike's side of the story. It is provided as grounds for further research. I refer to Tina Turner as "Anna" to be unambiguous.

Ike created the name "Ike and Tina Revue" and named the singer in the act "Tina". There was at least one singer other than Anna who played the role of Tina on stage in the Ike and Tina Revue, before Ike married Anna. She wasn't called Tina Turner until after the marriage, and no one else was called Tina Turner, but Ike claims that she cannot use the stage name Tina Turner, because that was her name as part of the act and not her legal name. (She could call herself Anna Turner, if she wanted.)

Anna had walked out on the tour and would likely be found liable for damages. Ike was threatening to cease selling anything where she had royalties, and he had both that right and that temperment. She would need to build her career with a new name, while paying Ike for damages, while Ike is performing with a new woman named Tina Turner. This is why Anna gave up all her royalties for past work and her share of Ike's millions stashed all over the world in exchange for the name Tina Turner.— Randall Bart 20:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

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Comment

I like Tina but two things I wanted to point out. First, it states Tina is a singer, dancer, actress, songwriter, and entertainer in the intro. No need to list "entertainer" because if someone does all the aforementioned things that makes them an entertainer. Its like saying someone is a surgeon, and then saying they are also a "doctor". That's obvious. So if she's an entertainer, what exactly is she doing outside of the things already named? Secondly, it states the sales for "Private Dancer" are 10-11 million or 20 million. That's a big gap, and the article loses a little credibility with a statement like that. If sales can be given for other albums released by other artists, then how come they don't know if "PD" sold 10 million or 20 million. That's bologny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.192.176.30 (talk) 22:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Herbie Hancock's River: The Joni Letters Grammy noms

Shouldn't it be included in the article that Herbie Hancock's album to which Tina contributed earned several Grammy nominations this year (50th Annual Grammy Awards), including Album of the Year, and that Tina is cited among the featured artists in this particular nomination? See reference http://www.grammy.com/GRAMMY_Awards/50th_Show/list.aspx

- Lila, in December 13th, 2007.

This doesnt go under this category but does fit the grammy information. Tina Turner DID NOT win four grammy awards in 1985 and she IS NOT a winner of 8 grammies (unless you count We Are the World and Princes Trust and then she would be a 10 time grammy winner). Tina won best rock vocal, best pop, and record of the year (that she shared with Terry Britten). SONG OF THE YEAR was not a win for her. It was a win for the songwriters. I wish someone would correct this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.120.129.225 (talk) 03:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Now, it's actually a win! It won the Grammy for Best Album of the year! Please, that IS worthy of mentioning in the article. Turner was one of the featured artists in the best album of 2007! - Lila, in February 11th, 2008.

I agree. Someone should add that Tina has won a Grammy! It is one of the most important awards in the music business, and Tina hasn't won one since 1988! Check out the official Grammy Award Winners Database for the reference:

Ike's Comments about Tina

I just heard a reairing of an interview with Ike Turner from the 1990s on Fresh Air and he claims that Tina Turner's real name is Nell something. He also says that they were never officially married at all, it was what we would consider a common law marriage (my term, not his). It was interesting because Terry Gross was citing basic biographical information about Tina that he said wasn't true which is odd because they weren't any pieces of information that would reflect badly on him, he was just correcting what he thought was misinformation. Either this bio information is incorrect or his memory started fading when he got older.

--Nwjerseyliz (talk) 21:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

He claimed that her original name was not Anna Mae Bullock, but Martha Nell Bullock. Badagnani (talk) 01:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

State of Shock

The song, "State of Shock" was NOT recorded by Tina Turner and Mick Jagger, it was recorded by The Jacksons (with lead vocals by Michael Jackson) and Mick Jagger. I think that Tina Turner and Mick Jagger did do a song together, but the name escapes me now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.224.154 (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I re-read it. I guess I mis-read it. My apologies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.139.213.26 (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

TIna Turner and Mick Jagger did a duet of "State of Shock/It's ONly Rock N Roll" at Live Aid in July of 1985. -Beethovenrox —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beethovenrox (talk • contribs) 20:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect entry for Feb 10 2008

The entry for her appearance at the Grammys says Tina is 69. With a DoB of Nov 1939, she is only 68 until Nov 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.253.68.151 (talk) 05:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Successful good article nomination

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of February 15, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Pass

2. Factually accurate?: Pass

3. Broad in coverage?: Pass

4. Neutral point of view?: Pass

5. Article stability? Pass

6. Images?: Pass

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.Happy Editing, Dusti 20:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

well written it ain't! chronologically the article hops around all over the place & some of the facts are vague or missing all together (e.g. referencing a song but not naming it!), making it dificult for the reader to follow the biographical thread. i also think the expanded discography style makes the article unnecessarily bulky. all imho, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.14.22 (talk) 23:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree that the article is not well written. Much of it FEELS like there is a chronological structure, but more than once it backs up and re-states material that was already discussed (one example would be Tina performing at the Australian Rugby final in 1993). Furthermore there are numerous POV issues where the author expresses opinions about her performances. Plus several paragraphs begin with variations of "the new year began with..." which makes the article tedious to read. I have a powerful urge to re-write the whole thing, but my lack of knowledge regarding Tina Turner's life and career is holding me back. Sir Smedley (talk) 05:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree, this article sounds like it was written by someone whose life ambition is to chronicle Tina Turner's tour dates. Tedious is the right word for it. I couldn't get through enough to find out if there's any personal-interest info - where does she live now, etc. Does it even mention the Nichiren Buddism that she practices?70.20.197.37 (talk) 18:25, 21 October 2008 (UTC)Juggins

Tina Turner in African American Lives 2 on PBS

According to the DNA test results from the program, Tina Turner is of African, European (around 30%), and Native American (1%) descent. The information currently on the page is not correct. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

What African tribe is she related to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TorridTitan (talk • contribs) 18:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I do remember that her African ancestry could not be exactly pinpointed but it mentioned several locations in Africa. Also, I am not sure where HUD gets that she has any Navajo ancestry as she is from Tennessee and the Navajo live way out West. Unless one of her ancestors had lived in Arizona and later moved to Tennessee... It is highly unlikely she would have any Navajo ancestry. The program stated she was of 30% European ancestry and 1% Native American. Azalea pomp (talk) 06:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Tina and Frank Zappa

Tina Turner and "the Ikettes" were on the Frank Zappa albums "Over-nite sensation" and "Apostrophe (')". I have extracted this from another site:

"Tina Turner, born Annie Mae Bullock near Brownsville,TN began singing as a teen, and joined Ike Turner's touring show as an 18-year-old backup vocalist - two years later, Tina was the star of the show. In the Spring of '73, FZ was recording at Bolic Sound in Inglewood, CA - Ike and Tina Turner's studio. FZ: "I wanted to put some back-up singers on...and the road manager...said, 'Well, why don't you just use the Ikettes?' I said, 'I can get the Ikettes?' and he said 'Sure'...Ike Turner insisted that we pay these girls no more than $25 per song, because that's what he paid them...No matter how many hours it took." It's reported that Tina & The Ikettes are credited on the album as "Debbie", "Lynn", and "Susie Glover". Tina Turner provided vocal for Over-Nite Sensation and Apostrophe (')." K, t´hat was intresting....

Typographical error

There is an error that recurs twice in this entry.

Firstly, in the Contents:

"# 10 Retired

   * 10.1 2001-20003"

Note the extra digit "0" in the date 2003.

This is repeated in the main text of the article, below the heading "Retired":

"2001-20003 (Note the extra digit "0" is here again)

Over the next few years, she continued to occasional make public appearances and to collaborate with other musicians on recording projects. In 2001, Tennessee State Route 19 between Brownsville and Nutbush was named "Tina Turner Highway". In 2003, she teamed up with Phil Collins to record the song "Great Spirits" for the Disney film Brother Bear..."

1% Indian?

The section on Miss Turner's backgrounds states that a DNA test proved her to be 1% Indian, but the link provided doesn't say any such thing and I don't see how that's mathematically possible. Brendan Vox (talk) 20:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC) On the show African American Lives, Dr. Henry Louis Gates showed Ms. Turner that she was only 1% Native American, which could very well be a margin of error and mean that she has no Amerindian ancestry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.177.193 (talk) 05:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

In reality the odds are that the tests did not show her full native heritage. The tests are limited and are not reliable because they only go through some much of your DNA. Basically your great grandmother could be full blooded Native American but it won't show up in your children. Something they neglected to mention during the show.Mcelite (talk) 23:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It is true that these DNA tests do have a margin of error and Native American ancestry can show up as East Asian ancestry. But a person who truly has a American Indian grandparent generally would show between 15% to 35% Native American or possibly East Asian ancestry. A person can inherit 35% of their DNA admixture from one grandparent and 15% from another grandparent. Now if your great great great grandmother was part Native American, your admixture may not show up in the test. But if one takes this test and it says that you have no Native American ancestry, it is safe to say that it is true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.177.171 (talk) 06:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Tina Turner/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Opening assessment

This article currently does not meet the requirements for a good article. At present, it at least fails

1a: Well written: the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct
2a: it provides references to all sources of information
2b: at minimum, it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons.

Large blocks of content have been added with little or no citations to support listings of song chart performance, concert attendance and dates, and awards and gold/platinum records, little consistency in style and other issues. The new content consistently refers to her as "Tina", rather than "Tina Turner" or "Turner" as proscribed by guidelines. There are too many errors in linking, the use of quote marks vs. italics, and punctuation to enumerate. The prose is badly in need of copy editing, grammar clean up and POV removal. It simply needs a great deal of attention. I made an attempt to clean part of this up, but frankly, it was overwhelming. Wildhartlivie (talk) 07:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Good Lord, I see what you mean by errors...!!!

The article doesn't look good at all, looks completely neutral and its grammar is off the mark. No one has cited sources from any of the information. In the "early life" set, I had to change "Turner" to "Bullock" because she wasn't called "Tina Turner" until 1960, really. She was "Little Ann Bullock" when she first started recording and performing in nightclubs with Ike Turner in the late-fifties too. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 01:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was a little bit horrified. As it, it does not meet WP:GA standards. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I've shortened down the paragraphs, put them all in to "Subsequent solo success" because I just felt it didn't need all them paragraphs. Tina's article was really scary-looking. I was actually quite offended looking at the article. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 20:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Good work on cutting down the article BrothaTimothy. I did a bit of clean up last night and didn't realize how bad it was until I was in the thick of it. I did manage to correct the linking errors, the title formatting issues (song titles italicized instead of quoted), and the usage of Turner's first name. I also removed a bunch of POV content and added a few references but the article needs many, many more. I may have missed some things because the whole thing was just overwhelming. I think a lot of what is wrong with the article is the fact that most of the content (at least the latter material) is basically just chart rankings. A single is mentioned and then nearly every single chart ranking is mentioned afterward. Aside from being a dull read, this content should probably be put in chart form and 86'ed from the article itself unless the single hit #1. There's also some dead reference links in there that probably should not be used as references to begin with (Turner's now seemingly defunct international fan club site). I think if a few of us work on it and add sources, we can bring it up to speed. Pinkadelica 02:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

That's a very good idea. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 03:31, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with everything Pinkadelica said. Kudos, good work, yay! Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Lead section issues

A few changes were made to the lead of the article in recent weeks that raised some issue with how the lead is cited and worded. An editor placed an uncited paragraph reciting a list of concert points with no citations, and when I looked through the lead, I realized that some of the citations did not in fact support the sentence to which it was included, some of the cites were to a "tinaturner-fanbase" website, and one, which referenced Turner's legs, was cited to the White House, and since the recent revamping of the White House website, was not available for checking. These are the actual changes I made to the lead:

To begin these are the actual changes in text that were made in the revision I made:

1. Tina Turner (born Anna Mae Bullock, November 26, 1939) is ~~an eight time Grammy Award American singer.~~ an American singer and actress. (The wording of "eight time Grammy Award" is discouraged, and in fact, will be challenged in good article and featured article reviews to have a lead sentence using wording like "*** Award-winning". It isn't used in featured articles for an Academy Award winner, nor will it be accepted for a musician/singer. This is basic criteria, and most GA/FA reviewers consider it POV.)

2. She is known worldwide for her energetic stage presence, powerful vocals, ~~ground-breaking concerts, as well as for her long, well-proportioned legs that are considered the most famous in show business.~~ career longevity, and widespread appeal. (One of the citations used to support the last portion of the original statement was from a fanclub site - those are not allowable as reliable sources. The legs description is supported by a dead reference that had no real basis in addressing the fame of a singer's legs, and is not encyclopedic. Again, both issues that are challenged in a GA/FA review. Meanwhile, a lead section is supposed to reflect the rest of the article - her legs are not mentioned at any other point in the article, so it does not support inclusion in the lead. That it was removed was based on the unsupported claim of worldwide fame with what would have to be new personal interpretation of a source no longer available by saying her legs "were noted specifically as she was honored by President George W. Bush." One cannot know if that was what it said, or whether it was part of a supplied press release or someone else's interpretation. That's because the claim cannot be verified anymore. One can't say it was part of his honor, because you cannot check it. The citations I included for the two portions I included in the sentence are actually supported by reliable sources.)

3. Turner's world tour Break Every Rule Tour had record breaking ticket sales and was attended by over four million fans. Turner also beat out The Rolling Stones by touring Europe during her sold out Foreign Affair Tour in 1990 and playing to four million people in just six months. Her 1996 Wildest Dreams Tour was performed to 3.5 million fans. In the year 2000 she launched her Twenty Four Seven Tour that packed stadiums all over the world, it was the highest grossing tour of the year, and is the 5th biggest grossing tour in America ever.

This section was struck because it is not sourced in the lead. The concerts are covered, with all of these facts, in the body of the article, and meanwhile, the basics of this are covered more generally in the preceeding paragraph. Also, this borders on peacockery.

Citations that were updated or removed were because they were not reliable, duplicated at least once at the end of one sentence. The actual citations were updated where necessary, removed from statements which weren't supported by the cites stuck in, and a couple were removed because they were essentially from the same press release from sites mirroring the original. Appropriate citations were combined.

An editor, who hasn't previously worked on cleaning the mess that existed last fall and threatened the GA status has reverted this section more than once, removing all these updates and corrections to incorrect citations. It would be helpful for others to comment on this. The difference between the lead changes can be seen here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 10:17, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Wildhartlivie's comments, but despite this, I think the lede section isn't what it could be. It's all praise, and I don't deny Turner has earned every bit of it, but there's no mention of the real hardships she dealt with - leaving her marriage with nothing and building an astonishing career, for example. It's all about her awards, her status etc etc. I think it sells Turner short. I'm glad the "award-wining" thing is gone from the first sentence. WP:MOSBIO advocates that the first sentence is to establish identity and notability. Turner is notable as a singer and actor. She's not specifically notable as a multiple Grammy Award winner. This is not what defines her. Further, she has won a multitude of awards, and it's not appropriate to single out the Grammy as the ultimate prize. It may or may not be the thing she values most, or the world values most, but that's not for us to say. It's one of many awards.

I do not like at all - "Turner has been often referred as "the truest rock diva of all," "soul's first real diva," "The most dynamic female soul singer in the history of the music," and "one of soul music's most incendiary performers."" It's overkill. She hasn't often been referred to as these particular quotes. She's often - as all successful entertainers are - spoken of in glowing terms and with praise. You could pick a few quotes about any performer and stick them in the the lede sections of their articles, without context. It's so easy to do as to render them meaningless. A balanced discussion in the article would be fine, but this looks a bit like a press release. It's not part of a summary from the article itself, and that is the main obective of the lede section - to summarize the article. Rossrs (talk) 15:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Right now the lead sentence for Tina Turner, one of the most honored, successful, and popular recording artists of all times says:

"Tina Turner (born Anna Mae Bullock, November 26, 1939) is an American singer and actress."

This is an awful lead sentence. It tells you the bare minimum about her or her career, and it needs to be fixed. This intro sentence could be used for every contestant on this season's American Idol. It doesn't tell you anything significant or meaningful or important or notable, other than her profession. It's crap. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

But that is the whole point - it's not meant to tell anything more than the very basics. It's not crap. It's accurate, it's specific and it complies with WP:MOSBIO and with the standards that are applied in WP:GA and WP:FA reviews. Describing her as an icon in the first sentence is unacceptable, and it's more awful than mere awful. It's excrutiating. It's an unsupported point of view. It's not the first thing that must be said about her as part of a defining statement. All that is needed is who she is and what she does. Simple. "Icon" does not belong anywhere, let alone in the first sentence. Please have a look at some other Misplaced Pages:Featured articles, such as :

Michael Jackson - "Michael Joseph Jackson (born August 29, 1958) is an American recording artist, entertainer, and businessman."

Janet Jackson - "Janet Damita Jo Jackson (born May 16, 1966) is an American recording artist and entertainer."

Kylie Minogue - "Kylie Ann Minogue, OBE, (born 28 May 1968), is an Australian pop singer-songwriter and occasional actress."

Mariah Carey - "Mariah Carey (born March 27, 1970) is an American singer-songwriter, record producer and actress. "

Celine Dion - "Céline Marie Claudette Dion, CC, OQ ( /seɪlɪn dɪɒn/ (help·info)) (born March 30, 1968 in Charlemagne, Quebec) is a Canadian singer, songwriter, and actress."

Kate Bush - "Kate Bush (born Catherine Bush on 30 July 1958) is an English singer-songwriter, musician and record producer."

John Mayer - "John Clayton Mayer (pronounced /ˈmeɪ.ər/ MAY-ər; born October 16, 1977) is an American musician. "

Gwen Stefani - "Gwen Renée Stefani (pronounced /ˈgwɛn stɛˈfɑːni/; born October 3, 1969) is an American recording artist and fashion designer. "

Alison Krauss - "Alison Krauss (born July 23, 1971 in Decatur, Illinois) is an American bluegrass-country singer and fiddler. "

Frank Zappa - "Frank Vincent Zappa (December 21, 1940 – December 4, 1993) was an American composer, electric guitarist, record producer, and film director."

If I can interject here just to point out that many of these leads are also crap. Just to give a few examples, Gwen Stefani doesn't even mention the style of music she performs. Zappa's doesn't hint at his significance. Mayer's is utterly worthless and doesn't even mention that he's a songwriter. Many of them are also misleading and inaccurate. Celine Dion is an actress? Kate Bush is a record producer? Janet Jackson's lead doesn't even mention her acting when in fact she has actually done some. Michael Jackson is a businessman? Those leads are HORRIFIC!!! They need to be fixed. Whoever is designating them as GA, if you are to believed, is totally incompetent or has their head in their ass. This is a classic case of "other stuff exists" properly applied. Just because other article have crappy leads doesn't mean this one has to be the same way. ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Just the cold, hard facts. I hope that is enough to demonstrate that by featured article standards, which are the standards we should generally be aiming for, the opening sentence is a very basic introduction, devoid of hyperbole. Please don't lose sight of the fact that we are not discussing the relative merits or accomplishments of specific artists, per the Quincy Jones comments below, rather establishing a long-held writing convention. Having said that, the people listed above as the subject of featured articles, are each notable in his or her own sphere, and each article could be subject to heralding their achievements in the first sentence - but we don't do that. It's nothing personal and is no disrespect to Turner's achievements. Your recent edits are glorifying Tina Turner, but they're not in step with Misplaced Pages's general method of conveying information. Rossrs (talk) 07:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

So this is about whether or not "Grammy Award-winning singer and actress" should be in the lede, correct? I've looked over a few more articles on musicians and I think the best example to go by is Quincy Jones. Though not a singer, Jones has an incredibly varied and long career in music, television and film and has won 27 Grammys in total. The lede section of his article does not state that he is Grammy Award winning yet the following sentence does state this fact (same as the current state of the Turner article). There's a few more examples such as Georg Solti who has won 38 Grammys (the most won ever), U2 who have won 22 Grammys and Michael Jackson who has won 13. None of the articles on these obviously accomplished musicians have the phrase "Grammy Award winning" in their ledes. An artist's achievements don't have to be noted in the very first lede sentence and mentioning them second sentence doesn't somehow diminish their accomplishments. We have an entire lede to establish the person or persons accomplishments and why they are notable. I do happen to be a fan of Turner's, but at the same time, this isn't the venue to celebrate her greatness and talent. Her accomplishments and awards can stand on their own merit and we can do without the POV which I personally know is overdone in this particular article from first hand experience. Pinkadelica 04:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Quincy Jones is a peon compared to Tina. He should not be mentioned in the same sentence with her.

Don't worry, I reorganized and made the basic improvements that were needed in the introduction. Now some of the details need to be relocated to the appropriate sections and summarized in the introduction. Her tour history, for example, should be described instead of detailing her latest tour. Other specific content should also be relocated to the appropriate section and generalized in the introduction. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Saying that Jones is a peon compare to Turner is your POV, not a fact. The fact of the matter remains that both are accomplished in their chosen fields and Jones himself (despite your opinion on him) has won 19 more Grammys than Turner and that fact is still not mentioned in his article lede. That was actually the point of the examples, not a comparison of two's musical talents and who is superior. As for the current version of the article, saying the Turner is an icon without providing a reliable source to back up that claim is just begging for a removal. Claims like that need to be backed up and seeing as this is a BLP, I'd say a source is needed ASAP. I'm already tiring of this back and forth and since I see the POV is overwhelming here, I'll let others weigh in to determine the most neutral wording needed. Pinkadelica 07:29, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The most neutral wording for the first sentence - "Tina Turner (born Anna Mae Bullock, November 26, 1939) is an American singer and actress." - The End.

The rest of the lede section - I suggest a summary of the article in line with WP:LEAD. Not a fanfare to precede it, which is all we currently have. That would be nice. Rossrs (talk) 07:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

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