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File:Early Holocene.png

Distribution of land and sea was different in the early Holocene than today. The coasts of Meditteranean were not the same. The most northern point of the Adriatic Sea coast was somewhere in the centre of today's Adriatic Sea - it was at least a half smaller. Zenanarh (talk) 08:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I just used a pre-made template of modern Europe Hxseek (talk) 08:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

File:HaplogroupI2.png

Hi Hxseek! Your map about the distribution of Haplogroup I2 is fine, but I think it is a map only of I2a1 subclade, which is typical of western South Slavs. Please, see the map: .

There are still 2 subclades, which are not included in the map.

- I2a2 accounts for approximately 40% of all patrilines among the Sardinians. Please, see the map:

- I2b1 is closely correlated to that of Haplogroup I1, except in Fennoscandia, which suggests that it was probably harbored by at least one of the Paleolithic refuge populations that also harbored Haplogroup I1. Please, see the map: .

If it would be posible, please improve your map with this additional info. Thank you! Jingby (talk) 14:42, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Its just a map of I2a1Hxseek (talk) 22:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Hxseek do you mind helping me redraw R1b, R1a, J, J2 maps using your program...either you draw them or tell me what program you are using...Drawing with with Adobe 3 is not fun :) Cadenas2008 (talk) 06:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Hxseek, can you please, create a map about the distribution of E1b1b in Europe on the basis of this one: ? Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%) – Cruciani et al. (2007)

Regards. Jingby (talk) 09:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Yep, working on it Hxseek (talk) 21:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Maps

Thanks Hxseek

Do you have a private email? I want to ask you a question. I agree with you on I2 I was just drawing general maps. the center of I2 imo is the Dinaric mountains which are pretty much within historical Dalmatia.

Those maps should be redone on a regular basis & its better if we unifrom the design (aslong as you make them public, I don't want you to sue me when I publish them lol). I like the desgin you made, so we can choose that. My main goal is to have near-perfect maps on all haplogroups. Lets start with I, R1a & R1b, if you have free time we can make it standard. Its takes me long hours to make those manual maps so you will do everybody a big favor :) Cadenas2008 (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

Its best if all the maps to have the same design. Thats why I want all the maps redone (even if accurate) R1a as of now is okay, but can be improved. The main thing is that all maps on Misplaced Pages genetics should have the same design it makes reading the map much smoother (I like your design). Ofcourse, only if you are interested! Cadenas2008 (talk) 00:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi! Some maps on your attention: South East Europe History maps index. Regards. Jingby (talk) 14:19, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Maps

1. I don't know about adding all the members of the Marcomannic Confederacy. If I add them, them perhaps I'll also have to add other "barbarian" tribes. I think it's better to leave the map more simplified.

2. I don't import templates from other maps, I create them myself. I just search on Google Images for a good physical map of the area I'm interested in and draw upon it to recreate the physical map in my graphics program (I use Inkscape).

3. I noticed your interest in the history of Medieval Europe and particulary the Balkan region during the migrations period. I'm also captivated by this topic and I would really want to know how more about the ethnogenesis of the Balkan peoples, the Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Albanians in particular. I find it a mistery how all the Latin-speaking population South of the Danube (and north of the Jirecek line) simply vanished after the early 7th century. Were they all absorbed by the Slavs and are now an important part in the genetic heritage of the Bulgarians and Serbs? Have they crossed the Danube and formed the Proto-Romanian population? (I don't believe in the Romanian communist theories of Daco-Roman continuity north of the Danube after 270). About the Albanians, I don't really trust the theory saying they are the ancestors of a somehow lost Illyrian tribe that went unnoticed by the Romans for 700 years and escaped Romanization. I think it's more likely they are the ancestors of the Carpians that invaded the East Roman Empire in the 4th and 5th centuries.

Kind regards,

Andrei

Andrei nacu (talk) 04:49, 03 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello, probably you are that Latins. In Greece there are still some 100.000 Aroumenians. The Dalmatian coast were spoken 2-3 Latin languages, until the 16th century. In Bosnia, Istria, etc there were even 1-200 years ago small some Latin speakers. According to the various Crusader accounts (few sentences per dozens of accounts) Thessaloniki, the 2nd Bulgarian Tzardom was as much Vlach as Bulgar. But your official history gave it to the Bulgars to pursue the Transylvanian theory.. That does not mean that were no Latins in the Carpathians, like many mentioned in Salzburg history, there are names like Wels, Welsh also in Austria, there are Rhetoromans in Switzerland, but probably the Romanian main stream was in the South. Unfortunately there is no reference for Latins by Byzantines, since for them that was the normal and the different other to be mentioned. --Vargatamas (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Thracian attestation of the names

I have to review the literature again but my memory is fairly clear: I don't recall the last two being attested as Thracian, and the forms do not look particularly Thracan (the endings -astus and -itus are not common Thracian endings, and I'm not sure if any names considered Thracian have such endings, I will make a list of Thracian anthroponyms soon for people's easy reference noting the common endings). Perbundos looks more likely to be Thracian. The names may be Celtic, Scythian, so many possibilities as you know. If none of the names are attested as Thracian---if the endings are not Thracian---then it would be safe to say they are probably not Thracian. A from L.A. (talk) 21:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Maps

Yes, I draw my maps from scratch. For example, for this map: http://en.wikipedia.org/File:2008_South_Ossetia_war.svg I used this map for the physical features: http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Caucasus_region_1994.jpg.

Andrei nacu (talk) 11:44, 04 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I enjoyed reading your informative comments in the Slav/Vlach/Albanian debate. You seem to have a special interest (and expertise) in this topic. Are you from the Balkans? Do you have expert knoeledge in the field? PS: Do you like the map Andrei and I are working on? EraNavigator (talk) 18:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Where in Yugoslavia, or rather ex-Yugoslavia or should I call it Illyria? (PS: it's a shame the country split up - it's been nothing but a disaster for all its inhabitants. It was exceptionally well-run under Tito and the only Communist country with open borders. The absurdity is that now that they've finished fighting each other to a standstiil, they will all join the EU - thus again belonging to the same politico-economic unit!). I'm Italo-British, my family is from Bologna, N. Italy, but we moved to London when I was a small child. I'm also an amateur - but I like to get my facts right, unlike too many Wiki contributors. Have you written any articles for Wiki? EraNavigator (talk) 22:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

My articles are listed on my user page. They are mainly on Roman military history. My biggest articles are Roman auxiliaries and Late Roman army. I got involved because I was appalled at the quality of many of the Roman articles (most didn't even spell Latin words correctly) and also because I wanted to hone my research/writing skills, as I hope to progress into being an real author, not just a Wiki editor. I will be reading your Avars and Antes articles asap, as I find barbarian peoples irresistably interesting. Good luck on your Slav ethnogenesis research. In view of the discussion we've just had, it's a bit like chasing the unicorn! It would help if you can read the indigenous literature. Can you speak Serbo-Croat? EraNavigator (talk) 22:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

That's always interested me: how close are the Slav languages? Are they like Italian and Spanish i.e. quasi- mutually intelligible? Could you follow a Bulgarian or a Slovene or indeed a Russian? PS: I see from your user page that you're heavily into haplogroups - are these indicators really any use? EraNavigator (talk) 22:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

It was really interesting to learn more about the debates concerning the ethnogenesis of the Balkan peoples and about the late antiquity and early medieval history of the region. I only started to read on this subject three weeks ago and I wannt to make some more on-topic research. It's so frustrating that I don't always have time to do what I enjoy most (map making, history and learning foreign languages)! About Bulgarian and Macedonian, I've read somewhere that some Macedonians consider their language to be the true Bulgarian, while claiming modern Bulgarian is be too influenced by Turkish. Is this true?

You are most welcome to use any of my templates to create your own maps. Euratlas uses the Mercator projection for their maps (have you noticed how small Anatolia is compared to Britain?) which doesn't look so well. Inkscape is a wonderful tool for creating maps and vector images (SVG) are the future. I suspect that in about 5 years most maps on the Internet will be vectorized.

Cheers,

Andrei

Andrei nacu (talk) 00:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Balkans debate (resumed)

Check out my new post on Andrei's talk page. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 15:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Maps

You can simply download one of my maps, delete the text and other features you won't need and add your own elements (borders, names etc.). Unfortunately I haven't created any blank templates yet, but I'm currently working on a detailed blank physical map of Europe which is even more accurate than the one in the Roman Empire map. Please write me if you need more help.

Andrei nacu (talk) 18:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Balkans850.png

Thanks for uploading File:Balkans850.png. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Misplaced Pages:Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 02:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sasikiran (talk) 02:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Pannonian Croatia

Tommorrow my friend, I'm sick and can't sit in the front of my comp for more than a half hour. I didn't forget :) Zenanarh (talk) 22:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Liudevit escaped open fight a few times during 2nd serie of Furlanian breaks into Pannonian Croatia (820-822), then finally left Sisak before Furlanian army and escaped to the south to Srb on Una river, next year (823) he moved to the coast where he was killed.

This put Lower Pannonia into direct vasalage to the Franks. It was changed in 827, Pannonian duke Ratimir supported a Bulgarian duke Mortag in his successful campaign vs Franks. Syrmia was already in Bulgarian hands, Ratimir became a sort of Bulgarian vasal. In 828 and 829 the Franks were in war with the Bulgarians and Croats without success. Next time it was in 838, they attacked Ratimir and retook a part of territory. In 848 they got it all, they finally occupied eastern Slavonia and Syrmia. Next decencies Slavonia was under Frankish authority ruled by Slavonic dukes Pribina and Kocelj, today the mostly considered to be western Slavic dukes, possibly from Carantania, who were ruling around Balaton Lake and then spread to the Pannonian Croatia, also in wars with Dalmatian Croats during Dalmatian duke Iljko.

In 873 Lower Pannonia was ruled by the Great Moravian duke Svatopluk who initially resisted to the Franks. Pannonian Croatian duke Braslav wanted to secure himself from strong Svatopluk and allied with Franks against him. Svatopluk lost in 884, but brought the Hungarians into an area.

"Flight to the Serbs" section of Ljudevit Posavski article is a joke: Ljudevit didn't escape to the Serbs. N. Klaić proved that it was Croatian city Srb on Una river - a Croatian župa (Medieval Cro municipality), not Serbia or Serbs. There were no Serbs around. There's too much Serbian mythomania around, especially in Misplaced Pages as I can see. In DAI it was mentioned that Serbs settled in Dalmatia, which is used by Serbs to create a fake history. It's absurd since this particular "Dalmatia" mentioned in that paragraph of DAI was a territory in borders of Roman Dalmatia and not Medieval Dalmatia (also proved according to other details from the same paragraph). This Serbian settling of "Dalmatia" goes only for Raška and not a half of the WB, as Serbs usually like to present. Even Doclea was settled by the Docleats and Croats in the 9th century, according to Byzantine writer John Skylitzes who wrote it in the same age. Mihajlo Višević was a ruler of Croats in Doclea and Serbs in Raška, but Serbian historian Ćirković misinterpret it and concluded that Croats were just a tribe of the Serbs! It's unbelievable how many shaky Serbian quazi-theories got space in the international literacy, although proven to be wrong, while some other much better argumented and proved are treated as controversial! This is why Croatian editors (like me) avoid to change anything - too much work for nothing! Just losing nerves. It would be much easier to edit articles about some rare species of butterflies...  :( Zenanarh (talk) 10:27, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Borders of Dalmatian principality... must check it...

When you find some time read this: more or less a concesus in modern Croatian historiography . More deeply, more interesting by an Indian scientist

It happens when previously opponent theories are put together to a logical mosaic :)

It's interesting that autoctonous theory, like Mužić, only fits into story, giving only more information on some groups. Zenanarh (talk) 23:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, Docleats were neither Serbs nor Croats. Such names are political labels. As far as I know, Croats were based in northern Dalmatia. Little activity below Cetina. The Royal Frankish Annals also mention the Serb inhabitation of Dalmatia. To state that all of Dalmatia, southern Pannonia and Bosnia were inhabited by 'Croats' would be to propagate Croat mythomania, not unlike that which you accuse Serbs of . How did Klaic "prove" that Liutevid fled to the town of Srb, not 'the Serbs'. Afterall, it is hard to prove a historical account archaeologically , especially given that the account itself may be wrong. Hxseek (talk) 10:38, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

If the real Croats were a substratum of what would become Croatian ethnic group by time, then you cannot say that they were settled only in the northern Dalmatia. But first political unit with their name developed in the northern Dalmatia (ex Liburnia became region of Croatiae), that's sure. You know, the Glagolithic inscriptions are >95% Croatian heritage (1 found in Bulgaria, a few in the Black Sea area, Bohemia and thousands in Croatia in Chakavian). One found in the north (Baška tablet) and another in the south (Župa Dubrovačka near Dubrovnik), both from 10th, 11th century, both written in Chakavian Croatian, both written in the same Glagolithic style (so called - Triangular Glagolithic script)?!

Noone says that Docleats were Croats. It's not the point here. The point is that it was a part of Red Croatia (and that article is completely ridiculed in en.wiki with accent on Croatian nationalism!?). Skylitzes mentioned Croats and Docleats in Doclea, not Docleats = Croats! There's no doubt that story about the real Croats and the real Serbs is a story of small groups bearing the same names, while the most of Slavic population were simply Slavic people (speakers). For me there's no doubt that Medieval states bearing the names of these groups were just states bearing their names. Population of the Frankish Empire were all the Franks? No, of course, but their state had name of its rulers - the Franks. Completely same logic should be used to understand Cro and Serb political units.

Dalmatia in early Medieval was usually taken as wider geographical territory (Roman Dalmatia) by the Byzantines, Franks,... Raška was within that Dalmatia, that's why Serbian settlement in Dalmatia were mentioned. On the other side there are no any Serbian related remains in the territory of modern Dalmatia (3 times smaller), no archaeological, no linguistical, no cultural,... But zeal Serb mythomaniacs don't worry about it, so they concluded that a half of this smaller (modern) Dalmatia was settled by the Serbs!? Hxseek, it's a comedy, nothing related to science, believe me.

I'm not trying to replace one mythomania with another, don't worry. I've just lost motivation, same as a dozen of other Cro users in last 2 yrs who left en.wiki for the same reason, I can't see how to contribute here and save my health in the same time. Sad but true, in Croatia, en.wiki is popularly called Serbopedia, because of the history articles about the southern Dalmatian principalities, Bosnia, Montenegro (Montenegrins are completely blocked to edit their country related articles, like language stuff - in a lack of Serbian literacy under Ottomans, 19th cent. standardized Serbian borrowed a lot from Ijekavian Montenegrin and Ijekavian Croatian, now Serbs use it retrogradly to prove that Montenegrin is Serbian (!?) while Croatian is Serbo-Croatian (!?); in the same manner, they use Serbian authority over southern principalities in 13th century retrogradly to construct alleged previous Serbian settling of it),...

It doesn't matter, this is not my appeal for discussion, ignore it if you don't like it. Just a little emotional rescue. Zenanarh (talk) 13:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Difinitely, wellwe can at least try to keep it real. Yes, I referred to former province of Dalmatia, not Byzantine Dalmatia. I was talking about early times (c. 9 and 10th centuries), when i referred to Croatia'c root area in the north. I think the similarity going through Dalmatia which began in such early times was the result of the commonalities amongst the slav -speakers sharing a maritime culture, Roman influences, etc. I wouldn't say that back in the 11th century there was an wide-held idea of being a "Croat". I think Croatia later appropriated this Dalmatian culture as typically Croatian. However, its a retrograde thing. Such features were not excusively Croatian, but came to be predominantly Croatian over time. That's my theory. As for Red Croatia, I haven't read any western sources about it, at all. No one refers to the Dalmatian principalities as part of Red Croatia.

You should read a book called when ehtnicity did not matter in the Balkans, but J Fine. I've read snippets of it on google books. It deals with the issue of Croat identity.

PS: What does Skylitzes say about Croats and Docleats ?

Hxseek (talk) 00:28, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Montenegro in the sources

Older, especially Serbian historiography (Jovan Erdeljanović) treated Montenegrins as Serbs, even Croatian historian F. Šišić noted the Docleats as Serbs. But in the Byzantine sources from 11th and sources from Dubrovnik and Kotor, Montenegrin tribes were noted as an original ethnos, not Serbian, not Croatian. The same can be found later in the Turkish sources processed by B. Đurđev, H. Šabanović and N. Filipović.

Jovan Erdeljanović (Glas SAN XCVI, Beograd 1920) marked the Montenegrins as an ethnic group of the Serbian people. Once he wrote that they were Dinar Serbs (J. Erdeljević, Neke crte u formiranju plemena kod dinarskih Srba, Glasnik geografskog društva, Beograd, 1920, V.), another time they were Old Serbs Zečani (Isti, Stari Srbi Zečani i njihov govor, Belićev zbornik, Beograd 1937). He ended with contradictions in his work about Kuci, he stated that Albanain Kuci recognised the Montenegrin inhabitant (alleged Serb) exclusively as Skja. According to linguist P. Skok, Albanian word shqa (pl. shqe) means "Slav" (Slavs), coming from Vulgar-Latin sclavus from the Balkan Latin vocabulary. J.E. made one another misinterpretation (J.E., Postanak plemena Pipera); in a contract with the Venetians in 1455, population of Upper Zeta wanted Orthodox clergy; in the beginning of 17th century M. Bolica mentioned the Piperi as a tribe with "Serbian" or "Greek" religion; so he related appurtenance to the Orthodox Christianity directly to the ethnic, although discussed ethnos didn't bear that ethnic identity.

M. Sufflay (Srbi i Arbanasi, Beograd 1925, 76, 109) also fell into contradiction in his methodologically poor study about ethnic relations between the Montenegrins and the Albanians. He marked Kuci as a typical example of Montenegrin-Albanian symbiosis (in 1610 a half of them were Orthodox, a half were Latin). He stated they are Serbian tribe, but then acknowledged previous Rešetar and Jagić evidences that there were no Croatian nor Serbian name in wide regions between Drava and Zeta from 12th to 16/17th century, but only general Slavic (Slovinski) ethnic name.

If all investigations are sumerized, historiographical and archaeological and especially ethnologue and linguistic, it must be concluded that ethnic base of the Montenegrin people was very old layer of the Slavic population, from migration period. These earlier Slavic speakers assimilated the indigene people and adopted their culture, similar as elsewhere in the western Balkan (Š. Kulišić, Etnogeneza Crnogoraca)

In DAI, in chapter 32, Doclea was not mentioned among countries given to Serbs by the emperor Heraclios. Some scientists concluded that Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus didn't dispose with any tradition of Doclea being any kind of Serbian region (Lj. Hauptmann, Konstantin Porfirogenit o porijeklu stanovništva dubrovačkog zaleđa, Rešetarov zbornik, Dubrovnik 1931, 21-22).

In last decency of 11th century, Byz writer John Skylitzes wrote that the leaders of the Bulgarian rebellion asked for a support from "Mihajlo, a ruler of mentioned Croats, who seat in Kotor and Papratna and had authority over a large land". Mihajlo sent them his son Bodin and advisor Petril. However rebellion was ended and the Byzantines captured Bodin together with "one who was first next to Petril, among the Croats". Skylitzes also noted that “Serbian people, who are also called Croats rised to attack the Bulgarians”. Some scientists concluded that Skylitzes had used name Croats as a synonym for Serbs (N. Radojčić, Kako su nazivali Srbe I Hrvate vizantijski istorici? Glasnik Skopskog naučnog društva, Skoplje 1926, II, 2,…). Hauptmann rejects it and proposes that “2 historical provinces were settled by 2 leading tribes, Serbs in Raška, Croats in Doclea”. He cited Nikifor Brijenije, son in law and colleague of Aleksij Komnen whose father was an army leader who broke into Doclea:

1) “Croats and Docleats rebelled (1073) and ravaged all Illyria” (theme of Drac according to F. Šišić); 2) “While Croats and Docleats ravaged Illyria”, Brijenije’s father prepared an army and led it to fight “Docleats and Croats”.

He used it to propose that Skylitzes probably had used Docleats as geographical name and Croats as ethnical, so Docleats had been Crats in fact. (Hauptmann, 22)

R. Novaković rejected Hauptmann’s interpretation of these citations (R. Novaković, Odakle su Srbi došli na Balkansko poluostrvo, Beograd 1977, 298).

F. Šišić has said that presence of Croatian ethnos in Upper Dalmatia in 11th and 12th century explained name Red Croatia (Croatia Rubea), but it didn’t mean that Red Croatia was a part of Croatian state (F. Šišić, Letopis Popa Dukljanina, Beograd 1923, III, 4)

P. Skok explained toponym Crmnica - Crvnica (which means "crvena zemlja" (red soil/earth) - zemlja is used for both country and soil) as a region of Montenegro known as Croatia Rubea in Latin in Croatian Chronicle. Zenanarh (talk) 01:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think, at the end of the day, all theories are conjecture. I think it would be valid to state that terms such as Serb, Docleat, Croat were primary political in time of 9th to 12th century. Doclea was a special area which had both western (Roman) and eastern influences, although the Roman influences were limited to coastal areas only. See the Duklja article origins section. Do you agree with what I wrote . The concensus amongst the western sources which i have read treat Doclea as 'one of the Serb states' Hxseek (talk) 09:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Eh there's a lot of it more Zenanarh (talk) 21:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

You mean there's a lot more to it ? Enlighten me Hxseek (talk) 04:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter, neverending discussion. All in all it seems that Red Croatia was attached to the Croatian Kingdom, then these principalities got indenpendent and then Duklja was attached to the Serbian Kingdom etc...

I like your map. You're becoming proffessional mapmaker :) Zenanarh (talk) 20:23, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I'll keep an open eye about the matter. Thanks for the maps. You might want to add your expert opinion about the discussion below about Pannonia principality Hxseek (talk) 20:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

BTW, Fine's "When etnicity didn't matter" is considered as a crap work according to the Croatian historians, in such degree that they even don't want to lose time with it, Fine's main "sin" is ignoring of a huge amount of facts already proccessed by the historiography that he didn't use in his book, so it appears to be an ammateur work in comparison to what is already written by many other authors. Zenanarh (talk) 10:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Really? I guess I can see possibly why- since it kind of 'minimizes' the extent of Croatia's reach and identity. However, I think he raises interesting points which need not only apply for Croatia, but others such as Goths, Serbs, Huns, whomever. He is not the only one to pose the view that 'ethnicity' was only held by societal elite- the military and nobles. The average peasant had loyalties exteding only as far as the local church and family clan. Therefore the Croats were Branimir and his zhupans, an identity which then gradually extended to other Slavs who inhabited the lands which were subject to the Croats. The idea that an already formed nation called Croats which migrated from southern Poland, or wherever it may be, existed in 630 A.D. is a little unrealistic, and apparently not supported by evidence. I'd have to agree with him on this, as do Pohl and Curta. What exactly do you disagree with ?

Well, it seems that the most of the critics goes for his distortions of ethnonyms, on which he has based his thesis. Namely, ethnonym "Slovin" that appeared in the region, nowadays recognised as Croatian lands. Many authors already concluded that it was used only for Croats or for all South Slavs, but never only for Serbs for example.

This is why these people were/are considered as "Croats" - they were using the same word pool (although crossed by 3 dialects: Cakavian, Kajkavian and Ikavian Scakavian) and foundation of Croatian Kingdom was logical choice thanx to a language (word pool) and not only because of religion and service to the western Roman church (it only helped). The Slavs that became modern Slovenes were also speakers of this western SS word pool, but they completely lost their freedom already in the beginning. If they weren't, Croatian Kingdom would probably spread much more to the west. Maybe in that case it would be called "Slovinian Kingdom", who knows. Only political occassions through centuries resulted with formation of 2 different ethnicites, known by names Croatian and Slovenian. So it's completely irrelevant, in fact name is unimportant, ethnic group is important. People usually forget that Dalmatian and Pannonian Croatia were actually Cakavian and Kajkavian Croatia. Carantania was familiar to Slavonia, by dialect (Kajkavian), but all these Slavic regions shared the same language, not shared with the eastern South Slavs. So "Croats" as a name for an ethnic group is coincidence, not because they were not Croats, but rather because every narrow group had its own name, what name was gradually accepted by all population is another story. When we speak about Croatian superstratum it goes for people from Liburnia (Cakavians), no doubt about it, but in the same time only way to say "people from Croatian states/Kingdom" is to say "Croats" since term "Slavs" would mean something else because of the modern meaning of "Slavs". The point is that "Slovin" used by themselves meant "Croat" used by us - becuse of the language!!! So it's wrong to say that they were only Slavs and nothing more - it would suggest that people 1.200 yrs ago were not able to recognise their own language?!?

Ie some historians claim that the real Serbs were "Rasi" from Raška, while "Serbs" was attached to them by the Byzantines in meaning "servants" (Servi), so spread of the name "Serbs" would be a spread of "the Slavic people who served to Byzantium and Orthodox church". However we use Serbs since their culture was built on the eastern SS word pool and Orthodox tradition so it does make sense. But it's also a fact that Serbian occupation of the southern Dalmatian principalities in the 12th century meant some influx of the WSS word pool into their culture, so it would even appear that term "Serbs" is 10 times more dubious than "Croats" (whose language survived in its "purity" for several centuries longer).

Fine is playing with ethnonyms without understanding, as I've seen in a few minutes in the net, historians here are joking on his count. There's even a joke that his conclusions are motivated by the fact that he is married to a Serb wife... so it came from his bed... LOL

Concerning Croatian superstratum, I read a lot about it, I have impression that future discussions will be concentrated around 2 theories: 1) proper Croats were an ethnic group organized around a warrior elite that settled in Carantania in 6th, then moved to Liburnia in 7th, their name comes from name of Hurriti in old Mittania (modern Iran); 2) proper Croats were Churetes - Liburnians, some of them moved to Carantania escaping before Gothic invasion in 6th, where they were Slavized, then returned back in 7th - Cakavian Croatian is one of the oldest Slavic languages at all, full of archaisms from proto-Slavic but also other extinct IE (even some PIE) languages - an Italian linguist is using Cakavian Cro in his investigations concerning Ethruscan language! History is changing, step by step, I'm hardly waiting... Zenanarh (talk) 13:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

(I added the stuff on Red Croatia in Duklja article)

I'm sure it deserves to be mentioned there (at least), keeping in mind that there was much more of the historical sources about Red Croatia (but followed with relatively huge scientific silence in former century, thanx to the politics) in comparison to poor evidence (only 1 source stating nothing directly) of Serbian settlement there (but followed with relatively huge scientific noise in former century, thanx to the politics). However I can remember that in school history books in SFRJ, Red Croatia was there in every book, as a territory later attached to the Serbian Kingdom. It was consensus between the scientists. I must admit that I was very surprised and dissapointed when I found out that Red Croatia was erased from the Serbian history books after 1991, while "early Serbian settlement in the southern Dalmatia" is something that I've heard for the first time in my life, only 10 yrs ago; and it's not based on some brand new evidences - there are no any, but rather on portions of the extremely rich SANU production, where, unfortunatelly, too many quazi-scientists contributed in last 2 decencies, using selective refferences, exclusively pro-Serb ones. Sad.

BTW I hate to speak about these Cro-Serb struggles, it's almost impossible to deal with it and not to be accused for nationalism. I'm crazy about science, nothing more. Please don't get me wrong if I wrote something that smells like nationalism. Not my intention nor motivation. I would rather avoid such discussions in future, in that case. Zenanarh (talk) 18:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I know, i know. I didn;t know J.F. had a Serb wife. I guess many western historians might have accepted the idea that Montenegrins are Serb ar 'face value'. Kind of strange, given that westerners are generally 'pro-Croat' and anti-Orthodox. About skylitzes quotes, when he says "Docleats and Croats" - he might be referring to2 different ethnies which live in southern Dalmatia.

Truth is, the early history of Slavs is very sketchy. BTW, I;m a working a re-do on Slavic origins, etc. Its a mammoth task, and i do not even know how to 'present' all the different types of evidences, information, assumptions and conclusions. ATM, the Slavs article merely mentions the outdated migration hypothesis. Hxseek (talk) 02:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Maps

I'm sorry I couldn't reply to you sooner. I had a full week of study.

Which map have you tried to modify? If you are talking about the Roman Empire map, there shouldn't be any problem. However, in other maps I have grouped all elements into a single object. You have to click the Ungroup buton (sometimes several times) in order to have access to the individual objects. You should also read the Inkscape manual. That's what I did first.

Andrei nacu (talk) 21:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I hate winter, I should come to tropical Sydney... May I ask you something Hxseek? Can you make a map with Dalmatian language toponyms instead of File:Dalmatian language map bgiu.jpg for Dalmatian Language article?. Toponyms should be: Vecla, Arba, Crepsa, Jadera, Tragur, Spalatum, Ragusa, Cattaro. Zenanarh (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanx, friend. Yes it's nice. Just 2 changes needed: Dalmatian for Split was Spalatro not Spalatum (my mistake) and Dubrovnik was Ragusa, not Ragusium. Also those small colored regions around cities you've copied from the 1st map are someone's original idea supposed to mean something else (not what it says), it's impossible to define Dalmatian language area that way. It's better to remove it, make toponyms more bolded (a little bit invisible now) and simply use another definition of what is seen in a map: "Dalmatian cities where Dalmatian language was spoken in the Early Medieval". Zenanarh (talk) 13:33, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

No, I would rather say that these regions were sporadically distributed, depends on particular settlement in the age when Slavization was already on. However the most surely language survived in the mentioned cities, while rapidly Slavized in the rural zone. I guess noone can make the real map because of a lack of data, so this map should reflect superficial position of Dalmatian speakers before their final disappearing, in spirit of the article text.

In reality it was more complex, Dalmatian was surely widely spread in Dalmatia during the Late Antique/Early Medieval; in the 9th century it was probably spoken in Arba (Rab) city but not in the rest of island, in Jadera (Zadar) Croats were already massively settling in that moment becoming prominent citizens, while in Ragusa (Dubrovnik) it was probably the only language spoken in the city streets; from 10th to 12th century the number of speakers probably rapidly decreased, but not equally in all Dalmatia; in the 13th and 14th centuries it was probaly spoken by a narrow group in Rab island, it already disappeared in Zadar, while used as offical language in Dubrovnik, etc... in the 18th century it was still spoken by only a few people in all Dalmatia.

So this map is just an information on geography of these cities - last bastions of language and not really objective reconstruction of a "language distribution in particular age". Zenanarh (talk) 08:53, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Balkan languages

I have a question about your map of linguistic zones in the Balkans (4th c.). Why are Dacian and Thracian placed together as a single language group? What evidence is there that they were closely related (or indeed related at all?) EraNavigator (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Since almost nothing is known about Dacian (and little more about Thracian), I don't see how they can be so confidently linked. Georgiev says they are not linked, according to the Dacian language article. Can you point me to any hard evidence ofsuch a link? Regards EraNavigator (talk) 09:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought you might be interested to see this comparsison I did between known Illyrian words and Albanian: A further contribution on the Illyrian origin of Albanian. The meanings of only a small number of Illyrian words are known. But most of these have a convincing Albanian cognate. Using a reputable dictionary of Albanian etymology, this is what I've come up with:

• • As reconstructed by modern linguists on established Indo-European morphological principles

While this does not conclusively prove Albanian descends from Illyrian, it makes it more likely than not. The "hit-rate" is high, since these represent the majority of known Illyrian word-meanings. Given that the ancestors of modern Albanians were in large part Illyrians, it seems unnecessary to look elsewhere for the origin of the language. Any comments? PS: Thanks for the ANTES correction. I am aware that they are only mentioned for the first time by Jordanes in the 6th c., but that does not mean that they did not exist before then Jordanes says they certainly existed by the 4th c., as your excellent article on the Antes points out). What is clear, however, is that originally they were not Slavs, but a Sarmatian tribe, so at the time of the map (125 AD), they should be coloured red (if we assume they already existed). With the passing of the centuries, the Antes clearly mingled with, and/or subjugated, some of the VENETI Slavs, and the latter's language became predominant in the group. So I have instructed Andrei to leave the rubric in, but change the colour to red. I have also asked him to remove the SCLAVENI rubrics (see the notes I wrote for the map above your comment). PPS: I have just one criticism of your articles: they do not contain in-line references, contrary to Wiki policy. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 18:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, point taken about the ANTES, but I'd like to fill that space. I think it's useful to show that they were originally Sarmatians. Any more comments about the Thracian-Dacian connection? The reason I'm interested is that I suspect Dacian may have been closer to Illyrian than to Thracian. EraNavigator (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Dacian

As I can see, the only evidence that Thracian and Dacian were closely related is a single statement in Strabo (Geographica VII.3.13) which states: "The Dacians speak the same language as the Getae". Since he descibes the Getae as a Thracian tribe, it follows that Dacian and Thracian are essentially the same language. While Srabo is certainly not to be despised as a source, his work does contain known errors. The problem is that none of the (admittedly exiguous) linguistic evidence supports Strabo's statement. Georgiev claims that the two languages were quite different. His principal evidence is that the Dacian suffix for "town" was -DAVA, while the Thracian was -PARA, clearly of different origin. In view of the uncertainty, it would perhaps be better to amend your Ancient Tribes map to show Dacian as a separate language group (while keeping the GETAE in the Thracian zone). Regards EraNavigator (talk) 11:54, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, ignore the last phrase in parenthesis about the GETAE, whom Georgiev includes with the Dacians. In other words, Strabo was wrong to classify the GETAE as Thracians, but right to say that their language was the same as the Dacians'. According to Georgiev, the northern part of Bulgaria, as well as Romania, were in the Dacian-speaking zone, based on the distribution of -DAVA settlements. This makes sense, as the Romans called the plain south of the Danube MOESIA, and did not include it in THRACIA, which consisted of S. Bulgaria/N. Greece/European Turkey. Georgiev believes the name MOESIA derives from MYSIA in Asia Minor, and claims Dacian was akin to the Mysian language and so coins the term Daco-Mysian, which he believes was quite different to Thracian. For a map of the borderline between Thracian and Dacian, showing the -DAVA and -PARA divide, go here (lower map, scroll down): . Regards EraNavigator (talk) 08:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I can change the map Hxseek (talk) 13:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Maps

Hi Hxseek, I am sorry about taking so long to update the maps! I was wondering if you can redraw I (Y-DNA) with paint.net, it will be easier for you since you already have I2 (Y-DNA). It will be very hard for me to draw the same style you do in paint.net, whenever I try to concentrate & draw accurately my hands shake all over. I really was never good at drawing young or old :( Cadenas2008 (talk) 05:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello

Your translations are ready. Deucalionite (talk) 19:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Maps

Inkscape does not support .png, .gif or .jpg images because they cannot be vectorized. You cannot view imported items which belong to the file formats I mentioned. I'm not sure if converting the svg document into a png document will solve your ploblem, but it's worth trying. I use ConversionSVG (it's in French) which can be downloaded from:

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=194693&package_id=229595&release_id=584954

Andrei nacu (talk) 20:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Thracians

I agree that no firm (or even tentative) conclusions can be made about links between the extinct Balkan languages. But my point is, that in the absence of sufficient evidence to the contrary, it should be assumed that these languages are distinct and not closely related, as their different names imply. In other words, the "default assumption" that you should use when you draw your maps should be that they are different. PS: Check out my fully revamped article Carpi (Dacian tribe). Regards EraNavigator (talk) 11:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the map, I saw the other map I thought it was your map. It says user Crate in wikimapia they look nice also. Its better if you share the base maps so when he draws them they look uniformed. Cadenas2008 (talk) 03:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thracians

I think that's much better, as it does not prejudge the debate. NB: The caption should read THRACIAN, not THRACO-MYSIC: DACO-GETAN is the same as DACO-MYSIC. Moesia (or Mysia) is the name for the region S of Danube inhabited by the Getae. I have one more point about the map content: the Dardani and Paeones were of uncertain affiliation, with ancient authors describing them as mixed Illyrian/Thracian. You might wish to relect that by mixed shading. There are a few spelling corrections you need to make in this map (assuming you are using Latin names, not Greek or English - you should be consistent):

1. THRACES not Thraci
2. MACEDONII not Macedons
3. ILLYRII not Illyrioi
4. PAEONES not Paiones
5. PANNONII
6. PHYRYGES
7. GRAECI
8. SCYTHAE
9. MESSAPII

Alternatively, you could use English or Greek names throughout. The Greek versions are (transliterated - it's probably better to use Latin):

1. THRAKAI
2. MAKEDONIOI
3. ILLYRIOI (as now)
4. PAIONAI
5. DAKAI
6. PHRYGAI
7. HELLENOI
8. SKYTHAI

One final point: you should add BC to 4th century in the title. Hope this helps. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 07:54, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Maps

I prefer your maps, I couldn't find Crate account on[REDACTED] I was going to thank him for the maps and ask him to add the ones you already made, I think all DNA maps should have your design.

Another subject, I was doing more research on Dalmatians & I found out they also have the highest H & V mtDNA in the region (The study I saw had them near 60% H & 8% V), which almost corresponds to the 70% I2. Cadenas2008 (talk) 04:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

So far H highest frequency I saw is in Dalmatia 60%, while the lowest frequencies are in Italy & Greece. mtDNA is a whole diff subject, but I am starting to see a connection between mtDNA & the original Y-DNA lineage.

For example; (R1a + H) in Europe vs (R1a + M) in India?

This leads to the question of which was the origin maternal lineage of E1b1b?

In Greece: E1b1b + H ~35%

In Berbers E1b1b + H ~35%

In Somalia E1b1b + H ~1%

Ofcourse all of this is just theorizing, we really still don't know it all ;) Cadenas2008 (talk) 05:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Bastarnae

Check out my total upgrade of the Bastarnae article. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 13:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

4th c. BC linguistic map

It's looking good now. One further refinement I would recommend is that you put "Mts." (mountains) after the names of mountain ranges (e.g. Carpathians, Balkans etc, but drop the final "s", so it reads "Carpathian Mts", in lower case-letters to avoid confusion with the ethnic names) in case they are mistaken as the names of ethnic groups (never overestimate readers' knowledge!) PS: Why are PHRYGES in the same shade as THRACES? This may be unintentional, but it seems to imply another unproven connection. I suggest you put THRACES in a new shade that differentiates it even more from its neighbours (yellow or orange? Or swap colours with the Boii?) Regards EraNavigator (talk) 19:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, let us hope that readers don;t think that Danube were a people also :) Hxseek (talk) 10:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Even if they didn't know that the Danube is a river, they can't confuse it on your map, as you've put it in blue like the river itself and in lower-case. I can certainly see some people taking "CARPATHIANS" or "RHODOPES" as the names of tribes. In any case, the whole point of a map is to display data in a clear and unambiguous way. Consistency of labelling is important. If you have some geographical features in lower-case, so you should have them all.

Regarding your question about the Sclaveni names, I've looked at the lists of Thracian and Dacian kings, cities and tribes and only one of the names you gave me has a convincing parallel: Musiocus sounds close to Moskon, a 3rd c. BC Getan king attested in an inscription. In turn this name may be connected to the Romanian word mosoc (shepherd dog), which some Rom. linguists believe is a Dacian relic. But it's important to realise that this similarity may be just coincidental, and that Musiocus may not be of Dacian origin. In general, I would suggest that your Sclaveni names, if they are not Slavic, are much more likely to be Germanic or Sarmatian in origin, rather than Dacian. Of the five you've given me, Ardagast reminds me of Arbogast, the Frankish general in the late Roman army. Alternatively, the prefix Arda- is typical in Iranian names cf. Artabanus (Ardavan), the name of several Parthian kings and satraps. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 11:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, the Thracian-Phrygian connection is just a hypothesis, not a scholarly consensus, let alone a proven fact. You can't show it on a map without taking sides. As a mapmaker, you have to be neutral and go for the default assumption that the the two are separate languages. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 10:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Map Balkans850

Nice work, but you are having mistake. For example Ravenna is part of Papal state from 8 century. I will look for all other mistake and write you :)--Rjecina (talk) 12:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Bulgarian Empire is having too much territory. Ohrid will be taken by Bulgaria only around 874. Zadar and other Croatian coastal towns (not Istra) are part of Byzantine Empire not Venice. For all other things in my thinking your map is OK --Rjecina (talk) 12:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The maps actually depicts late ninth century, not 850 (although I saved the file name as '850"). Ravenna fell to the Lombards definitively in 852. As for the Bulgarian expansion into Macedonia, no one know exact dates for sure, but they were on their way to conquering Macedonia in the late 800s. Definitely by 900 thay had taken Macedonia.

Also, the map does not show that Dalmatian towns were part of Venice. They show that they were part of Byzantine theme of Dalmatia. Venice is the same colour because it too was nominally under Byzantine influence Hxseek (talk) 14:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Then you are having another problem called Panonian Croatia. This state exist between 880-898/900. Maybe there is problem with 2 duchy ? First is called Balaton principality and second is Panonian Croatia. After destruction of Balaton principality duke of Panonian Croatia will extend territory, but this is another story.--Rjecina (talk) 13:45, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. Pannonian Croatia, i.e. the lands of modern day Croatia betwen the Sava and Drava, and around Sisak, was under the rule of the Frankish Margrave of Bavarian Eastlands. There was no politically independent state called "Pannonian Croatia". Part of it fell under the rule of the Balaton Principality (quite unclear which part and when). NB: Balaton Principality= Pannonian principality/ duchy. When the Kocel died, the Franks reclaimed Pannonia (ie north and south of the Drava), 2 years later, they gave similar territory to Braslav- the Slavic "prince".

Hxseek (talk) 14:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Ravenna fell to the Lombards definitively in 752, not in 852. This is Papal state in 9 century.

About definition Balaton Principality=Pannonian principality in my thinking you are wrong, but I will drop ball. We will see reaction of other users from Croatia (if somebody will notice).... --Rjecina (talk) 16:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Whatever about Ravenna, its not the focus of my maps. The Balaton=Pannonian Principality connection is alleged on the article on it here in Wiki. I'll double check. I'll ask Z. Hxseek (talk) 20:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the balaton principality was also known as the pannonia principaliy given its location in what was referred to as lower Pannonia. Hxseek (talk) 20:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

A map of the Frankish Empire 843-888 . Some maps of Illyricum and Croatia at the bottom of the page , from here Croatia during Trpimir (845-864) , or 9th-11th - here you can see borders between Pannonian and Dalmatian Croatia (Hxseek you asked for it a few days ago?) Zenanarh (talk) 08:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Yep, they're good. Thanks . Hxseek (talk) 09:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

As for Pannonia, "Lower Pannonia" was geographical term (Carantania was spread to the Balaton Lake in the Lower Pannonia in the east), "Balaton Principality" was a political unit in the Lower Pannonia. I'm not sure about Slavonia ever being indenpendent in the real sense of meaning but it's not impossible for some short time, due to a complex vasalage system during the Medieval: vasalage could have ranged from -total service to another unit- to -almost complete indenpendence "disturbed" only by a war alliance with another unit-. In this 2nd case a ruler allied to a stronger partner to preserve his own authority over particular territory. In a region such as Pannonia where a lot of changes occurred in a short time, these things were changing a lot and very rapidly. I think Rjecina is right about a sort of indenpendence of Pannonian Croatia in the last decencies of the 9th century. Only a fact that Braslav picked up his "partner" (the Franks) shows that he was indenpendent in some degree and when they attacked Svatopluk it was in Hungarian part of Pannonia not in Croatian, so Braslav didn't liberate himself but rather went beyond Svatopluk who had some naughty intentions about Slavonia. On the other side both Svatopluk and Braslav were the Frankish vasals, initally, so... Zenanarh (talk) 18:46, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Romaioi gave us this link with maps . Among the other, there's a map for 900 AD. Zenanarh (talk) 18:54, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, its from Euratlas. They're nice looking maps, but rather inaccurate, eg in 700 AD the Antes did not exist. There was no such thing as Bulgarians in 600 AD. Yes, it has a nice picture of Savia in 900AD, which would be Braslav's Greater Duchy. The history of Pannonia region is more vague than others. From what I have understood:

• Initially Lower Pannonia referred to south of the Drava, ie "Croatian Pannonia". After Liutevid's revolt, Louis the German re-organized the Frankish eastern Marches (Carinthia, Lower Pannonia, Upper Pannonia, Carniola). He rotated the borders of L and U Pannonia 90'. Ie, the border line now ran through the Raab river in NW Hungary, so that it would fit the ecclesiastical borders b/w Salzburg and Passau. Upper Pannonia was what became Ostmark, ie northern Austria. Lower Pannonia is exactly where Balaton Principality is - ie b/w the Raab, Danube and Drava rivers according to Goldberg (who wrote a book on the rule of Louis the German). The New Cambridge Medieval History extend this border to the Sava. So the rulers we know in the area are:

• Vojnomir- who helped the Franks in c. 800 against the Avars
• Liutevid (910-823)
• Ratimir sometime in the 830s, who was expelled by Ratbod.

Then nothing, no ruler mentioned until Brsalav in 880/4. This corresponds to the deat of kotsel in 876. Perhaps during this time Savia (Croatia b/s Sava and Rava) was ruled by Pribina and Kotsel from their center in Blatnograd. Then in 884 we hear of Braslav, who was centred in Sisak. After Svatopoluk died and the Franks recovered Pannonia north of the Danube from th Moravians, he was given the rest of Pannonia in fief. Poor guy only got to rule for 5 years before those nasty Magyars came and caused trouble.

The question is : what was happening in Savia b/w Ratimir in 830 and 880, when Braslav appears? Does Klaic think that Pribina's principality extended to south of the Drava?

Hxseek (talk) 02:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

NowCommons: File:700.png

File:700.png is now available on Wikimedia Commons as Commons:File:Bulgarian Map.png. This is a repository of free media that can be used on all Wikimedia wikis. The image will be deleted from Misplaced Pages, but this doesn't mean it can't be used anymore. You can embed an image uploaded to Commons like you would an image uploaded to Misplaced Pages, in this case: ]. Note that this is an automated message to inform you about the move. This bot did not copy the image itself. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 06:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Macedonians, Greeks, and ancient ethnic groups

Even if you won't eventually succeed to balance the existing bias, hopefully you'll appreciate the following at least as a good reading for yourself (the year is not necessarily that of the first edition, but of the edition I've consulted):

• Ernest Badian, "Herodotos on Alexander I of Macedon: a study in some subtle silences" in Simon Hornblower (ed.), Greek Historiography (1994), p. 107-130
• Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon (1992) (online review from BMCR)
• Jonathan M. Hall, Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity (2000)
• Jonathan M. Hall, Hellenicity: Between Ethnicity and Culture (2002) (online review from BMCR)
• Anna Panayotou, "The position of the Macedonian dialect" in Anastasios F. Christidis (ed.), A History of Ancient Greek: From the Beginnings to Late Antiquity (2007), p. 433-443

Daizus (talk) 17:55, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Antes

I need some info about the Antes, so I thought I would consult the expert. (1) was Jordanes the earliest chronicler to mention them, and if not, who was? (2) Can you give me an exact reference for the statement in your article that the Antes were probably originally Iranic-speakers, who later established a kind of overlordship over Slavic-speakers? (3) Is the name of their early king Boz Iranic or Slavic (with ref please)? Many thanks EraNavigator (talk) 20:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Maps

Hi Hxseek. I found a way to embed raster files within Inkscape. Are you still interested in this?

1. Select the raster image in Inkscape.

2. Go to Effects > Images > Embed All Images

3. Tick 'Embed only selected images' > Apply

That should be it!

Cheers

Andrei nacu (talk) 00:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Antes

Thanks for the info. Do any of your sources suggest where the Antes may have been located before the 6th c. (and esp, in the 1st/2nd centuries)? EraNavigator (talk) 11:15, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Chaones

does Stipcevic mention what he means with "were considered of Illyrian origin"? who is he referring to? to my knowledge, no classical authors considered the Epirotic tribes "Illyrian" (by definition Illyria was geographically north of Epirus, irrespectively of language) ever, though they frequently called them "barbarian" (other times they clearly considered them Greek, e.g. Herodotus, the episode with Cleisthenes and Hippocleides). truth is, scholarly opinion considered the tribes of Epirus as non-Greek-speaking or "Hellenized Illyrian" (that is, they became Greek-speaking in historical times, after the Greek settlements in Corcyra "where they got their language from" etc.) until relatively recently.

however, the generally accepted view nowadays is that Epirotans were Greek-speaking indeed (the discovery of early epigraphy in epichoric greek dialects that can't have been adopted from the Greek colonies, mostly epichoric northwest Greek names etc.; there is some literature on why the Greeks called them barbarian while they most likely actually spoke Greek), perhaps with an area of Greek-Illyrian bilingualism (no modern borders, obviously) in the north, which would probably cover some Chaonian territory but certainly not Molossian or Thesprotian, and the occasional Bryges-Phryges and perhaps other "pre-Greek" and "pre-Illyrian" leftovers. the Atintani are an interesting case, there is some debate on what area-settlements they covered and whether there were actually two different tribes at play: one Greek-speaking, the "Atintanes" and one Illyrian-speaking, the "Atintani" (for this latter opinion: hammond if memory serves?). peace. 85.74.215.122 (talk) 23:22, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi

Can you take a look on article Demographic history of Bačka? User:Hobartimus just deleting results of 1715 census without explanation. 212.69.2.147 (talk) 10:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Antes

I have been unable to locate mention of the Antes in Ptolemy' s Geographia. Do you have the exact ref? Thanks for your help. EraNavigator (talk) 11:02, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Archaeology750BC.png

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If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. — neuro 11:04, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Early Slavs

On March 3, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Early Slavs, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Royalbroil 12:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

File:Balkans925.png

Hi. I was just wondering if you could add a link to the specific map by Andrei Nacu which you based the image on. It's just for completion as it's being transfered to Commons. /Lokal_Profil 23:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. /Lokal_Profil 19:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Archaeology750BC.png

An image that you uploaded or altered, File:Archaeology750BC.png, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Possibly unfree images because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the image's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the image description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Lokal_Profil 00:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Tacfarinas

Check out my new article on Tacfarinas, a Numidian rebel in the Roman era. Regards EraNavigator (talk) 12:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

E1b1b article

Hi! I like your map making efforts, but this map is visibly and logically not the Pericic map it claims to be. You need to explain how you made it please.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)