Browse history interactively ← Previous edit Next edit →Content deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 16:39, 2 April 2009 editBritishWatcher (talk \| contribs)Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers18,860 edits →A space for explaining the elephant in the room ← Previous edit		Revision as of 19:24, 2 April 2009 edit undoRockpocket (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users24,891 edits →What now?: commentNext edit →
Line 454:		Line 454:
	:We'll have to have a cutoff eventually. But in the absence of any other activity from the moderators, I don't see how a rigid adherence to this deadline would help anything. --] <small>] • (])</small> 11:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)		:We'll have to have a cutoff eventually. But in the absence of any other activity from the moderators, I don't see how a rigid adherence to this deadline would help anything. --] <small>] • (])</small> 11:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
	::I agree. We also need a third moderator. ] ] 11:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)		::I agree. We also need a third moderator. ] ] 11:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
			::: The purpose of this process, as I understood it, was the address the three individual problems that need to be resolved. I have consistently made the point that an evidence based process is doomed to failure. There has been mountains of evidence offered over the preceding years, but how much value one puts on any given line of evidence vs another is entirely arbitrary, and varies greatly between individuals with different perspectives. We all know what the evidence is, we simply disagree on how much it matters in the face of opposing evidence. Therefore I offered a rational, pragmatic solution based upon the premise that a compromise solution that is acceptable to almost everyone, but favorite to hardly anyone, is the only solution that can ever reach a stable consensus. One doesn't ''need'' evidence to reach that conclusion, a simple appreciation of the positions of the opposing camps is sufficient. ]<font color="black">e</font>] 19:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

	== A space for explaining the elephant in the room ==		== A space for explaining the elephant in the room ==

Revision as of 19:24, 2 April 2009

WikiProject Ireland Collaboration
Home	Discussion	Related projects	Members	Templates	Statements	Ballot page
Project main page	Discussion	Related projects	Members and moderators	Useful templates	Statements on the problems	Also: Intro text and position statements
Everybody is invited to participate in discussions here. The discussion is moderated by a panel appointed by ArbCom, which currently consists of Edokter and PhilKnight. Moderators can moderate the discussion and delete any off-topic conversation; in particular personal attacks will be deleted. If you have a complaint about a user, please try to resolve it on their talk page first. For any complaints, please always be specific and provide links. Please, for the moment, refrain from discussing the individual Ireland naming options until we agree on a procedure.

Archives

Nov 08 - Jan 09

Feb 09 Mar 09

Shortcut

WT:IECOLL

General and housekeeping

Archiving by bot?

Should we rely on a bot for archiving this page? See details at Wikipedia_talk:SLR/H#Bot.2C_again. — Sebastian 21:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

No. Kittybrewster ☎ 22:18, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Why not? (It's easy for you to say, as long as you don't have to do it!) — Sebastian 07:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I guess we're just following the no rebuttal plan here. Someone proposes a good idea, and all it takes to oppose it is the little word "no". This is not what I had in mind when I signed up as a moderator. — Sebastian 18:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Ireland naming question

Status

ArbCom now officially announced moderators at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Ireland article names#Admin moderators. — Sebastian 20:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

We're still waiting for a third moderator. — Sebastian 08:45, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

And still waiting. Remainer of post moved to #Proposal for 3rd moderator. GoodDay (talk) 19:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

We have a third moderator since Feb 19, so we're complete. — Sebastian 01:28, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Users have been informed 18:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC), deadline to submit statements was agreed below as one week after that time, which is now. — Sebastian 03:27, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

However, there are objections currently discussed at #Deadline for submissions. — Sebastian 15:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Carrying out Edokter's plan

(Headline inserted for better visibility. This was a reply to Sebastian's message of 00:20, 6 February 2009.)

When I volunteered for this job, I had no idea about the complexities behind the whole affair. Until the ArbCom case, there was much discussion with plenty of proposals, but sadly no consensus. Since Remedy #2 started, there has been only discussion about discussion, and I feel we're not getting anywhere. I made one proposal above, which has no responses to date, which is not very motivating. If I am to continue as a moderator, I am going to insist on a procedure that is simple, concise and to the point.

This discussion needs to be based on fact, not opinion. I am going to go ahead with what I proposed above and hold a non-rebuttal debate; I want statements which members can either endorse or oppose, nothing more. I need a structured exchange of ideas, because I do not look forward to have to dig through pages of open talk each day and even try to understand the current state of consensus. I expected to steer the discussion, not to discuss the steering.

When this was sent to ArbCom, people expected a ruling. I believe most members still want a ruling at some level, if only because they are tired of discussion. We can not rule as moderators, but we can guide the discussion, and I think it is time to do so by simply setting the rules instead of asking for them. That is my proposal, and my role as moderator is tied to it. I will say this now before it's too late; I will fail as a moderator and will retire if I am not expected to guide this discussion toward a satisfying conclusion. — Edokter • Talk • 23:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I support this. Its time we tried something, and this is as good an idea as any other. Rockpocket 00:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Thank you for stepping up to the challenge. Since it's your plan, I have no problem letting you take the lead. Are there any objections? — Sebastian 00:24, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. A moderated/closed debate is fine. I think the most important point isn't so much what the process is as that whatever process is followed it be controlled and enforced and that it be conducted with an understanding that there *will* be a conclusion reached at the end. I don't mean to say that any old process will do--just that ultimately someone is going to have to say "This is going to be the process.", pressumably having incorporated the best ideas from the different suggestions made. Nuclare (talk) 13:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I concur eith Edokter's suggestion. (Yes, I expected a ruling.) Just tell us where to debate and what the rules are. -- Evertype·✆ 14:45, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Fine by me. Ben Mac Dui 15:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

That proposal also seems fine to me. Bastun 14:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan, i fully support it. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:46, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I had understood that to be the original plan. Remedy#1 was that we would come up with our own way to reach a decision. (Although, I must add that I had also understood that we had reached the same decision on this matter time and time again since 2002.)

Remedy#1 failed. Remedy#2, I thought, was that ArbCom would tell us how to reach a decision and that decision would be binding for two years. Let's have it (... and lo! we might even arrive at the same decision again for the 7th year running!). --89.101.216.172 (talk) 00:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Very well. I see Gnevin has already set up the discussion. — Edokter • Talk • 15:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Statement process

In order to keep this page tidy and readable .Please create you statements at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statementbyYOURNAME. When you have add it to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Statements in the correct subsection Gnevin (talk) 13:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

If this is to be similar to RfC pages, wouldn't it be more appropriate to have just one page for all? — Sebastian 06:51, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I prefer the AFD style of discussion so I can watch or unwatch discussions and see the related differences between discussions not every change that happens, this page may get quite active. This way is easier to follow Gnevin (talk) 17:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

General statements

Should statements be limited to just the problems or is Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration/Statements#General_statements ok ? Gnevin (talk) 21:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I used 'general' because I had a little trouble categorizingRTG's statement. — Edokter • Talk • 22:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Important ! This a no rebuttal process

I've had to remove 3 comments with in the last day. Please read WP:IECOLL-NOREBUTTAL's. User are requested to indicate their support or disagreement on the statement pages by signing their name. Use the statements talk if you wish to discuss a statement Gnevin (talk) 14:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry ~ R.T.G 17:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

So how do I challenge the erroneous assumption in the propositions that Ireland (country) is the same as Ireland (state)? --Red King (talk) 21:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Use the talk page if you really want to discuss it Gnevin (talk) 21:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

But this is the talk page... Or is there another talk page? --Red King (talk) 21:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Well if I wanted to discuss a point about your statement i would do so at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statementbyRed King Gnevin (talk) 21:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The whole point is not to discuss, but to gather viewpoints. You can create your own statement page (which you've already done). — Edokter • Talk • 23:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I've removed "votes" of editors self endorsing their own statement. Otherwise it's a bit pointless. If it is agreed that one should be able to self endorse for whatever reason, my changes can be reverted back.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 00:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Index of statements

I created WP:IECOLL/watchlist with the links to the 4 pages that are currently in this list. This allows to watch all of them together via Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia:IECOLL/watchlist. The problem, of course, is that that page doesn't get updated automatically, as the above list does. I just thought I'd post this here in case anyone finds it helpful. — Sebastian 22:31, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Related changes, this will show the related changes as statements are added Gnevin (talk) 23:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

That helps a bit, and I now transcluded that page in the watchlist, so at least the WP pages get automatically included. However, the talk pages are still not in the list, which is not good, as can be seen at WT:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statementbyRTG. — Sebastian 02:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Where is remedy #2

Because the Arbitration Remedy #1 failed is this supposed to be Remedy #2? There is no indication this is the status of this collaboration because it deals with the content not with the naming. It seems no action, or any other progress, has taken place on the Remedy #2 front and this collaboration stands independently from Remedy #2. Am I missing something? Where is Remedy #2 for the naming of the Ireland/Republic of Ireland articles, or has it fallen off the radar? ww2censor (talk) 15:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

We have formulated a preliminary procedure and are executing it right now; see the #Index of statements section above. — Edokter • Talk • 16:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Is this process just a ruse?

Is this process just a ruse to ruse to stop the "disruption" caused by the RoI/IRL dispute by pretending that a process is in place to resolve the conflicting viewpoints? I hope this is a genuine process that will lead to a prompt decision but it looks unlikely to me. In particular, the ground rules on the project page state "Decisions for the WikiProject will primarily be based on the consensus of members". Is some one seriously suggesting a consensus will emerge? If no consensus emerges, does that mean there will be no decision (or another decision to make no decision as before)? What reason is there to think a consensus will emerge when it has not done so before? Is there a timeframe for this process? How long will it run? What is the deadline? I think those running this process should answer these questions and set them out on the project page. Participants can then take a view on whether this is a credible process. After all, who runs a project without having a clear timeframe? It goes without saying, I hope the project is successful. It should have credibility. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:AGF much? The 3 Admin's here have offered their time and developed a process to help sort this issue, if you have question feel free to ask them but ask them in a polite way Gnevin (talk) 00:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

What was not polite about the above? They are direct questions - I am asking - Isn't this the place to ask? Regards. Redking7 (talk) 00:10, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Redking7, this process originated here, I don't honestly believe it was intended as a ruse, more of a back up plan. That said, I think setting a timeframe for this process is a good idea. PhilKnight (talk) 00:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Great - I am glad some one agrees with setting a timeframe. I will open a sub-section to ask those concerned re what an appropriate cut-off date is. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Deadline discussions

Deadline for submissions

March 12

(Below is taken from the discussion at #Hello.)

Anyway perhaps we should post on all the Ireland articles linking to this page again (and statement page) and give people a deadline to submit their statements. Because at the moment there seems to be just strong support for one statement, and if thats the case progess could and should be made. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:37, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I think setting a deadline is a good idea. Should we give editors another week? PhilKnight (talk) 00:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Id support some form of deadline like a week, and if agreed someone should really post an announcment on all the Ireland articles so no one is left out and doesnt find out about it afterwards that leads to more disputes. There seemed to be alot more people with problems about the ireland naming issue and in previous debates than here now. I understand some have clearly had enough and a few retired because of it but i do worry there might be some who arrive at the last minute when it looks like the issue is close to resolution and cause all sorts of problems. We need clear announcments on all of the pages to try and reduce the chances of something like that happening. from the page i saw it seemed to get bogged down in long debate about arbcom, so this link isnt very clear. BritishWatcher (talk) 01:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

How about "1 week after it has been announced"? (See Gnevin's statement above and section #Publicity / notice.) — Sebastian 01:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There were a lot of statements to get Arbcom to take the case but they did not take the case... AfD also maintains a poor show of opinions. One week is cutting it fine if you do not announce it on each previously concerned editors talk page and that is often done to provide interest in discussions like this. ~ R.T.G 11:14, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

(Below was posted as reply to the announcement that the deadline has been reached at #Status.)

Hold on!

As I posted below, when editors were notified that the statement-taking process was open, there was nothing in that notice about a deadline. There was nothing at that time in WP:IECOLL about a deadline, and there is still nothing there. If a deadline is to be applied, then please give editors prior notice of it by displaying it prominently at WP:IECOLL. A deadline noted only in the middle of a talk page under a section heading of "Hello?" is a sneak deadline in effect, even though I AGF and have no reason to believe that it was sneaky by intent. This no way to apply a deadline.

I have specifically held off making the substantive statement I wanted to make because I wanted to read through the discussion on existing statements and reflect on them before weighing in with my own. There was there was nothing at WP:IECOLL or at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Statements process to indicate in any way that any deadline had been set, and a

I intend to make my statement within the next few days (I'm travelling, so time is short), and I hope that there will no attempt to procedurally exclude my statement because of a hidden deadline.

For the benefit of any others contemplating making a statement, there should be clear advance warning of any deadline at WP:IECOLL#The_statement_process. Given the length of time this process has been open, I see no reason why there should not be at least 7 days notice. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:16, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

To add to the confusion, Sebastian has been on indefinite wikibreak since 4 March. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

You are right. I had taken some time off, and when I got back I sprang somewhat hectically into action. I am sorry about the confusion this caused. There is no rush as far as I'm concerned. — Sebastian 15:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. So what's the current situation, then? Can I take it that as of now no deadline has been set, and that there will be clear and prominent warning in advance of any deadline that is set? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:39, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes - there is no harm in suspending the deadline at least until the other two moderators get a word in. I also agree that it is only fair to ask for clear and prominent warning in advance. As a "prominent" place, I propose the top of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statements and the body of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Statements process. — Sebastian 16:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

March 31

At #Deadline for decision of the dispute below, March 31 has been proposed as a deadline for submissions. This has been seconded by several people, but opposed in the "vote" section below. — Sebastian 16:16, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Redking7 (talk) 01:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Vote about deadline for submissions

The deadline for statement taking shall be the 23:59:59 (UTC) 31/3/2009. Please indicate your agreement below

Support Gnevin (talk) 15:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. The right result is preferable to the timed result. I havent a clue what is going on here. At the moment we are taking statements with a view to agreeing on a procedure. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Kittybrewster, this is not a viable alternative. "The right result" seems a highly subjective criterium to me. Or do you have a definition for "the right result" that is likely to garner general support? — Sebastian 16:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

The right result is one that works for people. At the moment I am unclear what the statements are being made about or what happens to them. Oppose seems to me a valid response in a vote. Kittybrewster ☎ 16:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose for now. I would have no problem with a deadline of 31 March (assuming that it was properly notified, as Sebastian has promised above), but only if it was clear what happens next. I may have missed something, but I have seen no description of what the next step(s) involve, and it's important to clarify that so the editors know what needs to be done at this stgae to ensure that the maters which concern them are addressed at later stages. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
To be honest, I'm not clear about that, either. I will bring it up at WT:IECOLL/P and will get back to you. — Sebastian 16:27, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Update: There are no plans for further steps. I am very sorry about that. — Sebastian 18:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Support Redking7 (talk) 01:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Support. Please, let's get this show on the road. Everything seems to have ground to a halt.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Deadline for decision of the dispute

It appears there could be some support (per the above) for setting a deadline for a decision at the end of this process. I propose May Day 2009 - i.e. 1 May 2009. If you support setting this decision deadline, please say as much below? Regards. Redking7 (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

2 months seems fair Gnevin (talk) 00:27, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

2 months seems like long enough to reach a resolution. Ive forgotten and i cant see it on the page but did we ever decide a deadline for all statements to be completed? BritishWatcher (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Shall we say 31 March to end statement taking? And 1 May for a decision? Gnevin (talk) 00:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Id be ok with that although the statement process has been open for quite some time already and i doubt many more would be taken. Someone suggested the other day perhaps it should be 1 week after the notification messages were sent out, so 1 more week would seem reasonable to me. That gives much more time for a choice to be made and it doesnt have to be rushed or pressured. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree with a deadline, and 31 March for statement taking and 1 May for a decision seems fair. One week is rushed, seeing as proper notice only went out recently. Bastun 00:52, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't support a deadline for a final decision. I would support a deadline for the end of the statement-taking process, and 31 March seems fine for that, but too many issues have arisen in statement-taking for the rest of the process to be artificially guillotined. I do not know how long it will take to work through those issues, but this dispute has been going on for years. It's more important to make a decision which is clearly reasoned, and in which the issues have been considered with sufficient care, than to make a quick decision. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:14, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I presume this discussion is not about the deadline for submissions of statements which was agreed to be a week from the announcement, but for the overall discussion? I wrote a note about the former at #Status, please correct me if that was wrong, or if there is a consensus for extension. — Sebastian 03:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Your presumption is correct Sebastian. This is about fixing a deadline for a decision on the substantive questions. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 07:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Re User: Brownhairedgirl's statement above - As per Sebastian, "Users have been informed 18:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC), deadline to submit statements was agreed below as one week after that time", i.e. 12 March - so the 31 March deadline suggested is no longer relevant. The deadline for submissions has now expired. The Arbitrators now simply need to finish considering the submissions and make their decision. Arbitrators - Could I ask you to confirm a deadline for when you will be issuing your decision? Regards. Redking7 (talk) 07:16, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

When did you all become March_Hare's ,are you all rushing out some where , where is the fire? The Ireland question has dragged on for years and people want to have a week for statement. Have some patience, I think the 31st is a fair deadline Gnevin (talk) 09:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Well im ok with the 31st if thats what others want but 1 more week seems reasonable enough to me. Statements have been open over month and if we say one more week then thats 2 whole weeks since the notes went out to peoples talk pages / article talk pages. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Statement may been open for a month but I only informed the majority of users 7 days ago. We probably should have informed them sooner but we need to give these people time. Don't worry , you won't be late for the tea party ;) Gnevin (talk) 11:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

When editors were notified that the statement-taking process was open, there was nothing in that notice about a deadline. There was nothing at that time in WP:IECOLL about a deadline, and there is still nothing there. If a deadline is to be applied, then please give editors prior notice of it by displaying it prominently at WP:IECOLL. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I support 31 March 2009 as a deadline for the decision. Arbitrators - Please announce what your decision is. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 01:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Is 1 May the deadline ? Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration#What_are_the_User_names_of_the_3_arbitrators seems to indicate it is Gnevin (talk) 11:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

As to "Is 1 May the deadline ?" - It is. See User PhilKnight's (Moderator) response below. The timetable set out on the project is now agreed. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 09:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Timetable

I added the following section to the text of the ProjectPage because, I believe it reflects the timetable agreed by the Moderators above:

The following are important dates for those concerned with this process:

31 March 2009 - This is the date after which no further statements may be made; and
1 May 2009 - This is the backstop date for this process. If a consensus has not emerged before this date, the three project moderators will close the discussion on this date.

User:Kittybrewster reverted this addition (I've put it back up for now). Am I missing something. Is the above timetable not agreed by the Moderators - Moderators, please let me know if I have misunderstood - the timetable needs to be cleraly spelled out on the project page. Thanks. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 20:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I think Statements are being taken - dunno about what (yet) as a result of which a procedure will be proposed by the moderators and then discussed; that may involve further statements. Kittybrewster ☎ 10:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

As BrownHairedGirl wrote above, it makes more sense to talk about deadlines when it is clear what happens next. I brought it up at WT:IECOLL/Panel#Status; Plan on main page, but we haven't reached a conclusion yet. Since these deadlines are only proposed and not agreed yet, I moved it under the section {{Section link}}: required section parameter(s) missing, which is the same as we did with the other proposed procedures. I also moved them under a section {{Section link}}: required section parameter(s) missing as these deadlines only apply to that question not to the project as a whole. — Sebastian 16:44, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I can't help but be a bit disappointed with this Sebastian. Setting a timetable is a basic ingredient for any credible process - and its not as if 31 March/1 May was an ambitious timetable either. My humble advice is that you and the two other Moderators need to first set the timetable, then work to it - you can decide the outstanding issues after you have set the timetable. Its always impressive how a timetable helps people achieve things. Remeber too that you and the other two Moderators are the leaders here and we are all relying on you. You may need to give the other two a telephone call to thrash things out after the timetable is set. Best wishes and regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

IP Statement

Just clarifying, are IP's allowed to make statements, vote etc? I know I should have more good faith, but in something as important as this, I think its quite suspicious.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 00:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe the IP to be wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration/archive2#Of_voting.2C_IP_addresses.2C_and_fire who doesn't want too create a user name for some reason, I think this IP is ok but no others should be accepted Gnevin (talk) 00:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to AGF in the case of anon IPs, given the many bans in place on socks around Ireland-related issues. Bastun 00:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Two completely different answers. Maybe it's best if a moderator sorts this out?MusicInTheHouse (talk) 01:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Allowing IP addresses brings disadvantages to the community such as that we have to deal with names nobody can remember, and that there will be possible confusion with the accounts Bastun mentions. The only argument I can see for allowing the IP editor in question would be some view of "equal opportunity", but I think this is specious since the opportunity to create an account clearly exists; in fact, I am not aware of any reason not to sign up. I would be open to change this assessment if the IP user sent me (or any of the other moderators) a reason why it is not possible for them to set up an account. — Sebastian 03:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that the idea of an explanation is a good one, but I am concerned about the notion of it being only a private explanation. There may be elements of detail which need to be private, but if the moderators do conclude that there are genuinely pressing reasons why an editor prefers to reveal more about themselves by using an IP address than a username of their choice, then I think it would be fair for the moderators to explain this strange situation as far as can be done without breach of privacy. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree as a matter of principle. Any information that a person wants to keep confidential, and that I would not have known without the person entrusting it to me, is confidential to me. Releasing that information or a single-handed synthesis of parts of that information would be a violation of my pledge of confidentiality. — Sebastian 05:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this sort of situation arises frequently, and can usually be handled quite simply with a brief generalised summary which is agreed with the person concerned. For example, if the reason is "my husband will kill me if I get so far involved in[REDACTED] as to register a username", summarise it as "family concerns" --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion from which I can learn a lot. I am moving it to Misplaced Pages talk:Pledges#Is it OK to summarize statements? and will reply there. — Sebastian 16:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong Sebastian but is this not academic now because as you said "Users have been informed 18:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC), deadline to submit statements was agreed below as one week after that time", i.e. 12 March. No further statements can therefore be made. Its now a question of the three Arbitrators making a decision. Above, I have suggested a timeframe. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 07:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

When I wrote that statement, I assumed that the deadline was a done deal. It was only later that I realized that there are objections against it. See #Deadline discussions above. — Sebastian 16:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I am puzzled by IP not getting a username, but submittng a statement and not becoming a member. Others have become a member but that is it. Never mind; I guess the whole process is bumbling along with feet being dragged. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

So am I. I really can't see any reason for that; my intention was only to be open to any such reason. — Sebastian 16:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Just clarifying, are IP's allowed to make statements, vote etc? This has been discussed before on AN/I ... in fact even in relation to this very debate. Of particular irony is that on that occasion the username-editor that said IP-editors should not be allowed to contribute (because they may be socks!) was, in the course of the discussion, exposed to be a sock himself. In fact the first part of that discussion is that username-editor talking to one of his socks.

I think that the idea of an explanation is a good one ... OK. Why do I not sign up? Because Misplaced Pages is not a social club. It is the encyclopedia that "anyone can edit". I don't sign up for an account because, in my experience, username-editors loose focus on the aims of the project. Their contributions to WP become a social activity and, unwittingly, their engagement in discussions and attitude towards contributions become tainted by a lack of objectivity.

It is clear to me that by not signing up I arouse suspicion among username-editors. Is there any objective reason to be suspicious of me? No. Is there any objective reason to dismiss my contributions without reference to them? No. So why did discussion of me find its way onto this page? Because username-editors don't judge contributions on their merits, they judge them by who they were made by. I arouse suspicion because you "don't know who I am" (in fact by contributing under my IP I am far less anonymous than a username-editor). Who I am is an irrelevancy, just as who you are is. It is the contribution that matters, not the contributor. I don't sign up because I don't want my judgement clouded by the same distractions that I see plaguing contributions by username-editors across the encyclopedia. --78.152.249.182 (talk) 18:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Who you are is of course an irrelevancy; we are all anonymous here, unless we choose to reveal our real-life identities.

However, registering a username of your choice is a mark of commitment to the[REDACTED] project, and also a device which makes it easier for other editors to identify you (a name is easier to remember than an 11-digit number). Registering a username also ensures that your contributions are identified as yours regardless of what computer you edit under, and regardless of whether your Internet Access Provider changes your IP address (most IAPs do not guarantee a fixed IP for residential connections).

For all these reasons, IP addresses are routinely discounted in other decision-making procedures on wikipedia. I have yet to see any reason why this process should be an exception to a principle applied routinely at AFD, CFD etc; instead the IP denounces the whole process of registering a username. That argument may or may not have merit, but in substance it's a call for abolition of the registered-user system, and this is the wrong place to raise that. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Scope (was: Remit of this process)

As I noted in my statement, I am very concerned that this process is not fit for purpose, i.e. it only defines the problem in terms of the names of two WP articles: Ireland and Republic of Ireland.

How will a decision on the names of these two articles resolve disputes about how to refer to the 26-county state in other articles; or how articles such as Economy of the Republic of Ireland should be named?
How can a wide dispute be resolved if it is so narrowly defined?
What cognisance has been taken of the Ireland disambiguation task force, which appeared to be reaching a consensus on a compromise solution that covered all areas of issue and which, notably, attracted considerably more participation by editors than this process?

What thought has been given to any of these questions? Mooretwin (talk) 12:32, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not just articles. There are also hundreds of categories which use the phrase "Republic of Ireland" to refer to the 26-country state, in order to distinguish it from categories referring to the whole Island. There appears so far to be no mechanism in this process for addressing the consequences for all those categories (and for the useability of Irish categories as whole) if the head articles are renamed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:18, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

If I may make a personal comment here: Someone complained about "feet being dragged" above, and I think the above posts are a good example how that happens: A decision is made (in this case by ArbCom as described below), and nobody says a word that they sees a fundamental problem with that. Only two months later, after some people developed a process based on that decision, someone uses brings up this problem to remit the whole process, and immediately two others jump on that bandwagon, and nobody speaks up in favor of the process. ~~This pervasive, destructive attitude is what's holding up our progress here.~~ — Sebastian 19:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I cannot believe that anyone who has seen the level of BrownHairedGirl's contributions to the project could ever accuse her of feet dragging. Lucian Sunday (talk) 20:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I was the one who suggested feet were being dragged towards a conclusion. Being dragged very constructively by BHG who seems to be fantastically well focused on the process. Kittybrewster ☎ 20:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the great reply. I suppose I misunderstood the meaning of the original "dragging" comment and remit my last sentence. — Sebastian 21:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I was not trying to remit anything, just to ensure that the process includes consideration of the consequences which a decision here will have for other articles and for categories. There is a principle with categories that they should if possible follow the naming conventions for the relevant head article if any, and if the two articles under discussion here are renamed then there will be an arguable case for a consequential renaming of the categories. When applied to articles, category names carry no explanatory text or footnotes or hatnotes: they are just bare titles. At the moment we have Category:Ireland covering the whole island, beneath which we have Category:Northern Ireland and Category:Republic of Ireland, dealing with the 6 and 26 counties respectively. This category structure intersects at many deeper levels (e.g. Category:Sport in Ireland includes both Category:Sport in Northern Ireland and Category:Sport in the Republic of Ireland as well as 32-county categories, many of which are in turn sub-categorised into ROI/NI).
Some topics have been covered by all-island articles, some by a 6/26 county split, and some by all three; this structure of thousands of categories allows for logical categorisation of 26-county articles, of 6-county articles, and of 32-county articles, and the existing nomenclature is both unambiguous and consistent with article titles. However, since some editors are determine to remove the phrase "Republic Of Ireland" from article names, we need to consider where this leaves all these categories, and what impact any changes would have on readers trying to use the category system. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Yes indeed. And what we have works well. But I understand that we are not yet allowed to address whether ROI would become "the Irish country", "the Irish state" or whatever. Kittybrewster ☎ 07:55, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

That is not our decision; it was decided by ArbCom at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Ireland_article_names#Community asked to develop a procedure on 4 January 2009 that the goal is to solve the problem of "appropriate names for Ireland and related articles". Since then, there was ample time to raise an objection, but I'm not aware that anybody did so before we decided on this process. — Sebastian 16:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

The way these things are decided is rather obscure from my perspective and I suspect the perspective of most WP editors. I don't recall being given the opportunity to object at that time. Mooretwin (talk) 17:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I understand your objections with the ArbCom process, but that is something you have to bring up with ArbCom, not here. It seems to me the process at ArbCom provides for people to make such statements, and you made use of that opportunity already. I'm not sure if your statement contained that point back then, if it did and was not understood then you don't need to ask for permission to speak: We're all humans here (except for the bots, of course), so if you really don't know what to do, you can always leave a message on an arbitrator's talk page; there has to be at least one of the committee that you trust enough to take such a fundamental concern seriously.

As far as we are concerned, we have to go with the ArbCom decision. If you really feel the decision was wrong then it seems like Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_for_general_clarification is the right place to bring this up. — Sebastian 18:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't the scope of "appropriate names for Ireland and related articles" cover Mooretwin's concerns rather well? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:07, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

It can be seen to cover it. But it can also be read differently, as those of us did who took it to mean only very few articles. In hindsight, it would have been better if we had started with an agreement on the scope of this effort. — Sebastian 18:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

What about a proposal that hasn't been submitted here yet?

(This was originally a continuation of a comment at #Remit of this process above.)

That said, I think you did good work at the task force, and your proposal there met no objection that goes beyond the level of mere "contradiction" in WP:IECOLL#Graham's pyramid. If it also addresses the concerns you are raising here, then I feel it should have a good chance of being adopted here. — Sebastian 17:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

So are you saying it could form part of the outcome of this particular process? Mooretwin (talk) 17:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I would hope so. The process has to be decided by all moderators together, but I feel any good process needs to allow for such an unrefuted plan to form at least part of the outcome. — Sebastian 18:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Might I add, from what I can see Mooretwin's proposal did not gain complete consensus and as that was so long ago and due to the fact consensus can change, I think only this process should count towards the process of solving this problem. That is why we are doing all this statement taking in ultimately!MusicInTheHouse (talk) 18:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Oops, my previous statement was misleading! I thought that Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statementbyMooretwin was the same as his Proposal for an all-encompassing solution. Indeed, that proposal needs to be proposed here according to WP:IECOLL#The statement process in order to be considered; we as moderators can not admit any proposals through the back door just because we like them. — Sebastian 18:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

It is the same! Why do you think it is not the same? Mooretwin (talk) 09:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. I see that now. The reason why I thought it was different was the preamble that you added. — Sebastian 18:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 19:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

If it is constructive it should be welcomed no matter how, where or when it gets into the wiki. Kittybrewster ☎ 20:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course we want to include all good ideas here. But I regard it as part of my task as a moderator to insist on the agreed procedure. ~~It shouldn't be so hard to just put it here.~~ — Sebastian 21:25, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Off topic text added by Purple Arrow was removed from this section by SebastianHelm. For the original text see .

What are the User names of the 3 arbitrators

I understand there are three arbitrators mandated to make the decision. What are their user names? As I have not hear any response from them on this page re a deadline on this process, I would like to post the question on their respective user pages. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 01:38, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

~~Top of the page, in the green box.~~ Sorry, I thought you were talking about the moderators. Regards, Mr Stephen (talk) 01:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

There aren't 3 arbitrators mandated to make the decision, there's just the 3 moderators. PhilKnight (talk) 03:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

PhilKnight - Are these the three moderators?

SebastianHelm (talk · contribs) (Moderator)
PhilKnight (talk · contribs) (Moderator)
Edokter (talk · contribs) (Moderator)

I appear to be a bit muddled. I originally thought this was an arbitration process and that at the end a binding decision would be made. If they are not Arbitrators but Moderators - Does that mean they cannot make a decision but merely act as moderators in facilitating yet more discussion? Perhaps you could give me a steer on what this process of posting "statements" etc will lead to. If you are one of the three Moderators, perhaps you could give us your view on the deadline dates proposed above (31 March and 1 May also). Thanks. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 09:54, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Redking7, yes the moderators are SebastianHelm, Edokter, and me. The process originated with an ArbCom decision, however neither Sebastian, Edokter, or I, are arbitrators, although we are admins. My view is the role of moderator here is to facilitate discussion, and at the end of the process, close the discussion, in a manner similar to an admin closing a debate about deleting or merging an article. There's some discussion over at WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Panel about how the moderators are going to close the discussion, however if all this sounds somewhat vague, that's because we haven't worked out all the details yet. Lastly, I think the overall deadline of 1 May is about right, and I'm ok with giving until 31 March for statements. PhilKnight (talk) 20:20, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for setting the deadlines (although the one for making statements has apparently already expired - see Sebastian's notes above). But frankly, my initial scepticism has, it appears been found to be entirely correct. This is just another discussion forum - no decision will emerge from it - you three are moderators and will have no mandate at the end of this process to make a decision. Lots of editors appear to be under the delusion that this process will lead to a decision "one way or the other" on the IRL/RoI dispute. Clearly, all you three are going to do is facilitate yet further discussion. I will try to let other Users know this so the wider community is not under a delusion (I know some are are). Thanks. Redking7 (talk) 01:05, 15 March 2009 (UTC)Regards.

Redking7, the deadline for statements has not expired -- re-read the sections above.

As the closing of the debate, PhilKnight did not say that the mods had no mandate to make a decision. AFDs, CFDs etc are supposed to be closed by the admin weighing the arguments rather than vote-counting, and PhilKnight's comparison with XFD processes implies that the same practice is intended here. However, in the discussion at WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Panel I see Edokter talking of vote-counting ("a poll") rather than argument-weighing, which is just about the worst way to conclude any decision-making process on wikipedia. :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:21, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

That was just a brainstorm. We look at every method possible to establish consensus. — Edokter • Talk • 01:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Is the WikiProject Ireland Collaboration another ruse?

By way of clarifying matters, I asked a number of questions re the WikiProject Ireland Collaboration on the project's talk page. Some editors (me included) suspected that the process was just a ruse to to stop the "disruption" caused by the RoI/IRL dispute by pretending that a process is in place to resolve the conflicting viewpoints. While it might be unfair to call the process a "ruse" (it is well-intentioned) - the process has little prospect of resolving the dispute. It is simply a discussion forum with three moderators. The three moderators have no authority to make a decision. Broadly, they view their role as facilitating discussion and then closing the discussion. For editors who are frustrated with current Ireland article naming arrangements, my advice is not to simply weight for the WikiProject Ireland Collaboration to make a decision as a substantive decision is not in their mandate. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 01:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you think, to the extent it describes the remit of you and the two mediators etc, is a fair summary of things? Am I missing anything? Thanks again. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 01:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

We have a mandate to "establish a procedure" that will help the community in reaching consensus. But if these procedures fail, the procedure could well mean that the moderators decide the outcome. I just hope it doesn't come to that. — Edokter • Talk • 01:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Redking7 seems to think that "closing the discussion" is some sort of passive act. At AFD and CFD, it is far from that: the closing admin takes a pro-active role in weighing consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, Thanks BrownHariedGirl and Moderators - Yes, I did misunderstand "closing a discussion" - It sounds like the moderators will be able to make a substantive decision on 1 May after all. Well I am glad to hear it. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 11:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Waiting for result, other articles

I thought we were meant to be keeping the articles stable as they are now and only make changes when the result here has been decided. However, over at Irish nationality law User:Blue-Haired Lawyer has ignored me reverting here potentially controversial changes as I said we should wait for WP:IECOLL to finish. The page said Ireland and the editor has changed this to say Republic of Ireland. I reverted this a couple times over the past few days, thinking that it was standard practice to wait for this to be over until making changes. He/She continues to revert and I'm not sure what to do? Does this process have any affect on what the articles are saying now? Were my reverts justified or is he/she perfectly entitled to change Ireland to Republic of Ireland at this stage?MusicInTheHouse (talk) 11:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

All editors are encouraged to pledge to no more than 1RR per day . I believe articles should stay at their current titles till IECOLL has made a decision ,there is no point in having move/terminology discussions all over the place Gnevin (talk) 12:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

This is not a title though, this is prose in an introduction. Blue-Haired Lawyer has broken 1RR, I have not but I'm not sure what to do in order to keep the article at its stable version.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 12:36, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Although I am sympathetic MusicInTheHouse, I think BHG is "perfectly entitled to change Ireland to Republic of Ireland at this stage" etc at this stage. This Project process does not even have an agreed timetable at the moment. It is hard therefore to expect Users to buy into this process - After all, who knows how long this will go on? It would not be realistic to expect Users to end "editing as usual" in the (indefinite?) interim. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 06:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Resignation

In the last two weeks, I have been trying to take a wikibreak. When I saw how many people put their effort here I felt bad about it and came back a couple days ago. But I feel my hands are tied. I had accepted the moderator role because I thought we could use the kind of reason based mediation that I’ve done successfully in the past. When I was unable to convince the community of the benefits of that approach, I readily accepted a different plan. I now realize that that was a mistake, because that plan fundamentally differs from my approach and my values, and I feel like a round peg in a square hole here. I therefore believe it is best if I hand in my resignation as moderator here. — Sebastian 18:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Why with all the drama? You're not required to do much. You just have to help make a decision on what to do after all the statements have been made. How is resigning going to help anyone here? I think you should put a stroke through your above post and get back moderating.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 18:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

What is going on here? I don't remember any approach being rejected let alone anything "reason based". Also I think its very difficult when you commit to a process to back out at this stage without first finding a substitute. --Snowded (talk) 18:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I know it is difficult to back out, and I value commitment - that's why I kept hanging on. But please remember that this is a volunteer outfit. I have put other things in my life aside for this, Misplaced Pages has become an addiction, and I need to reclaim my time.

By the other approach, I meant what I called "reasonable consensus" here and in other places. I do admit though, that I never presented a consistent plan for that. I wanted us to build up the plan from basic agreements. I got agreement on Graham's pyramid, which made it onto the main page, but it has no relation to the current plan. In fact, the current plan, by explicitly ruling out rebuttals, diametrically contradicts the very aim of the pyramid of refutation. I went along with that because I thought there was a bigger plan, but I see now that that was a mistake. To answer MusicInTheHouse's statement "You just have to help make a decision on what to do after all the statements have been made". If there is consensus that all that's needed is a team of unbiased arbitrators to pick and choose from among the presented proposals, then I will be happy to cast my vote; but I have to get used to this idea; it's not what I had thought was required of me, and it doesn't square well with my preconceived notion of what's fair. Also, I want to add that I have put in much more time than MusicInTheHouse seems to think. Work others do always seems little. — Sebastian 19:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I volunteer for many things, I hope I don't back out without finding a substitute. I think the statements of fact is going well, but what is now needed is for that to be summarised to identify issues and confrontations (that needs a small independent team but critically needs someone with knowledge of the politics of this) and present them for creation of evidence tables and then move to make decisions. That small team could be appointed representatives of the different parties (active editors) or outsiders. Overall there has been so much drift here and what is really needed is leadership. Given Arncom's knowledge of Irish issues (the Troubles and elsewhere) I think we all assumed they had appointed someone who would have been comfortable with the (shall we say) difficult environment here. From what you have said above and elsewhere is was not fair to ask you to do it. In your shoes I would ask one of Arbcom members who knows about Irish issues to drive the next stage --Snowded (talk) 19:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, maybe then you're smarter than me and you simply don't volunteer for commitments without knowing how long they would take, or for jobs that are so hard to sell, that finding volunteers itself is a full-time job. You said it was unfair that I was asked, but I think it's hard to find people that are more qualified for this job. One reason that this job was so hard to sell is that it is very restrictive in the conditions about applicants: Candidates have to be administrators to begin with; which is not a practical necessity, since so far I think none of us has ever used any admin privileges. On top of that, canditates have to be interested enough to participate for months, but get rejected when they actually edited Ireland related articles. This is the squaring of the circle!

I share your value that if you make a mistake, it's not simply enough to say "I'm sorry", but there is an obligation to minimize the negative effect. That said, I don't really see a negative effect. I've held all along that we are too many moderators. I think the leadership problem you mention is a direct consequence of that. I have held a leadership role for two years (minus a wikibreak) at WP:SLR, and can tell you first hand that it's hard to lead here. The difference is not that Irish people are more antiauthoritarian or more argumentative than Sri Lankans, or that the disagreement is deeper rooted in the country's or Misplaced Pages's history: The difference that makes leadership here hard is that we are three people, who've never met before, and have to work together for months, towards a backdrop of continuously changing situations, such as the one brought up in the previous section. Nobody would head an army with three equally ranked generals. I asked a professional mediator, who said she'd never have accepted such an assignment.

That said, your idea of asking ArbCom is good; I will do that officially. — Sebastian 00:15, March 19, 2009 (UTC)

Done - no reply so far. — Sebastian 16:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It's understandable to feel that the current approach is a mistake. It has no means to reach a decision. It's slowness is, however, useful because of the cool matter-of-fact nature of the statements. Before, arguments were pilled in on top of each other. We Irish are excellent at rhetoric, the current process pins us down to logic. What is necessary to move it on is dialectic. If we allow free discussion we'll find ourselves back at rhetoric again, so let's keep the current non-rebuttal system, but move on to a rebuttal stage. By this I mean one where those that stated their opposition a current statement statement, state why below it (keeping Graham's pyramid in mind). Then editors can state that the support or oppose the rebuttal, but without engaging in a rebuttal of the rebuttal themselves (in the same way that we don't allow discussion below the statements now).

I know that this is a very slow process, but slow is not necessarily a bad thing. We want a conclusion we all can live with. If it takes time, so be it. I don't see a Wikibreak of two weeks being anything to worry about during that sort of time frame. --78.152.238.198 (talk) 20:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Good points! I'll have to think about that. — Sebastian 00:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

My idea behind the non-rebuttal process was exactly that; to stop the piling up of arguments. Anyone sane trying to deduce consensus from that would go mad. I agree that slow is better then nothing at all. Sebastian, I hope you reconsider. — Edokter • Talk • 20:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I will give it some more thought. If we proceeded with the IP editor's proposal then I can imagine there will be a moment at some point when more moderators are needed. I'd be happy to come back as an assistant moderator to assess the rebuttals (or "refutations", as Graham calls it) - similar to WP:3O. — Sebastian 00:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

The value to this exercise in the contributions from the level-headed User:BrownHairedGirl are immense. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I suggested a long time ago that she be asked to lead and structure the debate and her statements indicate an ability to do that. --Snowded (talk) 14:05, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Moderators - Timetable please?

Can we take it that the Timetable which has been labelled "under discussion" for some time now is agreed? This is a question for the Moderators. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:18, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be a rough consensus the dates are ok. PhilKnight (talk) 21:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with a closing date of 31 March for the taking of statements, but I still have some doubts about it in practice because its unclear what comes thereafter. Setting a closing debate for the rest of the process seems to me completely wrong at this stage, because there is not yet (so far as I can see) a clear statement from the moderators of exactly what further stages are needed to complete the process.

After all this time, I can see little merit in rushing any further stages of this exercise. From all that the moderators have written, it seems that the process they are applying is a somewhat novel combination of various approaches, and I suspect that even they are unclear aboiut where some of the further steps will lead us.

Rather than applying some arbitrarily-chosen deadline as a final cutoff for the whole process, it would be much better for the moderators to now say clearly that there will be no final deadline set at this stage. If this process is going to create the sort of coherently-reasoned answer that the moderators have been seeking, then they will have to be clear that the process will be completed when all necessary stages are complete, however long that takes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:27, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

concur, lets have a deadline for each stage (31st march for statements seems fine), then go step by step. If nothing else its not clear who is running this show! --Snowded (talk) 10:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I too concur. Kittybrewster ☎ 10:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I Concur as well. — Edokter • Talk • 15:06, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Re. "I have no problem with a closing date of 31 March for the taking of statements, but I still have some doubts about it in practice because its unclear what comes thereafter." I will clarify: Statment process closes. Moderators (the three of them, chosen after all, as independent persons) will decide if a consens has been reached. Clearly, no consensus will have been reached (in that regard, see the statements made to date). The 3 Moderators will then have a full month to consider the statements that have been made and make their own deliberations. Then they make their decision on or before 1 May 2009. What is unclear about any of this? Its a very simple process. Re being against "applying some arbitrarily-chosen deadline as a final cutoff". The real deadline (1 May) is certainly arbitrary but without it this "process" could needlessly carry on forever. Indeed, those attacking these not very ambitious deadlines are not even suggesting alternative deadlines....just let the process "run" and "run". The Moderators (3 persons) have to make a decision. There is no reason why a full month after statements have closed is not enough time. Without a deadline, the process has no credibility. Moderators please agree your position on the exact deadlines and set them out here so we can move on. Redking7 (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

From what I can see the position among the Moderators is:

All support the 31 March for end of statemnts.
Support 1 May final deadline - PhilKnight;
Against setting a final deadline - Edtoker;

Sebastian - You are the last Moderator whose position I am not sure of. You appear to have the casting vote. Are you with PhilKnight or Edtoker? Regards. Redking7 (talk) 16:14, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I gather Sebastian resigned as moderator. PhilKnight (talk) 21:34, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

unanimity or majority??? Kittybrewster ☎ 16:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

What's the hurry Redking7 (but it's not just you)? After more than 3 years what's another few weeks, or even months if we get a solid solution? Hang loose man. Let the moderators tell us what their timetable is instead of having people pushing all the time. That is a part of the problem in the first place, people always attempting to fix this issue quickly and it never succeeding. Apparently people have forgotten what patience is? ww2censor (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so there's a consensus for the 31st March date, but not for the 1 May final deadline? PhilKnight (talk) 21:34, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed on the 31st of March but i dont think we need to set ourself a limit of one month after that to resolve everything, it puts more pressure on everyone. I think what happens after the statement deadline passes is more important than setting a deadline to complete everything by. Have the mods agreed what will happen after the statements are all in because i dont understand or know what happens next. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed (to PhilKnight). Also RedKing7's statement does not reflect the process as I understood it so some clarification would be appreciated. --Snowded (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The only problem for me setting a deadline for May 1 is not knowing the next step in the process. We need to think about the next step. Once we know what to do, then a deadline is fine. — Edokter • Talk • 13:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Edokter/PhilKnight - I am disappointed. A credible process has deadlines. Frankly, not having them is makes the process a joke and no one has given good reasons why there should not be a straightforward timetable. Also you mention that "we" - need to figure out the next steps etc in the process. My suggestion is this - you and PhilKnight need to decide things - not we. This is essentially the Three Wise Men procedure (though we are down a man at the moment - I've nominated myself below!). The three Moderators assess the statements and make the decisions. As always, my simple practical suggestions (like having a deadline and Moderators taking leadership) will presumably not make me popular but there you go. Keep in mind also that one Camp in this debate is very happy for no decision to issue - after all they want the status quo to remain - so appeals for "more time" (as if it was needed) should not be seen as necessarily impartial contributions. Only those who want change, like me, want a decision. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 20:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Redking7, I dislike the assumption of bad faith in that comment: I don't see anyone here arguing that there should not be a decision. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that a) some editors want no decision to be made, and b) that the moderators will choose a particular course of action for the next stage. I personally do want to retain most of the status quo, but I also want a clear decision from this process to settle the issue and produce a workable and stable solution. What I don't want is a decision rushed against an arbitrary deadline, because that runs the risk of producing an outcome which lacks the clear basis for a workable and stable solution. I think it's a great pity that you have repeatedly chosen to cast this process as some sort of ruse to buy time.

As to the "moderators take statements then make a decision", I have not seen such a process agreed by the moderators, who have discussed other options. I dislike the way that you appear to be to be trying to railroad the moderators into that option, because it seems to be only one of the possibilities at play. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:30, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not think that I have "repeatedly chosen to cast this process as some sort of ruse to buy time" etc. I think that is unfair. I think my notes on this page have asked fair and probing questions that have pointed out where the Moderators are failing to give leadership right now. I have encouraged them to take the lead and make decisions - about things like a timetable - things that will make this a more credible process. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Third moderator

I formally propose that User:BrownHairedGirl become the third moderator in place of Sebastian. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

She has my Okie Dokie. GoodDay (talk) 14:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I oppose User:BrownHairedGirl being chosen as a moderator. A moderator, as I understand it, is supposed to be as non-partisan and independent as possible. Clearly BHG holds (as she is entitled to) clear and strong "partisan" views on the substantive issues - so I do not think she fits the criteria for being chosen as a Moderator on this topic. If "partisan" candidates are being welcomed, then I nominate myself (though I admit, like BGHG, I am not impartial nor independent). I suggest there must be a procedure in place somewhere for picking independent moderators. Edokter and Regards. Redking7 (talk) 20:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I oppose, don't know anything about BrownHairedGirl but I saw she has made a statement on this process, I think best to try to have somebody that has not been involved incase that is used as an arugment against the final outcome of this process. --T*85 (talk) 00:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm very flattered to have been nominated, but as others have noted, I do have strong views on the substantive issues. So I think that I would not be a good choice as moderator, and that it would be best for the moderator to be someone from outside these islands.

AIUI, the moderators were appointed by ArbCom. So shouldn't the task of appointing a replacement for Sebastian be entrusted to ArbCom? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

For clarity, I withdraw my candidacy as well and agree that only genuinely independent persons should be picked as Moderators. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 06:32, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

For further clarity, who is the third moderator? Is Sebastian still on board? If not, may we have a Lord High Substitute? Kittybrewster ☎ 11:53, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm not a moderator anymore. After some people encouraged me to reconsider above, I wrote that I would do so; but when another moderator took me off the list, it made my decision easy. — Sebastian 16:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Then I think the next thing is to appoint a third moderator. Kittybrewster ☎ 21:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

What happens after the statements

Just curious what happens after the statements? I had been following the process up until a few weeks ago, what I am confused about is what happens between March 31st & May 1st? I have looked at the statements and it appears people for the most part agree that "Ireland" is disambigious but many of these statements are open to interpreation. How is the process going to come to an end? How are you going to measure the votes of the statements when there appears to be no simple way of doing that? --T*85 (talk) 04:13, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Re "Just curious what happens after the statements?" - Normal procedure, should as I understand it, apply - The 3 Moderators take some time (I suggested a month but the timetable was rejected) to make a decision. No further involvement is required by non-Moderators after 31 March - we should just wait for the 3 moderators' response. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 06:30, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

How is that 'normal'? I have to say that that was not clear to me before the process started. In fact, non of the process has been very clear to me. Looking back at ArbCom, the suggestion was that the moderators role was to facilitate the decision making rather than to make the decision themselves. Fmph (talk) 12:35, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I dont understand what happens after all the statements are in but it would be nice to know. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, then we all make statements about what should happen next. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes then we can all make statements about everyone elses statements =) BritishWatcher (talk) 11:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

More on IPs

There have now been 5 IP addresses which have in some form participated in this process.

I'm guessing that one, two or three of these are the same editor who's made a statement and who has been around for a while but refuses to register. But what about the other two? — Blue-Haired Lawyer 17:35, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It would be helpful, if a returning un-registered user, would inform us of his/her previous involvement. GoodDay (talk) 18:15, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The IPs that want to be involved but are unprepared to Register should sign all their statements with a name or code just so we know whos who and whos saying what even if its just IP-A or IP-B BritishWatcher (talk) 21:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

This is becoming ridiculous. There is no need for some magic code, because there is already a perfectly straightforward mechanism by which an editor can demonstrate that they are the same person who made earlier comments: register a username. No persuasive arguments have been put forward against registration, so the simplest solution would be ignore comments from IPs. Let's make this simple: if someone wants to participate, they can register a username, and use it; but registration means no voice. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:37, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Those contributions were are made by three different people. 78.152.-.182/163/197 (me) connects with Vodafone, which is a DHCP connection, thus the different IP every time. 86.44.111.162 is Eircom and 78.16.4.12 is BT.

On the other hand there is no way to determine if Blue-Haired Lawyer/GoodDay/BritishWatcher/BrownHairedGirl (or whoever you are/choose to call yourself today) is not one and the same person without performing a CheckUser ... which, and I'm sorry to demystify it, means simply checking if he/they contribute from the same IP range under different usernames. With us honest IP folk, you get that for free every time.

Lose the paranoia and concentrate on contributions not contributors. --78.152.249.17 (talk) 00:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

So, the IPs concerned are dynamically allocated by a mobile telecoms company, which means they could be used by anyone passing through a given area. That means there is no way of knowing whether the edits from that IP pool even come from people resident in or staying in the area, so the contributions history of those IPs tells us little. By contrast, the checkuser process is a lot more sophisticated than you give it credit for ... and if you have any reason to believe that Blue-Haired Lawyer/GoodDay/BritishWatcher/BrownHairedGirl are one and the same person, then please hop along to checkuser and lodge your request now. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

My problem isnt that they may be the same person using different IPs on purpose, its that we dont know for sure whos who. The 86.44 is clearly a different person but 78.16.4.12 and 78.152. are not that much different and could have been considered the same person, we shouldnt have to do whois check ups to find out its a different person. So where is the harm in IPs who want to contribute and are unprepared to register, to just include a code at the end of their comments, like IP-A for 78.152, IP-B for 78.16 and IP-C for the 86.44 guy. That way we all know whos who and their past contributions without having to check up on all the different IPs and without those IPs having to register an account. I dont mind them not registering, but each IP contributor needs a nickname or code so we know whos who. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

What you are prposing is effectively that the IP editors choose a name, but don't register it. What's the point in that? Anyone can use that name, and because it's unregistered there is no way of checking who is using it.

We have a straightforward and simple registration system which takes care of all this. Why indulge those who choose not to use it? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:32, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Beside which, it seems the anonIPs wish to remain anonymous but fail to realise that the majority of registered users still remain anonymous by choosing a username that does not identify them personally. So we should ignore all non-registered posts here for the reason mentioned above by BHG and others because the very reason used to remain anonymous is still preserved by registration. ww2censor (talk) 14:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Until the rules are changed and registration is mandatory contributions from ip's should not be ignored. Be honest everyone, how many of you contributed to Misplaced Pages before actually registering a user name? Jack forbes (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I made a few contributions before registering, but as soon as I realised I wanted to get more involved and wanted to be able to join in wider discussions, I registered a username. That's all that's being asked here: the anon IP is quite entitled to edit as an anon, but anon IPs are routinely discounted in debates on deletion or policy, because of the risk of vote-stacking and/or sockpuppetry. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that having a username makes for an easier time on wiki for everyone involved, but until the rules are changed it has to be lived with. The problem as I see it is, if for example there is a straw poll or discussion that could decide consensus and a number of ip's are involved they would be ignored for the reasons already given. What is to stop a number of these ip's from taking it further and objecting to this, because as far as I know there is no rule to say an ip's opinion is any less important than a registered users. Jack forbes (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Its not so much about the importance of editors opinions, more the old dictum of 'Vote early and vote often'. Oh dear, I've gone and used the V word. RashersTierney (talk) 16:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) There's one thing, that's certain. The IP(s) will never create an account & sign in. GoodDay (talk) 16:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with BrownHairedGirl that this is becoming ridiculous. Misplaced Pages is set up to allow IP editors for a reason. If you don't like it, go to Citizendium. (This paranoia is similar to the sock puppet scare.) — Sebastian 16:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't like it, but I accept it. I know the IPs-in-question, will never register-in. GoodDay (talk) 17:02, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Not trying to drag this out because it is not ridiculous. The issue is not whether anonIPs should be have to register or not; they don't have to and that is unlikely to change. The issue is whether we can trust the statements made by similar (or even completely different) anonIPs are made by different people or by the same people because we know that registered users statements are from distinctly different individuals. We don't know if one or more anonIPs are trying to sway the opinions here by making multiple statements; maybe that is the case, maybe not. If we could somehow verify each anonIP statement comes from different individuals there would be no problem. Until then anonIP statements are a problem that I think should to be addressed in some way. What that way is I don't know but forum shopping may indeed be going on here. Besides discounting the statements of anonIPs I don't know of any verifiable solution. ww2censor (talk) 17:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

What I object to, isn't that there are IP participating in discussions, or even making statements, but rather that two IPs: 78.16.4.12 and 86.44.111.162, seem to have sprung into life solely for the purposes of voting. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 17:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Reading the above replies, I realize I came across the wrong way. I didn't mean to criticize anyone here in particular. I believe the sock scare is a collective hysteria; once a critical point is reached it's hard for any single editor to swim against the current. I believe what should count is not who says something - which would be rather futile, given that everyone can hide behind any user name they choose anyway - but what people say. Why make our life complicated? Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, so I decided to refer to any IP editor simply as "an IP editor". — Sebastian 18:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Life gets complicated when some IPs are very similar. obviously it doesnt matter when we see one with an 84. IP and one with a 78. IP, but if we have two editors that have 78. IPs it would be nice if we could tell them apart for sure. Its not a case of thinking either of them are lying but it would just be easier if we always knew for sure which were which. Until the IP commented, i thought we had just two IPs one with the 78 and one with the 84, i didnt know there were two different IPs starting with 78.

It would also help if IPs would be listed on the members list. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:53, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

"Life gets complicated"? It's not that you're a hapless victim, like someone struggling to survive the Great Famine! It's your own choice. IP editors only make your life complicated if you choose to differentiate them. As I said, you can make it easier, if you want to. — Sebastian 21:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I seem to recall that when a proposal for mandatory registration was brought up it was rejected. and not for the first time. Not many users actually took part in the discussion I saw, but then if it was advertised throughout[REDACTED] that the debate was taking place it would probably be seen as forum shopping. Jack forbes (talk) 19:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

All this talk about registration not be compulsory (and sod-off-to-Citizendum-if-you-don't-like-it) is a red herring. Anon IPs can edit, which AFAIK has always been the case, and it will continue to be the case unless a decision is made to change things. (Although anons are no longer allowed to create new articles)

But the reason this is a red herring, is that we are not discussing here the editing of articles. This is a decision-making process affecting a huge number of articles, and it seems to me very surprising that we are not following the rules of XfD debates, where IPs tend to be ignored, or of Arbcom elections, where IP contributions are struck out altogether.

Can the moderators please explain why they want this process to be be more open to IPs than an XfD debate? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Please note that I'm not a moderator anymore; my word has no more weight than yours, or probably less, since I have not been active in Ireland related articles. I take "edit" to mean any action where you click the "edit" button, unless otherwise specified. One notable exception is voting, since it would create problems with counting the same person twice. I don't see such a fundamental problem in the case of proposing a solution or making a statement. That said, there are some inconveniences, as I pointed out earlier, such as having to refer to a statement with an awkward name such as "Statement by 78.152.253.163". That could be overcome by renaming statements to names that are independent of the proposing account. That would be a good idea, anyway, since it would help people focus on the proposal, not on the person. — Sebastian 21:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The red herring is discussing whether IPs should contribute or not. This purpose of the discussion on this page is supposed to be to reach a decision on where to located two articles. (Another red herring is to say that that would affect "a huge number of articles" because those issues are covered by the long-standing consensus agreed over at the WP:IMOS. That consensus is beyond reproach.) Please take it to User:Jimbo Wales if you have a problem with this being "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" (as opposed to "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit so long as they sign up").

The basic principle that is being missed is that we are not voting. RashersTierney mentioned above that he fears that IP contributors (by benefit of DHCP and other technologies) can "Vote early and vote often". That might be a genuine fear ... if we were voting! We are discussing (the hint is in the text on the tab above). There is nothing to fear from "Discuss early and discuss often".

BrownHairedGirl, you mention areas where IP !votes are ignored. You mention Arbcom elections. There, IP contributions are ignored. IPs are ignored in Arbcom elections (and RfA elections) because - guess what - they are elections ... votes ... democracy ... where the fear of "vote early and vote often" is real and justified. IP !votes are routinely ignored in XfDs also because routine practice is for closing admins, without knowledge of the subject matter, to simply look to democracy when they make their decision.

If it is democracy you are after then the matter being discussed on this page has been voted on time and time before. Time and time before the result of those votes has been to keep the status quo. This page exists because some editors are unhappy with the result of the democratic decision. We are past democracy. We are not voting. We are discussing. If you have issue with a statement that was made please comment on it here. If you have issue with who made as statement (or that you don't know who made a statement), take it to User:Jimbo Wales because it doesn't belong on this page.

What might help, is if the moderators could point to 'what happens next'? If that is made clear then it will be visible to those editors with concerns that "vote early and vote often" is a non-concern. (the IP that has has posted here often before ) --89.101.215.249 (talk) 19:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

IP, if you bothered to read what I wrote, this isn't about IPs being able to edit wikipedia. This is about IPs participating in a dispute-resolution process where a) people are asked to support or endorse statements, and b) everyone else has been asked to sign up to sign up to a few simple commitments relating to conduct. If an editor is not prepared to adopt a stable and unique identity for the purpose of this process, then both these crucila points are undermined. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed it is stupid and unproductive that IP editors do not have to sign the members list. Although i do agree with IP89 about finding out what happens after the statements are complete would be useful. BritishWatcher (talk) 07:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Nothing is undermined so long as contributors comment on the contribution not the contributor. Whether an editor has an account of not bears no relation to the merits of their contribution or teh value that their perspective can bring to this process. Now, can we please get back on topic? --89.101.215.249 (talk) 18:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

This is the topic for this section of the talk page. We are still waiting to find out what happens next so whilst we do that perhaps we should address the fact that IP editors have not signed the members list? I dont have a problem with IPs contributing as ive said before but they should sign the list so we can atleast check how many there are. Until one of ur previous comments i thought there was just two IPs but apparently theres 3. Those 3 should atleast sign the members list so random IPs dont pop along weeks down the line. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"For this section of the talk page" ... the question is should it be on this talk page? Regarding membership of the project, ] but got no adequate response. In any case, participation in this process is no more restricted to "members" of the Ireland Collaboration project than it is to contributors with an account. --89.101.215.249 (talk) 18:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

You did get an adequate response; it contained a pertinent question which you chose not to answer.

Back to the topic, I completely agree with your point that people should focus on content, instead of the user name. As I said before, the inconveniences can be dealt with. That said, you could more easily resolve all inconveniences yourself by signing up. It is a reasonable desire of any WikiProject, or, for that matter, most social organizations, to be able to address its members with an understandable name. By insisting on having the benefits of membership without accommodating to a reasonable request, you are not just making a point, you are making a WP:POINT. — Sebastian 05:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

What now?

Statements have closed, but nobody seems to be clear about what is happening next.

Please could the moderators explain what their intentions/plans/idea/whatever are to move this process on towards a conclusion?

There may not be a complete plan in place, but it would help enormously if the moderators could give some hint about where this is all going. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Agreed. I made a suggestion in this regard before. From what I can see it is the only suggestion as to what to do next. --89.101.215.249 (talk) 18:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Clearly some people dont even think the statement process has closed yet. :\ BritishWatcher (talk) 20:49, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Only one person, AFAICS. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

No the deadline has passed. There was clear consensus for this; why the sudden issue with it? Rules are rules you had plenty of time to do another statement.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 21:04, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I thought it had passed and i thought everyone agreed it had passed until the recent added statements. Looking back at the actual talk page and the project page it was never officially announced. The project page simply says currently being discussed so perhaps the statement process isnt closed?

If its not then im going to be adding a statement - This process is a complete mess BritishWatcher (talk) 21:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

MusicInTheHouse, you just reverted the addition to the index page of my statements, without apparently checking their creation dates: the first was clearly within deadline, the other one was 30 seconds over, but per WP:BURO that's no reason to remove it. I have reinstated them. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

PS the "one person" I was referring to above was Domer48 (talk · contribs), who second statement was created 20 hours after the deadline. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Why don't the Moderators "close the discussion" - there was no consensus....so now its time for their decision. Its as simple as that....No mystery...No "next steps"...They simply need to "close the discussion"....It makes a farce of things that there is no timetable for closure. Its not as if there has been any substantive discussion on this page lately....Very few postings were even made this past week...Its simply time for the Moderators to "close the discussion" (i.e. make up their minds on what the result is). Moderataors, your silence is letting us down. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:12, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

There has been no discussion. Just statements. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I was away for the day, and also involved in a dispute of my own. Now that we have the statements, I'm going to call the mods into the panel and discuss what happens next. Please stand by. — Edokter • Talk • 22:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I just made two further statements after the deadline (though I didn't realise that when I made them, of course). A moderator can feel free to remove them, if they like, I will not protest. Rockpocket 06:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Two points: (1) editors can still endorse/oppose statements or remove their endorsements/opposition; (2) there are some statements with very high or unanimous levels of endorsement. We need to take those forward. DrKiernan (talk) 08:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

When there is no sign of any decision having been made on what the next steps of the process should involve, let alone of it having actually started, I see no useful purpose in disallowing the post-deadline statements by Domer48 and Rockpocket. This is not a bureaucracy, and if either of the statements have something to add to next steps, it would be foolish to exclude them. Personally, I don't think that they add anything useful, but I'm sure that many would feel the same way about some of the statements made before the deadline (maybe including mine?), and the purpose of the statement process was put evidence on the table to allow it to be assessed. If the evidence added since the deadline does have relevance, how does it help the process to exclude it? And if it's not relevant, what harm does it do?

We'll have to have a cutoff eventually. But in the absence of any other activity from the moderators, I don't see how a rigid adherence to this deadline would help anything. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. We also need a third moderator. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The purpose of this process, as I understood it, was the address the three individual problems that need to be resolved. I have consistently made the point that an evidence based process is doomed to failure. There has been mountains of evidence offered over the preceding years, but how much value one puts on any given line of evidence vs another is entirely arbitrary, and varies greatly between individuals with different perspectives. We all know what the evidence is, we simply disagree on how much it matters in the face of opposing evidence. Therefore I offered a rational, pragmatic solution based upon the premise that a compromise solution that is acceptable to almost everyone, but favorite to hardly anyone, is the only solution that can ever reach a stable consensus. One doesn't need evidence to reach that conclusion, a simple appreciation of the positions of the opposing camps is sufficient. Rockpocket 19:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

A space for explaining the elephant in the room

Having read all of the statements, and the discussion thereof both the statement talkpages and on user talkpages, I am still left puzzled.

One of the things that is very clear from this process (as well as from previous discussions) is that many editors feel very strongly that calling the state the "Republic of Ireland" is a terrible and offensive thing. Personally, I share that outrage when the state is called "Southern Ireland", but I don't share it when it is called the "Republic of Ireland" for disambiguation purposes, and the gap between the different personal reactions to these names underlies the strong feelings expressed in many places.

It has been important that this process is evidence-based, but the focus on evidence has prevented any explanation of the passions which this issue arouses. I think that a lot of light could be shed on this process by providing a space for some sort of personal "essays" in which editors could express in whatever way they like their own feelings on the subject, and/or their own understanding of why passions run so high.

At the moment, I feel that the absence of this material is like the elephant in the room; a central factor which may not be part of the problem-solving process, but which when unacknowledged weighs down on everything else. It seems to me that a lot of the discussion would make much more sense if editors were able to express some of these passions. Some of the material so far appears to me to be a rational expression of deeply-held views whose basis may not be so clear, and this has led in many places to speculation about the motives of other participants in this process (e.g. here).

It seems to me that rather than having this sort of speculation happening in corners, it would be much better to provide some space where editors could express their own personal feelings about the issues involved. My suggestion is that this should be a statement-only process, with support or oppose section, to serve purely as a place for editors to express their own views on these issues whether, those are based on evidence or on gut reactions. I think that if this turned into a debate or discussion, it could be destructive, with labels exchanged for pejorative purposes ("partitionist", "unionist, "imperialist", "nationalist" or whatever), so it might be best to ban discussion on the talk pages of any such statements. what I am suggesting is that editors should be able to explain their own feelings, not attack those of anyone else.

I am aware that this suggestion risks personalising the process, but so far as I can see that has sadly happened long ago, which is partly why we are in this mess. :(

None of the speculation I have read about about the motives for supporting the use of "Republic of Ireland" comes remotely close to the Tone or substance of my actual views, and I for one would much prefer to be able to put my cards on the table than to watch others speculating. Similarly, I would welcome some explanation of why passions run high amongst editors who take a different view to me.

I have drafted something myself, but will not post it unless this idea (or some variant of it) is approved. May I ask the moderators to consider this idea? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:54, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Constructive proposal. I agree. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmmmmm i thought that is what most of the current statements were anyway. It was basically people expressing their views and people agreeing or disagreeing with them. There was very little "evidence" provided in the process most of which has already been done in the run up to gettin ARBOM to hear the case. I do not think another statement process is a good idea because at the end of the day you will end up with the same people voting for the same points of view as they did before, its just delaying matters and creating more work for after the statements close.

I have no idea how we move forward now which is why that should of been agreed before the statement process was opened in the first place. Sadly the only way this matter was going to be resolved in my opinion was a vote allowing people to pick 2 options or rank all choices in order. This would of removed the two positions that some people feel strongly against and resulted in a reasonable compromise to both sides. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I was not suggesting any sort of vote on these statements -- quote the contrary, I think it would be a very bad idea. Nor do I think that anything else need be dependant on this exercise, so it needn't hold anything up. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I know u were not suggestion a vote but i think thats the only way this matter is going to be resolved unless the Mods simply pick which option they think is best. Seeing a full statement on peoples views would be interesting i just dont think its going to make the result come any quicker or make it any easier. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)