Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:38, 27 March 2009

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This specific proposal is described here. It uses the flagged revisions software extension in a conservative and specific manner. Please note: This is for a two-month trial only. Discussion on comments · Support · Oppose · Neutral · Voting is evil

Discussion on comments

What about having comment-less votes similar to the recent CU / OS elections? Comments can go up here (or this section can be moved to the bottom). Thoughts? --MZMcBride (talk) 19:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

That would be good, if this was moved to the bottom. –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I think we should allow comments with the votes for now. It gives useful feedback, and in case serious problems with the proposal are discovered this poll might be closed and a new one started after modifying the proposal. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there a set timeframe for this poll? I think there probably should be, so that it doesn't go on for some ridiculous amount of time. A week, maybe? There's been so much attention already that it shouldn't take long. Maybe a month? –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

A week seems reasonable, esp. for just a trial. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

We need to get a watchlist notice for this poll and I would say giving it one week from the time that the watchlist notice goes up seems reasonable. Davewild (talk) 20:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

A bit longer would be fair, at least it shouldn't be closed as successful too early. Implementing something that people haven't got a chance to comment on will create a backlash. We could ask the developers to start looking into the technical implementation aspects before we reach a final decision though. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Watchlist notices should be discussed at MediaWiki talk:Watchlist-details, though in my opinion a notice is overkill for just a trial and should not be done. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

(@ Apoc) I would agree were this a discussion on full implementation, but this is just a two month trial. Do we really need to take a month to poll for a two month trial...? :) –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

The last poll was also for a trial and had 720 votes in total. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and that poll had a fairly large majority of supporters. This poll is just on one implementation of the result of that poll. –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

That poll certainly did not receive concensus. Looking at the analysis of the results one sees that admins were in favour and very well represented in the poll. Other editors were just about evenly split. IP editors were not really represented. A one week poll will inevitably skew the representation even further making for an unrepresentative poll. The idea that because something is temporary it needs less discussion is ridiculous: to paraphrase another poster "I didn't think I needed to ask you honey, it was just a two month affair!" Thehalfone (talk) 08:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

No poll or policy discussion is ever "representative" like that. Claiming that IPs weren't represented is a rather weak argument against a consensus. Mr.Z-man 18:36, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

You are right, of course, that IPs and newly signed up editors tend not to take part in policy discussions. It seems more important, however, when it is a proposal that will affect their edits but not those of long term account holding editors. Note that there was no ] found in the previous discussions or polls. Thehalfone (talk) 09:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The proposer of the trial says "Flagged protection uses similar techniques, but it's very different in spirit from 'classic' flagged revisions." This being the case when was this proposal discussed? Are having a vote on this without discussing it first? If so, then why? I think those who support this proposal should be careful or the will appear to be rushing this through without proper scrutiny: going straight to a vote, making yet another page rather than using the multiple pages already there for discussing implementations of flagged revisions, pushing for the vote to be without comments even, trying to close the poll early. Thehalfone (talk) 08:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed extensively (or at least the controversial part has). Polls on that page have had a tendency to be lost in the flood of nonsense from zealots on both sides, as well as people asking questions and arguing over technicalities (there have been about 3 polls there on matters of technical implementation, and they were mostly ignored). A poll on an actual trial will be huge and merits its own page. This is not "going straight to a vote" by any measure, as the proposal has been around for quite some time, and all it has produced thus far is a large amount of arguing over whether flaggedrevs is acceptable in any form. Thus a poll on a separate page is warranted. The combination has also been around for some time, being a descendent of flagged protection. --Thinboy00 @045, i.e. 00:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer. One problem is that there are so many pages discussing various implementations of flagged revisions that many people will not come across this even if they are actively looking for it. Note that there is no link to here from Misplaced Pages:Flagged protection. I will add one now. Thehalfone (talk) 09:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment on this vs. new page patrolling I've seen some comments here and elsewhere that tries to compare this to new page patrolling. Please correct me if I'm wrong here but the way I've understood this is that all it would take is a minor modification of Huggle. If a reviewer is checking an edit the way she/he would do anyway with the current system that person can either approve it or not which technically isn't much different from rolling it back or not. This is nothing like new page patrolling and those who currently patrol BLPs with Huggle shouldn't be doing so anyway unless they can tell the difference between a BLP violation and a valid edit. Once we have the proper tools in place to review edits this won't be any different from what we're doing now. I'm not seeing the extra workload. I don't think this system is good enough to deal with the problem but at least it's a step in the right direction. EconomicsGuy (talk) 08:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

So, when should we close the poll ? It started on March 17, if we say two weeks, we could close this at 00:00, 1 April 2009 (!..). Cenarium (talk) 18:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a bit late for this decision? It almost sounds like the plan is being made up as you go along. 203.24.135.66 (talk) 21:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, there was some planning above, but it didn't really get much input. Personally, I think that April 1 is a good time... that's still another week or so, and the number of new !votes already seems to be dying off a little bit. The question then is to determine what the consensus from the poll is... at this time, I'd say "trial" since there's 1/5th the number of opposers as supporters. I know, I know, it's a head count, but I think that it would be impossible to determine consensus based on the quality of a person's argument unless the person determining consensus is completely neutral on the issue... which I think is more or less impossible. –Drilnoth (T • C) 21:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Support has been hovering around 85% since the day this opened. What further information do you expect to gain in another week? Better to spend that time sorting out the fine details. 203.213.2.194 (talk) 03:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Basically, if we closed this poll now, after just one week, there would inevitably be people saying that they didn't get a chance, because they didn't know about it. If we give it two weeks, that complaint loses a lot of its weight. –Drilnoth (T • C) 13:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Still keeping steady at 86.16% supporters. –Drilnoth (T • C) 16:30, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with another week (ending april 1), I just stumbled across the poll via a link through this weeks 'signpost' that I read off another users talk page.....so, there might be an interest/voting bounce. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It's down to 85.8% now, so if this drastic trend continues we'll be below 70% in only 9 more weeks. 203.213.2.194 (talk) 02:37, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

OH NO!</exaggeration> :) –Drilnoth (T • C) 12:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Support

1. Support {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 17:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
2. Strong support. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
3. Support, as proposer. Cenarium (talk) 17:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
4. –Juliancolton 17:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
5. Strong support. Opens Misplaced Pages up by augmenting (and ultimately I suspect, replacing) our existing protection tools, and gives a non-intrusive means to monitor our BLP violations specifically. How could I oppose such an expansive improvement to our open editing model? Fritzpoll (talk) 17:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
6. Support flagged protection and patrolled revisions, as long as most any established editor (something like 500+ constructive edits over a few weeks) can apply for gaining "reviewer" rights, unless there's some obvious reason why they shouldn't (e.g. a recent block), and as long as the patrolled revisions are basically unseen to the reader. I don't like the idea of having only "reviewed" or "sighted" version visible by default to users not logged in, but having flags that users can make use of to track an article's accuracy would be a great idea. –Drilnoth (T • C) 17:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   As I understand it, the patrolled revisions are entirely passive - it won't affect the front page view, but will give a stream of revisions for us to check in the background, separate from the RC feed. Fritzpoll (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Awesome. Then this is a Full support. –Drilnoth (T • C) 18:35, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   That's not what the proposal currently says, Fritz. -- Kendrick7 19:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Yes it is. The patrolled revisions are passive, the flagged protection is active. You've not quite read this, have you?  :) Fritzpoll (talk) 20:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   They indeed seem to be passive. Aaron Schulz 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

7. Support a trial. I have reservations about flagged protection but let's see how it goes for a couple of months. Tempshill (talk) 17:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   What could be a problem with flagged protection? It doesn't look to me like it will restrict anything, really, just add more options to allow other users the chance to edit pages (with approval, for full protection or non-autoconfirmed users). –Drilnoth (T • C) 17:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Don't worry about Tempshill's doubts unless he opposes the trial. Wanting proof that something works in practice is a natural reaction. {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 18:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

8. Strong support - This clearly, for anyone that bothered to actually read it, allows more people to edit than the current system allows while also stepping up protection for articles which is beyond necessary for our BLPs at this point. لennavecia 17:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
9. Support. I voted against the previous trial proposal, but this is good. Not perfect, but good. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
10. Flagged protection offers better editing rights while still being able to protect our BLPs. Sceptre 18:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

    Incidentally, I support the notion of enabling the surveyor right on this, which can edit/validate full-flagged pages immedately, and can (if it's not set up to do so automatically) promote people to reviewer. Sceptre 18:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

11. Support anything that moves us closer to a flagged system. -- Bastique 18:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
12. Support for the sixth time. How did Bullwinkle put it? Right. "This time, for sure! Presto!" - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 18:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
13. Support. This is a step forward.--Pharos (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
14. Support. I don't want full on flagged revisions for all of wikipedia, but have it like semi and full protection. Deavenger (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
15. Support excellent idea, will vastly improve the effectiveness of RC patrol and open up semiprotected pages without restricting the ability to edit pages. Hut 8.5 19:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
16. Support A trial especially, but in general better attempts at regulating potentially bad edits. And I'd hope unlike a couple of the below posters that most people actually take the time to see just what it being 'voted' on here. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 19:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
17. Support. This is a step forward. - WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
18. Support No harm in a trial. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 19:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
19. People's lives are more important than some stupid lousy catchphrase. Anyone can edit, hahaha. Majorly talk 19:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

    This attitude doesn't really help building consensus here. --Apoc2400 (talk) 19:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

    What kind of attitude? Majorly gave his opinion that people's real lives are more important than retaining the phrase "anyone can edit". A perfectly reasonable opinion, at that. –Juliancolton 21:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

20. Support this important first step. Cool Hand Luke 19:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
21. Support. The Misplaced Pages, the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit slogan is already not valid, as we routinely block and ban people who cannot behave. I am for full implementation of flagged revisions, and I suggest that all who oppose are going to do all the vandalism fighting. It is time to do something sensible. -- Kim van der Linde 19:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
22. Support. A small step, but an important one, in the right direction. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
23. Support Although it doesn't go far enough for my tastes. And I sincerely hope "the 💕 that anyone can edit" brigade go bankrupt when they are dragged through the courts one day GTD 19:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

    This would actually open the project up to new lawsuits, since content would be approved by admins, who are essentially unpaid staff of the foundation. Once we're no longer a freely editable host of user content, we lose the legal protections that come with merely hosting online information. -- Kendrick7 19:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

    Which is exactly what I want to see. If real world people are being harmed, they should be allowed to seek recompense from those doing the harming GTD 20:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

    You got the unpaid part right, but the rest is off the mark as the Foundation is not involved in selecting the admin, the reviewers, the content, any more now than before. Rather we have a better chance that problems will be discovered. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

24. Support a trial with this criteria. FloNight♥♥♥ 19:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
25. Support. Glad the details have been hammered out. Looking forward to the repercussions. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
26. Support Not nearly as good as semi-protection of all BLPs and liberal use of full protection but a small step in the right direction. EconomicsGuy (talk) 20:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
27. Support Yep. Any advance in the correct direction is better than nothing. SBHarris 20:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
28. Support I don't think this goes far enough, but we have to take the first step. Kevin (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
29. Support shoy (reactions) 20:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
30. Just do it already. And, opposers, get over the "💕 that anyone can edit" stuff. That day passed a while ago. BLPs deserve more effective protective measures... this is a good start and yes, it's on "dangerous" path to more rigorous protective measures... the only danger in that "dangerous" path is not taking it. ++Lar: t/c 20:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
31. Support a trial using this policy.--Iner22 (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
32. Support we should at least try. Schutz (talk) 20:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
33. Support as a trial only. Not a substitute for semi-protection of all BLPs. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
34. Support, and I opposed every previous flagged revisions proposal. - Rjd0060 (talk) 21:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
35. Support Obviously. MBisanz 21:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
36. Support BJ 21:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
37. Support We need to grown up, innocence is over :( -- lucasbfr 21:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
38. Support. Though I voted in support of flagged revisions, this proposal is much better. Bsimmons666 (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
39. Support. This specific proposal makes Misplaced Pages more open, full stop. Although we may want to use flagged revisions more aggressively in the future (and indeed, I hope that it's feasible to do so), that will require consensus. Slippery slope arguments are unconvincing.--ragesoss (talk) 21:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
40. Support - Hopefully this will let us reduce the number of BLP violations without any significant negative effects. –Megaboz (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
41. Support While I still strongly believe that the best option for Misplaced Pages is to just disable anonymous editing and require users to get a free account to edit, every time I bring that up, a slew of editors keep bringing up WP:PERENNIAL. This proposal seems like it might actually work to protect the integrity of articles while not overburdening editors with too much bureaucratic duties. I support giving this a trial. Dr. Cash (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
42. Support Merely one step in the right direction. Misplaced Pages needs to take more steps in the same direction to protect both the subjects of the BLPs, the contributors to the relevant articles, and itself. I sincerely hope that it does. Time to abandon cheap and snappy slogans like the "💕 that anyone can edit (which has not been true for a long time anyway), and face up to the fact that hard critical thinking about the issues involved is needed and cannot be ignored by merely trotting out such slogans.  DDStretch  (talk) 22:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
43. Support I was opposed to the generic "shall we try flagged revs" but this seems like an appropriately controlled experiment with a reasonably high chance of improving the encyclopedia. Well done. xschm (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
44. Support but kind of remaining skeptical if it will be successful due to the huge kind of similar backlog of unpatrolled pages at Special:NewPages. MuZemike 23:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
45. Support: Maybe we can start putting faith back into the editing process at Misplaced Pages. seicer | talk | contribs 23:33, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
46. Strong support per my comments for example in the fourth bullet point under "in the near future" here; as I explain there, I suggest not labelling the link or tab going to the most recent version "draft" but calling it "newest" or "latest" or something. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
47. Support Let's try it. -- Noroton (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
48. Strong Support Flagged protection seems like a good way to make the encyclopedia more open while still helping to protect sensitive WP:BLP articles :). All the Best, Mifter (talk) 00:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
49. Support a trial, let's see how it goes. Cirt (talk) 00:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
50. Strong support, a good first step. -- Avenue (talk) 00:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
51. Support. Thank you, Cenarium, for helping push this forward. Cla68 (talk) 01:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
52. Support — I have a feeling that flagged protection will actually help restore Misplaced Pages to "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit." I mean, sure, we could always just stick with regular ol' semi and full protection, but I have to keep asking myself the same question: isn't normal semi- and full- protection actually less conducive to allowing everyone to edit? At least this way anonymous editors and newbie editors have a way of editing as opposed to being relegated to the talk pages and/or completely shut out of the process. It'd make editing full-protected templates a piece of cake for all editors so that {{editprotected}} requests are a similarly a piece of cake to fulfill accurately. Those on quests for the the right version can be more easily subdued, as well; for, as it stands, our only main recourses for persistent sockpuppet attacks, for example, are full protection (which is a pain for all editors, including admins) and article probation (which results in a huge "assume bad faith" situation). In my opinion, flagged protection would give us a much saner option in this and other cases. Even better, if it turns out this thing doesn't work out, it's only for two months. That said, let my support not be construed as a carte blanche for mass-enabling flagged revisions across broad domains (e.g., "all blp articles" or "everything currently semi-protected"), because I do not believe that that route is sustainable (just take a look at new page patrol to see why :P). Anyway, cheers =) --slakr 01:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
53. Strong Support A first step in the right direction. Biographies will improve, and real people will be protected from nonsense and worse. A win-win. Priyanath  01:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
54. Support We need to at least try this. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 01:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
55. Support - I would support any version of flagged revisions, if only to show the nay-sayers that we can try and build an encyclopaedia the sensible way. WilyD 01:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
56. Per WR. — CharlotteWebb 03:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
57. Strong support --Stephen 03:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
58. Probably a good idea (per WR of course). --NE2 06:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
59. Support - a sensible approach to a controversial issue. Joshdboz (talk) 06:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
60. Strong support - it's not enough, IMO - not at all, but it's streets ahead of the mayhem that currently exists. Let's at least give it a shot - Alison 06:23, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
61. Support would be an improvement and I really think it would be very helpful to encouraging serious anonymous users back. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
62. Support Let's see what happens. MER-C 09:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
63. Support Randomblue (talk) 12:59, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
64. Support with caveat that a clearly defined trial (time, scope, evaluation) should be agreed, to prevent a drift into long-term de facto policy. Rd232 13:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
65. Support - If this trial succeeds, the reputation of Misplaced Pages will be enhanced. JoJan (talk) 14:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
66. Support Not as far reaching as I would have liked but better than nothing, GDonato (talk) 16:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
67. Strong Support Skinny87 (talk) 16:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
68. Support. While this is almost certainly needed on a broad scale (i.e. most BLP's) a trial ia a good way to assess and debug any system. Eluchil404 (talk) 16:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
69. I'm Mailer Diablo and I approve this message, because this is a lot, lot, lot better implementation! The best proposal so far. - 16:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
70. Strong Support — Jake Wartenberg 17:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
71. Support. PhilKnight (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
72. Support. Let's give it a chance. Valley2city 18:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
73. Strong support. This is only a trial, and I think it's a step in the right direction. Artichoker 18:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
74. Support. I recently contacted an admin because I was unable to edit a protected page and had not received a response on the article's talk page. This proposal has the potential to alleviate such problems and is worth a try. Recognizance (talk) 19:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
75. Support. Misplaced Pages is a weak "encyclopedia" at best. This process would be a good step toward major improvement. I feel strongly enough about this proposed process that I would be prepared to actively participate in it when it is implemented, and would also consider increasing the amount of time I devote to Misplaced Pages. Taroaldo (talk) 20:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
76. Support. More protection is needed, particularly for BLPs, but with the existing forms of protection is unlikely to happen. A trial is needed to determine whether flagged protection can be successful for this. —Snigbrook 21:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
77. Support. People really need to calm down about the slippery slope argument. If this does create a slippery slope, we will argue over every inch on the way down, and eventually we will find a happy medium. Some people seem to think that a trial lasting for 2 months will ruin the project, or else I suppose they don't want to see whether this will work for some reason. I haven't seen any convincing arguments against just checking whether this will work or not... and that's all we're doing. --Thinboy00 @049, i.e. 00:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
78. Support - yes. Sooner rather than later, please. Robofish (talk) 00:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
79. Support - Can only be beneficial and will remove vandalism to the people who are reading but never registering. Lincher (talk) 00:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
80. Support - We have all seen cases where a silly or blatently POV edit has remained visible to the outside world for hours or even a day or two because everyone who had that particular artilce on their watch list happened to be busy doing something else. This kind of thing gives the encyclopedia a bad rep, and this seems like a relatively painless way to address the problem. Rusty Cashman (talk) 04:45, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
81. Support Privatemusings (talk) 07:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
82. "Flagged protection" isn't really enough, but eh, it's better than nothing. This also opens up editing more than semi-protection. People saying "oh no this will destroy editing for everybody" apparently cannot understand words. Tombomp (talk/contribs) 10:01, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
83. Support - it's about time that the project realised that we have a mandate to 'do no harm'. Freedom of knowledge isn't the same as freedom of expression, and the sooner we grow up as a community and understand this, the better. We can't keep throwing the time of volunteers at a problem in the belief that it'll be alright, and we can't maintain the status quo when every item of high-profile vandalism gets splattered across the front page of news agencies worldwide, even if it's only there for 7 minutes. Like it or not, this is damaging our reputation as an encyclopedia and until we grasp the nettle and deal with it, we're going to continue to have the mainstream press ridiculing us at every opportunity. Besides, I think that we'll probably see a decline in new editors joining the project and providing us with the manpower to revert vandalism if we continue to receive mockery instead of praise in the future. I for one would like to be proud to tell my colleagues I do volunteer work for Misplaced Pages, not that I'm a janitor on the website anyone can libel. Gazimoff 12:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

    This is what I can't get my head around. Nothing in this actual proposal does anything that you seem to think it does, or want it to do. Supporting simply because it might lead somewhere else is to my mind pointless, we already have (60%) consensus for turning it on and doing something. If that something isn't what you want, why support it?

    And as an aside, I cannot see how this particular proposal loses us any editors, but I find the sentence "I think that we'll probably see a decline in new editors joining the project and providing us with the manpower to revert vandalism" wholly disturbing. For meeting the aims of building the entire knowledge of the world, Misplaced Pages already has far too few editors, and you want less people? MickMacNee (talk) 14:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

    You should read more carefully, but I'll indulge and provide you with more background information. We currently have the potential to do great harm to people, corporations and organisations through our popularity as the world's 4th most visited website. By allowing anyone to edit, we've been complicit in allowing users to libel and defame others as a side effect of our open policy. This has caused real damage, to real people, for no other reason than because it's on their Misplaced Pages article. But more than that, if we keep on allowing users to use WP as a platform for libel and defamation, we open ourselves up to ridicule. People lose trust in the project and begin to see it as a joke rather than a philanthropic endeavour. So what I'm saying is that if this continues, we'll continue to see a decline in adctive editors and administrators, which is what my second point was about.

    My other point was about developing tools. Let's be honest, this is a tool with a wide variety of applications. Part of it is protecting BLPs, part of it is protecting other sensitive articles. Currently, our only solutions are to protect pages from editing (there goes "anyone can edit") or revert vandalism and warn/block. By default any vandalism is instantly displayed on the site and then has to be reverted. But even if we're very quick at detecting and reverting vandalism, it is still displayed for a period of time and still ends up making front page headlines. It also requires volunteers to spend time racing to detect, choose and revert vandalism. Sometimes it means that vandalism is missed and stays displayed on the site for months on end before it is detected and reverted. This proposal turns the workload upside down - instead of racing to remove vandalism we'd be spending time reviwing edits and making them visible to unregistered readers. Instead of racing to remove something, we'd have time to make more intelligent decisions.

    Currently we have 2.5k users and 1.5k admins able to perform rollback. Our primary vandalism management tactic is to use these people to revert vandalism and block those that vandalise repeatedly. We can't rely on this indefinately - especially if the admin and user base shrinks. Besides, we have people who donate their time purely doing this kind of activity and rather than being treated as valued community members they're often mocked as simple minded button pushers. If people see WP being mocked as a project in the media, they're less likely to join as an editor. If the number of articles continues to grow, yet the pool of editors and by extension vandal fighters doesn't, then we will not be able to keep up and vandalism will be visible for longer.

    We have a mechanism available to us now to fix this and restore the public trust in the project. A public that internationally pays to keep us runing and allows us to expand infrastructure. It's about time we repaid them. This isn't a playground any more, we shouldn't treat it as one. Gazimoff 15:51, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

    That was rather a long post, but not a lot of it was actualy about this specific proposal. This proposal does not apply Flagged Protection to any more articles than those that already meet the protection policy, and this proposal does not stop anonymous edits from appearing immediately without review as they do currently. So, as I said, it doesn't do what you think it does. Period. As for losing editors due to bad press, badly researched news articles about Misplaced Pages will continue to appear no matter what system is implemented. The idea any kind of Flagged system will stop bad press for the project doesn't have any legs at all, that's wishfull thinking at best, and naivety about how the MSM works at worst. MickMacNee (talk) 16:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

    Actually, it does. To quote the table on Semi-flagged protection for unregistered users: Can edit; a new edit is visible to registered users, but not to readers by default until reviewed by a 'reviewer'. It's a start. And it'll definately help. It won't wave a magic wand over all articles and make problems vanish, but it will definately help. Besides, it'll be nice if we're not continually providing MSM with ammunition to shoot us with, so to speak. Gazimoff 16:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

    By this proposal, the anonymous edit being held to await a review in your example is already being prevented right now, because that article is already going to be under semi-protection. So there is no gain in the sense that you seem to think that BLP protection is being improved by this proposal. MickMacNee (talk) 02:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

    "because that article is already going to be under semi-protection" That statement is simply false. Flagged protection is about much more than just BLP. There are many classes of article (for example articles related to evolution a number of which I regularly work on) that have problems with disruptive editing by anonymous editors. Most of those articles are not protected in anyway because our current protection mechanisms are pretty draconian since they ban anonymous editors from contributing. Flagged revisions are a way to improve the reliability of all the encyclopedia. BLP is just an area that needs the help particularly badly. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

84. Something needs to be done, and a trial has few drawbacks. I think a practical sampling of this proposal is what is needed to bring absolution to a debacle that has already continued for far too long. Let's give it a try. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonymous Dissident (talk • contribs)
85. Qualified support. Only by actually seeing how this works out for us will we resolve some of the questions. Two months with the flagging as a protection-style option (which is honestly how I think it should be used) will give us some (but not all) of the data we need to work with. Daniel Case (talk) 14:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

    And I would add that citing "anyone can edit" as a principle for opposition is foolish as, as others have pointed out, we've long since moved away from that. If we really insisted on it, we wouldn't have protection at all and we would never have ended IPs' ability to create or move articles. If that's really what you want, go here.

    "Anyone can edit" does not imply that everyone can publish. Daniel Case (talk) 14:39, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

86. Support – sgeureka 16:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
87. As an alternative to semi protection.--Patton 17:09, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
88. Support a trial as long as it is more controlled as mentioned in the neutral section. The whole point of a trial is to see if it will work or not. Most of the people that oppose this seem to have a problem with the whole "flagged" idea. I believe that it would be in their best interest to have a trial, so they could point to something and say "Look - we tried it and it didn't work, and here's why..." I believe it is also important to make sure that the trial is stopped, with everything back to normal at the elapsed time. I think a major concern among some of the opposers (to the trial) is that a trial is just an excuse to get it turned on. This should not be a concern and every effort to make sure that it is done fairly (if implemented) should be taken. I know that sounds obvious, but I mean that the proposal should actually have some fairness mechanisms built in. Jkasd 17:21, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
89. Support - I'm unconvinced that patrolled revisions will work. But as that doesn't actually affect what people see and its just a trial, its not particularly problematic IMO. Mr.Z-man 18:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
90. Support Better than nothing. Iain99 21:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
91. Support with conditions. The promotion to reviewer should not be automatic, but done in a similar fashion to rollbacker rights. A cursory review by an admin is preferable to automatic promotion because it will hopefully catch a few over-eager, good faith contributors who have the minimum level of edits, yet don't have the experience needed to be an effective reviewer. If this proposal is successful, discussion on the requirements for promotion should obviously take place before the trial. The trial should only allow the proposed protection scheme on BLPs. -Atmoz (talk) 22:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
92. Support, I'm not convinced this is the optimal solution but would like to see a limited trial. -- zzuuzz 22:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
93. Support - Won't know how this works until we give it a try. -Marcusmax(speak) 00:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
94. Strong Support per Jennavecia. Willking1979 (talk) 02:11, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
95. Weak Support, I don;t like flags for everything, but this seems like a good compromise. One problem with it I see is the gaming that could come about with vandals keeping Autoconfirmed editors from making changes to a page by vandalizing a flagged page when there is a shortage of "reviewers" around. How about just making everyone Autoconfirmed a reviewer... only people with deep knowledge on how the wiki works will be able to figure out how to use the feature anyways. Also, do not support "trial==something we will do forever since it is now policy" position. --Rayc (talk) 02:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
96. (This is rather a long personal meditation, but I make it here because my oppose !vote generated a good bit of discussion and think it necessary that I explain why I am abandoning part of it.) Well, I never thought I'd end up in this section. I was watching college basketball and working on some comments for Misplaced Pages Review, which I will continue to read and enjoy, even as most WRers haven't any love for me at the moment, a bit ago when I received an e-mail from an individual who suffered some legitimate harms as a result of what were, it seems, inaccuracies in our article about her; she was asked by someone here to recount to me her story toward the end of making real what it was suggested was for me purely an academic exercise (although we've had some issues with claims of real-life identities of late, I am convinced of the truth of this one). Perhaps it's because I'd taken my nightly sleeping pill, but I was, I must say, moved more than I thought I'd be (particularly because I was convinced that I had a full appreciation of the BLP problem, which I was convinced was vastly overstated and about which, I was convinced, I shouldn't care). I'm still not convinced that the project won't suffer significantly from the adoption of the system at issue, I continue to fear that what is adopted as a trial will never be overturned, no matter its consequences, and I'm certainly not going to become a BLP absolutist, but, having been affected by what I read (I hope not out of weakness), I can't hold rigidly to the position I articulated (or tried to articulate) below; I'm still propose to use a balancing test, but I am led to wonder whether the weight I was assigning to the harms that might befall real people was a bit off, and I find that I can't reasonably object to a trial of a middleground solution. Joe 04:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

    Thank you for taking the time to look into the issue further and rethink your position. FloNight♥♥♥ 13:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

    Deep respect. It's not easy changing your opinion in situations like these, where it sometimes looks as if there is only black and white. To do so, as transparently and vulnerable as you have done, takes guts and pride. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:28, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

97. Support. It's a good trial and I don't see how replacing article protection with flagged article protection should cause idealogical controversy. Estemi (talk) 04:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
98. Support. Come on already. Mahanga 07:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
99. Support a step in the right direction. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
100. Support. Do it. Do it now. Xymmax _{So let it be done} 13:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
101. support- I don't really understand flagged thingies and am worried it might inhibit article changes, but if it's not across the whole wiki, it won't be too constraining. And if it's just a trial, why not?:) Sticky Parkin 18:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
102. Support - I supported flagged revisions with the thought that this is where I wanted it to go. The planned flagged protection will make a great alternative to page protection in the long run on many pages, particularly BLPs, and help open up the wiki where it currently is simply not practical. In the long run (though not currently planned in this trial) I do also believe that flagged protection would be helpful for current borderline cases where protection would be declined due to the side affects of regular protection, but enough disruption is happening to be frustrating and time consuming. Camaron | Chris (talk) 20:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
103. Weak support. I will support this, though I do fear the idea that this will pave the way for more restrictions in the future involving flagged revisions. Malinaccier (talk) 02:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
104. Support - There cannot be any harm in trying something. We need some actual data, and if it doesn't work, oposition will get it reverted. - Trevor MacInnis (Contribs) 05:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
105. Support - We need a trial. I disagree with patrolled revs, but if they work, then so be it. — neuro 10:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
106. Cautious support Some features of the proposed configuration may require serious changes in the code of the FR extension. I am not sure they can be made quickly. So a lot of time may pass before the configuration is switched on. I think smth simpler would be better. Ruslik (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
107. Support as a first step. Risker (talk) 16:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
108. Support a trial. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
109. I've no problem with a trial run. Some things can only be discovered in practice, not in theory and discussion. Master&Expert (Talk) 17:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
110. Support. Ottre 17:29, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
111. Suber-strong support: I support any implementation of Flagged Revisions, but this is by far the best proposed. Dendodge Talk 17:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
112. Support A trial of selective flagged protection is definitely preferable to the previous flagged revisions proposal, and we should have done patrolled revisions a long time ago. Steven Walling (talk) 18:23, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
113. Support Anything that moves the project toward protecting people from the consequences of having ill-motivated individuals editing their articles is good. Hasten the day. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
114. Support. Using the flagging software to protect the integrity of articles (especially BLPs) while compromising as little as possible the principle that "anyone can edit" is a Good Idea. Such flagged protection and patrolling is considerably more flexible than semi and full protection. The trial proposed is an excellent way to explore this flexibility. There may be unforseen problems such as backlogs, overdeployment and so on. However, the only way to see if these concerns are genuine, rather than a chimera, is to go ahead with a trial. Geometry guy 22:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
115. Support Per all of my support for stuff like this, generally a flexible way to use FlaggedRevs like protection.--Res2216firestar 05:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
116. Support FlaggedRevs would be a great way to improve Misplaced Pages's image in the world ending the 'Misplaced Pages allows anyone to edit any page and anyone can add nonsense' s**t. -- Sk8er5000 (talk) 07:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
117. Support. Let's do this.--Berig (talk) 15:04, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
118. Support - As Misplaced Pages grows in popularity, the number of bad faith edits grows exponentially. Something like this needs to be done eventually to prevent to community being swamped by this. The only question is whether there are enough Wikipedians to keep up with the number of edits that need patrolling. A 2-month trial is a good way of finding out. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 18:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
119. Support because I'm getting tired of the gazillions of discussions and polls about flagged revs. Let's try it and then have a discussion that's based on actual data and not on hypotheticals. The debate shouldn't be a philosophical or abstract one. We need to know if from a purely pragmatic point of view this is a net positive and we won't know until we try it. Pascal.Tesson (talk) 22:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
120. Support - Borofkin (talk) 02:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
121. Support Captain panda 04:05, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
122. Support Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
123. Support GlassCobra 04:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
124. support This may likely not deal with the most serious problems we have regarding BLPs and related problems, but I'm willing to give this is a trial run. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
125. Half-hearted support. While the concerns of Scott MacDonald and Short Brigade Harvester Boris are very much well-taken, I ultimately side with Lar's view that this is marginally better than nothing. Moreover, I hypothesize that the application of flagged revisions in some form is more likely to hasten than to block future, more useful applications (though I could be wrong). Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:27, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
126. Support henrik•talk 07:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
127. Support If we don't try it out in the first place, we'll never know how to fix it. Lectonar (talk) 08:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
128. Support. Looks good. — sephiroth bcr 08:13, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
129. Support — Just Do It. This is needed. Cheers, Jack Merridew 08:28, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
130. Support - This seems a neat, efficient way to implement the plan, and goodness knows we need to do something to deal with the endless vandalism. :-) I'd like to final decision on the requirements for reviewer status before this is implemented, however. Colds7ream (talk) 18:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

     See Wikipedia_talk:Flagged_protection_and_patrolled_revisions#Post-poll_discussions. Cenarium (talk) 18:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

131. Support, I'm willing to give this a shot. PeterSymonds (talk) 09:22, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
132. Support. Ironholds (talk) 09:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
133. Support. I'd prefer to see a wider implementation, but if this proposed trial finally means people will agree on testing the extension without drawing premature conclusions, I'm all for it. - Mgm| 10:59, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
134. Support Amalthea 13:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
135. Support, I opposed flagged revisions but this is a much better idea. -- M2Ys4U 15:21, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
136. Strong oppose If there will be those who oppose enabling the full flagged revs, at least enable '(or trial) this. fahadsadah (talk,contribs) 16:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

     I take it you either meant to say "strong support" or to put this in the section below... –Drilnoth (T • C) 16:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

137. Support I would happily trade the immediacy of edits going live for the ability to edit pages that are currently protected. --Waldir 16:27, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

     And, neatly enough, you won't usually need to trade the immediacy of live edits to edit the protected pages! –Drilnoth (T • C) 16:28, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

138. Support. Dovi (talk) 17:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
139. Support This will let us see if such a system could work. Computerjoe's talk 18:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
140. Support I fully admit I'm not an editor of articles where there is likely to be the possibility of abuse, I think it will be helpful in my scope and elsewhere. We lose little by a trial; much more by inaction. --Der Wohltempierte Fuchs 18:32, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
141. Support A very moderate, inoffensive trial - let's get started and see what happens.—greenrd (talk) 21:03, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
142. Strong Support --Analytikone (talk) 00:42, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
143. Support with reservations as one of the few people who originally wrote up the whole idea of flagged protection in the first place, I also understand many of the weakness of the proposal myself, so this is a good chance to see how it actually preforms. When I wrote the flagged protection proposal, I did it on the basis so that people can get familiar with the system, and we can get some good experimental data about flagged revision in general and work from there. If this passes this will probably be the one of first proposal that uses flagged revisions on the English Misplaced Pages, but I certainly hope it would not be the last as I could see more potential for flagged revisions beyond just the flagged protection myself depending on how the trial goes. Patrolled revision is a passive system so I see no reason to oppose it, at least in theory, I'm not too sure about how would a developer implement it. 山本一郎 (会話) 01:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
144. Support - Ealdgyth - Talk 14:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
145. Support I think, this will reduce restriction to IPs. Misplaced Pages is not the 💕 that anyone can edit long time ago. Carlosguitar  15:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
146. Support. Sopoforic (talk) 16:38, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
147. Strong Support Getting the English Misplaced Pages on board with this project is long overdue and very welcome (to this editor). --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 17:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
148. Support, a useful extension of our ability to control vandalism while making it easier for people to edit articles. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
149. Support, at least we'll have some data to make informed judgements ;) EyeSerene 19:32, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
150. support - just about anything to move this beyond discussion to action. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
151. Support - let's see how this works out, but if people cannot validate their own revisions (like reverting vandalism and such), we'll be doubling our workload because we need one person to fix the problem and another to validate that the fixer has fixed it. IMHO, if it gets too much, the trial will not be continued. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
152. Support. This should have been done LONG ago. Those who oppose this proposal are harming Misplaced Pages. End of story. JBsupreme (talk) 00:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
153. Support: This looks like a pretty good tool and goodness knows we need more options for dealing with persistent problem editors. It has worked well for the German WP, and I'm happy to see a trial here. Sunray (talk) 08:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
154. Support - strong support with proceeding on this basis; there will be a possibility of review and tweaking later. Sam Blacketer (talk) 15:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
155. Support A valuable tool that should have minimal problems. — Moe ε 21:05, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
156. Support - I read over the details a week or so ago, and I like the idea. Steve Crossin /₂₄ 00:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
157. SUPPORT!!!! - This will end mindless edit wars, like the on at United Football League (2009). Standleylake40 (talk) 01:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Strong oppose Flagged protection is a bureaucratic disaster in the making which fundamentally undermines the contention that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. There's no reason to bother going thru a "trial period" because it is a lousy idea. Furthermore, we just did a poll on this a few months ago where this idea was rejected. So why are we back here again? -- Kendrick7 17:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   When did we have a poll on Flagged protection? Are you sure you're not confusing this with Flagged Revisions? Fritzpoll (talk) 17:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Flagged protection uses similar techniques, but it's very different in spirit from 'classic' flagged revisions. The purpose is to use a flag for pages meeting the requirements of the protection policy, instead of protecting them. It opens up Misplaced Pages, instead of closing it to editing. Patrolled revisions has no effect on the version viewed by readers and is merely an enhanced way to monitor pages, such as low-profile blps. Cenarium (talk) 17:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   What is the difference, really? Too many articles are left protected for too long as it is. This is just getting flagged revisions in by another means. It's even worse -- creating wishy-washy protection means real disputes will never get resolved because there will be no pressure to do so. -- Kendrick7 17:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   It means that everyone can contribute to more articles. If the protection policy applies, this shouldn't happen for longer than it does now, but in the intervening time, everyone, including IPs and newly registered users will be able to suggest edits. Nothing more extensive than that. Fritzpoll (talk) 18:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   It means many pages will simply remain locked in The Wrong Version essentially forever. Editors may already suggest consensus edits via {{edit protected}}. Why complicate a system that is already working well? -- Kendrick7 18:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Arguably because it isn't.  :) Fritzpoll (talk) 18:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment: This oppose seems to apply only to the flagged protection part of this proposal, not to patrolled revisions, which, like new page patrolling, are essentially just a way for recent changes patrollers (and watchlisters etc.) to communicate with each other, and which do not affect which version is displayed by default. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

2. Oppose as unneeded bureaucracy and a dangerous step down the slippery slope towards a full-fledged version of flagged revisions. This nonsense must be stopped in its infancy. Articles should be edited in the now, not through a backlog. Flagged anything undermines the spirit of Misplaced Pages as a free-for-all encyclopedia. ThemFromSpace 18:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment: This isn't about flagged revisions... please see my comment for details. –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment: This oppose seems to me to apply only to flagged protection, not to patrolled revisions, although this isn't clear. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Do you mean "free-for-all" as in a chaotic situation where everyone is on their own, or where its "free" (as in free license) for everyone? If its the former, I don't see why that's desirable (whatever happened to collaboration?), and if its the latter, I don't see how flagged revs will affect that. Mr.Z-man 18:45, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

3. Strong oppose. It's been said already, but flagged revisions are not compatible with "the 💕 that anyone can edit". The practical effect will be that IP editors and casual readers are not allowed to fix gross errors (such BLP violations) on a flagged page without getting permission from the regulars, which could result in more damaging BLP violations sticking. Experience with new page patrol flags says this will immediately get backlogged; same deal. At the same time, the current proposal would exempt regulars from any inconvenience related to the proposal - cabalism that will be seen as such by outside editors. We've just been through the Obama incident, complete with a story on Fox News, so it should be plain how easily we can be made vulnerable to assertions of such cabalism. Moreover, the assertion that this would reduce the amount of pages with editing restrictions is troubling doublespeak - flagged protection would surely be used mainly as a "solution" where actual protection is considered infeasible, leading to more restricted pages, not fewer. All in all, even a trial demonstration is likely to be harmful to the wiki. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment: This isn't about flagged revisions... the "patrolled revisions" feature won't have any effect on a reader of Misplaced Pages. IP contributions to pages (as long as they aren't semi-protected) will be visible immediately. The only significant change is that it will be easier to patrol BLPs and other highly sensitive articles by having a list of edits to them in one place so that the changes can be reviewed. Having the list won't cause the edits not to show up until its reviewed. –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   That's not what the proposal currently says: "version viewed by readers by default is the latest flagged revision." So, no, the edits won't show up until reviewed. -- Kendrick7 19:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   That is for flagged protection, and only applies when IPs edit semi-protected pages or when any non-admin edits a fully protected page. This is explained more fully in the table below; I believe that the sentence that you pointed out is unclear (although correct me if I'm wrong). Autoconfirmed users will still have edits visible immediately in most every circumstance, and the handful of times that they wouldn't would be when editing protected pages. –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   (edit conflict)Righto -I can only comment on the proposal that actually exists, and the proposal that actually exists says that IP edits to pages with flagged protection will not be visible (to actual readers, of which there are many more than the total number of Misplaced Pages editors) until someone makes them visible. And, for the record, if a random IP removes BLP-violating material, and their edit doesn't immediately show up on the article served to actual readers, we have in no sense improved anything; we have made it worse. The fact that we would have a nice report of things made worse is not a compensation. — Gavia immer (talk) 19:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   For flagged protection that is true, IP edits will have to be "reviewed" to be reader-visible on protected pages... but right now, IPs can't edit protected pages at all. It would actually give them more freedom in what they can edit. And patrolled revisions will have no effect on the visibility of edits. ––Drilnoth (T • C) 19:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   What I mean to say is that IPs can edit BLPs freely, without the need for a "review", the same way that they do now unless that BLP is protected. –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:33, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Right now, IPs can edit freely on any page that isn't fully protected, semiprotected, or cascade protected (and they can't move move-protected pages or start any new ones). If this proposal is adopted, there would be another new class of pages IPs couldn't edit, at least without getting permission from the regular editors. And patrolled edits do have an effect on the visibility of edits; that's rather the point, that they wouldn't be visible (except to Misplaced Pages's regular editors) without a permission flag (from Misplaced Pages's regular editors). The fact that you and I could see the edit beforehand wouldn't change the fact that everyone else would be served the old version of the page. If the IP edit is a BLP fix, or a vandalism fix, or the like, then choosing not to display their edit, even temporarily, is not acceptable. Requiring them to have such fixes approved is not acceptable either. — Gavia immer (talk) 19:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   I'm not quite understanding what you mean by "another class of pages"... only pages that would currently be semi-protected or fully-protected will have flagged protection on them, no other pages. And patrolled revisions doesn't hide edits at all... it just creates a list so that there's another way for Wikipedians to patrol edits to highly sensitive pages and check new edits, reverting them if needed, not to patrol the edits and "approve" them. This isn't flagged revisions... did you read the whole proposal? –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   We should admit that flagged protection will probably (eventually) be used on articles that would not currently be semi-protected. An advantage is that edits do eventually get flagged unless they are reverted. Edits won't just go unapproved forever. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Pardon me for nitpicking a post that generally supports me, but in view of practical experience with new page patrol logs here, and flagged edits on de.wiki, it's likely that some edits will be delayed effectively forever - there's almost certain to be a backlog, and delays of more than a few days, on any article edited heavily enough to warrant restrictions on editing, effectively are forever, if other editors can edit freely in the meantime. — Gavia immer (talk) 20:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   As I understand it there is no branching of the versions. Anyone who wants to edit has to edit the latest draft version. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   That's also my understanding; sorry if I wasn't clear enough. If one editor needs their edits approved, and another does not, and they are both editing the same article, and they happen to disagree - which has been known to happen from time to time, even on articles where there's some sort of dispute - then the editor without flagged editing restrictions has a large advantage, because they can always immediately make their preferred version available - without any action on their part other than to edit - and the editor who's subject to approval of flagged edits cannot. That's bad. We shouldn't pretend that this will never happen. — Gavia immer (talk) 21:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   True, but what really matters is what stays in the end. --Apoc2400 (talk) 21:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   On a semi flagged protected page, an edit by a reviewer, is automatically reviewed only when the previous revision is. Thus if there is a dispute between a reviewer and a non-reviewer, the reviewer will need to manually flag his/her preferred version. However, edits by the non-reviewer will appear in special pages as unreviewed, so other reviewers will notice them, review them, signal the dispute to admins, etc. In those cases, the standard dispute resolution mechanism should be followed, the reviewer status is no exception to 3rr, including flags/deflags, and if s/he 'unreviews' edits by the other user that have been reviewed, it would be an abuse of the privileges. Full flag protection can also be used in those cases, admins only can validate. It has been proposed to reduce the requirements for protection, or to semi-protect all blps in the past. Likewise, it will probably be proposed to reduce the requirements for semi flag protection. But doing so will require community consensus. Cenarium (talk) 22:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   I think the reviewer first flags all edits, so no unflagged edits are present and then makes his or her own edit which will be autoflagged (worst case scenario), or is that prevented ? Mion (talk) 22:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   (e/c)You've not understood - BLPs aren't going to be automatically flagged with flagged protection, so IP edits will be immediately visible as they are now. The patrolled revisions flag is passive, and has no effect of the visibility of edits. So the only BLPs where IP corrections won't be visible immediately are those where they cannot currently edit anyway. Fritzpoll (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Of course they will. They risk of getting sued by an LP because we failed to protect their biography sufficiently will eventually mean this new protection will be used on all BLP's by default. -- Kendrick7 20:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   If that was going to happen, wouldn't all BLPs be semi'd or even fully protected already? –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Re backlog: I hope that tools such as Huggle will eventually be modified to automatically mark revisions as patrolled. That way, patrolling will in most cases be no extra effort; instead, it will save time by coordinating efforts. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 14:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

4. I'm pretty sure I've explained before why I strongly oppose, and my reasons remain the same. We're barely keeping up with flagged newpages, after all. DS (talk) 21:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   apples and oranges. We're keeping up just fine with {{editprotected}} and {{editsemiprotected}}, and flagged protection basically replaces those in a much cleaner way. The patrolled revisions is passive, so it won't interfere with people trying to edit. Are you talking about something else? --Thinboy00 @055, i.e. 00:18, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

5. Opposed Although I see people above saying it's not flagged revs, essentially it's the same recycled proposal. It still requires someone to flag a revision before it shows up to readers (honestly, nobody else really matters in the discussion). If this is suppose to "replace/succeed" regular protection, then it will have the same pitfalls. Many articles that are hardly watched are currently semi-protected and letting people edit but requiring someone to flag it will have no difference whatsoever. "Full" flagged protection will do nothing to end content disputed except keep the wrong version visible, same as now. Meanwhile, the edit war continues. The idea of full protection is to stop the warring and force them to the talk page. Then there's the extra work this creates: as I understand it we'll still need to revert vandalism but it just won't be "shown", so now we need a user watching a certain page 24/7 just in case an edit needs "approval", which leads to more backlog. Admins will have to deal with the "full" one, and if it's mostly just the admins who currently handle protections then there will be a major backlog there. To say nothing of what happens when it comes to "de-flagging" an article (which I image will gather as a backlog just as semiprotected pages currently do, which currently sits at Fall 2007 for those interested). So there's my little schpeel. -Royalguard11(T) 22:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Semi-flag-protection instead of semi-protection means that IPs and new users can edit, but it gets delayed. There will be a list of unflagged revisions so it will not take forever. If the backlog keeps growing endlessly, then the trial must be considered a failure. --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   This is not intended to replace existing protection, but to provide an alternative. Semi-protection can be used in cases of particularly high levels of vandalism, and full protection in cases of unstoppable edit wars. Although there is little purpose to edit war on a fully flagged protected page, that would be similar to edit war on a draft page. I think full flag protection would help to find a consensual version, but we'll see, this is a trial. If admins have too much work at validating edits, which is similar to make editprotected requests, we can create a usergroup specifically for that. Admins don't have to deal with each edit though, they validate a revision only when there is consensus for it on the talk page, or it's non-controversial. We can set an expiry for flag protection too. Cenarium (talk) 22:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   I would put money down on people continuing to edit war on a "full" flagged page. As long as they see a difference, they will continue to fight over it. It's not about being seen as right, it's just about being right. You can set expiry dates for protection now too, but that doesn't happen all the time. And creating another new user group with pseudo-admin power? As the theory goes, if you are good trustworthy enough to handle some admin powers, then you should be trustworthy enough for all, and that's the reason proposals to split up admin powers have failed (save rollback, the least controversial one). -Royalguard11(T) 16:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment: This oppose seems to apply only to the flagged protection part of this proposal, not to patrolled revisions. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   I'm not really sure why this is a joint poll because the second proposal is completely different from the first one. In any case it doesn't matter because an oppose is still an oppose, unless there's some voting requirement that I am unaware of that disqualifies my vote because I haven't made a good enough argument for my case. You might want to be a little more careful, someone could interpret your little "comment" as coming from some self-appointed "voting official", or as a subtle insult. -Royalguard11(T) 22:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Sorry about that! I have no intention of looking like an official nor of insulting anyone, nor of implying that your vote is invalid in any way. It's my understanding that this is a discussion and a poll, not a vote; as such, it's not only the word "oppose" that counts; I and other users are also interested in the rationale you supply with it. If the proposal is implemented, feedback from this poll may guide details of how that is done; and if it is not, feedback here can guide the development of future proposals if any. It seems to me that one possible result of this poll (depending on how it goes) might be an indication of support for one but not both of the parts of the proposal. One purpose of my comment is to alert you to what your comment seems (to me at least) to mean, so that you have an opportunity to clarify it. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

6. Oppose. I would support patrolled revisions alone, and could be persuaded to support flagged protection for currently protected articles only despite the page locking problem, but I have to oppose the proposal as stated. Certes (talk) 22:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   I don't understand, what in the proposal as stated are you opposing? --Apoc2400 (talk) 23:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Multiple objections: it is unclear what sort of page will be flagged; the technical problem I mentioned above; complications arising from one view of WP for editors and another for readers; risk of putting off new and IP editors by making them feel ineffective or second class; a successful trial on whatever pages are chosen may not mean flagging is appropriate elsewhere. Basically it feels wrong to me (and I gave more explanation than many support voters). Certes (talk) 00:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

7. Oppose I hate the whole concept of Flagged revisions and every aspect of it. Do you really want to volunteer your time to check millions of edits, which are mostly done in good faith? I fear that this trial may evolve into a permanent practice so I must oppose a trail. There are really better substitutes for filtering out bad-faith edits than filtering all edits. -- penubag  (talk) 22:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   "Do you really want to volunteer your time to check millions of edits, which are mostly done in good faith?" Err... isn't that what dozens of people do daily with things like Huggle? Do you think reverting vandalism, spam, and nonsense is a poor use of time? And, eh, a little good faith that when people say it's a trial, it will be a trial, would be nice. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   "millions of edits" - how prevalent do you think our protection practices are? Fritzpoll (talk) 22:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Edits are already continually checked, with recenchanges, watchlists, etc. But those systems are not as efficient as they once were, with the high number of edits on a ever-increasing number of pages. Most edits are unreviewed, and we don't have the resources to improve this. Patrolled revisions allow to detect little-watched articles and then monitor them by comparing with a previous sure version (in most cases, it won't be the previous version). So it gives us a way to monitor the evolution of an article, without actually having to check every edit, which we are unable to do. Cenarium (talk) 23:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment: This oppose seems to perhaps apply to the flagged protection part of this proposal, but not to patrolled revisions. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Oppose I appreciate the significant distinctions between this and the various flagged revisions proposals that have been advanced, and I commend Cenarium, et al., for continuing, in view of their perception of a problem, to work to find some scheme that will command the support of the community, but I can't get behind even this. It is widely accepted, I think, that there attends any system of this sort some harm—and not just theoretical, in the rejection of one of our principles, about the non-absoluteness of which I agree with the supporters—to the project (toward which see tens of past discussions; I've set out parts of my own analysis elsewhere, but I don't imagine that it would be useful for me to aggregate them here), and so we are left to consider whether the ills that seeks to address are so grand that the net effect on the project of our adopting flagged protection and patrolled revisions should be positive; continuing to believe that the prevailing construction of BLP is too strict and that we do, on the whole, too much to protect living subjects, and so apprehending no serious problem with the current system, and thinking that the effect of the general content-compromising vandalism that this system might otherwise prevent is de minimis, I resolve that question in the negative. Joe 23:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

   I think this must be the most despicable statement I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages. You're advocating causing real harm to real people in order to uphold the principle that anyone's edit must be visible right now. Kevin (talk) 00:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   He is not advocating real harm. He's weighing the consequences of adopting the present proposal and coming out in the negative: He believes that most people interpret the BLP policy too strictly, that it is too generous to LPs, and that the proposed system offers few benefits. (Furthermore he says so in grandiose language, so his reasoning must be correct!) Far from being despicable, I think he sounds reasonble, even though he didn't explain how he came to hold his opinion and even though he didn't convince me. Ozob (talk) 01:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   If I'd undertaken to explain how I came hold my opinion, I'd have consumed a many more paragraphs to little effect (the harms—and there are at least some is not, AFAICT, disputed—have been enumerated by others elsewhere, and my offering why I assign to them the values I do isn't—and, the matter's being one of personal values, shouldn't—going to persuade anyone to oppose; I can offer only that I hope people are employing a balancing test and aren't thoughtlessly and illogically elevating one group of harms over another solely because one group are cognizable, carrying with them human faces that evoke emotion). Joe 02:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Not the most charitable read, that. As I made clear—or at least meant to make clear—I do not regard the continued restriction of what was in short form an unqualified right of editing ("about the non-absoluteness of I agree with the supporters") as inherently problematic, and I do not rest my opposition on a small-minded defense of some principle to which I shallowly hold reflexively; I do not deny that there are those who are situated on my side of the flagged revisions debate (and probably of this one as well), but I do not appreciate my being lumped in with that number. My point was that—and this is an issue about which there is no question, it is my sense—there are benefits that inhere in a system of open editing, and that even minor tweaks to that system have some negative effect on our overall achievement of our mission. That mission, of course, is a humanitarian one, driven by the idea that the free dissemination of information is a good thing, from which follows that anything that obstructs the maximum distribution of content that otherwise meets our encyclopedic standards is a bad thing, one that harms real people, our readers. So too is the libeling of (or, to some, the inflicting of emotional distress on) a biographical subject bad thing. Everyone weighs those opposing concerns differently (and even my own weights are inconsistent; on one of my utilitarian days I might determine that causing significant harm to a single biographical subject is morally preferable to making Misplaced Pages .01% less effective to each of its millions of readers, but I don't know that I always feel that way), and it may be the latter should always prevail, but we cannot pretend that the former don't exist. Joe 07:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   "we do, on the whole, too much to protect living subjects" .... you have got to be kidding. Really, there is not much more to be said in response to that, except "get out of the way" ++Lar: t/c 04:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   My !vote isn't going to stop anything, and I'm not really out to persuade anyone, the philosophical arguments's having been debated to death over the past few months, but I feel good having taken a moment to stand athwart history yelling "Stop" (and that's all the use I have for William F. Buckley). I am wrong much more than I am right on-wiki, but I am happy to say that I was amongst those who were concerned about the elevation of BLP to policy, expecting that well-meaning overreach would follow, and I, who wishes the project well, fear that we opposing will be shown to have been right some months from now. But, hey, I recognize that I'm in the minority here (although not on BLP generally, I'd suggest, suspecting that there does not exist a consensus for the strict operation of BLP that now controls), situated opposite many good folks (I've always respected you and have been pleased to support five requests for permissions for you across en.wp, meta, and commons), and I've no inclination to do more than offer the small discursive protest I have here. Joe 07:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Time will tell, I guess. Props to you for having changed your view and struck your oppose. ++Lar: t/c 20:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

   Good! I'll start up an article regarding your personal life, Joe, and compare you to a rapist, and let's see how it lasts under your "anything goes" mantra. seicer | talk | contribs 04:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   My life at the moment is such that very little harm would befall me from your libeling me in a Misplaced Pages article, and given that I have done a good bit of writing on why we are wrong to treat rape as a crime more serious than any simple physical assault, a crime of the perpetration of which one shouldn't ordinarily be embarrassed, I would be irked much less than the average person by your accusing me of being a rapist. But I readily concede that I my position would change were Misplaced Pages doing me serious harm. That's not inconsistent with my broader submission; it is not unusual that there should be things that one wishes not be done to him/her but that he/she wouldn't hesitate to do to others (and I would fully expect that Misplaced Pages should ignore my entreaties, even as I mightn't to be pleased with that outcome). Joe 07:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment: This oppose seems to me to apply only to the flagged protection part of this proposal, not to patrolled revisions. Kevin, please avoid jumping to conclusions about what someone is advocating. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Oppose. If this is passed I will flag all "on wheels" edits. Imagine a sleeper account racking up good edits so he can "flag" his vandalism as approved. 149.254.218.20 (talk) 01:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   This just reaffirms what I and other supporters have been alluding to: long-term vandals and veteran sockpuppeteers are scared that it will actually stop them by making it extremely difficult to even use "sleeper accounts" by merely registering them en masse and waiting. More than a mere autoconfirmed sleeper account would be needed to vandalize a flag-protected article in any effective way. So I continue my support, especially in light of whoever this dude is. --slakr 03:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   I think I see an IP that needs a block. ++Lar: t/c 04:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Heh...

   Anyway, I've removed their !vote from the numbering; revert if that's a problem. –Drilnoth (T • C) 12:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Oh, no! A system that might force sleeper accounts to have to make a whole bunch of productive edits! ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

8. Oppose due to Patrolled Revisions aspect. Creates a large scale workload for passive flags that also does not work with Special:NewPages (which is under-manned anyway). I'd fully support a "Flagged Protection" only implementation. Aaron Schulz 05:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Could you elaborate on this a bit? Are you saying there is an implementation (code) difficulty or a workflow difficulty, or something else? For the record, your oppose is the only one so far that gives me pause, since it apparently is trying to point out why this approach might not work... Thanks! ++Lar: t/c 17:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Both, though mainly workflow issues with the "patrolling"; all edits in namespace is a lot, especially for a passive flag. It would be hopelessly ill-maintained. It would also add special page and more UI clutter (like history pages saying "]sighted by x] ". I'd strongly like to stick to the smaller scale protection-like aspects of the proposal. Aaron Schulz 20:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Most edits in recent changes are looked at now, usually I believe by more than one person. With passive flags, a backlog does no harm. The backlog at newpage patrol is in my opinion largely pages which have been looked at and judged to be borderline. As with new page patrol, this will help divide the workload so that edits are generally looked at once, rather than randomly by perhaps zero to 10 (or whatever) recent changes patrollers, 0 being a problem and anything more than 1 largely duplicated effort. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Plus, I would actually argue that having an in-wiki form of passive flagging makes for less overlap in rc patrol, thereby making it more efficient. It makes it easy to script through the API, and it's all totally optional. It might be an idea to expire away patrol log entries after a while if those make too much database clutter, but I doubt that it'd be too much of a problem anyway. --slakr 19:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

9. Strong oppose Flagged protection is a disaster in the making which fundamentally undermines the contention thatMisplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit.This will cause huge back logs.Admins/reviewer can have thier own viewpoint,thus only those edits will pass which are in line with thier views.And some pages will be left without edits for months.Some of the best edits comes from Ips even.This will turn[REDACTED] into a ethnopedia,where reviewer/admins ethincity will decide what to add and what not to.Beauty of[REDACTED] is ,"anyone can edit" as long as they follow the rules.yousaf465'

   Admins will not be the only ones able to review edits. IPs cannot edit protected pages at all at the moment - this proposal will allow them to at least contribute to these pages. This is an opening up, not a closing down. as for backlogs - how much stuff do you think we currently protect? Fritzpoll (talk) 13:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment: This oppose seems to apply only to the flagged protection part of this proposal, not to patrolled revisions. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Comment::Do we have a defination for reviewer ?yousaf465'

   Actually, IPs can edit protected pages, just not by themselves. You just figure out the edit you want to make, and go to the talk page and use {{editprotected}} or on semiprotected pages {{editsemiprotected}}. However, in practice there is little likelihood of your edit being implemented. Try it sometime. Apteva (talk) 01:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

   Well, you are assuming that IP users know how to use that template anyway. 99.9% of casual readers don't bother to figure it out. NuclearWarfare _(Talk) 01:09, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

10. Oppose due to poor trial design. This is not a trial with a control group, so it can't produce useful data. At the end, all we'll have is another discussion with no meaningful data. Either A) come back with a proposal that has a real control group and a real way of comparing outcome differences between the two groups or B) come back with a statement that no trial is viable and this is proposed as a permanent change and get consensus for a permanent change. I don't think the underlying proposal will actually help anything, it will just create overhead. But I might be wrong - a trial would produce data, this is just a waste of time. GRBerry 21:59, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

    Comment:agree with this user,no control group exist for the trial,with which we have to compare.Even a small experiment requires control.yousaf465'

    Since flagged protection will not be enabled on all articles, only on a subset on a case-by-case decision, the simplest control group will be those articles where it was not enabled. An even better control would be the same set of articles where it was enabled, but comparing the levels of edits and vandalism in the periods where flagged protection is enabled to the periods where it is disabled. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

11. Oppose - While I believe that flagged revisions could be a good thing, I don't agree with elements of this trial. What is the point of patrolled revisions? If the flags don't actually do anything, we shouldn't be wasting our time. It just creates another backlog. The point of flagged revisions, in my mind, is to ensure that revisions that are unacceptable because of vandalism, BLP violations, or other reasons are never seen by the general public. I understand that some people think this is a bad idea, which is a fair opinion to have, but here it looks like you have attempted to get around their objections by making flagging have absolutely no bite whatsoever. I also agree with GRBerry's comments about the trial design. How will we know if these changes have any effect? Perhaps we should do something like "If the title of the article needing protection begins with A-M, use regular protection, if the title begins with N-Z, used flagged protection."--Danaman5 (talk) 04:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
12. Strongly Oppose. Now that I have learned what flagged revisions are, I can now say that I completely oppose the idea. Implementing such a system would turn Misplaced Pages from a free resource that people can work collaboratively on (which is what makes Misplaced Pages most attractive to people willing to edit it), to a strict bureaucracy where only the most well-respected people can even have a chance to contribute to. So, just for the record, I oppose flagged revisions, and if such a system is implemented on Misplaced Pages, I, and surely many other editors and members, will not return. This proposal, if implemented, will surely destroy Misplaced Pages. -Axmann8 (Talk) 05:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

    And what is your problem with this particular trial that merely allows IPs and newly registered editors to contribute to pages that are normally protected, as well as giving us a passive feed of information about edits to BLPs? For someone following the line of "anyone can edit", I am baffled that you would oppose this system, which allows more people to contribute to Misplaced Pages. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:05, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

    Comment:This oppose seems to be about flagged revisions; it's not clear whether it applies to this proposal, which is flagged protection and patrolled revisions. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 14:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

13. Oppose. Adds unnecessary complexity. I see a lot of NIH, where no one wants to implement a change because they didn't think of it themselves. I do think we need better scrutiny of each edit in a more organized fashion, with a system for flagging bad edits and good edits, but we need to focus more on the released versions, and make that the version that is reviewed. A better solution would be to buffer the changes until a few editors had a chance to flag them as good or bad before they became visible, but not to require that they be flagged, or reviewed. Trying to protect the Ted Kennedy article from embarrassments is like trying to keep someone from throwing their shoes at you - it's going to happen, and it's protected by the first amendment. Apteva (talk) 19:00, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

    What? I think throwing shoes would cross the line from "free speech" to "aggravated assault". However I would like to hear more about your proposed alternative (namely how it differs from what's being proposed), if you can find some place to explain it in greater detail. — CharlotteWebb 15:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

    My understanding of throwing shoes is that in that particular culture where it is done it is an extreme insult but does no physical harm, and as such would fall under the category of free speech, if they indeed protected free speech. The flagging of edits was brought up at WP:RCP talk, and apparently is rudimentarily implemented as documented at Help:Patrolled edit, and implemented for all autoconfirmed users for new pages. This would extend it from marking the edit as patrolled to allow multiple editors to mark it as good or bad. It is entirely possible that just marking edits as patrolled is adequate. All Dutch edits are patrolled for autoconfirmed users. Apteva (talk) 19:17, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

14. Oppose No measures in trail for success or failure. Zginder 2009-03-21T05:32Z (UTC)

    We'll work on this before the trial, we won't run it in a hurry. One could adapt some for example from those. Cenarium (talk) 17:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

15. Oppose out of concern that this half-measure (really, quarter-measure or 1/10th measure) will preclude more meaningful action on the moral nightmare of Misplaced Pages's BLP policy and enforcement. The BLP policy doesn't need technical rejiggering like this. Instead it needs utter destruction and rebuilding from the ground up so that we don't have thousands of poorly-watched articles that can do real harm to real people. If this is passed it's too likely that folks will say "ok, we've fixed BLP" instead of doing something truly effective. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

    Policy proposals will come later. This is a proposal to give the technical ability to admins to protect pages in a different way. Classic protection is not optimal to protect BLPs and as you say, we have many BLPs that are underwatched, and patrolled revisions can improve the monitoring of those. Cenarium (talk) 17:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

    SBHB: You know what? I agree with you. You're right. This is not enough, and BLP as it is now is a moral nightmare. And this is a truly weak solution compared to others that have been proposed. And I've in the past opposed stronger ones as not going far enough. And yet, despite all that I supported. We do need to do something truly effective, but I've come to believe that this is better than nothing and we need to at least move in the right direction. As for those who don't think there is a problem? Some of them will never be convinced... write them off, they are in the way and need to be removed. And maybe some will be convinced... there have been some changes of view here in this discussion. ++Lar: t/c 18:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

    Strong Oppose Assuming I understand this correctly, Semi-flagged protection is enabled by default which defeats the purpose of using it as an alternative to protection Alexfusco 17:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

    Semi flag protection is not enabled by default, it can only be enabled by an administrator, alternatively to semi-protection. Patrolled revisions is a different matter entirely, it can be used for all articles, but is completely passive. Cenarium (talk) 17:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

    Ok thank you for the info Alexfusco 22:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

16. Oppose with regret. I've been sitting on the fence here, trying to convince myself that something is better than nothing. But, regretfully, I conclude that this is indeed nothing - if not a step in the wrong direction as far as BLP victims are concerned. The bottom line is that 2/3 of our BLPs are underwatched, and as long as they remain open to "anyone can edit and instantly anyone will see" we open subjects to an unacceptable risk (and reality) of malicious abuse. There is nothing here to limit that. Some are supporting this because "something must be done, and this is something" - but I just don't see that it is. This is a fudge to get a minority of callous idiots on board, so we can get something past the ridiculous consensus requirements. Further, I fear that this will in fact delay doing anything worthwhile as people will think "we've done something". I can't see how this gets us any further than allowing admins to protect and semi-protect; but those tools are way underused. All that will happen here is a very small number of articles will be subject to a lesser degree of protection. Well meaning, but useless (at best).--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

    Do you think that a magic proposal will fix the blp problem once and for all ? At any rate, it's certainly not the purpose of this proposal. You would like something to be done for blps, fine, go ahead, propose that blps be all semi-protected, to have a csd for unreferenced blps of weak notability, etc. And lo! nothing will actually be done. You are opposing something that will improve our monitoring of all those under-watched blps you mention. And they're just no going to disappear any time soon, so we have to cope with them. And for the other part, you say it yourself, semi-protection and full protection are 'way' underused, then consider this: don't you think admins would be more inclined to use flag protection ? I won't comment on the other parts of your comment. Cenarium (talk) 19:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

    It is somewhat expected that flagged protection will eventually be extended to all BLPs. Then it will protect them about as well as semi-protection. I think it will depend on whether the flagging backlog can be kept short with so many articles under flagged protection. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:54, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

17. Opppose. I have no issue with the two unrelated parts of the proposal, they might be of benefit if tested against what we have properly. I just have to oppose on principle, to point out to the many supporters who either have no idea, or simply just don't care, that this proposal does not do what they want, and are wasting everybody else's time pretending they give a shit about it. MickMacNee (talk) 16:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
18. Oppose - This proposal offers no indication of how reviewers will be chosen apart from mentioning that the status may be auto-granted. I am very worried that gaining reviewer status will become very difficult to achieve possibly like gaining administrator privileges. This is the encyclopedia anyone can edit - I want to make sure it stays that way. Cedars (talk) 10:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

    I think that it may be granted in a similar way to Rollback... a simple request, and an admin can accept or decline it. I'm not sure what will be done for the trial, but that's how I think it will be if/when it's an official process. –Drilnoth (T • C) 13:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

19. Oppose - Just don't like the concept in general. OhanaUnited 13:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
20. Oppose this additional layer of bureaucracy as contrary to the basic principles that have made the English Misplaced Pages the #1 non-portal site in the world, creating unnecessary extra obstacles to participation, and directly interfering with my own work on Misplaced Pages.—S Marshall /_Cont 19:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

    I'm just curious... what are you doing that this would interfere with? –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

    Translating biographies of living people from foreign-language wikipedias. Personally, I'm curious about why almost every "Oppose" has replies from the "Support" camp?—S Marshall /_Cont 20:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

    I think it's because most of the supporters are just wondering what the reasons for opposition are. I really don't see how this would interfere with translating pages from other languages... flagged revisions might, but this is completely passive. It won't make the article "invisible" until it has been patrolled or anything like that. For all intents and purposes, when you're creating new pages, you shouldn't notice a difference, except for a tag or two in the edit history, unless you are also working in vandalism-patrolling. It's kind of like how editing any page makes it appear in Special:Recentchanges, but you don't notice that happen because it doesn't affect your ability to edit the article or make it immediately visible. –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

    Since a minor incident involving a slightly overenthusiastic new pages patroller, I've found it necessary to check every single revision that's made to articles I've translated for the first month or so. This will create work for me, and I dislike it.—S Marshall /_Cont 20:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

    How would this create more work than what has been in place? I don't mean to be a pain or anything, I'm just curious. –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

    More diffs for me to go through every time I log in—it's simply time I don't want to spend. I'd also like to draw attention back to the "unnecessary obstacles to participation" and "contrary to the founding principles" part of my objection.—S Marshall /_Cont 21:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

21. Oppose Under this scheme, as I read it, if there's anonymous vandalism, then even if it's reverted, the page cannot move forwards until reviewed. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 08:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

    Only the visible version will not advance, and the flagged protection is planned to be used on few enough articles that the backlog could be kept low—and if not, this is only a trial, which will be limited to its two-month duration. Also, if we ever got revision text hashes, the software could be modified to recognize this situation and automatically review versions that constitute reversions to reviewed revisions. Just explaining some of the rationale, don't feel pressured. :) {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 14:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

22. Weak oppose This is too damn complicated! Flagged protection, semi-flagged protection, full flagged protection, and patrolled revisions. I think this is much too big to do all at once. And what I hate most is the backlog. There are 2.7 million articles here - I can easily see the waiting list for edits in the tens or hundreds of thousands. The German Misplaced Pages is much smaller than us and it took them nearly half a year to get all preliminary reviewing done. I like the German style of what I've seen of it: very basic. IP users see the most recent flagged/reviewed/whatever revision, but logged-in users see the most recent altogether. In short, I kind of like patrolled revisions, but not flagged protection. Reywas92 19:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
23. Oppose pending specification of "reviewer" promotion and demotion criteria. I can't agree to something that is incompletely specified, and the stringency of the reviewer promotion process is key to how effective or disruptive this change will be. Set it too low, and there'll be no point to enabling the feature; set it too high, and the wiki will become a bureaucracy overseen by a small number of vested users. I'd also insist on a specification for revocation of reviewer rights; this is the kind of power over content that can easily be abused.--Father Goose (talk) 03:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
24. Weak Oppose I find myself agreeing with OhanaUnited. Spencer 00:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
25. Oppose Reason 1: I agree with Reywas92. These are over-complicated. And on the German Misplaced Pages, I found this to be quite annoying which could scare off newcomers. --The New Mikemoral ♪♫ 00:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
26. Oppose same reason as I did a couple of months earlier: too vague, poorly documented, questions on how-to and what-if remain unanswered... NVO (talk) 03:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
27. STRONG OPPOSE Look at these complex rules. WP:NOMORE, WP:BURO, and WP:CREEP scream out as I read these rules. For anyone wanting to see how much flagged protection will suck, try editing http://en.wikibooks.org. Tonight I was introduced to this terrible system, which made up my mind. Where can I get one of those no flagged edit banners? Ikip (talk) 03:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

    I do not recall any Wikimedia project has ever adopted flagged protection, unless you are referring to flagged revisions. In fact I don't think the code has even been written yet, since this system works in an entirely different way than the way it works on Wikibooks, please read the proposal carefully first. 山本一郎 (会話) 04:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

    Thanks, I read the proposed page. What is on wikibooks is the exact same technology, just a different name. Ikip (talk) 05:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

    It uses the same software, but the implementation is fundamentally different. It's proposed to be used as an alternative to page protection, temporarily or indefinitely, with two levels: semi/full, while on Wikibooks, it's used on every page. It's not rules, it's the way the extension works. New users will hardly notice this, and even less be affected. There are no 'unflagged' banners. The only instance where a reader will be aware of the extension is when seeing a flag protected page with an unreviewed latest revision, which would be globally extremely rare. Cenarium (talk) 12:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

    Yep; it's the exact same techonology, but is used in a completely different way. It's not just a different name. –Drilnoth (T • C) 13:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

28. Strong Oppose - First off, I am absolutely opposed to the Flagged Protection- it is just a watered down version of Flagged Revisions that will discourage participation by new users. As for Patrolled Revisions, I don't have a huge problem with it in and of itself, but I'm worried that it will be the start of a creep into flagged revisions, which are an abomination. Nutiketaiel (talk) 14:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

    How will flagged protection discourage participation by new users? The system would only be enabled on pages where semi-protection or more would be justified—and flagged protection is vastly more open to new users, who cannot edit semi-protected pages at all. While I share your concern that flagged protection might lead to a more restrictive system, that would require further consensus to implement—so you can support this proposal while opposing that hypothetical one. {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 16:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Neutral

1. I have a minor concern with the proposal. I'm willing to support, but I would like one thing clarified. I want to make sure that this trial can be used to make accurate measurements of the effects of flagged protection and patrolled revisions. In order to do this, we need a control group.

   For semi-flagged protection and flagged protection, we need to keep a group of articles semi-protected or fully protected so that we can compare them to flag-protected articles. This will let us make precise measurements of how much better or worse flag-protection is than ordinary protection. For example, it might be that semi-flagged protection decreases the number of IP edits, or it might not. It might be that semi-flagged protection decreases the amount of vandalism, or it might not. I hope that semi-flagged protection does not decrease the number of IP edits and decreases the amount of vandalism, but I don't know (and neither does anyone else) until we have some statistics. If we have a control group, then we can count IP edits to articles in the control group and count IP edits in the flag-protected group. If the semi-flagged protected group has a lot fewer IP edits, then semi-flagged protection discourages anonymous editing, and we will know by how much; if not, then it does not discourage IP editing. Similarly, we can count the number of reverts made via rollback, anti-vandalism tools such as Huggle, bots such as VoABot II, or editors who put "rvv" or "vandal" in the edit summary. If there are many more such reverts made to semi-flag protected articles than to semi-protected articles, then semi-flag protection does not discourage vandalism as much as semi-protection; if not, then semi-flagged protection discourages vandalism as much as semi-protection.

   Similar concerns apply to patrolled revisions. It might be that patrolled revisions improves the quality of an article, or it might not be. Again, in order to make this precise, we need a control group. (It seems to me that this will be more difficult to measure than the effect of flagged protection.)

   I suggest that for the trial we switch roughly half the semi-protected and fully protected articles to semi-flag protection and flag protection. For example, we could implement the proposal for all articles beginning with the letters A-M, the numbers 0-4, and the symbols !, @, $, %, ^, &, *, (, ), and -. We could leave it off for all articles beginning with the letters N-Z, the numbers 5-9, or any other symbol. At the end of the trial period, we would switch flagged protection and patrolled revisions off for all articles and gather statistics. Then we can have an informed debate that moves beyond mere platitudes and opinion. Ozob (talk) 01:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   A control group sounds like a good idea to me, randomized or pseudorandomized, and your method of pseudorandomization (letters A–M versions N–Z) sounds more-or-less OK to me though with real disadvantages in comparison to real randomization. I don't think we would just massively switch a bunch of articles from semi-protection to semi-flagged-protection. Instead, someone would ask the admin who protected the article, or perhaps the protecting admin would just change it themself. Having a control group was discussed in some of the other discussions of trials. One idea was to first ask the protecting admin whether they were willing to have it switched to flagged protection, then afterwards apply randomization to either switch it, or not. However, I'm not sure that a control group is essential, and there may be difficulties in attempting to implement control groups within the Wikipedian consensus system where everybody's doing what they think is best for the project at a given moment. Basically, I guess people will experience the feature and decide whether they like it or not and there will be another discussion. I don't think that's such a bad way to proceed. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   One of the reasons why I suggested separating the articles by first letter is because the system is very, very simple. You'll know at once which group an article is in; you could even build a bot to go around and fix articles that have been improperly placed in the wrong group. I suggested half of Misplaced Pages because that gives us a good idea of what sort of backlogs may develop, but for most of the statistics we're interested in, like rate of vandalism, we could trial it on a very small number of articles (even 100 would probably give good information). Ozob (talk) 22:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

   Perhaps the only practical way to arrange a control group like that would be by imposing it technologically, e.g. for the developers to arrange that it's impossible to flag-protect articles in the N-Z range. I'm not sure whether it would be practical to do it by bot: bots are not supposed to editwar or do things against consensus. Maybe if there were a strong consensus for a particular control-group arrangement it might work. I'm imagining that even if there's generally consensus to have a control group, there might not be consensus to apply that to some particular pages. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 12:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

   If there's consensus for a trial, we'll work out the technical details and conduct of the trial at /Implementation and /Trial subpages, and the guidelines on reviewers, flagged protection and patrolled revisions... Cenarium (talk) 02:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

2. Flagged Protection, used sanely, (ie, dropped for 3 month periods on articles with recent vandalism, etc.) would be OK, though I still dislike it. I'd really prefer this wait until the New Page backlog is sufficiently clear. I still haven't seen evidence of lots of people stepping up to work on that, so I see no reason why it would be different here. Quite honestly, we just are not going to get enough people doing the work for this, and it will be left to a few dedicated editors who really ought to be doing other stuff. Patrolled Revisions, while something that is going to generate an enormous backlog, is something that we really ought to have, as it will save BLP enforcers from just doing what they do now: Generating a list from Category:Living people and searching through random articles for BLPvios. NuclearWarfare _(Talk) 03:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Also, can someone create a section in Misplaced Pages:Rough guide to semi-protection titled Misplaced Pages:Rough guide to semi-protection#When to use flagged semi-protection? NuclearWarfare _(Talk) 03:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   Still a little premature for that :) Patrolling in the 'patrolled revisions'-sense should automatically patrol in the NP-sense, and reviewers are autopatrolled, so automatically NP-patrolled. It may well have the effect to decrease the NP backlog. Cenarium (talk) 02:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

3. (Switched to oppose MickMacNee (talk) 16:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)). I just want to know why to unrelated proposals that are aimed at doing two totally different things (not counting the obvious catch all 'improve the pedia') are being voted on together. They both have different aims, and trials of each will have totally separate measurement criteria for determining success. If there is genuine support for either, then test it properly and clearly. I would love to see flagged protection tested properly, and see if Jimbo's many pronouncements on the new dawn of openness would actually become reality if implemened (a quick and simple test being whether any articles are actually downgraded in protection level), but I simply don't see why that is being packaged with the stuff about passive flagging, which is a whole different issue. The only commonality is that they both need the extension turned on (and it doesn't even look to be that simple either). Proposing and polling separately would also reduce the incessant and repetitive confusion that seemingly infests all things FR related. MickMacNee (talk) 04:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   It's a trial of one configuration of the FlaggedRevs extension. The distinction that causes the two names is primarily procedural: each subset will be used in different contexts. It's a two-pronged system: wide flagging as checkpoints, complemented by protection-policy-governed reviewed pages. The combination matters, and in any event the procedure used to propose something shouldn't invalidate the proposal. {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 04:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

   I am not seeing how the 'combination matters'. And its clear from some of the opposes, the lumping together of two separate concepts is helping nobody understand it. MickMacNee (talk) 14:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

   I view this as being overly-complex and so weak that it is basically useless. The bottom line is that 2/3 of our BLPs are underwatched, and as long as they remain open to "anyone can edit and instantly anyone will see" we open subjects to an unacceptable risk (and reality) of malicious abuse. There is nothing here to limit that. Some are supporting this because "something must be done, and this is something" - but I just don't see that it is. This is a fudge to get a minority of idiots on board, so we can get something past the ridiculous consensus requirements. Further, I fear that this will in fact delay doing anything worthwhile as people will think "we've done something". I can't see how this gets us any further than allowing admins to protect and semi-protect; but those tools are way underused. All that will happen here is a very small number of articles will be subject to a lesser degree of protection. Well meaning, but useless.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC) Switching to oppose.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

4. After clarification, I was going to support however the creator of the extension finds it to be a bad idea and thus I cannot support but I do not see any other issues Alexfusco 22:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Voting is evil

• I'm not convinced many of the supporters have even read the proposal they are supporting here. With regard to passive flagging, many are going on and on about the 'anyone can edit' crowd in their votes, and haven't seemingly caught on that this proposal doesn't change that idiom one bit, so that 'ignorant unenlighted rabble who just don't think of the BLPs enough' aren't actually losing anything in this proposal at all. If anything, if the passive flag system is a roaring success in reducing BLP vios (no suggestion of how this is going to be measured for a passive flag system anyway, making the whole concept of approving for a trial a bit of a nonsense), the case for progression to an active flag system is actually weakened. It even has auto-confirmation of reviewers, something most who advocate strong FR were I thought dead set against. In fact, in terms of fixing anything resembling the so called BLP problem (and preventing the really scary sounding issue of 'the lawsuit' which is always 'just around the corner' but never comes, due to pretty obvious reasons), this proposal looks pretty weak, and if I was of the philosophy of some in the support camp, I simply wouldn't support for that reason. There's baby steps and then there's meandering aimlessly in the dark. MickMacNee (talk) 03:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Any proposal that includes flagged revisions will at this point get my support, because the opposition to this general thrust, at this point, is getting ridiculous. I am tired of waiting. Get on with it. Get this implemented, whatever it takes. ++Lar: t/c 04:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

You really should read what you're voting on. You won't get what you want from this proposal I am quite sure, not even close (bar the fact the extension will be 'on', but per Jimbo and the mega poll, we already have consensus for doing that). You may even have to wait longer, or find that support for taking the next step reduces, if this is shown to be effective. MickMacNee (talk) 04:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Yep. I supported a number of far better proposals than this one. They didn't happen yet. I want this technology turned on. Once it's running we will move this in the right direction. But right now we have people in the way who think we do "too much" to protect BLPs. That is a BIG problem. They need to be gotten OUT OF THE WAY. Or this project is doomed. Maybe it already is. ++Lar: t/c 04:59, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Great. Let's throw in a few hyperbole to try to bat down the opposition. Things like "They need to be gotten OUT OF THE WAY" and "this project is doomed" don't really help anything, as they are both just opinions, that happen to differ from other people. FWIW, I think flagged revisions are certainly worth a try, and don't understand why so many people oppose such a trial, but I don't agree with your over-the-top attempts at intimidation. RoscoHead (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Rosco! Following me around again? Really, you need to get a better hobby! But anyway... quoting someone I admire, even if I don't agree with all the time: "Either serious and successful reform will come out of this or many of the loyal will have to admit that the site has become ungovernable and that no reasonable likelihood of internal reform remains." That's not hyperbole, intimidation or what-have-you, for it has come to that. Don't think so? How many BLPs have you worked? You have no idea about how serious of a problem this is, although at least you are willing to support...many of the opposers feel "we do, on the whole, too much to protect living subjects" which is just inane. Thank goodness Joe at least was a mensch and changed his views. ++Lar: t/c 20:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

No, that is not a quote, it is a paraphrase, and not a very accurate one at that. And yes, such forceful words coming from an admin IS intimidation IMO. But you already know that. RoscoHead (talk) 22:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a quote? Here is the link to WR, it's word for word, check for yourself. ++Lar: t/c 04:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll explain that when you explain how it's OK to advocate getting people "out of the way". Because personally, I'd rather see[REDACTED] die than see anyone "gotten out of the way" just to implement flagged revisions. RoscoHead (talk) 06:56, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The BLP problem is a big one, so big that it can end this project. It needs to be resolved. People need to lead, follow, or get out of the way. ++Lar: t/c 15:54, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes I agree, it is a big problem. I don't totally agree with your second assertion though, and even if I did, there's a HUGE difference between people "get out of the way" and people being "gotten out of the way". I ask again for you to explain how it's OK to advocate getting people "out of the way"? RoscoHead (talk) 01:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

*sigh* RoscoHead, you haven't done anything on this page besides comment on Lar's wording. Do you support this proposal or not? Commenting solely on Lar's wording isn't particularly helpful and raises the tone here, which is already shrill with concern over a controversial topic. Lar, while I know you feel strongly about this, it's more likely to help you achieve your goals if you act more cooly about it and don't talk about people "get out of the way". This proposal already has a high degree of support, so there's a way to move forward. Controversy only slows things down and mires us in the current, undesirable situation, and abrasive phrases, such as the one RoscoHead criticizes, only fuel controversy. Letting go of emotions like this will help us achieve our goals. Please, both of you, let it go, it doesn't matter here. {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 02:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Nihiltres, but I would really like to see that comment re-worded by Lar. I have no problem with him saying "People need to lead, follow, or get out of the way" (even though I don't agree with it). But when his comments escalate to suggesting others need to get these people out of the way I think it needs to be addressed. Millions of people read WP every day, it only takes one wacko with a gun to misinterpret his comment - "But officer, an admin on Misplaced Pages says these people need to be gotten out of the way". RoscoHead (talk) 02:05, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It is my sincere and good faith belief that Rosco's primary purpose here on Misplaced Pages is to dog my steps, rather than to meaningfully participate in this discussion, or anything else, to any significant degree. (expect some denial to follow, and enjoy how it's wikilawyered, he's pretty good at it) That's fine, my cross to bear for my past sins as it were, and shame on me for rising to the bait at all, especially in an important discussion like this. That said... I think it's fairly obvious that I did not mean that any violence should be initiated against anyone but if it will help, I'll be explicit in disavowing it. What I mean by "gotten out of the way" is that if it comes to it, I am prepared to see people that will not do what it takes to protect living people from the serious harm that our BLPs can do to them be disinvited from participating here. I hope it does not come to that, but if it does, so be it. I apologise if that gives offense to anyone and it is not my intent to deliberately inflame this discussion or deliberately give offense to well meaning folk but I feel very strongly about this matter. I hope that clarifies matters. ++Lar: t/c 04:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

If someone else replies to you first, does that mean he loses his turn and has to wait until you post again? Ozob (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification Larry, but why not just change the original comment from "need to be gotten OUT OF THE WAY" to "need to be disinvited from participating here"? The comment is still there, still emphasized, and the one person that doesn't find the meaning "fairly obvious" may just be the wacko with the gun. What if they don't read further for the clarification? RoscoHead (talk) 02:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

We've lost one too many administrators lately over the lack of BLP enforcement. Get it on already or be prepared to see more resign in disgust. seicer | talk | contribs 04:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

What extra measures for BLP enforcement is actually in this proposal then? I see only a more efficient method of RCP, but still with its inherent flaws, and with the added admin burden of monitoring reviewers actions against an as yet unwritten guidance document. MickMacNee (talk) 04:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

You can use flag protection to enforce the blp policy. For the purpose of the trial and in the interest of agreeing on an implementation, I proposed the requirements to be those of the present protection policy. In the future, if we continue, you can propose to lower the standards for (flag) protection for blps. However, this will happen if and only if there is consensus to do so. It's a first step because if you'd propose something like this now, it would very likely be rejected, or end up in no consensus. It has always been the case, so far. One thing at the time. As for reviewers being autoreviewed, it would seem odd that they can review, so included their own edits, but aren't autoreviewed. Cenarium (talk) 14:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Any article that needs FP to enforce BLP should already be semi'd, so it is not enhancing the BLP policy enforcement, it is simply making its enforcement less brutal. And I am unsure what you mean by autoreviewing, I was referring to automatic granting of the Reviewer bit. MickMacNee (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Those who want to have naught or very high auto promotion can make their point when the requirements will be discussed. It makes the enforcement less brutal indeed, thus admins will probably be more inclined to apply it for certain blps than they would be with semi-protection... Again, it's not a policy proposal, this will be discussed later, if this proposal is adopted. Cenarium (talk) 19:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

We've lost one too many administrators lately over the lack of BLP enforcement. This sounds dubious. Ikip (talk) 05:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Consensus Time

I've flicked the 'wiki tech' mailing list a notification of the above, because it seems to me that this is clear enough, with strong enough support to warrant flicking the switch. If I could work out how to link directly to my message, I would - but basically I've asked the technical folk to have a look at the proposal and Poll again, and if they concur that support is such that the extension can be enabled, to do so. We'll see how that goes :-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Current count is 152/27/4, which is 83% supporting the proposal. I think Erik said the bar to pass was 67%. MBisanz 05:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Wait ... we have many things to work out before the technical implementation, see Misplaced Pages talk:Flagged protection and patrolled revisions#Post-poll discussions. Cenarium (talk) 10:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

So what is the time frame for that to take place? 219.90.243.174 (talk) 10:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)